Twin Spell vs Quicken Spell

[Trasilor]

I am playing a blaster type sorcerer (Dragon Heritage - Fire). We have a large group with lots of melee and several other caster (Cleric, 2 Bards).

So, for people who have played sorcerers (or seen them played at their table), which metamagic was more useful to take at 3rd level: Twin Spell or Quicken Spell?

Also, I plan on taking a feat at level 4. Any suggestions?

[MaxWilson]

I am playing a blaster type sorcerer (Dragon Heritage - Fire). We have a large group with lots of melee and several other caster (Cleric, 2 Bards).

So, for people who have played sorcerers (or seen them played at their table), which metamagic was more useful to take at 3rd level: Twin Spell or Quicken Spell?

Also, I plan on taking a feat at level 4. Any suggestions?

Quicken, by far, at least on sorlocks and paladorcs. Airlock: Quickened Armor of Agathys + EB. Paladorc: Quickened Blur + attack + extra attack (grapple). Quickened Haste if you're into that spell, avoids losing action economy like regular Haste. Etc.

Twin lets you break concentration economy in a limited way but is not nearly as useful. For a paladorcs I would recommend Quicken + Extend, to get double healing from Aura of Vitality.

For a pure sorc in a melee party I recommend Quicken + Careful. Next time a melee happens, throw down a Careful Web on the biggest clump of bad guys. Your melee guys will be immune, can wade in with no fear of getting caught. Enemies have to take opportunity attacks to exit the web, or stay in and risk getting restrained every single round. It's a win/win for your melee guys and they will love you for it.

[zylodrizzt]

As far as I've heard twinning is great for buffs and heals where quicken is great for a more versatile action economy. Don't see why not both for an extreme nova round. As for feats elemental adept fire. Also be sure to take bonfire cause then you could always keep your concentration slot used when u have nothing better for it to deny space and to get your barbarian to hold an enemy there.

[Norgrim Malgus]

I am playing a blaster type sorcerer (Dragon Heritage - Fire). We have a large group with lots of melee and several other caster (Cleric, 2 Bards).

So, for people who have played sorcerers (or seen them played at their table), which metamagic was more useful to take at 3rd level: Twin Spell or Quicken Spell?

Also, I plan on taking a feat at level 4. Any suggestions?

I would lay money on Quicken Spell being the preferred of the two, honestly. I have nothing against Twin Spell, but Quicken only requires 2 Sorcery points no matter what, Twin has a variable cost that can get expensive. The bottom line for me is that I get more mileage with Quicken than I ever would with Twin. As far as feats go, you might consider Spell Sniper as that allows you to ignore all cover except full cover.

[EvilAnagram]

Quickened lets you cast Scorching Ray and Firebolt on the same turn, getting the extra Draconic damage for both.

Twinned lets you cast Firebolt twice and still have a bonus action.

Quickened seems better here.

Of course, if you have single-target buffs or debuffs that require concentration, Twinned can be very powerful. Hold Person is a good example of this.

[Trasilor]

Quicken, by far, at least on sorlocks and paladorcs. Airlock: Quickened Armor of Agathys + EB. Paladorc: Quickened Blur + attack + extra attack (grapple). Quickened Haste if you're into that spell, avoids losing action economy like regular Haste. Etc.

Twin lets you break concentration economy in a limited way but is not nearly as useful. For a paladorcs I would recommend Quicken + Extend, to get double healing from Aura of Vitality.

For a pure sorc in a melee party I recommend Quicken + Careful. Next time a melee happens, throw down a Careful Web on the biggest clump of bad guys. Your melee guys will be immune, can wade in with no fear of getting caught. Enemies have to take opportunity attacks to exit the web, or stay in and risk getting restrained every single round. It's a win/win for your melee guys and they will love you for it.

Well, I don't plan on multi-classing anytime soon nor entering melee combat - it's a bit crowded with the fighter, barbarian, rogue, war-cleric, bard 1 and bard 2. Other than the Cleric's spells, I am really the only ranged combatant and I am the primary energy damage dealer. Given that we started at level 1, sleep has been impressively useful thus far and I will probably keep it for one more level.

However, with only three spell points and very few spells, quicken becomes quite expensive - yes I know you can sacrifice a spell slot to gain spell points. But I can only ever have three spell points in my pool.

I am actually finding that my character tends to be the limiting factor in the adventuring day - sorcerer requires a long rest to regain class abilities (Spells) whereas the other classes regain it with a short rest.

At this point, I am mostly taking spells that deal direct damage. And given that sorcerers have so few spell known, I am being very choosy about my spell selection - spells that are always useful.

Besides, I find that careful spell is designed for casters that work with melee who never adventured with casters before. :smallamused:

[joaber]

I would multiclass for 3 lvls of warlock

EB + 4 spells + 2 lvl 2 spell slots per short rest

if there so many front liners, get the great old one patron, twin dissonant whispers and do lots of damage or tasha's hideous laughter to incapacitate two enemies.

if you have really good 1st level spells to twin, will be better than quick.

[spartan_ah]

Elemental adept for feat

[Joe the Rat]

Hmm... are you over-using your slots? You've got three full casters (cleric, b1, b2) and a barbarian, all of whom run on long rest resources. Or if they are spending all of their time hip-deep in melee, it may just be the case that you need to cut back your output per encounter, and let them magic up the difference (more healing due to longer combats, perhaps), or recognize that they have to pick up the slack later in the day.

Quickened is going to have the most versatility, particularly down the road. And it works on anything you can cast. But for the next few levels, you get 1-2 quicks and you're out of juice. You don't get any more until 10, so this is a good choice.

Twinned gives you a little more flex for your single target effects... such as cantrips (only 1/pop). The downside is this is a short list of applicable spells, and while it starts cheap, it gets pricey, fast. If you have a lot of concentration tricks, this is a good one.

From the sound of it, you probably want to save your sorcery points, for last-fight boosts (when everyone is starting to flag), or to convert for that extra casting.

