An exercise on character creation.

[Mr.Moron]

Some of the posts in this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474674-Do-you-develop-chars-the-PHB-order got me curious about what people value in character creation, and how they make their decisions about what they play.


Suppose you were pitched a game in your current group (or a mix of players you've enjoyed playing with in the past), with the following character creation guidelines:



The game is starting in a peaceful human fishing village: Sleepybrook . It has been beset by mysterious misfortunes for the last 3 months according to the locals. For some reason of your choice, the characters are investigating this. We'll open with a fight against a group of the Faceless attacking the village as you arrive, terrible monsters which haven't been seen in over 1,000 years and many assume are just myths.



Your character can start at any level between 1 and 3.
You may choose any race, alignment, class or background you wish including 3rd party options, homebrew and your own creations.
You may assign your attributes anyway you wish with minimum of 3 and maximum of 20 in any given stat. The only restriction is that one attribute must be less than 20. Roll, use an array, just assign them.. doesn't matter.
You may choose any number of feats for your character to start with but new feats cannot be gained as a result of character progression.
Your character may start with any equipment you wish: Companions, land, magic items, buildings and any other thing that can be owned counts as "Equipment" for this purpose.


Please build your character with goal of perusing a relatively mainstream heroic fantasy "Save the world!"-type game, where character progression is meaningful.
Before the first session, but after you've created your character we'll sit down and figure out how all the characters met and how they came to share an investment in the current events. You can still change your back story in this step if you need to but not your background or other mechanical options.
If two or more players think a character is disruptive, inappropriate or just plain silly they won't be accepted for play. In that case you may instead use one of these pregenerated characters <link to the character sheets from the starter set.>

What do you show up with and why?
How did you choose your attributes/feats/etc..?
What would you expect out of your fellow players?
What would you expect would cause other players to veto a character?
What would cause you to cast a vote on vetoing another character?

If the veto clause is gone and you have no information on the game premise, does your character change and how?

(as for the game premise, even if it's not your cup of tea just assume that the mood has struck you for that sort of thing for whatever reason)

[Officer Joy]

I would't be able to play in that game.
I'm to weak to stop myself from making myself overpowered, but then wouldn't enjoy playing a character so overpowered (even if I don't get vetoed)
Or if I succeed in making myself only as strong as the PHB suggests I would resent those that made their character more powerfull than mine.

[Finieous]

Yeah, I see your parenthetical there, but I'd just pass. Sorry I can't be of any help.

[Kane0]

What do you show up with and why?
Level 3 Nonhuman (Likely Elf, Dwarf or halfling) Fighter (Homebrewed Kensai subclass). Stats 16, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10 (not rolled). Background befitting a monastic lifestyle, and a magic longsword as a magic item, usually used in both hands (no shield). No other notable possessions beyond regular starting gear and maybe some stuff back at home in the monastery. Feats would be difficult, i'd rather pick them up as I level but i'd choose Lucky, Mobile and something like resilient or skilled.

How did you choose your attributes/feats/etc..?
Picked a class and subclass I've wanted to play for a while but haven't got the chance, paired it with an interesting but mostly standard race/background.
Stats were allocated based on what the group's standard array is.
I wouldn't pick more than 3 feats, and i'd rather gain them with ASIs rather than only at level 1.

What would you expect out of your fellow players?
I'd expect one to min-max, one to go for something truly bizarre, the other 2-3 picking something mostly average stuff with one or two interesting/novel bits each.

What would you expect would cause other players to veto a character?
A remake of a previous character (Drow assassin rogue and Noble Paladin would be auto-vetoed for 2 specific players)
Blatantly powergaming (eg A character with max allowed stats and all feats, loaded to the gills with magic items)
A character chosen specifically to break party cohesion (eg chaotic stupid or lawful stupid played by certain players)

What would cause you to cast a vote on vetoing another character?
All of the above

If the veto clause is gone and you have no information on the game premise, does your character change and how?
Probably not. I might give myself a bag of holding or something with 'just in case' supplies, maybe a stat 2 points higher.

[KorvinStarmast]

Before the first session, but after you've created your character we'll sit down and figure out how all the characters met and how they came to share an investment in the current events. You can still change your back story in this step if you need to but not your background or other mechanical options. . That seems like a good way to mold a group, though the rest of this idea is a poor one.

