A Pestilent Cleric (Is this too cruel to my players?)

[GreenCatCo]

I was reading through the spell compendium while prepping for a 3.5 game and came across the Pestilence Domain for clerics, whose domain ability grants immunity to disease while retaining the ability to carry disease as well as the contagion spell as both a class and domain spell...

A case could be made that after about a week of spending domain slots (or a pair of days of burning all level 3 spell slots) a cleric with the pestilence domain could conceivably be carrying every single disease listed under contagion's description.

My question to you is: Is this too mean to my players? To have them fight an NPC that will force them all to roll about a half dozen saving throws vs. disease a day later?

Should I nerf the cleric and force them to spend their spell slots daily in order to become typhoid mary?
Should I make it blisteringly obvious in the description that this person is exceedingly sick even though they aren't actually suffering penalties? (Bursting boils weeping green slime, blood leaking from tear ducts, periodic muscle spasms, etc.)
Should I force the cleric to actively spend actions attempting to expose the PCs to their ailments? How virulent should I make the diseases?

As players (or DMs with experience throwing diseases at their PCs) what would you think about an NPC whose very presence is so noxious it causes plague? Maybe I should raise the CR and award bonus exp?

Thoughts and comments appreciated greatly

[Inevitability]

What level are the players?

If the players are level 5, they should have access to Remove Disease themselves. At the very least, they'll be wealthy enough to make a cleric cure them.

[Flickerdart]

Read how the diseases spread - the PCs won't get sick just by being in the same room as the guy. There are spells that create diseases which are as infectious as you want them to be, but contagion isn't it.

Blinding sickness: Spreads in water. Can't infect the PCs with this unless they drink something from the cleric.
Cackle fever: Technically, contagion is the only way (at least in Core) to get this disease.
Filth fever: Rats and otyughs spread it by bite, and getting injured while in dirty surroundings causes it. So fighting with the cleric should work if he lands a hit on a PC.
Mindfire: Again, can only get it from contagion.
Red ache: Ditto.
The shakes: Ditto.
Slimy doom: Ditto.

If you want your guy to be contagious just by running by the PCs, you can't do that with 3rd level spells. You need pestilence (level 7), or epidemic (level 9). And even those have caveats (such as a decreasing DC or a short period of contagiousness). So yeah - you're gonna need 8-12 more levels on that cleric before you can actually do what you want to do.

[Aldrakan]

That said, while Contagion isn't a good option, they could go looking for some diseases that are more easily transmissible. Also as most diseases have a significant period before they start to take effect or the aforementioned transmission difficulties, someone interested in spreading disease is often better served by subterfuge unless their interest is just is making their killer feel bad. On a related note, I'm going to leave this here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474473-Archetype-Plaguelord-(Antipaladin)

[ATHATH]

Wait!

I recently read a Dragon Magazine that had spells that were for monsters, and one of them was a spell that allowed you to spread all of the diseases you have with everyone in a cone. I'll try to find it- just know that your concept is not doomed yet.

[Caedes]

I am more a fan of the Cancer mage.

http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/cancer-mage/index.html

As far as it being unfair to the players. That depends on their level. If they have access to remove disease. All good. If they do not...

I have personally used such an N.P.C in a Homebrew that had a 4-Horseman of the apocalypse thing going. It was a lot of fun and the trail of disease left behind by this "horseman" was actually a clever trail of crumbs that lead to an even better trap.

But that is just me.

[Telonius]

I was reading through the spell compendium while prepping for a 3.5 game and came across the Pestilence Domain for clerics, whose domain ability grants immunity to disease while retaining the ability to carry disease as well as the contagion spell as both a class and domain spell...

A case could be made that after about a week of spending domain slots (or a pair of days of burning all level 3 spell slots) a cleric with the pestilence domain could conceivably be carrying every single disease listed under contagion's description... As players (or DMs with experience throwing diseases at their PCs) what would you think about an NPC whose very presence is so noxious it causes plague? Maybe I should raise the CR and award bonus exp?

Thoughts and comments appreciated greatly

Book of Vile Darkness had the "Cancer Mage" prestige class that did this. No Cleric casting though. It was one of the more broken PrCs in 3.0, especially once Festering Anger came into the picture. Festering Anger gives bonuses to Strength for every day you've had it, usually at a cost of 1d3 Con damage. But since Cancer Mages are immune to the negative effects of disease, you can see where that goes. (Fortunately the Pestilence domain avoids this problem by giving them flat-out immunity to disease).

[ATHATH]

I think it's in Dragon 304.

The spell can also turn Contagion into a cone without infecting yourself as well.

[icefractal]

Should I make it blisteringly obvious in the description that this person is exceedingly sick even though they aren't actually suffering penalties? (Bursting boils weeping green slime, blood leaking from tear ducts, periodic muscle spasms, etc.)This one, probably. A bunch of diseases isn't an unreasonable threat at 5th level (well, maybe don't put too many really nasty ones like Mummy Rot), but if it happens by surprise it will at best be not very dramatic, and potentially feel unfair.

Whereas by having the threat apparent, it'll add a new level of tension into the fight (especially going into melee with him), and the players will probably consider themselves lucky if they get away with only a few diseases. For maximum tension there, have him using anti-ranged defenses like Entropic Shield, Obscuring Mist, Wind Wall, etc, so that the most effective way to defeat him is getting into disease range melee.

[Calimehter]

Isn't there also a low level spell that allows you to perform melee attacks at range? Would this be enough to transmit some diseases or count as 'exposure'?

I'm away from my books for a bit or I would check out the names/rules myself, but it might be worth looking into. Even if the RAW is a bit off, RAI might get you covered depending on the spell description. . .