As zylodrizzt mentioned, Elemental Adept (Fire) is a solid boost to an element themed caster. I'd probably make this my second choice, and spell sniper 3rd. 1st choice is boosting Charisma.

[Trasilor]

Hmm... are you over-using your slots? You've got three full casters (cleric, b1, b2) and a barbarian, all of whom run on long rest resources. Or if they are spending all of their time hip-deep in melee, it may just be the case that you need to cut back your output per encounter, and let them magic up the difference (more healing due to longer combats, perhaps), or recognize that they have to pick up the slack later in the day.

Quickened is going to have the most versatility, particularly down the road. And it works on anything you can cast. But for the next few levels, you get 1-2 quicks and you're out of juice. You don't get any more until 10, so this is a good choice.

Twinned gives you a little more flex for your single target effects... such as cantrips (only 1/pop). The downside is this is a short list of applicable spells, and while it starts cheap, it gets pricey, fast. If you have a lot of concentration tricks, this is a good one.

From the sound of it, you probably want to save your sorcery points, for last-fight boosts (when everyone is starting to flag), or to convert for that extra casting.

As zylodrizzt mentioned, Elemental Adept (Fire) is a solid boost to an element themed caster. I'd probably make this my second choice, and spell sniper 3rd. 1st choice is boosting Charisma.

Originally, I was using my spells too quickly. Next session, I held them in reserve until we almost has a party wipe - better results.

To be fair, the bards were hurting after extended adventuring.

I don't have lots of concentration spells - mostly because of the very few known spells.

Seems to me, levels 3 and 4 - Twin spell is better as it tends to be cheaper (1 or 2 points) whereas levels 5 and 6, quicken spell is better (more options and a fixed cost). If I started at level 5 I probably would have taken quicken spell. Decisions...decisions. :smallconfused:

And yes, I think Elemental Adept will be the feat I will take - I was was worried it was a trap feat (looks good on paper but rarely ever comes into play) .

[Dalebert]

I may have missed it but I'm curious what is the other metamagic you're taking. You could obviously pick both Quicken and Twinned so you must have another planned.

You should always choose your metamagics in conjunction with your spell choices and be thinking about how you want to use them together.

One thing to think about is Twinned Firebolt is pretty close to a Scorching Ray for only 1 sorcery point versus a 2nd level slot. It's only two rays but each does more damage past 5th level and considerably more at higher levels. This could save you a spells known slot as well as a 2nd level slot each time.

If you dip lock and take Agonizing Blast, a Quickened EB can be pretty brutal and potentially worse than a Scorching Ray for a similar cost. However, a Twinned Hex followed by Twinned Firebolts are also pretty brutal. Of course, you won't get cha bonus to fire damage until 9th if you dip 3 levels of lock.

If you want crowd control stuff instead of just direct damage, Twinned is definitely nice. It's harder to justify if you aren't going to take cc spells though. I'm a fan of Maximillian's Earthen Grasp over Hold Person. It's not limited to persons and restrained is a pretty brutal condition. Enemies have to use up their action trying to break out of it unlike Hold Person. It's also resisted by Str which is nice for dealing with casters but obviously not so good with brutish types. But then casters are the types I'm more likely to want to restrain and then take down quickly. Maybe the cleric can Silence them while they're restrained and melee can whallop them while you blast them from outside.

[MaxWilson]

I'm going to go ahead and venture a guess that the reason you're hurting so much for spell points/slots is that you're a blaster sorcerer, and blasting is very inefficient in 5E, especially if there's no mob around to use an AoE on. It takes a lot of spell point investment to equal the at-will damage of a GWM fighter or barbarian, to say nothing of an Action Surged GWM fighter.

Either you find a way to spend your spells more efficiently (i.e. switch to control instead of blasting, or take a Warlock 2 dip) or you hold your spells in reserve instead of trying to get involved in every fight (pick your battles wisely, use crossbows or cantrips in the other fights).

[Trasilor]

I just realized the only 1st level spell I can twin is magic missile..:smallannoyed: and I can twin fire bolt...looks like quicken might be more practical...

[Dalebert]

Actually you can't twin Magic Missile. It's not single-target. If you're not taking any buffs or single-target crowd controls, I agree. Don't take twinned.

[manny2510]

You can Twin Haste, Banishment, and Blight and break the sorcery point to spell economy as well as action economy. Quicken allows you an extra cantrip or action, so it is great for gish but too situational for a full caster.

[Trasilor]

I'm going to go ahead and venture a guess that the reason you're hurting so much for spell points/slots is that you're a blaster sorcerer, and blasting is very inefficient in 5E, especially if there's no mob around to use an AoE on. It takes a lot of spell point investment to equal the at-will damage of a GWM fighter or barbarian, to say nothing of an Action Surged GWM fighter.

Either you find a way to spend your spells more efficiently (i.e. switch to control instead of blasting, or take a Warlock 2 dip) or you hold your spells in reserve instead of trying to get involved in every fight (pick your battles wisely, use crossbows or cantrips in the other fights).

yes...as i said in the original post:smallamused:

And yes, my strategy is changing. Basically, for mooks I simply use cantrips to pepper and annoy. Upon seeing the big bad I unleash a furious firestorm of death :smallbiggrin:

There are 8 of us. I don't need to be a one-man show. :smallwink:

I know dipping into warlock would be a huge boost to my DPR, but its not all about who can deal the most damage per turn. :smallsmile:

[Trasilor]

Actually you can't twin Magic Missile. It's not single-target. If you're not taking any buffs or single-target crowd controls, I agree. Don't take twinned.

I did not know that (just found the errata). So screw twin spell...quicken spell it is. :smallamused:

[MaxWilson]

You can Twin Haste, Banishment, and Blight and break the sorcery point to spell economy as well as action economy. Quicken allows you an extra cantrip or action, so it is great for gish but too situational for a full caster.