If two or more players think a character is disruptive, inappropriate or just plain silly they won't be accepted for play.
At this point, if someone "vetoes" my character, I tell this group of strangers to piss off, and likely ask the DM what drugs he's been taking.

I'd then take the DM aside and have a discussion about "How to be a DM 101" and point out that setting limits and constraints is one of his major roles and responsibilities when it comes to character and game initiation What you have proposed is a failure of that core DM role.

Mr Moron, to put a finer point on it, what I dislike about your premise and its internal contradiction is that you first offer a "no limits" build but then you introduce a "gotcha" game with other players. That sows the seeds of at table conflict between players.

1. I don't build characters to win the approval of other people.

2. I also prefer to "wait and see" before odd builds are judged by me. It usually takes a few sessions to see how a given group comes together, or not. Asking me to prejudge like that is to ask me to be intolerant of other players.

What do you show up with and why?

Whatever I feel like at the time. Why? Because I haven't actually been invited to this game, and I don't know who I am playing with.

[Foxhound438]

if you want something not totally broken, i would go for a rogue2/barb1 with spread of 16/14/16/10/10/8 (down the line of stats), take expertise in athletics+???. barb for more thickness, plus advantage on grappling/shoving. maybe goliath, because they're cool. (literally 100% raw+AL vieable, save for level for the latter)

for something stupid broken, that with belt of storm giant strength and +3 rapier, every feat in the book (because why not), 20's in dex/con, ... you get the point.

[Mr.Moron]

That seems like a good way to mold a group, though the rest of this idea is a poor one.

At this point, if someone "vetoes" my character, I tell this group of strangers to piss off, and likely ask the DM what drugs he's been taking.

...

Whatever I feel like at the time. Why? Because I haven't actually been invited to this game, and I don't know who I am playing with.

As stated orginally, you're playing with:


Suppose you were pitched a game in your current group (or a mix of players you've enjoyed playing with in the past), with the following character creation guidelines:

I have Bolded for emphasis. You are are explicitly not playing with strangers but your current gaming group, or a group of people of your choice you've played with in the past. This was stated clearly before the block containing the general premise and generation rules.

Presumably these are people you've dealt with before and you can deal with in good faith and expect to deal with you in good faith.

[JumboWheat01]

Let's see here, your standard save the world thing... I have just the character for such an occasion..

I'd show up with a Lawful Good Stout Halfling Fighter, one Corrin Littleknight. He's a finesse Fighter, focusing on dual-wielding finesse weapons, particularly a Short Sword in the main-hand and a Scimitar in the off-hand.

Stats are... STR - 12 / DEX - 16 / CON - 16 / WIS - 13 / INT - 10 / CHA - 8
(Using standard 15/14/13/12/10/8 array, with a Stout Halfling's +2 DEX and +1 CON)

He's from a Folk Hero background, from his brave defense against a wolf attack on his home village (hey, that's a huge thing for a Halfling,) so he has Animal Handling and Survival skills, plus Perception and Acrobatics from his Fighter training.

Let's say he's Level 2, as it was a bit of an adventure just to get to this little fishing village. He's wearing some good studded leather and wielding a pair of short swords, he hasn't gotten around to getting a scimitar just yet, along with your standard adventuring pack with some munchies for the road and things of the like. And starting off at Level 2, rather than 3, would let him decide if he wants to go down the Scout route, take advantage of his natural small size and nimble body with some stealthy play, or study hard and learn to be a Battle Master. This adventure would help be the true defining point of that character change.

He should be a fair fit.

[Mr.Moron]

My own response, just in the interest of providing to the discussion:


I show up with a level 3 Human Paladin (Home brew Oath of Illumination).
Attributes: STR: 16 CON: 15 DEX:8 INT: 13 WIS: 15 CHA: 17
Background: Scholar
Feats: Linguist & Keen Mind
Equipment Standard starting equipment. A cart and a couple donkeys. He has a traveling/companion assistant (just a commoner statwise). The cart carries a fair number of books, primarly on the occult but also some on millitary tactics/history and trade/negotiation. He also has standard camping equipment and about 2 weeks worth of food.