[Quertus]

Read how the diseases spread - the PCs won't get sick just by being in the same room as the guy. There are spells that create diseases which are as infectious as you want them to be, but contagion isn't it.

Blinding sickness: Spreads in water. Can't infect the PCs with this unless they drink something from the cleric.
Cackle fever: Technically, contagion is the only way (at least in Core) to get this disease.
Filth fever: Rats and otyughs spread it by bite, and getting injured while in dirty surroundings causes it. So fighting with the cleric should work if he lands a hit on a PC.
Mindfire: Again, can only get it from contagion.
Red ache: Ditto.
The shakes: Ditto.
Slimy doom: Ditto.

If you want your guy to be contagious just by running by the PCs, you can't do that with 3rd level spells. You need pestilence (level 7), or epidemic (level 9). And even those have caveats (such as a decreasing DC or a short period of contagiousness). So yeah - you're gonna need 8-12 more levels on that cleric before you can actually do what you want to do.

According to 3.5 DMG p292, Cackle fever is inhaled, so all PCs need to save vs that one. Same with mind fire. On the other hand, demon fever, devil chills, filth fever, and red ache are all injury, so if he coats his weapons with his own blood / puss / secretions, then yeah, the PCs he damages should have to save.

Is having the cleric able to infect ask the PCs fair? Absolutely. Sort of.

It's fair if you have the cleric check to overcome the diseases as normal, and require him to expend resources to keep reinfecting himself. Heck, you could even add diseases to him, while hinting to the PCs what they are up against, by having him collect and keep captives which are infected with diseases he can't create. He cures them of one disease (or they successfully resist it)... then he moves them to a new cell filled with carriers of a different disease.

It's more fun if the party doesn't have a cleric to just cure the diseases. It's an interesting moral dilemma if they have to choose between curing themselves or curing hostages, or if they have to choose between fighting off the diseases themselves, or potentially infecting the town in order to get cured.

There's also the issue of cross species contamination. In D&D, I believe almost all diseases affect all species. So the "hostages" could well be a bunch of kennels of dogs (which he might release on the party, manually or by traps), or some snuggly, sniffing kittens (which the party might pick up and cuddle, thus becoming infected before they ever see the cleric). Note that the little kittens' claws, even if they don't do HP damage, are enough to spread the injury diseases. This is where I would be particularly evil, and not draw attention to that fact - just say that kittens that the party pick up are happy, purring and kneading. The next day, have everyone who had a kitten kneading on them make a fort save.

Any animals that died, the cleric might have animated. Go zombie dogs and skeletal kittens!

[Spore]

I wouldn't go for 6 different diseases. But you could combine two diseases who have synergistic effects. Both target Con, one is subtle in its symptoms, the other more obvious so the PCs think they're only infected once. Add in a Spellstoring Weapon with a special curse that keeps the disease on the target even if it is cured only to break out again, and infect the whole group again.

Poison and disease are close together in the minds of people so you could make an enemy who uses toxins as well. Mix and match the effects. Target Con and Will (Curse to lower saves -4) with the occasional disease bomb thrown in (Reflex).

[Inevitability]

Isn't there also a low level spell that allows you to perform melee attacks at range? Would this be enough to transmit some diseases or count as 'exposure'?

I'm away from my books for a bit or I would check out the names/rules myself, but it might be worth looking into. Even if the RAW is a bit off, RAI might get you covered depending on the spell description. . .

I think you are referring to Blood Wind, from the Spell Compendium.

[Calimehter]

I think you are referring to Blood Wind, from the Spell Compendium.

Yep, that is the one. After getting back home and reviewing it, it seems like it would fit the bill for being able to inflict touch/wound diseases at range. I can't say as I can add any more to the RAW discussions already detailed above, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that RAI/DM rulings on this one would be about as well accepted as "drown healing doesn't work in my campaigns" even if RAW had some slight ambiguity.

:)

[GreenCatCo]

Wow, thank you all for a lot of good (evil?) ideas.

To answer some questions:

The PCs are level 4.5, almost 5 (depending on side quests they might be 5 by the time this rolls up) so no access to remove disease yet, and if enough are infected (or they don't cure before onset) they might still suffer a bit.
Caveat, many of the PCs have taken dips in martial classes and have fairly good fort saves so they might still be ok.

In terms of infection vectors I think I'll try to limit it to whomever is hit with his blood crusted morningstar, those hit with blood wind, anyone who spends appreciable time near/with him or his corpse, anyone who grapples with him (bloody spiked chainmail). Unless they blow him up (still a possibility) I don't think making them roll vs. inhaled diseases just for being in the same room is fair.

Blood wind seems fairly perfect for this too, with a blood coated spiked gauntlet as the base unarmed attack. Although I may limit this to 1 random disease per strike to avoid them crying foul (yay more tables to make).

I'm still whittling down what to infect them with, but I've decided to remove cackle fever, just on the odd chance it hits the healer and removes their ability to remove disease.

Lastly I've decided to include the presence of other NPCs (friendlies) as indicators of his illnesses, presumably captives all suffering from a variety of maladies.

Thanks to everybody, now to hope that the party doesn't befriend him and sic him on other NPCs...

[ShurikVch]

Another spell:

Plague Cloud
Necromancy [War]
Level: Clr 4, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40ft. /level)
Effect: 100-ft.-radius cloud 20 ft. high
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 round/level) (see text)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Dragon Magazine #: 309 (War Spells – Unleash Arcane Armageddon)

You create a sickly gray cloud that is heavier than air and laden with disease.Everyone inside the cloud who fail their saves, will be immediately affected by disease from Contagion list (caster's choice), no incubation period
Note: This spell requires the War Magic Study feat to acquire and cast.
Material Component: 3,000 gp worth of amber that has been crushed to a fine powder, mixed with dried otyugh blood, and sealed inside a small flask.