Traditionally a full sorcerer will use Quicken to cast a spell (e.g. Lightning Bolt) while using his action to manage another spell (e.g. Eyebite). Unfortunately many of the best of the latter kind of spell are not on the Sorcerer spell list (Vampiric Touch, Call Lightning).

You can also use Quicken as a kind of poor man's Cunning Action. For example, if there is a Darkness spell around, use your bonus action to cast Quickened Fireball and then your regular action to Hide so you cannot be targeted.

==========================================


yes...as i said in the original post:smallamused:

You said in the original post that you're a blaster sorcerer, yes. My conjecture however is that because you are a blaster sorcerer, you burn out quicker than other full casters. I'd have to see you play to know for sure.

[RickAllison]

I've been building my sorcerer, and I ended up choosing both (and later I'm picking up Heightened and Empowered). If you can pick only one, Quicken is the one that gives the most versatility, so pick that if you are particularly set on another Metamagic.

Part of your issue is that spell levels 1 and 2 are not particularly useful for Twin. For your party, Level 3 is where the real fun of Twin can occur. Obviously you will want fireball, but your party of melee users would greatly appreciate having two of them able to do twice as much damage (Haste). At Sorc levels 7-9, you can solve many problems with proper use of 2 Polymorphed giant apes or dinosaurs, or you can turn yourself and a melee fighter or two of them who love sneak attacks completely invisible for 10 rounds and still being able to attack. Hold 2 Monsters can be handy (Hold Person less so...). Disintegrate is fantastic, and double is even more-so.

This isn't to say I'm not a fan of Quicken. Quicken is fantastic for spells, but it does cost you a bonus action. Normally a Sorc wouldn't worry about that too much, but certain spells do give you very potent BAs anyway. If your DM accepts Elemental Evil spells, Dust Devil gives you 10 rounds of using those to both blind and deny areas to closing melee combatants or ranged personnel. Basically, both are extremely useful, and it might be to your advantage to take both.

[Foxhound438]

twin costs more points at higher levels, but if you're looking to shoot a bunch of cantrips twin is better (partly for action economy)

[RickAllison]

twin costs more points at higher levels, but if you're looking to shoot a bunch of cantrips twin is better (partly for action economy)

Remember that cantrips still cost 1 SP to twin. You don't get off that easy :smallsmile:

EDIT: For Storm Sorcerers using Unearthed Arcana, Quicken gets major points. Quicken Call Lightning and you can use its attack twice that turn. Then you can keep using your wonderful storm and use Quicken again for if you need a specific other spell. It also helps that I have a great love for causing giant storms...

[Dalebert]

Hold Person and Invisibility can already be twinned by just casting them at a higher level.

Twinning cantrips ain't bad at all, particularly if you get a cha bonus to the damage. As I said earlier, a twinned Firebolt is very competitive with Scorching Ray which uses up a 2nd level slot. Also, you only get cha bonus to one of the Scorching Rays but you get it to both of the Twinned Firebolts since those are considered two separate spells.

Enlarge is a pretty good one to twin for just 2 pts. If you have a couple tanky damage dealers in the party, you can boost them both up.

Twinned is fairly cheap and competitive with 1st level spell damage to use on a cantrip and it's really nice for a tough fight like a boss fight to use with higher level buffs even though it's expensive. That's a time when you're likely ready to burn through whatever resources you have left for a BBEG.

[EvilAnagram]

Twinning cantrips ain't bad at all, particularly if you get a cha bonus to the damage. As I said earlier, a twinned Firebolt is very competitive with Scorching Ray which uses up a 2nd level slot. Also, you only get cha bonus to one of the Scorching Rays but you get it to both of the Twinned Firebolts since those are considered two separate spells.

Slight Quibble: A Twinned Firebolt is only competitive with a Scorching Ray after level 5, and it's only competitive with a Quickened Scorching Ray + Firebolt at level 17, by which time you have better options to Quicken.

Also, if you Quicken a Scorching Ray and cast Firebolt in the same round, you're adding exactly as much bonus damage as you would have if you just Twinned Firebolt.

[Dralnu]

My one and only D&D character (usually a DM) is Rusty, a blaster sorcerer. Dipped warlock, would definitely recommend. Currently Sorc 7 / Warlock 2 with the intent of going Sorcerer the rest of the way.

I took Quicken and Twin. They're both very good. Nothing I'd want over those two. Quicken gets in your extra damage, could be Fire Bolt but even better if it's EB. Twin does broken things when combined with certain spells, like Twinned Polymorph is just nasty.

I debated taking Elemental Adept feat but decided against it. It's a weak feat and feels "necessary" because fire is the most immune/resisted, but it doesn't even help against immune creatures.

Instead, take 2 levels of Warlock for Agonizing Eldritch Blast. It gives you amazing at-will damage, way better than your cantrips, and it's force damage so no worries about fire immune creatures.

It solves your problem of blowing through your spells just trying to keep up in combat, gives you way better single-target damage than anything a pure sorcerer can do, and gets around fire immune crap without picking up a crappy feat.

Seriously, 2-Warlock is too good to pass up. I actually don't care too much about Hex even though I took it; your bonus action is usually to Quicken, so applying Hex and moving it to new targets conflicts with that.

Also you can convert your Warlock spell slots into SP, and you get them back on a short rest, so you're actually up SP when you do this dip. The only thing you're down is 2 levels of sorcerer spell progression, not the worst honestly.

EDIT: Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast, I should add. From levels 5-10 you have 40 ft worth of pushback for free on hits, 60ft from levels 11-16! Push baddies off cliffs, into pits, out of rooms, whatever you want.

[RickAllison]

Hold Person and Invisibility can already be twinned by just casting them at a higher level.

Twinning cantrips ain't bad at all, particularly if you get a cha bonus to the damage. As I said earlier, a twinned Firebolt is very competitive with Scorching Ray which uses up a 2nd level slot. Also, you only get cha bonus to one of the Scorching Rays but you get it to both of the Twinned Firebolts since those are considered two separate spells.

