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Neon Knight
2007-06-13, 09:43 PM
I'd like aid in preparing a gestalt character. Level is 6. 15,000 Gold. Stats are rolled but the way he has it set up the lowest stat you can get is 9 and the highest 18. All core classes are available except for Paladin. Classes from Alternate sources are accepted on a case by case basis after close analysis.

I've decided on Sorcerer/X.

I need both to fill in the X and aid building my sorcerer half. I'd prefer something providing good unarmed fighting ability for the X. I've heard of an unarmed Swordsage variant that might fit the bill.

For the sorcerer, I'd prefer to take a mix of blasting and useful spells.

Turcano
2007-06-13, 10:00 PM
Put cleric on the other side; the Cha for your sorcerer spellcasting synergizes with the cleric's turn undead, you get access to another spell list, and the cleric is decent (but not spectacular) for fighting, unless you cheese it up, in which case it's as good as a fighter. Fighting unarmed can be supplemented by touch attack spells (say, inflict X wounds). You do get some MAD, though, although not that much.

Starsinger
2007-06-13, 10:03 PM
Or take Paladin, get full BAB, nice for ray and ranged touch attacks, Divine grace gives you your Charisma bonus to saves, you get a free horse, and the ability to do small amounts of healing, also based on your Charisma score. Perfect, especially if you play as a regular Sorcerer, with extra stuff.

purepolarpanzer
2007-06-13, 10:04 PM
Sorceror swordsage is definatly good. Another good combination is sorceror monk, dealing touch spells with unarmed strikes to make some major blows.

Turcano
2007-06-13, 10:04 PM
Or take Paladin, get full BAB, nice for ray and ranged touch attacks, Divine grace gives you your Charisma bonus to saves, you get a free horse, and the ability to do small amounts of healing, also based on your Charisma score. Perfect, especially if you play as a regular Sorcerer, with extra stuff.

Um, he specifically stated that paladin wasn't an option. That would have been my first suggestion otherwise.

Starsinger
2007-06-13, 10:07 PM
:smallannoyed: Heh... how did I let that slip past me? Well now that I feel rather stupid... Hexblade does almost all of that, you get your Charisma bonus to saves against spells, still full BAB, but not as nice as a paladin.

Neon Knight
2007-06-13, 10:16 PM
Sorceror swordsage is definatly good. Another good combination is sorceror monk, dealing touch spells with unarmed strikes to make some major blows.

I was thinking Sorcerer/Monk, but the DM warned that this campaign was gonna be tough (which is why we get Gestalt) and I felt that Monk might not be a wise decision.

Starsinger
2007-06-13, 10:20 PM
Sorcerer/Monk might work, look in to Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Arcane

Generic PC
2007-06-13, 10:21 PM
I would say Cleric would be nice, but it really depends on the rest of your party. Are people for sure going Fighter//Barbarian? stuff like that.

Neon Knight
2007-06-13, 10:24 PM
Sorcerer/Monk might work, look in to Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Arcane

I lack Complete Arcane.

I possess ToB and Complete Warrior, however.

Ponce
2007-06-13, 10:31 PM
Ascetic Mage is in Complete Adventurer, I think.

I'd go for Favored Soul from Complete Divine. It uses the Cleric spell list to cast divine spells, but it is a spontaneous, cha-based caster, like the sorcerer. Wisdom is still used for his spell DCs, however. Just stick to buffs.

Starsinger
2007-06-13, 10:34 PM
Ascetic Mage is in Complete Adventurer, I think.


Probably... my brain has turned into potato salad or something. Favored soul is a good idea though. Rogue might not be bad either, charisma skills, lots of skill points, better BAB, sneak attack if you're gonna go for blasting.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-06-13, 10:49 PM
Ascetic Mage is also on the internet. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ascetic_Mage,CAd)

Callix
2007-06-13, 10:58 PM
If you have attributes to support this, a sorceror/spellwarp sniper (optional, Complete Scoundrel)//rogue is pretty darn awesome, with 3d6 sneak attacks off rays and Invisibility to boot. Or, if MAD's not a prob, Sorcerer//Monk has 3 good saves, awesome unarmored AC and lots of nice tricks like Touch of Fatigue/Exhaustion on a flurry, or Fireball on self + improved evasion.

brian c
2007-06-13, 11:01 PM
I don't see what good Ascetic Mage is going to do, it's Gestalt, not multi-class. It wouldn't be a good idea to multi-class out of Sorcerer unless it's for a full-casting PrC.

At any rate, swordsage would be very nice. Take Desert Wind and that can replace some of your direct damage spells. Also, gestalt caster//martial adept is the easiest way into Jade Phoenix Mage, a very interesting PrC. It's only 3/5 caster levels I think, but this is gestalt.

Hm... what happens if you have Sorcerer // Monk/Jade Phoenix Mage ? Do you still get the +1 spellcasting level from JPM, or does it not overlap? I have a feeling it doesn't, in which case you should either find another PrC you like, or take a few more levels of Swordsage opposite the JPM levels that give spellcasting.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-13, 11:01 PM
There are so many options available now.

A UA or Hypertext Spellcaster variant is sort of a sorcerer class fix and will give you access to all arcane and divine spells and your choice of primary ability Int, Wis or Char for your spellcasting ability plus a bonus feat at level 1 instead of a familiar (or a familiar if desired) plus more at levels 5, 10 and 15 and 20 if not PRCing on that side. Minor bonus is getting to choose two skills for knowing fewer than a standard sorcerer and fueling a reserve feat for general unlimited close range spell blasting. That is great for gestalt particularly with a Battle spellcaster variant granting D8 and average BAB base for other builds.

I saw the note regarding the paladin but a few levels (3 - 5) in a PRC "Alignment" Paladin from UA and the Hypertext might be useful since you would not be limited to LG although you lose a casting level at levels 2 and 4 for all the extra bennies like Divine Grace and you could add it on either side of the build.

Gestalt is a UA/Hypertext concept just like the spellcaster so it isn't to far out there and a wisdom based spellcaster monk would work hypertext corewise.

Going Druid/Spellcaster with Wisdom bonus is Super Tough and could be even more Killer and exactly what you are looking for particularly with a single level of monk and throw in a level of rogue and another in ninja take a feat to mix it up so it stacks for attacking. Don't forget the KILLER PLANAR SHEPHERD PRC ABUSE POTENTIAL in this PC.

Daily choice of Druid spells with Wildshaping and your animal companion plus now you can cherry pick the most interesting arcane and divine spells to meet your needs and offset your druidic spellcasting with D8, Average BAB, 4SPs plus the choice of Two Skills from the Spellcaster side.

There are neat feats with spelllike abilities like Godsight in Lost Empires of Faerun or Fey or Fiendish Presence and more powerful feats like Fey Legacy and Fiendish Legacy introduced in Complete Mage.

For spellcasting you can keep it simple by being one of the party healing batteries if you don't want to do a lot of messing around with spells. A single level in monk on one side gets you that killer Wisdom AC bonus that synergizes with Mage Armor and Natural armor. With all the feat options now you can cast spells while wild shaped in one of your forms protected by Mage Armor stacking with your Natural Armor and Wisdom bonus making you very hard to hit.