Why did I show up with this:? I've been having an itch the player scholarly knight in shining armor.
How did I choose my stats and feats:? I took what I wanted without it feeling super-i-dunk-you-lol. Stats were arbitrarily assigned didn't use any rules-based method.
What will I expect out of the other players? Mostly approaches that try to stick to the PHB. One of them is probably going to want to play a talking penis or something and another is going to pull out some kind of homebrew they think is super-strong but is really only kind of mediocre.
What will cause other players to veto? The talking penis.
What will cause me to veto? Anything I think would cause the bulk & skull theme to play. Anything evil. The talking penis.

If the veto clause isn't present? My character probably has owns some land. Declaring myself a land owner seems a bit much, wouldn't want to risk taking it.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Stuff

I just make whatever character I want and then make it fit to the world or talk with the DM to make it fit.

Goliath Charlatan Bard (Lore) 3

Dude is 6-9 ish

This guy goes against all typical stereotypes. He has expertise I'm acrobatics and stealth and have training in a ton of skills and can help out in almost any area. He isn't all that strong but he is 6'9" and can slip out of any attempted grapple (which is one reason why he wins, people think he will use brute force.

Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 11
Wis: 13
Cha: 16
Generation: Rolled cause I felt like it

Feats: Actor, Skulker, Spell-Sniper

Expertise: Acrobatics and Stealth

Though he is trying to save the world he tends to embelish the truth, yeah, he faught off a wolf and not a owlbear... But who is really counting?

[bid]

What do you show up with and why?
How did you choose your attributes/feats/etc..?
What would you expect out of your fellow players?
What would you expect would cause other players to veto a character?
What would cause you to cast a vote on vetoing another character?

If the veto clause is gone and you have no information on the game premise, does your character change and how?
I'd prolly come with multiple characters and grab one that does not duplicate another player's effort.

That being said:
- useless feats: dungeon delver, keen mind, linguist
- pick a concept for them: archeologist/miner
- maybe cheese it up with svirfneblin magic if it somehow works
- something that cannot be done because of the MAD MC requirements but only needs 4 ASI

Bits that might be part of the design:
- transmutation wizard
- dexadin of the ancient (or chaladin with shillelagh)
- goo tomelock (for shillellagh)
- maybe portent cheese with lucky feat, less level required

I can get a working ancient 7 / goo tome 11 / divination 2 with 13 14 16 13 13 16 and not require any combat feat. Start it with tome 3, then ancient 6. Looks like it could work for a deep gnome but I won't double-check yet.

I have my own private library and the sage researcher feature with arcana, investigation, stealth and deception. I have 3 pure concept feats: dungeon delver, keen mind, linguist. I have 3 levels of cheese: lucky feat, svirfneblin magic, resilient (Con). I can neuter the stats to Str8 Dex13+1 Con13+1 Int12+2 Wis10 Cha16 if I really have to tone it down (but dispensation for pally MC). I might grab skilled for athletics, tinker's and cartographer's.

I expect to see one killer babe and a mystical wierdo. I don't expect vetos, but later adjustments to share the spotlight.

[Citan]

Hi :)

Interesting thread, thanks for opening it.
If I could bring homebrew, I would obviously come as a Lightning Elemancer lvl 3.

Otherwise, I would probably use a concept of tortured character such as Bard 1 / Paladin 1 / Warlock 1.
Character which was brought up in a nice aristocracy family, with serious ties with one "good" clerical order.
He grew up trying to balance his family welfare (becoming a Paladin) while improving his own set of skills (being an artist in soul > Bard), in order to uphold "neutral good" values and try to resolve conflicts through dialogue or ruse instead of armed fighting.
Eventually though, his "peace wannabee behaviour" brings misfortune to a loved one, making him break his classical morality. In the displayed goal of getting enough strengh to "save anyone", he craves to become powerful by any means, even if it means pactising with obscure forces and endangering his oncoming Paladin Oath (Warlock).

Mechanically
CHA first, then DEX and CON, STR at minimal
Background: Hombrew mix between Entertainer and Noble (gains : skill Acrobatics, Persuasion, Performance, one instrument).
Starting skills (Paladin + Multiclass Bard): Perception, Insight, Religion.
+ : very versatile
+ : many orientations possible to get a good build around character lvl 8/9.
- : underpowered in combat (and will stay "late" compared to everyone else of same level throughout) and generally "min-max" opposite.

Group integration
+ can grow into any direction depending the party needs and other allies evolution
+ can be a nice party face or at least cover 2-3 skills for the group if needed.
+ gives plenty potential reasons to know one or several members of the party due to rich and complex background.