Enlarge is a pretty good one to twin for just 2 pts. If you have a couple tanky damage dealers in the party, you can boost them both up.

Twinned is fairly cheap and competitive with 1st level spell damage to use on a cantrip and it's really nice for a tough fight like a boss fight to use with higher level buffs even though it's expensive. That's a time when you're likely ready to burn through whatever resources you have left for a BBEG.

I never said it wasn't worth that point for twinning cantrips, just clarifying! Twinned Shocking Grasp is great for shutting down weapon-wielders who get close, Double Ray of Frost can do well for keeping engagements in control while dealing damage, and who can argue with double Firebolts!

[MaxWilson]

Also you can convert your Warlock spell slots into SP, and you get them back on a short rest, so you're actually up SP when you do this dip. The only thing you're down is 2 levels of sorcerer spell progression, not the worst honestly.

A Warlock 2/Sorcerer 7 like you've got can technically acquire arbitrarily many Sorcerer spell slots by converting Warlock spell slots into sorcery points, and then converting those sorcery points into Sorcerer spell slots. According to the PHB errata, those spell slots only last until you take a long rest, so just make sure you only sleep 7 hours a night and you're golden... at least until your DM slaps you silly for munchkin cheese. :-)

BTW, I agree about the awesomeness of Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast. My favorite use of it that I've seen so far is to knock umber hulks off a spelljamming ship. The Out of the Abyss rules for pushing things off cliffs weaken this tactic a little (OotA grants a Dex 10 saving throw to catch hold of something instead of just falling) but it's still a great option to have in your pocket. To say nothing of how well it combines with Web, Wall of Fire and Spike Growth.

[ImSAMazing]

Make sure you have Twinned at lvl 7. Because polymorphing half an average party is way better than polymorphing a quarter of an average party into a Giant Ape.

[RickAllison]

Make sure you have Twinned at lvl 7. Because polymorphing half an average party is way better than polymorphing a quarter of an average party into a Giant Ape.

Depending on how generous your DM is, you could even have more fun at lvl 8. If (s)he lets you Polymorph as different beasts, you could have one be a giant ape and the other be a T-rex. Have them fight over a blonde, and what do you get?

http://img0.mxstatic.com/wallpapers/f90f50721784a5dbc8d0d8ba8b170755_large.jpeg

[spartan_ah]

can I twin counterspell?

[JoeJ]

can I twin counterspell?

Under what circumstances would that be useful?

[RickAllison]

can I twin counterspell?

I neither see a use for that, nor do I think it works. RAW does not seem to indicate that the character targets the caster, which would make Twin Spell ineligible (must not have target: self, must target only one creature).

[Dalebert]

The description of Counterspell starts with "You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell." So I think you could argue that the target is a single creature.


Under what circumstances would that be useful?

Good question. The tricky part is you would need to be interrupting two creatures at the same time since this is an instantaneous effect. I can think of maybe one very unusual situation. You move to counterspell someone and you expect another caster to counterspell your counterspell. You would have to decide up front that you're twinning it in anticipation of the counterspell to your counterspell. If both are successful, then your counterspell against the original spell would succeed.

[hymer]

Good question. The tricky part is you would need to be interrupting two creatures at the same time since this is an instantaneous effect. I can think of maybe one very unusual situation. You move to counterspell someone and you expect another caster to counterspell your counterspell. You would have to decide up front that you're twinning it in anticipation of the counterspell to your counterspell. If both are successful, then your counterspell against the original spell would succeed.

Less confusing, perhaps, is if two casters ready an action to cast a spell with the same activating condition. If the DM feels so inclined, twinned counterspell could do its stuff there?

[MaxWilson]

Under what circumstances would that be useful?

I cast Feeblemind at a wizard. The wizard and his apprentice both try to Counterspell. I Twin Counterspell them both.

I walk into a room. Two wizards both have readied actions which cause them to Hold Person. I Counterspell them both.

[coredump]

. Also, you only get cha bonus to one of the Scorching Rays but you get it to both of the Twinned Firebolts since those are considered two separate spells.
A twinned Firebolts is still just a single spell, it just has two targets. I don't see it being treated differently than Scorching Ray.


I cast Feeblemind at a wizard. The wizard and his apprentice both try to Counterspell. I Twin Counterspell them both.

I walk into a room. Two wizards both have readied actions which cause them to Hold Person. I Counterspell them both.neither of those will have both spells being cast at the exact same time.

As a DM I might allow it, but it's not how the rules work currently.

[Citan]

I am playing a blaster type sorcerer (Dragon Heritage - Fire). We have a large group with lots of melee and several other caster (Cleric, 2 Bards).

So, for people who have played sorcerers (or seen them played at their table), which metamagic was more useful to take at 3rd level: Twin Spell or Quicken Spell?

Also, I plan on taking a feat at level 4. Any suggestions?
Hi :)

In my opinion, there is no definitive statement to be made as to one being better than the other. It really depends on your playstyle.

Considering the facts that...
- You are mainly playing a blasty sorcerer (meaning taking very few debuff/buff spells).
- You already have 2 Bards for debuff and 1 Cleric for Buff...
Quicken would prove better in your case, unless you only use single-target spells (in which case Twin could be better).

Why?
Twin is nice either for high single-target damage or buff/debuff. We just stated that you don't fill in buff/debuff rule as a basis (unless I was mistaken in my assumption). So it boils down to "what are you using to blast"?
Fireball ? >> Not Twinnable.
Scorching Ray ? Not Twinnable.
Basically, twinnables are "Firebolt", Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp (Cantrip), CHromatic Orb, Ray of SIckness, Witch Bolt (lvl1), Lightning Bolt (lvl 3), then CHain Lightning and Disintegrate at lvl 6 (which means you're >lvl10 at which you get another Metamagic).

Compared to that, Quicken can be used for any cantrip and spell for a minimal, fixed cost.