Wisdom - 18, the +0 Plane touched template grants you a +2 to Wisdom and Charisma equal to (+6 points in point buy for Wisdom alone), market price a Periapt of Wisdom +2 is 4,000 GP, a +4 is 16,000 GP and a +6 is 36,000 GP with Craft Wonderous item for your character or someone in the party you can have the +4 periapt now for half cost.

Otherwise buy the +2 periapt for 4,000 GP now your base wisdom is 18, +2 for planetouched, +1 for leveling and +2 for your periapt.

Get a Heward's Handy Haversack for 2,000 GP to hold your gear and treasure, a wand or two of cure light wounds at 750 GP each and a Tan Bag of Tricks for 6,300 GP (Perfect magic item for a Druid or Ranger) or Two if you have the Craft wonderous item in your party with other permanent and temporary magic items to taste a Gray or Rust Bag of Tricks is also nice for checking for traps and things. Lots of level one pearls of power usable by any party spellcaster and increases spellcasting options. 500 - 1,500 GP in assorted potions and scrolls hopefully consulting with other party members works really nice if you all contibute to a general party temporary magic item pool.

Consider mixing it up a bit on one side a level or two or even three in rogue for skill points and sneak attack plus evasion at level 2, a level in monk for wisdom bonus to AC and going Druid or Spellcaster for the rest.

An educated Wilder (Get 4 extra powers than a comparable Wilder over 20 levels Wizards did a Web article on it recently) with a level or two in Anarchic Initiate with Sorcerer/Spellcaster could work as a super blaster type and going with one of the King of Smack builds would fill all your criteria plus Inertial Armor scales up with power points as you level up which is nice.

An alt rogue changeling gets 10 SPs a level and some interesting abilities instead of trapsense at levels 1 and 3 along with sneak attack which would synergize nice using some of the monk and rogue variants to combine the damage with unarmed strike.

Consider Archivist and spellcaster using intelligence particularly if delaying a level or two and taking a level or two in rogue for skill points.........

One to Seven or Eight levels in MotAO or Guild Wizard of Waterdeep or other campaign PRC that provides some limited spell pool access for emergency situation spellcasting options would be helpful for limited known spells. Little things like casting the single daily Mage Armor spell.

A Spell Thief or a Psi warrior could be interesting on one side since you could choose your primary char or wis as a spellcaster.

Going the Ultimate Magus route on your sorcerer side with Beguiler could be nice also with an Intelligence based spellcaster would be nice for fueling a few daily quickened meta spells and give you a lot of options for the other side.

Taking an Elemental "arcane disciple" with turning like Air or Fire and if your DM will let you use that turning ability that accompanies the domain to fuel the divine spell feat (and choose persist spell) could be pretty sweet.

A UA hypertext spellcaster can learn the Anyspell at level 3 and the level Anyspell greater which grant the class a few more spell options with a spell book and 15 minutes.

Magic items are really dependent on your class levels for the best synergy.

The craft wonderous item feat or leadership feat in your build can increase your magic items for you and your party.

Starsinger
2007-06-13, 11:03 PM
Charisma to Armor Class still applies, which is the only part of Ascetic Mage I was thinking of.

Toliudar
2007-06-13, 11:22 PM
I'd echo Favoured Soul on the other side. Depending on your spell selections, it could provide good buffing to go with the sorcerer's offense, and the MAD is not as bad.

Douglas
2007-06-13, 11:33 PM
Swordsage. The major limit for gestalt optimization is actions per round, so the greatest benefits from the second side are usually passive. Swordsage gives wisdom to AC, which can be converted to charisma to AC by Ascetic Mage, and also gets you (improved) evasion eventually, an initiative bonus, and a stance. The active maneuvers are just gravy.

Bagera
2007-06-13, 11:43 PM
For good unarmed fighting consider going druid.

Draz74
2007-06-14, 12:37 AM
If you're going to use a Tome of Battle class, maybe Crusader would be better than Swordsage? Seems like it would be more Charisma synergy. Plus, you know, full BAB and stuff.

Ponce
2007-06-14, 12:38 AM
Swordsage is a martial class. Gestalting that with sorcerer results in having a melee gestalt character who does not have full BAB. Bad idea, in my opinion.

Full-blown divine spellcasting that uses the same stat as your sorcerer will provide better ways to defend yourself than to add your charisma to your AC. If you really want the AC bonus, take a level of Monk. The Swordsage route requires two levels of a class that won't really service you (as opposed to one level of a class that won't really service you), and you need to blow a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike (pretty useless, but at least the monk gets it for free), unless I am mistaken. You might also get the flat AC bonus from Monk (as a result of your sorc levels stacking), depending on how your DM wants to play the feat.

Taking the Archmage PrC would work well with Favored Soul, as the spellcasting bonuses are general, and not necessarily limited to the arcane spellcasting (such as Arcane Reach).

Amusingly enough, if you really want to run around with some barbaric weapon and smack things around for direct damage, use the Favored Soul levels to cast Divine Power and other such fun things. Toss around Greater Mighty Wallop and any other buffs that strike your fancy and go get em, tiger. You could also cast it on your bare fists if you take the Monk level. Yar.

TheOOB
2007-06-14, 12:48 AM
There arn't all that many classes that gestalt well with sorcerer. Paladin and Blackguard do well, as does the favored soul(and other CHA based casters). Thing is, you need a class that has some CHA synergy, and also covers some of your weaknesses. It shold also be noted that in getsalt, playing a combat character without a full BAB is rather pointless. Gestalt characters tend to fight higher level opponents then their non-gestalt counterparts, so low BABs, Hit Die, and Saves hurt a lot.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-14, 01:25 AM
Cleric//Druid for the ultimate in casting and melee.

Ponce
2007-06-14, 01:42 AM
Cleric//Druid for the ultimate in casting and melee.


I've decided on Sorcerer/X.

Wouldn't Cleric//Wizard be better at casting and making melee redundant anyway?

Random NPC
2007-06-14, 02:18 AM
Sorcerer//Cleric 3 levels. then go Mystic Theurge//Monk with the ascetic mage feat for the remaining 3 levels.

Nice spellcasting while having +1 AC Bonus

Callix
2007-06-14, 04:41 AM
need at least Sor4 to qualify for theurge, and it's strongly reccomended to disallow theurge in UA section on gestalt.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-06-14, 04:55 AM
Sorcerer//Cleric 3 levels. then go Mystic Theurge//Monk with the ascetic mage feat for the remaining 3 levels.

Nice spellcasting while having +1 AC Bonus

Where's Morbo when you need him to say "Gestalt does not work that way!"?
Can't take hybrid classes.

Turcano
2007-06-14, 04:59 AM
Where's Morbo when you need him to say "Gestalt does not work that way!"?
Can't take hybrid classes.