RP
+ flexible enough to fit with most DM...
* DMs who like players to master their own way (perfect, I can choose what I want to become : at least Paladin 6 / Warlock 2 / Bard 3).
* DMs who prefer "imposing" fateful events to their players (so I don't know which side of the Force I'll attach to in the end).
+ character complexity means he can bring many surprises in group interactions (like gradually nurturing his own goals, until he turns against his group because personal and group interests conflict).

Actually it's one of the DMPC (although a bit modified, less party-face) I created for my campaign, although I didn't have a reason to "enter" him yet in the group. ^^

[KorvinStarmast]

You are are explicitly not playing with strangers but your current gaming group, or a group of people of your choice you've played with in the past. OK, I still do not accept the "veto" or "vote off the island" premise of your question. For that matter, that isn't how we roll, so I am of no help to you in responding to this question. We go through brain storming process of people picking what class they want to play until we get a party we like the look of and take it from there. That is not the same as showing up with a character and being 'vetoed' by to out of a group of 5.
I'm sorry, that's bad small group dynamics.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

OK, I still do not accept the "veto" or "vote off the island" premise of your question. For that matter, that isn't how we roll, so I am of no help to you in responding to this question. We go through brain storming process of people picking what class they want to play until we get a party we like the look of and take it from there. That is not the same as showing up with a character and being 'vetoed' by to out of a group of 5.
I'm sorry, that's bad small group dynamics.

Your attitude is bad for *pick a size* group dynamics.

Why would you try to derail this thread? If you don't like the parameters set by the OP you don't have to try and start arguing over something that you have no interest in.

[Oramac]

What do you show up with and why?
How did you choose your attributes/feats/etc..?
What would you expect out of your fellow players?
What would you expect would cause other players to veto a character?
What would cause you to cast a vote on vetoing another character?

If the veto clause is gone and you have no information on the game premise, does your character change and how?

(as for the game premise, even if it's not your cup of tea just assume that the mood has struck you for that sort of thing for whatever reason)


I actually just started a game with similar rules to this. The DM basically said, "play whatever you like, but if it's stupidly overpowered, I'm gonna rain hell down on it".

I showed up with a Worgen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474091-Worgen-Race-(Loosely-based-on-Warcraft-Worgen)) Paladin, Oath of Vengeance. (My own homebrew race)

Stats, including racials (we started with a 33 point buy):

Str: 16 + 2
Dex: 9
Con: 15
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 15 + 1

Feats: Resilient (con) at 4th level; GWM at 8th level;

If I were taking feats from Level 1, I'd just take those two.

We had our first game two days ago, and so far everyone seems to be cool with it. He plays very much like a Half-Orc or a Tiefling would, from an RP perspective.

[Mad Puppy]

What do you show up with and why?
Beaumains the Rainbow knight
Pale white skinned White haired ice blue eyes noble knight of Sossal (is this Forgotten realms?), fond of wearing bright colors in the shades of the rainbow.
Picture the Arthurian Bright knight who is an expert at Jousting, Bound by a code of honor and doing the right thing.
Riding a charger in Full Plate mail
Code of Chivalry:


To serve the liege lord in valour and faith
To protect the weak and defenceless
To give succour to widows and orphans
To refrain from the wanton giving of offence
To live by honour and for glory
To despise pecuniary reward
To fight for the welfare of all
To obey those placed in authority
To guard the honour of fellow knights
To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
To keep faith
At all times to speak the truth
To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
To respect the honour of women
Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
Never to turn the back upon a foe



Nobel background with Retainers:
A squire, Page, & Smith/Armorer

fighter 3rd level (BattleMaster)
Dueling Fighting style (sword/Lance and board)
Str:20, Dex:15, Con:19, Int:13, Wis:17, Chr: 18
Feats:
Mounted Combatant
Great weapon master
Heavy Armor master
Shield master
Magic Initiate: Warlock

True Strike
Prestidigitation
Hex



How did you choose your attributes/feats/etc..?
Attributes were just Default stats +5....I wanted that 20 to start......;o)
Feats are to be the best possible stereotypical Knight in the land
Mgic initiate, to get Hex for his big foes in Jousting and single combat. Will point out a foe when casting true strike. and prestidigitation to color his closes, clean his weapons armor,and chill/heat/flavor his drink and food

What would you expect out of your fellow players?