Hence Quicken recommendation.
Also, I join others in Warlock 2-3lvl dip which works wonder : Agonizing Eldricht Blast which can be quickened for a nova, and short-rest spells = short-rest spell points.

Have fun!

[Dalebert]

A twinned Firebolts is still just a single spell, it just has two targets. I don't see it being treated differently than Scorching Ray.

I think I may be remembering incorrectly. I think the cha bonus to damage is limited to once per target so you can get it multiple times with Scorching Ray if each ray is used on a different target. If you use more than one ray on a single target the cha bonus is only applied once to that target. I think you're probably right.


Basically, twinnables are ... Lightning Bolt (lvl 3), then CHain Lightning

Lightning Bolt is an AoE and Chain Lightning is multi-target so neither is twinnable.

[RickAllison]

Lightning Bolt is an AoE and Chain Lightning is multi-target so neither is twinnable.

A very unfortunate fact for the poor Storm Sorcerers.

[coredump]

I think I may be remembering incorrectly. I think the cha bonus to damage is limited to once per target so you can get it multiple times with Scorching Ray if each ray is used on a different target. If you use more than one ray on a single target the cha bonus is only applied once to that target. I think you're probably right.


Not quite. The cha bonus is usable on one damage roll per spell. So only one scorching Ray, regardless so target(s)..... It will only effect multiple creatures if the spell uses the same damage roll to effect multiple targets at once, such as fireball or magic missile.

[Citan]

Lightning Bolt is an AoE and Chain Lightning is multi-target so neither is twinnable.

Dang, you're right, I was AFB, and there is no way to justify a Twin. Too bad.

I think I may be remembering incorrectly. I think the cha bonus to damage is limited to once per target so you can get it multiple times with Scorching Ray if each ray is used on a different target. If you use more than one ray on a single target the cha bonus is only applied once to that target. I think you're probably right.

Coredump is right by RAI (as told by Crawfords's tweets) but I personnally don't like it one bit, so I go by with what you say, as it seems to me a good compromise between RAW and RAI (and gives Scorching Ray a decent mundane interest instead of making it a niche spell). :)

[cildan]

Earlier in the thread I saw reference to Twin Polymorph, I wasn't sure it was possible to have two concentration spells going at the same time?

[RickAllison]

Earlier in the thread I saw reference to Twin Polymorph, I wasn't sure it was possible to have two concentration spells going at the same time?

That's why Twin Spell is so great. It lets you have two Concentration effects simultaneously because they were from the same spell (through Metamagic).


Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and
doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of
sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second
creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if
the spell is a cantrip).

Emphasis mine. Because it is the same spell, it goes around the normal concentration rules, which allows for some very cool combos!

[Oramac]

A very unfortunate fact for the poor Storm Sorcerers.

I'm currently playing a Storm sorcerer (multiclassed with 2 levels of Tempest Cleric). It's not too bad, really.

Currently I'm Storm Sorcerer 3 / Tempest Cleric 2. It's quite nice. I took both Twin and Quicken, and have a lot of fun with them.

And if you're very persuasive with your DM, you can do a lot of fun blasty stuff. For example:

Upcast a Chromatic Orb (doing Lightning or Thunder damage) to a 3rd level slot, Twin it, and use the Tempest Cleric Channel Divinity to maximize the damage of both Chromatic Orbs on one attack roll. So that's 40 damage on two targets with one attack roll.

It took a little discussion and a lot of reading in the PHB, but at a table of 5 people, 3 of whom DM regularly, they all agreed it was within the rules.

[RickAllison]

I'm currently playing a Storm sorcerer (multiclassed with 2 levels of Tempest Cleric). It's not too bad, really.

Currently I'm Storm Sorcerer 3 / Tempest Cleric 2. It's quite nice. I took both Twin and Quicken, and have a lot of fun with them.

And if you're very persuasive with your DM, you can do a lot of fun blasty stuff. For example:

Upcast a Chromatic Orb (doing Lightning or Thunder damage) to a 3rd level slot, Twin it, and use the Tempest Cleric Channel Divinity to maximize the damage of both Chromatic Orbs on one attack roll. So that's 40 damage on two targets with one attack roll.

It took a little discussion and a lot of reading in the PHB, but at a table of 5 people, 3 of whom DM regularly, they all agreed it was within the rules.

You know, I had just been thinking of potential multiclass options... :smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

A twinned Firebolts is still just a single spell, it just has two targets. I don't see it being treated differently than Scorching Ray.

neither of those will have both spells being cast at the exact same time.

As a DM I might allow it, but it's not how the rules work currently.

The rules don't actually specify an order for reactions. I wouldn't allow someone to know who else is trying to counterspell or if they will succeed before launching your own counterspell. No, use it or lose it.

Rules don't say you have to do this, but then they don't say what you should do instead either. DM ruling needed.

[JackPhoenix]

Now I imagine (for some reason) a gathering of hundreds of casters in close proximity, one starts casting something, and all others will start counterspelling both him and each other :smallbiggrin:

[Quasikaze]

I've seen a lot of people mention that Quicken is better because you can cast X spell as a bonus and Y spell as an action. The issue is that if X is a spell level of 1 or higher, then you can ONLY cast a cantrip as an action with RAW. [PHB 202]

Because of that, I'd probably say Twinned Spell is better.

[EvilAnagram]

I've seen a lot of people mention that Quicken is better because you can cast X spell as a bonus and Y spell as an action. The issue is that if X is a spell level of 1 or higher, then you can ONLY cast a cantrip as an action with RAW. [PHB 202]

Because of that, I'd probably say Twinned Spell is better.

A Quickened Scorching Ray and a Fire Bolt deals more damage at level three than any Twinned spell that you can cast at that level. As your levels increase, this does not change drastically. Twinned is more useful when using a Hold X or Dominate X spell.