I aim to please:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e100/Dhavaer/morbo.jpg
GESTALT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

Dhavaer
2007-06-14, 05:18 AM
Ranger. You will have all good saves, 6 + Int skill points, full BAB and d8 hit die. The class abilities aren't a brilliant match, but Hide in Plain Sight combines very well with a spellcaster. Evasion's pretty handy, as well.

ravenkith
2007-06-14, 09:21 AM
An Elven Sorc//Ranger build, Tricked out for archery, that goes into Abjurant Champion for 5 levels on the Sorceror Side ASAP, after which, you trade out ranger levels for 3 levels of Arcane Archer, at the end of which you trade out Sorc levels for Archmage levels, picking up Mastery of Shaping and Mastery of Elements in the process.

Sorc 1//Ranger 1
Sorc 5//Ranger 2
Sorc 5//Ranger 3
Sorc 5//Ranger 4
Sorc 5//Ranger 5
Sorc 5/Abjurant Champion 1//Ranger 6
Sorc 5/Abjurant Champion 2//Ranger 7
Sorc 5/Abjurant Champion 3//Ranger 8
Sorc 5/Abjurant Champion 4//Ranger 9
Sorc 5/Abjurant Champion 5//Ranger 10
Sorc 6/Abjurant Champion 5//Ranger 10/Arcane Archer 1
Sorc 7/Abjurant Champion 5//Ranger 10/Arcane Archer 2
Sorc 8/Abjurant Champion 5//Ranger 10/Arcane Archer 3
Sorc 9/Abjurant Champion 5//Ranger 11/Arcane Archer 3
Sorc 10/Abjurant Champion 5//Ranger 12/Arcane Archer 3
Sorc 11/Abjurant Champion 5//Ranger 13/Arcane Archer 3
Sorc 12/Abjurant Champion 5//Ranger 14/Arcane Archer 3
Sorc 13/Abjurant Champion 5//Ranger 15/Arcane Archer 3
Sorc 13/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 1//Ranger 16/Arcane Archer 3
Sorc 13/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 2//Ranger 17/Arcane Archer 3

Full progression casting on the one side of the equation, with various nifty abilities added in, while on the other side, you have full BAB, good saves across all the levels for all three (Fort & Ref thanks to range and arcarch, and will thanks to the caster side), a d8 hd at every level, the ranger weapon proficencies, armor class thanks to the abjurant champ, Divine ranger spells, spontaneous arcane spells...

blah blah blah.

I've not done the math on the feats yet, but it might be a bit tight. :( The earlier you can work in the archmage levels, the more devastating you'll be.

The real beauty of the build is the capability to take area spells and put them into your arrows...which includes fireball.

Fireball, which, with master of elements, can be turned into acid, electric, snow, or sonic ball.

Combined with mastery of shaping, this can be a very powerful ability to have.

Let us also not forget, delayed blast fireball, or prismatic spray at later levels, both of which are viable candidates for these Archmage abilities, and inclusion in an arcane archer imbue arrow attack.

Combine these with the feat that lets you change a spell's original shape, and you can really wreak some havoc.

Neon Knight
2007-06-14, 09:52 AM
Well, I appreciate the effort. A lot of nice builds suggested. However, Sorcerer/Monk with Ascetic Mage fits the concept best.

Now, I've never played monk before. Watch this thread magically change to a billion noob questions about Monks! How do I get the most out of my Monk, and what items should I grab? Any good monk guides out there?

P.S. Forgot to ask about Swordsage/Monk. How would that be?

ravenkith
2007-06-14, 10:06 AM
Woof.

You're going to be in for some pain, my friend.

Monks....well, lets just say that they aren't very good at what they are supposed to do.

Up to 5th level they don't hit enough, what with their non-spectacular BAB, and after tenth they just can't deal enough damage.

They're also weak on the damage-taking side, without serious help, thanks to their D8 hd, and inability to wear armor whatsoever.

Granted you'll be able to avoid SOME of the mad, due to the CHA instead of WIS thing, but you'll still be quite poor in combat.

In addition, the skills and skill points are a weak point, comparitively.

If you do go Sorceror//Monk, I strongly suggest including levels of Abjurant Champion ASAP, to offset the armor weaknesses you have, and the bab problems.

In a gestalt game, you have to try and find as many weaknesses as possible in your build, and put measures in place to get rid of, or at least offset, those weaknesses.

Sorceror has weak HD, crap BAB, no skills to speak of, next to no weapon or armor skills, is short on feats, and completely lacks stealth.

Monk has crap for bab, next to no weapon or armor skills, is short on feats and short on skills, but does give you stealth capabilities, if not the SPs to spend on em...

Really, the only thing you're getting out of monk are the saves and the CHA to AC. IMHO, not reason enough to take the class, especially when playing in gestalt, where the difference between a good combination and a bad combination is often character death.

Douglas
2007-06-14, 10:18 AM
P.S. Forgot to ask about Swordsage/Monk. How would that be?
Swordsage is, in a lot of ways, Monk, but better. Evasion is delayed to higher levels and you don't get the faster movement speed, but the wisdom-to-AC works in light armor (maybe not quite so great for a Sorcerer), you get a free initiative bonus, and the maneuvers and stances are vastly more useful than flurry of blows and a few stunning blows. You can have the stance of your choice active at all times at no cost, and you can focus on counters and other swift/immediate action maneuvers without cutting into your spellcasting actions at all.

Neon Knight
2007-06-14, 10:41 AM
Hmmm...

Maybe Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer)/Swordsage?

Douglas
2007-06-14, 10:41 AM
Monks....well, lets just say that they aren't very good at what they are supposed to do.
His character is primarily a Sorcerer. The Monk side in a build like this is there almost entirely for the passive bonuses and synergy.


Up to 5th level they don't hit enough, what with their non-spectacular BAB, and after tenth they just can't deal enough damage.
He'll be casting spells. His ability to hit with attacks is almost completely irrelevant.


They're also weak on the damage-taking side, without serious help, thanks to their D8 hd, and inability to wear armor whatsoever.
He's a Sorcerer. He wouldn't be wearing armor anyway because of spell failure. d8 is a huge step up from d4 HD, and evasion and higher AC will help a lot.


Granted you'll be able to avoid SOME of the mad, due to the CHA instead of WIS thing, but you'll still be quite poor in combat.
Er, full caster?


In addition, the skills and skill points are a weak point, comparitively.
4 skill points per level is a fair bit better than many other options. 6 (Swordsage) would be even better.


If you do go Sorceror//Monk, I strongly suggest including levels of Abjurant Champion ASAP, to offset the armor weaknesses you have, and the bab problems.
Good idea in almost any build that qualifies for it, but it's not really necessary.


In a gestalt game, you have to try and find as many weaknesses as possible in your build, and put measures in place to get rid of, or at least offset, those weaknesses.
His primary class is Sorcerer. Very few classes give major benefits that do not require spending some of his valuable standard actions that could be used casting spells instead. Monk and Swordsage do.


Sorceror has weak HD, crap BAB, no skills to speak of, next to no weapon or armor skills, is short on feats, and completely lacks stealth.