Teamwork
Life saving
Protect the innocent
Save the world



What would you expect would cause other players to veto a character?
Evil, Wild magic,

What would cause you to cast a vote on vetoing another character?
Not really sure, will cross that bridge when it comes

If the veto clause is gone and you have no information on the game premise, does your character change and how?
Nope. I have the goody-two shoes of the group

[MaxWilson]

Here's a guy I rolled up for another thread. Methodology: 3d6 in order approximately fifty times, take the worst set.

Str 6 Dex 7 Con 8 Int 7 Wis 4 Cha 9


Clearly we have a winner. As tempting as it is to make this guy a front-line Heavy Armor Master fighter in plate mail whose job is primarily to Dodge and soak hits, I think I am instead going to have to make him... a rage-filled, manic-depressive Necromancer with massive self-esteem issues and a grudge against the world. And you know what's funny? He can even be a viable character in combat. Slap some plate armor and a shield on him and his Dex doesn't matter; plate armor prevents spellcasting and gives disadvantage on Str/Dex saving throws/ability checks/attack rolls, but this guy doesn't even care since he already blew all of his spell slots on his undead minions; during combat he can Dodge while using his bonus action to shriek, "Kill them! Kill them all!" at his zombies and skeletons. He can use up his 1st and 2nd level spell slots on utility spells like Unseen Servant (pull the flesh off these bones!), Rope Trick, Find Familiar, and Longstrider (cancels out the speed penalty from plate armor), and he won't care about the fifteen minutes it takes to shuck/don his armor so he can cast those spells. He'll eventually learn Fabricate so he can make his own weapons and armor for his undead army (Guild Merchant background).

It would almost be a pity to spend his ASIs on boosting his stats. If I could think of a good way to spend his feats that did not involve raising his stats... maybe he gradually, over time, acclimates himself to his armor? By 19th level he could have Light/Medium/Heavy Armor proficiency, Heavy Armor Master, Lucky, and Tough. AC 25 (Spell Mastery: Shield), 102 HP, and a whole army of undead.

I kind of want to use this guy as a BBEG.

Given the thread constraints in the OP, I think I'd leave this guy's personality intact but give him Heavily Armored right off the bat (since he can't gain it later, and without it his development will be limited). Making the little rage-monster fit into a save-the-world campaign with a bunch of heroes should be entertaining. I'm willing to work at it. :)

What do you show up with and why?
As above. I'll call him Giuseppe Zangara.

How did you choose your attributes/feats/etc..?
As above.

What would you expect out of your fellow players?
Refrain from killing Giuseppe out of hand. Make use of his talents to save the world. You don't have to put up with hordes of undead in every scene of the campaign, but if you can't make peace with a lesser evil like Giuseppe to deal with a dire emergency like whatever is threatening the entire world, you should just veto Giuseppe at the outset and let him be a bad guy/rival NPC/whatever instead of incorporating him into the party. I'd be disappointed if his minions were onscreen less than 20% of the time in the campaign.

Also, I'd expect my fellow players to be realistic about Giuseppe's ability to contribute usefully. Yes, he can Haste you, and he can Rope Trick, and he can cast scrying spells and Arcane Eye, etc., but if you complain because he spends a lot of time Dodging while you do all the damage, we're not playing the same kind of game.

Also, I'd expect fellow players to not expect too much intelligent initiative from this guy out of combat either. If you want Giuseppe to do something sneaky and brilliant, you have to point him in the right direction. I'd expect players to be fine with me playing him as more sulky and passive than I naturally am, which means you basically need to expect the same level of interaction from him that you'd normally get from an NPC, not a PC. Occasionally he will whip something out, but even then you can't expect what he's about to do to be a good idea. Sometimes it will be good, sometimes it will be bad. Again, if that ruins your fun, veto now before the campaign starts and I'll make someone with better mental stats and a more upbeat personality.

What would you expect would cause other players to veto a character?
Not liking undead or minions.

What would cause you to cast a vote on vetoing another character?
Insufficient ties to the group and Lone Wolf syndrome. Stupid punk tricks like keeping important mission information secret and stealing from other PCs. Kender. Really though these things are player issues and not character issues--if I trusted the player I'd be fine with whatever character, as long as I had sufficient reasons in-character not to murder the other PC no matter what. (Even if that reason is a DM fiat magical uber-Geas.)

If the veto clause is gone and you have no information on the game premise, does your character change and how?

I don't think it changes at all.