[Dalebert]

Not quite. The cha bonus is usable on one damage roll per spell. So only one scorching Ray, regardless so target(s)..... It will only effect multiple creatures if the spell uses the same damage roll to effect multiple targets at once, such as fireball or magic missile.

Then I think I'm correct. If you shoot a Firebolt that affects two targets, then you would only be rolling the damage once whereas you are shooting three separate Scorching Rays and each one has its own damage roll.


A Quickened Scorching Ray and a Fire Bolt deals more damage at level three than any Twinned spell that you can cast at that level. As your levels increase, this does not change drastically. Twinned is more useful when using a Hold X or Dominate X spell.

Re: Twinned
It's true. You shouldn't bother with Twinned unless you have spells for buffing or debuffing that are exceptional when you can do it, things like Enlarge/Reduce, Haste, or Polymorph. Sure, you can benefit by twinning attack spells but that's just icing and I don't think it's enough to justify taking the metamagic. If you have Twinning for those reasons, then it's just nice that you can throw out a point and twin a cantrip and often get a little extra bang for the buck and dish out more damage when you really need to.

It's also important to repeat that a lot of spells don't require twinning to hit multiple targets. For instance, you can make multiple targets invisible, or Hold Person multiples, or Banishment on multiples just by casting in a higher slot. Sure, you can twin them and use sorcery points instead but that doesn't seem to justify taking Twinning.

Re: Quicken
This is another where you have to consider what other resources you will have. You can't cast another 1st or higher level spell if you cast a spell with a bonus action, but there are lots of useful things you might be able to do. For instance, you can disengage if you were surprised, back out of a crowd of enemies, and then AoE them. There are also some effects you might be able to do with an action other than spells. For instance, active a magic item. The Staff of Swarming Insects has a non-spell ability that creates heavy obscurement for everyone but you that takes an action and isn't concentration. This is a defensive thing you might want to do a lot if you can get this item without having to sacrifice casting some very beneficial spell in your first turn of combat. If you're playing AL, you can pointedly play in the adventure where this drops so you can actually attempt to make it a part of your build. That's just one example.

[Trasilor]

I see lots of people suggesting I take a 2 level dip into warlock. After reading the benefits, I think I will do this. Question: what level should I take the Warlock dip? I just hit level three

[EvilAnagram]

I see lots of people suggesting I take a 2 level dip into warlock. After reading the benefits, I think I will do this. Question: what level should I take the Warlock dip? I just hit level three

I would take it level 5. If it's just a dip, jump in and get it out of the way as quickly as possible. That way you can get right back to your spell progression. Only stick through 4 for the ASI.

[Rummy]

I'd wait until 6 to get my cha added to fireball.

My take: twinned is better at low levels, quickened shines more when you have more points to play with. I'd rather twin Chromatic Orb twice (in two fights or just two rounds) than quicken scorching ray/cast fire bolt once. And I might prefer twinning fire bolt four times to either of those.

But anyways, twin haste is awesome sauce. It's also perfect for blasters because you just focus on the fun stuff once you send your spastic melee puppies on their way.

[RickAllison]

Twin can be useful at all levels, but it really hits the sweet spot around 5-10. For my character, I would hold off until then if it wasn't for all of the fun you can have in that time!

[MaxWilson]

A Quickened Scorching Ray and a Fire Bolt deals more damage at level three than any Twinned spell that you can cast at that level. As your levels increase, this does not change drastically. Twinned is more useful when using a Hold X or Dominate X spell.

Quickened Scorching Ray + Fire Bolt: 3x 2d6 (21) + Fire Bolt (5.5)
Twinned Booming Blade w/ Greatsword: 2x 2d6+3 (20) + potential 2x d8 (9)

Twinned Spell gets more interesting with multiclassing. Twin Wrathful Smite is pretty interesting for a Paladorc, and Twin Sanctuary and Twin Cure Wounds are both occasionally useful.

[coredump]

The rules don't actually specify an order for reactions. I wouldn't allow someone to know who else is trying to counterspell or if they will succeed before launching your own counterspell. No, use it or lose it.

Rules don't say you have to do this, but then they don't say what you should do instead either. DM ruling needed.Thats a pretty big reach. There is nothing in the rules anywhere indicating two actions happening simultaneously. The entire game is based on turns, and one person acting at a time. It does not tell you how to resolve what the order is between two reactions....but it seems clear that there *is* an order.


Then I think I'm correct. If you shoot a Firebolt that affects two targets, then you would only be rolling the damage once whereas you are shooting three separate Scorching Rays and each one has its own damage roll. Attacks from a single spell happen in series, unless the spell explicitly states they happen simultaneously. Such as Magic Missile.
Further, the rule does not say there is just one firebolt, it says the one spell now has two targets.

[Dalebert]

Further, the rule does not say there is just one firebolt, it says the one spell now has two targets.

We're not talking about the spell as normal. We're talking about taking a single-target spell where you roll damage one time and then having it affect two targets. There's no more reason to roll damage again than there is to roll damage for every target of a Burning Hands or a Fireball.

[MaxWilson]

Thats a pretty big reach. There is nothing in the rules anywhere indicating two actions happening simultaneously. The entire game is based on turns, and one person acting at a time.

It sounds like you've not experimented much with any initiative variants.

I use a modified DMG Speed Factor resolution system (declare/act). All turns happen simultaneously. Most of the time we don't even bother rolling initiative because it doesn't matter; once in a while it becomes important whether X hit Y before Z happened, and then we do initiative.

Turns are the worst (most immersion-breaking) part of the 5E combat system; and even the with default initiative rules many things don't really happen in a well-defined one-at-a-time sequence within a turn (legendary actions, reactions). You can try to impose an ordering, if you're the DM, but by RAW there is no RAW indicating any kind of total ordering. There's just "when X [end of someone's turn] then Y [dragon gets a legendary action]," and simultaneity is a valid and very natural way to interpret that rule if there are multiple conditions in play (Flaming Sphere damages you at the same time both dragons hit you with a tail attack each). Imposing a total ordering is actually fairly unnatural.