Monk has crap for bab, next to no weapon or armor skills, is short on feats and short on skills, but does give you stealth capabilities, if not the SPs to spend on em...
He's a full caster, he cares very little about BAB. He's a full caster, weapons are superfluous. He's an arcane caster, he's not going to be wearing armor even if he could because of spell failure, proficiency with it is irrelevant. There is no class that I'm aware of that he could take on the other side of gestalt that wouldn't be short on feats that he'd actually care about, being a full caster. Stealth... how about Invisibility? Granted, that doesn't cover Move Silently, but you have no idea how often he's going to need stealth, as that is very campaign dependent.


Really, the only thing you're getting out of monk are the saves and the CHA to AC. IMHO, not reason enough to take the class, especially when playing in gestalt, where the difference between a good combination and a bad combination is often character death.
Pretty much all the alternatives that do better in areas he actually cares about concentrate much more on active abilities. For the second side of Gestalt, passive is king, and that's what Monk has.

Almost all of this post applies to Swordsage just as well as Monk, and Swordsage would be a vastly superior choice imo.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-14, 10:58 AM
Well, I appreciate the effort. A lot of nice builds suggested. However, Sorcerer/Monk with Ascetic Mage fits the concept best.

Now, I've never played monk before. Watch this thread magically change to a billion noob questions about Monks! How do I get the most out of my Monk, and what items should I grab? Any good monk guides out there?

P.S. Forgot to ask about Swordsage/Monk. How would that be?

Since you are playing gestalt consider playing a Spellcaster/Monk with Wisdom as your primary attribute for spellcasting and the wisdom bonus to AC it just gives you a few more options with your spell and skill choices.

You might consider leveling up in the Fist of Zoukeen PRC and pick up some psionic abilities (1 a level with 2 known pis powers per level of level one to five for 10 total with 71 PP at the end of the PRC with a primary attribute of Wis) with many of your monk abilities stacking and being able to psionically augment some of your combat abilites.

You can check out the Wizard's boards for some incredible Tome of Battle builds.

Neon Knight
2007-06-14, 11:00 AM
Since you are playing gestalt consider playing a Spellcaster/Monk with Wisdom as your primary attribute for spellcasting and the wisdom bonus to AC it just gives you a few more options with your spell and skill choices.

You might consider leveling up in the Fist of Zoukeen PRC and pick up some psionic abilities (1 a level with 2 known pis powers per level of level one to five and 71 PP at the end of the PRC with a primary attribute of Wis) with many of your monk abilities stacking and psionically augmenting some of your combat abilites.

I believe I mentioned the Ascetic Mage feat, which allows me to change that Wis bonus to Ac to a Cha bonus to Ac, which fits my Sorcerer.

I don't like Clerics much.

Where is this Fist of Zoukeen found?

brian c
2007-06-14, 11:10 AM
Hmmm...

Maybe Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer)/Swordsage?

As I said before, that's probably the best idea for you. If you're looking at being more of a gish, definitely pick up Jade Phoenix Mage for full BAB, 8/10 casting progression, good fort save and nifty special abilities. Battle Sorcerer lets you cast in light armor, which you'd wear as a Swordsage and still get Wis to AC- Ascetic Mage lets you change that to Cha in theory, though that's really intended for Monks so depending on your DM there might be a small chance of it getting shot down. That said, Battle Sorcerer also limits spells known and spells/day by giving you better BAB (which Swordsage gets anyway) and better HD (which Swordsage gets anyway), so don't do it unless you really want to wear light armor.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-14, 11:17 AM
I believe I mentioned the Ascetic Mage feat, which allows me to change that Wis bonus to Ac to a Cha bonus to Ac, which fits my Sorcerer.

I don't like Clerics much.

Where is this Fist of Zoukeen found?


You are playing gestalt and wish to play a spellcasting monk. Why burn a feat because your primary abilites for your classes do not synergize?

You can have just as much or more fun playing a "Spellcaster" instead of a sorcerer and be more effective with your party going as a wisdom based spellcaster.

A generic "Spellcaster" is a sorcerer class fix not a Cleric. It grants you the option of choosing which mental stat is your primary ability.

Since you are going Monk on one side Wisdom would probably be the best choice as your primary ability.

Going Spellcaster would normally be better than going plain sorcerer since the primary abilit for both classes would be Wisdom not Wisdom and Charisma.

As an added bennie you would be able to choose from both arcane and the divine spell lists. You have limited known spells but there are some gems on both sides. Since it sounds like you want to be in the middle of combat in game. Choosing spells like Divine Favor or Fast Healing 1 for level one spells could be nicer than choosing all arcane spells as a sorcerer. Two nice level one spells not normally available to sorcerers while getting to choose all the sorcerer spells for known spells.

You could take the Anyspell and or Anyspell Greater would grant the PC a lot more spellcasting options in game for a modest amount of gold without a wizard in the party as you would only keep a spell book for a few useful spells. Nice option if not dipping into Mage of the Arcane Order or equivalent to save feats on your sorcerer/spellcaster side.

Fist of Zoukeen is a 10 level PRC form the Expanded Psionics Book.

Neon Knight
2007-06-14, 11:20 AM
Wouldn't that let me wear a Mithral Breastplate with no spell failure?

And CASTLEMIKE, where the heck are you getting this?

Starsinger
2007-06-14, 11:22 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm there's the SRD Psionic Fist (same thing, generic name) Although, I don't think it would be allowed in Gestalt, since it's a hybrid class (Monk/Psy-warrior)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm They're also in Unearthed Arcana, if your DM would prefer, although this does come from the SRD.

brian c
2007-06-14, 11:24 AM
Wouldn't that let me wear a Mithral Breastplate with no spell failure?

And CASTLEMIKE, where the heck are you getting this?

the Spellcaster is in the Generic Classes Variant in Unearthed Arcana, and also in the hypertext d20 SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm). It is officially published by WotC, but your DM might not let you do it, especially if the rest of the party is playing non-generic characters.



Edit: Yeah, i just read it over and you have to choose to be a Divine spellcaster with Wisdom, or an Arcane spellcaster with either Int or Cha. Divine would be basically a cleric, but you could choose some other ability instead of Turn Undead. You'd get Divine spells only, with no spell failure.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-14, 11:26 AM
Wouldn't that let me wear a Mithral Breastplate with no spell failure?

And CASTLEMIKE, where the heck are you getting this?

No guys you need to read the full text sure they gave it a flavor of divine if you choose wisdom but All spellcasters have all the known spell lists to choose their spells from.

Spellcasters and Gestalt are from UA (Unearthed Arcana) and were incorporated in the Hypertext D20 SRD document.

Spellcasters did not receive armor proficiencies unless you were to go with a Battle variant like Battle Spellcaster or Battle Sorcerer. Not the best option with your intended build as it would mostly lower daily spellcasting and known spells.

Another bennie of going spellcaster was you got to choose where to put your best save which adds nothing to a monk build with all good saves.

In many ways it would defeat the purpose of going monk and receiving your "unarmored" AC wisdom bonus which stacks with Mage Armor or psionic Inertial armor as just going gestalt doesn't change how that ability works.

Neon Knight
2007-06-14, 11:33 AM
Well, that clears it up a bit. Actually, the Sorcerer bit was the only assured part of my build. I was looking for something that could give me some degree of unarmed fighting ability. A Swordsage could do that. Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, Desert Wind, Shadow Hand.... a guy could get a heart attack from all those juicy maneuvers and stances. I'm pretty sure you can do strikes with unarmed attacks, seeing as one of the favored weapons for Setting Sun is the unarmed strike.

EDIT: I just checked, and UA Generic and Psionics aren't allowed. No go there.

The main question on my lips is: Do medium armors made with Mithral count as light for purpose of wisdom (or charisma) bonus to AC? (For swordsage)

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-14, 11:34 AM
Well, that clears it up a bit. Actually, the Sorcerer bit was the only assured part of my build. I was looking for something that could give me some degree of unarmed fighting ability. A Swordsage could do that. Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, Desert Wind, Shadow Hand.... a guy could get a heart attack from all those juicy maneuvers and stances. I'm pretty sure you can do strikes with unarmed attacks, seeing as one of the favored weapons for Setting Sun is the unarmed strike.

EDIT: I just checked, and UA and Psionics aren't allowed. No go there.

The main question on my lips is: Do medium armors made with Mithral count as light for purpose of wisdom (or charisma) bonus to AC? (For swordsage)

Yes it does and that is to bad as Gestalt rules come from both sources.

10 levels of Fist of Zoukeen is nothing compare to most of the Tome of Battle builds (Little things like improving Inertial Armor AC with more power points or Vigor for extra temporary hit points). Check out the Wizard's board for some of the Tome of Battle builds. They are insane in comparison.

Neon Knight
2007-06-14, 11:36 AM
If he allowed it, I would go spellcaster. Since he doesn't, I'm gonna see if Battle Sorcerer/Swordsage will fly. More later after I get a reply.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-14, 11:39 AM
A Swordsage build could be killer particularly if used for dips. Check out those Wizard's boards when you get some time.

Starsinger
2007-06-14, 11:40 AM
Sorcerer//SwordSage isn't a bad choice, especially since it gives you two options, blast something with magic, or blast something with maneuvers. :smallamused: Jade Phoenix Mage would be a good choice, but you'd have to juggle Sorcerer//JPM/Swordsage//JPM depending on when you'd gain a +1 to spellcasting from Jade Phoenix Mage.

But you'd get some stances which aid in casting, and the ever useful capstone ability. Which, makes a terrific panic button. If you're surrounded and about to die...

Neon Knight
2007-06-14, 12:07 PM
Jade Phoenix Mage is tempting...

If I where to go that way, would my build run something like Sorcerer 4(with an effective casting level of 5)/Jade Phoenix Mage 2// Swordsage 6?

Draz74
2007-06-14, 12:09 PM
Yeah, sounds like your best choices are:

Sorcerer//Swordsage. Great, except that I don't think most DMs will allow Ascetic Mage to work for the Swordsage, so you'll have to have high Wisdom AND Charisma. Still could be very worthwhile, especially if you concentrate on Boosts, Counters, and Stances, not Strikes (so you can spend your standard actions casting spells). See if you can pick up the Twilight ability (from Book of Exalted Deeds or PHBII) on your mithral chain shirt, so you can cast in light armor with no problems. Jade Phoenix Mage is the kind of PrC I'd stay away from in Gestalt, as it's too close to being a "combo" PrC. I'd concentrate on heading into Archmage (after Level 14) instead.

Sorcerer//Monk 2/???. Monk is great in Gestalt, but you get most of the best stuff out of it from a 2-level dip. Get Ascetic Mage for sure ... and then go into some full-BAB, Charisma-using class for the other levels. Knight and Crusader seem promising.

Starsinger
2007-06-14, 12:13 PM
The wording of Ascetic Mage doesn't exclude sword sage, and isn't monk only, it says "If you get your wisdom to AC (such as a monk)". Swordsages get wisdom to armor class. Therefore, a Swordsage with Ascetic Mage gets Charisma to armor class.

ravenkith
2007-06-14, 12:27 PM
His character is primarily a Sorcerer. The Monk side in a build like this is there almost entirely for the passive bonuses and synergy.


What passive bonuses? What synergy? Oh, yeah, right, saves and wisdom to ac. Synergy? None, without using a feat to make it CHA to AC instead of WIS to ac.



He'll be casting spells. His ability to hit with attacks is almost completely irrelevant.


Urm no. First, spells run out. Not as often for a sorceror as for a wizard, but they do run out.

Second: some spells require attack rolls. It really sucks when you pop a fourth level spell and miss because of your crappy BAB, instead of making something drt.



He's a Sorcerer. He wouldn't be wearing armor anyway because of spell failure. d8 is a huge step up from d4 HD, and evasion and higher AC will help a lot.


Twilight armor is very useful at later levels, and can be enchanted in ways that make it superior to simple defensive spells.

d8 is a big step up. Note that this wasn't one of the things i criticized about the monk class.

Without taking a feat, the higher AC requires that he have a positive mod wisdom...in addition to the high charisma, reasonable intelligence, high dex and reasonable con and strength, adds up to absolutely no 'dump stats'. With a Monk/Sorceror, you need above a ten on pretty much everything. Even with the feat, he's still going to have problems.

Evasion. Yeah, great. Save for none on reflex instead of half. You get it at 2nd level of monk, why are you taking 20 levels again?



Er, full caster?


Yay! But this is gestalt. Relying on your casting for everything is a mistake. You need to have a back-up plan...and guess what?

Spells run out. Especially at lower levels.

Eventually the bad guys will close to melee.



4 skill points per level is a fair bit better than many other options. 6 (Swordsage) would be even better.


6 or 8 is highly preferable. Don't forget to take a look at which skills the combined classes actually give you access to.

I'm not familiar with swordsage, so....

Ranger, for instance, is far superior to Monk, in that it gives you access to way more skills that aren't already on your list, and grants you 6/level.

Rogue is the ultimate skill king, but the HD and BAB are contraindicated for a sorceror combo.



Good idea in almost any build that qualifies for it, but it's not really necessary.


Are you kidding me? <SLAP>.

NEVER GO FULL SORCEROR.

NEVER.

Always take a full progression caster PrC. The only thing you get out of levels of sorceror are caster levels and familiar progression.

The best default PrC for sorceror is Abjurant Champion, as it is full caster, full bab, d10 HD, fort and ref strong saves, and free feats and special abilities loaded.

Taking the class automatically doubles the duration of your protection spells and increases their value by up to 5 points per (which my group interprets to include mage armor and greater mage armor, as seems to have been intended).

There is never any reason not to take Abjurant Champion when playing a sorceror, if you aren't aiming for some other PrC.

Even then, most times you can still work it in, because of it's relatively low requirements.



His primary class is Sorcerer. Very few classes give major benefits that do not require spending some of his valuable standard actions that could be used casting spells instead. Monk and Swordsage do.


I would argue that monk does not give major benefits.

I would also say that there are more than just monk and swordsage out there for him.