The best part about simultaneous resolution systems (WE-GO) is that you don't have to undergo a phase change when combat starts; combat is like any other action resolution. DM describes a situation, player declares an action/intention, DM narrates the results--and it doesn't matter whether the action takes six seconds or sixty seconds to achieve, it works the same either way.

[Zalabim]

Quickened Scorching Ray + Fire Bolt: 3x 2d6 (21) + Fire Bolt (5.5)
Twinned Booming Blade w/ Greatsword: 2x 2d6+3 (20) + potential 2x d8 (9)

Twinned Spell gets more interesting with multiclassing. Twin Wrathful Smite is pretty interesting for a Paladorc, and Twin Sanctuary and Twin Cure Wounds are both occasionally useful.

You can't twin Wrathful Smite. It has a range of self. To twin Booming Blade with a Greatsword at level 3, you'd have to be a V. Human that started with Weapon Master, or use it without proficiency. I approve, but you'd have to use some extra means in order to escape melee and have a chance to get that potential damage.

Twinned Sanctuary and Twinned Healing Word are both occasionally useful and naturally quickened. Multiclassing gives some extra options to many metamagics.

[MaxWilson]

Good point about Wrathful Smite. My bad, and too bad.

(Though... does that mean that it works with Find Steed? I'll have to check the text of both spells...)

The awesome thing about Sanctuary is that not only is it a bonus action cast, but it is also 1 minute, no concentration.

[Ogre Mage]

For a blaster sorcerer, quicken spell. It is most efficient and cost effective for DPS.

Twin spell is more effective for a support sorcerer -- haste, greater invisibility, polymorph, cure wounds (if you are a favored soul) etc.

[spartan_ah]

Take the dip at level 3. This way you'll get your invocations at level 5. When you get 2 rays of eldritch blast

[MaxWilson]

Take the dip at level 3. This way you'll get your invocations at level 5. When you get 2 rays of eldritch blast

Don't you mean "at level 4"?

1 - Sorc
2 - Sorc
3 - Sorc: Quicken/whatever
4 - Warlock
5 - Warlock: Invocations

[coredump]

We're not talking about the spell as normal. We're talking about taking a single-target spell where you roll damage one time and then having it affect two targets. There's no more reason to roll damage again than there is to roll damage for every target of a Burning Hands or a Fireball.
There is nothing in the rules saying you only roll attack and/or damage once for a twinned spell, there is nothing in the rules saying the attacks of a twinned spell are simultaneous.
Spells in 5E that have multiple attacks, resolve those attacks one at a time unless explicitly stated as being simultaneous.
You have two targets, that means you roll two attacks, and if they hit, you make 2 damage rolls.


It sounds like you've not experimented much with any initiative variants.

I use a modified DMG Speed Factor resolution system (declare/act). All turns happen simultaneously. Most of the time we don't even bother rolling initiative because it doesn't matter; once in a while it becomes important whether X hit Y before Z happened, and then we do initiative. Okay, not it makes more sense. When you were discussing what the rules say, I did not realize you were including a House version of a DMG variant rule set. That makes more sense.


That aside, have you checked out the Hack Master initiative system? I really like it, but have never had a chance to use it. It goes in 1-second increments, and everything you want to do takes X seconds. It also means you can change your mind. If you start a 6 second attack, and after 3 seconds you decide to run away (or cast a spell instead, etc) then you just start doing that.

It seems daunting at first, but I have seen a couple of videos and it seemed to go pretty smoothly.... you may want to check it out.

[Dalebert]

There is nothing in the rules saying you only roll attack and/or damage once for a twinned spell, there is nothing in the rules saying the attacks of a twinned spell are simultaneous.
Spells in 5E that have multiple attacks, resolve those attacks one at a time unless explicitly stated as being simultaneous.
You have two targets, that means you roll two attacks, and if they hit, you make 2 damage rolls.

I'm aware of that rule but it doesn't apply here. Nothing about Twinned says it duplicates a spell effect; only that it affects two targets instead of one. In this case, it's not granting you a second firebolt.

It causes the one firebolt to affect two targets. The fluff of that might appear like a second firebolt. The fluff of it is up to you and the DM to figure out. Maybe it appears to fork and hit both or maybe it hits one creature and then changes direction and continues moving but either way, it's the same firebolt. The fact that you're required to roll an attack for the second target doesn't mean you're simply firing another firebolt as if you cast the spell a second time. There's one effect that has two targets. It's the same as with AoEs. There's one effect that affects multiple targets and you only roll damage once.

Maximillian's Earth Grasp is another example of this. If you twin it, the one effect can now attack two targets within range of the five foot area you've chosen. Maybe the hand is a little larger than normal and makes a sweeping motion to attempt to grab both. Fluff it how you want but it remains a single effect that has two targets instead of one. You could even fluff it that it makes two hands but the limits remain--the hands would have to emerge from the same spot because you can only add a target; not an effect, and the effect is limited to attacking a target within range of a spot you choose.

Hellish Rebuke is another example. It's eligible for Twinning but there's no point because you're restricted to targeting the person who did damage to you.

Firebolt is not limited by such effect restrictions. The 2nd target just has to be within the range of the spell like the first.

[SharkForce]

twin hellish rebuke is clearly for situations where the orc barbarian is trying to hit you with the Halfling monk.

[RickAllison]

twin hellish rebuke is clearly for situations where the orc barbarian is trying to hit you with the Halfling monk.

On the one hand, I don't think that is legal RAW. By RAI, that seems like a fantastic (if situational) idea!

[coredump]

I'm aware of that rule but it doesn't apply here. Nothing about Twinned says it duplicates a spell effect; only that it affects two targets instead of one. In this case, it's not granting you a second firebolt.

It causes the one firebolt to affect two targets. I am sorry, but you are mistaken. Twinning the spell means the *spell* has two targets now, not that the firebolt itself has two targets.