I can't really comment on the value of swordsage, as I don't yet have that particular book...



He's a full caster, he cares very little about BAB. He's a full caster, weapons are superfluous. He's an arcane caster, he's not going to be wearing armor even if he could because of spell failure, proficiency with it is irrelevant.


That all depends on what claasses he takes, what he's trying to achive, and what items you're talking about.

For a gish caster (melee+magic), often times armor is a very viable option, what with the advent of mithril twilight chain shirts.



There is no class that I'm aware of that he could take on the other side of gestalt that wouldn't be short on feats that he'd actually care about, being a full caster. Stealth... how about Invisibility? Granted, that doesn't cover Move Silently, but you have no idea how often he's going to need stealth, as that is very campaign dependent.


Sorry, invisibility is how many times a day? And what spells are you giving up to cast that...? Knock for instance?

Personally, I'd rather use the MS and Hide skills for stealth and save those level two spells for busting open doors or chests instead of using disintegrates or other means, and risking whatever might be in a given chest.

Plus, spells have a duration.



Pretty much all the alternatives that do better in areas he actually cares about concentrate much more on active abilities. For the second side of Gestalt, passive is king, and that's what Monk has.


Monk's ok. Other things are better.



Almost all of this post applies to Swordsage just as well as Monk, and Swordsage would be a vastly superior choice imo.

Ok. Haven't read it, couldn't say.

So, basically, he's taking Monk for evasion, two saves, and the d8 HD?

For 20 levels...

Hrm....

Either Druid or Archer Ranger would be superior to Monk, from the core book.

Arguably Favored Soul, if you house rule the crappy "I have to have two stats to cast well" bull...

Dragon Shaman might be good...can't recall all the specifics...

The big problem is, you're taking two of the weaker classes from the PHB and putting them together.

Other people will not be gimping themselves similarly.

Oh, and Sorceror/Abjurant Champion//Rogue/Telflammar Shadowlord is extremely hard to kill, has insane skills, two good saves, evasion, trap sense, rogue special abilities, and, with an eye twoards playing intelligently, is next to impossible to permenantly kill after a certain level.

Draz74
2007-06-14, 12:44 PM
What passive bonuses? What synergy? Oh, yeah, right, saves and wisdom to ac. Synergy? None, without using a feat to make it CHA to AC instead of WIS to ac.

IF he takes Monk, he will certainly take the feat.


Evasion. Yeah, great. Save for none on reflex instead of half. You get it at 2nd level of monk, why are you taking 20 levels again?

Yeah. IF he takes Monk, he should only dip into it.


The best default PrC for sorceror is Abjurant Champion, as it is full caster, full bab, d10 HD, fort and ref strong saves, and free feats and special abilities loaded.

Sounds cheesy. If I were the player in question, I'd avoid this PrC for that reason alone.


I can't really comment on the value of swordsage, as I don't yet have that particular book...

It's good.


Sorry, invisibility is how many times a day? And what spells are you giving up to cast that...? Knock for instance?

Oh no! You mean the party rogue might actually have to take ranks in Open Lock! :smallamused: In any case, Swordsage has good skill points and can Hide/Move Silently.


Dragon Shaman might be good...can't recall all the specifics...

Hmmmm ... probably a weak option, but very interesting and fun. I would be tempted to try it. But then my group would probably hate me for being semi-useless.


The big problem is, you're taking two of the weaker classes from the PHB and putting them together.

Um ... other than the "big three" (CoDzilla and Wizard), Sorcerer is almost certainly the strongest PHB class. By a long shot.

Oh, and I stand corrected in my earlier post: Ascetic Mage certainly should work for Swordsage after all. It's "Arcane Strike Lite" and "Charisma bonus (instead of Wis) to AC while wearing light armor" all rolled into one feat. Nice!

Neon Knight
2007-06-14, 12:44 PM
Abjurant Champion? What book is that in?

For the record, I possess the 3 core, Tome of Battle, and Complete Warrior.

Anyway, I resent you calling sorcerer one of the weaker PHB classes. It's certainly better than any melee. It is merely the weakest caster.

Swordsage will cover the bill. Any Tome of Battle class is vastly superior to the core melee classes. I may even take a bit of Jade Phoenix Mage, which is a prestige martial/arcane class. Might be disallowed, might not.

brian c
2007-06-14, 12:46 PM
Jade Phoenix Mage is tempting...

If I where to go that way, would my build run something like Sorcerer 4(with an effective casting level of 5)/Jade Phoenix Mage 2// Swordsage 6?

EXCEPT Jade Phoenix Mage prereq is Concentration 9 ranks, so you have to be level 6 to get into it. Probably more like Sorcerer 6//Swordsage 6 and then add levels as either JPM/Sorc or JPM/Swordsage, depending if it's a JPM level that gives spellcasting.



@ravenkith: Calm down man. No need to slap anyone. Also, since you've said that you're not familiar with swordsage, just take my word for it that it's a lot better than Monk, especially in this case. The argument against monk is pretty much a moot point right now.

Neon Knight
2007-06-14, 01:05 PM
Hmmmm...

Considering a quick Monk dip on the Swordsage side. A 1 level dip would net me Improved Unarmed Strike, better Fort Save, Bonus feat (either Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple), 1d6 unarmed damage.

I'd lose a single maneuver known and readied.

Wary about the two level dip. I'd lose 2 to initiative, 2 manuvers known, 2 maneuvers readied, and a stance.

I'd gain evasion, more better fort save (me engrish are good!) and a bonus feat (combat reflexes or snatch arrows, bleh.)

Thoughts?

Starsinger
2007-06-14, 01:08 PM
It'd stick with the level 1 dip of monk, since it's essentially getting Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude for free. The level two hurts a bit more than what you gain.

brian c
2007-06-14, 01:29 PM
Hmmmm...

Considering a quick Monk dip on the Swordsage side. A 1 level dip would net me Improved Unarmed Strike, better Fort Save, Bonus feat (either Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple), 1d6 unarmed damage.

I'd lose a single maneuver known and readied.

Wary about the two level dip. I'd lose 2 to initiative, 2 manuvers known, 2 maneuvers readied, and a stance.

I'd gain evasion, more better fort save (me engrish are good!) and a bonus feat (combat reflexes or snatch arrows, bleh.)

Thoughts?

Unarmed variant of Swordsage gives you Improved Unarmed Strike and the same unarmed damage progression of a monk. All you get for a one level dip is stunning fist and good saves, which is probably still worth it. 2nd level of monk doesn't add to saves and has pretty blah feats, plus you get evasion from Swordsage already. Stick to one level of monk

ravenkith
2007-06-14, 01:48 PM
Yeah, AbChamp is pretty cheesy.

But he's playing Gestalt.

Clearly, his group has no objections to cheesy.

(BTW, Ab Champ is in Complete mage. Also, available here (http://home.hawaii.rr.com/mindysj/ppabjurant_champion.htm). (Does not explain special abilities, but gives you an idea).

I apologise for getting slap-happy, but anytime you take twenty levels of Sorceror, you're just hurting yourself...and the rest of the group.