It, in effect, changes the wording in the PHB so the spell targets two different creatures. And the rules say that unless the spell says the attacks are simultaneous, then they are handled one at a time.

[Dalebert]

I am sorry, but you are mistaken. Twinning the spell means the *spell* has two targets now, not that the firebolt itself has two targets.

If the spell gave me a separate and consecutive firebolt, what's keeping me from firing it at the same creature? I can't because all the metamagic does is allow the exact same effect to apply to two targets instead of one in the same moment.


It, in effect, changes the wording in the PHB so the spell targets two different creatures. And the rules say that unless the spell says the attacks are simultaneous, then they are handled one at a time.

Well of course the spell doesn't say the attacks are simultaneous because multiple things would have to happen for the word "simultaneous" to even become relevant. Twinning changes the default behavior of the spell but it's beyond the power of the metamagic to grant me two separate and consecutive firebolts as if I had cast the spell twice. Twinning only takes the single-target effect and applies it to two targets at the same time just as it would a Twinned Hold Person. I can't twin Hold Person and then see if the creature makes it's save before deciding if I want to target the same creature again with the twinned effect.

Is there anyone besides Coredump and me who has an opinion on this? Neither of us seems likely to change our minds.

[RickAllison]

I like to consider the Twinned Spell as firing two incarnations of the same spell from two hands with the Ghostbusters caveat of "Never the streams shall cross." It makes the most thematic sense to me since it explains why a Sorcerer can fire both incarnations in entirely different directions, while also semi-handwaving the issue of why the same target can't be used. You could probably explain it in-universe as the Metamagic unraveling and reforming into one incarnation if the two pass in parallel.

[Trasilor]

I like to consider the Twinned Spell as firing two incarnations of the same spell from two hands with the Ghostbusters caveat of "Never the streams shall cross." It makes the most thematic sense to me since it explains why a Sorcerer can fire both incarnations in entirely different directions, while also semi-handwaving the issue of why the same target can't be used. You could probably explain it in-universe as the Metamagic unraveling and reforming into one incarnation if the two pass in parallel.

Interesting.

I always figured the game designers were being tools. They were so paranoid with spell-casters dominating the field (especially sorcerers) that their reasoning is "because". Spells that require you make an attack roll, essentially require you to aim - albeit with your mental ability (think of it as focusing). As such, in the heat of battle, you can unleash a spell that splits in two and can hit two targets that are diametrically opposite (one in front and one behind) without penalty. But hitting the same foe with a single spell? Nope.


Another quick question: what type of damage is an eldritch blast? It just says "energy"

[RickAllison]

Interesting.

I always figured the game designers were being tools. They were so paranoid with spell-casters dominating the field (especially sorcerers) that their reasoning is "because". Spells that require you make an attack roll, essentially require you to aim - albeit with your mental ability (think of it as focusing). As such, in the heat of battle, you can unleash a spell that splits in two and can hit two targets that are diametrically opposite (one in front and one behind) without penalty. But hitting the same foe with a single spell? Nope.


Another quick question: what type of damage is an eldritch blast? It just says "energy"


On a hit, the target takes 1dlO force damage.
Force damage!

[Trasilor]

Force damage!

hah reading fail :smallbiggrin:

[PoeticDwarf]

Quicken for melee or lower optimisation. Otherwise I'd go twinned.

[eastmabl]

Hold Person and Invisibility can already be twinned by just casting them at a higher level.

Of further note: by casting these spells at higher level, you are unable to twin them.

[eastmabl]

Under what circumstances would that be useful?

Technically, counterspell is eligible for twin spell (a single target that's not yourself). However, it's very esoteric that it might ever come up.

The only time that I could see it coming up is with spells that involve reactions:

Reactions - Held Action
1. Enemy Spellcaster # 1 casts a spell.
2. You use your reaction to cast counterspell with the twin effect. The first counterspell counteracts Enemy Spellcaster #1, except...
3. Enemy Spellcaster # 2 has a held action to cast a spell when you start casting a spell.

Ordinarily, your counterspell would trump ES #1's spell. However, ES#2's spell would go off - except you have that twinned counterspell that was part of your one (1) reaction this round. With an eligible spell to counter, you may stop both of them.

Counterspells
1. Enemy Spellcaster # 1 casts a spell.
2. You use your reaction to cast counterspell with the twin effect. The first counterspell counteracts Enemy Spellcaster #1, except...
3. Enemy Spellcaster # 2 also uses her reaction to cast counterspell your counterspell.

Ordinarily, ES#2's counterspell would trump your own spell, meaning that ES#1's spell goes off - except you have that twinned counterspell that was part of your one (1) reaction this round. It might be able to counterspell the counterspell. With an eligible spell to counter, you may stop both of them.

It's clunky as hell and somewhat esoteric, but I would hang a shingle on the argument.

[Dalebert]

I've decided to go with Twinning and Subtle Spell for my sorcerer. He'll have buffs like Enlarge/Reduce and Haste and some illusion stuff plus I'll sometimes twin cantrips. I really want that sweet, sweet twinned Haste for really tough fights. Sometimes I'll haste myself at the same time so I can protect myself and be really mobile which will help me to maintain concentration. Sometimes I'll use Subtle Spell with concentration effects so that I don't get targeted by baddies to end concentration. At the same time, I'll have Disguise Self up to not look like a caster at all.


Of further note: by casting these spells at higher level, you are unable to twin them.

Right, the higher level versions can't be twinned. You're not suggesting they can't be twinned at their lowest levels, are you?


Technically, counterspell is eligible for twin spell (a single target that's not yourself). However, it's very esoteric that it might ever come up.

This came up in another thread. A slightly more likely but still rare situation is if anyone holds their action to cast a spell in conjunction with someone else's casting. Two casters could both be holding actions to cast a spell based on the same trigger or one caster could be holding their action to cast simultaneously with the other caster's spell as the trigger.