Familiar progression is not worth what any PrC offers, as long as said PrC has full progression spell casting.

Knock was just an example. Scorching Ray, Protection From Arrows, Glitterdust, Touch of Idiocy and all the buff spells are also second level. My point was, using invisibility instead of the hide skill is using up a spell slot you could (and probably should) be doing something else with.

Unless you're planning on spamming summons, invisibility ain't that great anyways. Strictly speaking, fly or spider climb are far superior, because they provide a measure of protection against meleers while not interfering with your ability to cast offensively.

IF he takes the feat, that's one less that could be spent elsewhere.

Dip monk? Sure? 20 levels? Hell no.

brian c
2007-06-14, 02:24 PM
Dip monk? Sure? 20 levels? Hell no.

Okay, I think we all agree that monk should be a one level dip, if anything.



I've always liked Eldritch Knight, PrC in the DMG that gives I think 8/10 caster levels, but also full BAB and a bonus feat. The lost caster levels are easier to deal with in Gestalt since you just make sure you have a caster level on the other side. True it's not as powerful as Abjurant Champion, but AbjChamp is only 5 levels, so if you run out of that and need something else (if you even get to a high enough level) then you could try Eldritch Knight.

So, my suggestion for you is a little something like this:

first, start off with

Sorcerer 6//Unarmed Swordsage 6, focus on Desert Wind, Diamond Mind and Setting Sun.

Then, the first level of Jade Phoenix Mage is without +spellcasting, so have it opposite the Sorc for

Sorcerer 7//Swordsage 6/JPM 1

the next 4 JPM have casting, so put those on the sorc side and pick up your level in Monk concurrent with JPM 5 (which has no saves increase, but Monk 1 gives you +2/+2/+2)

Sorcerer 7/JPM 4 // Swordsage 6/JPM 1/Swordsage 3/Monk 1

Next level of JPM is without spells, and you have BAB +5 so take Abjurant Champion (if you're allowed)

Sorcerer 7/JPM 4/AbjChamp 1 // Swordsage 6/JPM 1/Swordsage 3/Monk 1/JPM 1

Next four JPM have casting, so get up to

Sorcerer 7/JPM 4/AbjChamp 1/JPM 4 // Swordsage 6/JPM 1/Swordsage 3/Monk 1/JPM 1/Swordsage 4

and you're at ECL 16. You're done with Jade Phoenix Mage, so get one side to be a full-spellcasting PrC such as Abjurant Champion or Eldritch Knight, and the other side can continue Swordsage or even go into Master of the Nine if you think you're cool enough :)

Neon Knight
2007-06-14, 04:56 PM
Unarmed variant of Swordsage gives you Improved Unarmed Strike and the same unarmed damage progression of a monk. All you get for a one level dip is stunning fist and good saves, which is probably still worth it. 2nd level of monk doesn't add to saves and has pretty blah feats, plus you get evasion from Swordsage already. Stick to one level of monk

Where is the unarmed swordsage variant found?

selfcritical
2007-06-14, 05:20 PM
Hrm....

Either Druid or Archer Ranger would be superior to Monk, from the core book.

Arguably Favored Soul, if you house rule the crappy "I have to have two stats to cast well" bull...

Dragon Shaman might be good...can't recall all the specifics...

The big problem is, you're taking two of the weaker classes from the PHB and putting them together.

Other people will not be gimping themselves similarly.

Oh, and Sorceror/Abjurant Champion//Rogue/Telflammar Shadowlord is extremely hard to kill, has insane skills, two good saves, evasion, trap sense, rogue special abilities, and, with an eye twoards playing intelligently, is next to impossible to permenantly kill after a certain level.

Dragon Shaman has the advantage of being very thematic for sorceror characters that were going with the "I have dragon blood" theme, and the breath weapon gives you some AoE you can spam every 1d4 rounds to help conserve spells. Good hit dice, middling BaB bonus, but then you get the aura's.........which take no actions and automatically aid the party.

Douglas
2007-06-14, 08:21 PM
Where is the unarmed swordsage variant found?
Right at the end of the Swordsage section in Tome of Battle, under the Adaptation heading on page 20. You lose light armor proficiency but gain the Monk's unarmed strike progression. Note that it makes no mention of changing the restrictions for the wisdom to AC ability, so the only potential penalty here (on this side of the gestalt) for wearing light armor is nonproficiency, which is dependent entirely on the armor check penalty. A Mithral breastplate has an ACP of -1, not a big deal most of the time. If you really don't want that penalty, just lose 1 point of AC and downgrade to a mithral chain shirt with its -0 ACP.

Yes, Monk is primarily a dip class, but this character isn't starting out very high level so the difference isn't very big yet. Swordsage, aka "what the Monk should have been", is both vastly superior and most definitely not a dip class.

Neon Knight
2007-06-14, 08:34 PM
Mkay. So my build is Monk 1/ Swordsage 5//Sorcerer 6. I have 9,050 gold. What items are a must have?

Jack_Simth
2007-06-14, 09:16 PM
Mkay. So my build is Monk 1/ Swordsage 5//Sorcerer 6. I have 9,050 gold. What items are a must have?
Cloak of Charisma +2 (4,000 gp) - DMG
Vest of Resistance +2 (4,000 gp) - Complete Adventurer, I think - basically a Cloak of Resistance in the vest slot
Bat Familiar (100 gp) - for the Blindsense; you get Speak With Familiar at 5th, so the Familiar can tell you where the invisible enemy is hiding for a quick Glitterdust / other Area effect spell
If you don't have Invisibility as a spell known, you'll want a scroll of it, at 150 gp. - DMG, for Emergencies
Wand of Cure Light Wounds (750 gp) - DMG - Yes, I know you can't use it yourself. It's there to reduce the out of combat burden on the Cleric.

Assuming one Scroll of Invisibility, that brings you to 9,000 gp even.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-14, 11:09 PM
Are you taking Craft wonderous item to extend your magic items?

If not some combination of:

Cloak of Charisma +2 4,000 GP, +1 vest for 1,000 GP, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, Two religious talismans with fast healing 1 each usable once a day for 600 GP total (300 GP each), a 150 GP prorated wand of fast healing 1 with 10 charges (use after using the talismans and party healing spells ), maybe a Bag/Pouch of trail rations for 750 GP and rations become a non isssue, a few other prorated level one wands with back up spells to taste normally 150 GP for 10 charges. One or two First level Pearls of Power at 1,000 GP usable by any spellcaster. A Heward's handy Haversack to carry your stuff 2,000 GP.

An assortment of temporary magic items particularly scrolls to complement your known spells.

The party should chip in for the Druid or Ranger in your party to have a Tan Bag of Tricks available for the most utility,

Neon Knight
2007-06-14, 11:56 PM
Well, character is done. Thanks to everybody who contributed.

My end AC (before defensive spells) turned out to be 24. How's that?

Jack_Simth
2007-06-15, 06:12 AM
Well, character is done. Thanks to everybody who contributed.

My end AC (before defensive spells) turned out to be 24. How's that?

Eh, reasonable for 6th, assuming you'll pretty much always have Mage Armor up that you don't count. Most things at CR 6-8 will be hitting you roughly half the time at AC 28. And you're supposed to stay in the back, anyway.

Oh, I'm curious - are you set up to do the Extended Rope Trick combo?

ImperiousLeader
2007-06-15, 07:57 AM
I apologise for getting slap-happy, but anytime you take twenty levels of Sorceror, you're just hurting yourself...and the rest of the group.

Not in Gestalt. Honestly, the man's got Complete Warrior, and no one pointed him to the advantage of CW prestige classes?

Check out the Master of the Unseen Hand, the Mindspy and the Warshaper. None of them offer any caster progression, making them poor ideas in normal games. But they offer some awesome bonuses to someone who maintains his caster abilities through gestalt, especially for a sorcerer who specializes in a few spells known.

Oh, and is Jade Phoenix Mage legal in Gestalt? I thought it was a combo class like Eldritch Knight and therefore not eligible.

Shades of Gray
2007-06-15, 08:25 AM
i've heard this term more and more lately. I just gotta ask this, What is a gestalt?

ImperiousLeader
2007-06-15, 08:41 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

TO_Incognito
2007-06-15, 08:47 AM
Eh, reasonable for 6th, assuming you'll pretty much always have Mage Armor up that you don't count. Most things at CR 6-8 will be hitting you roughly half the time at AC 28. And you're supposed to stay in the back, anyway.

How on earth does a level 6 character get an armor class of 24 not counting his armor bonus?

Even if he had a +1 Heavy Shield, a Ring of Protection +1, an Amulet of Natural Armor +1, the Dodge feat for +1 (against one enemy!), +5 Dexterity, +1 size, and some other feat that gives +1 (like Shield Specialization), that's still only an armor class of 23!

What am I missing here?

Neon Knight
2007-06-15, 09:17 AM
For refrence, my armor:

+5 Mithral Breastplate (Counts as light armor so no arcane spell failure because of battle sorcerer and I get to keep my CHA bonus to armor)
+5 CHA (Ascetic MAge switches WIS bonus to armor to CHA Bonus to armor)
+2 DEX
+1 Ring of Protection

23. I accidentally hit the 4 key instead of the 3 earlier. I have 23 AC before using any defensive spells.

Also 39 hp. Thank you d8 Swordsage hitdice! OVerall, I'm pretty pleased with the build. I might not be a 100% optimized superbuild of doom, but I got tons of neat boosts and counters, and I'm an arcane caster.

brian c
2007-06-15, 10:57 AM
Not in Gestalt. Honestly, the man's got Complete Warrior, and no one pointed him to the advantage of CW prestige classes?

Check out the Master of the Unseen Hand, the Mindspy and the Warshaper. None of them offer any caster progression, making them poor ideas in normal games. But they offer some awesome bonuses to someone who maintains his caster abilities through gestalt, especially for a sorcerer who specializes in a few spells known.

Oh, and is Jade Phoenix Mage legal in Gestalt? I thought it was a combo class like Eldritch Knight and therefore not eligible.

This is a common misconception, that "combo" classes are banned. The gestalt description in UA says that DMs might consider not allowing certain classes such as Mystic Theurge, but this is only a suggestion to DMs and by no means are such classes illegal by RAW

Tokiko Mima
2007-06-15, 12:22 PM
This is a common misconception, that "combo" classes are banned. The gestalt description in UA says that DMs might consider not allowing certain classes such as Mystic Theurge, but this is only a suggestion to DMs and by no means are such classes illegal by RAW

/agree.

I think the reason it suggests not to allow them is because someone might Gestalt a Wizard 6/Ultimate Magus 8//Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 8 and end up with casting 9th level spells for both Sorcerer and Wizard at level 14, along with a respectable BAB.

TO_Incognito
2007-06-15, 01:08 PM
For refrence, my armor:

+5 Mithral Breastplate (Counts as light armor so no arcane spell failure because of battle sorcerer and I get to keep my CHA bonus to armor)
+5 CHA (Ascetic MAge switches WIS bonus to armor to CHA Bonus to armor)
+2 DEX
+1 Ring of Protection

23. I accidentally hit the 4 key instead of the 3 earlier. I have 23 AC before using any defensive spells.

Ah, splat feats. Why can you retain the Wis (now Cha) bonus to armor while wearing light armor again? Does Ascetic Mage allow that too? Still, wearing the breastplate stops you from using Mage Armor or its improved version; can you really get 27 or 28 armor consistently throughout the day? Jack-Simth's estimates just seem a little high to me; your character looks fine.

Douglas
2007-06-15, 01:10 PM
Why can you retain the Wis (now Cha) bonus to armor while wearing light armor again? Does Ascetic Mage allow that too?
Because he's getting it from Swordsage, not Monk, and the Swordsage wisdom-to-AC ability works in light armor.

TO_Incognito
2007-06-15, 01:14 PM
This is a common misconception, that "combo" classes are banned. The gestalt description in UA says that DMs might consider not allowing certain classes such as Mystic Theurge, but this is only a suggestion to DMs and by no means are such classes illegal by RAW

No, it tells the dungeon master that he ought to ban combo prestige classes, not merely that he might consider it. I despise the wording; I've never found that sort of subjunctive used in any other text produced by WotC, so I have nothing to compare it to. That combo prestige classes are banned is both an acceptable interpretation of the RaW as well as the rule used by every dungeon master I've ever seen run a gestalt campaign.



Thank you, Douglas.

Neon Knight
2007-06-15, 01:25 PM
Ah, splat feats. Why can you retain the Wis (now Cha) bonus to armor while wearing light armor again? Does Ascetic Mage allow that too? Still, wearing the breastplate stops you from using Mage Armor or its improved version; can you really get 27 or 28 armor consistently throughout the day? Jack-Simth's estimates just seem a little high to me; your character looks fine.

I think shield (as in, the spell) still works with armor, doens't it?

TO_Incognito
2007-06-15, 01:29 PM
I think shield (as in, the spell) still works with armor, doens't it?

Sure, but Shield doesn't last the whole day )=. Meh, you shouldn't need an armor class higher than 23.

brian c
2007-06-15, 01:35 PM
No, it tells the dungeon master that he ought to ban combo prestige classes, not merely that he might consider it. I despise the wording; I've never found that sort of subjunctive used in any other text produced by WotC, so I have nothing to compare it to. That combo prestige classes are banned is both an acceptable interpretation of the RaW as well as the rule used by every dungeon master I've ever seen run a gestalt campaign.



Thank you, Douglas.

With the amount of variant rules in Unearthed Arcana, I guess they didn't feel like they should be telling any DM what they have to do, just what they should. There are variant rules for everything, so even a "should" can be changed if the DM is so inclined. However, a lot of DMs probably don't read that part, or if they do then they don't pay attention to it. For myself, I've never DMed a gestalt game but if I did I would allow those classes, but never allow more than one "spellcasting level" per level- that is, you can't take Sorcerer and a "+1 to existing spellcasting class" PrC on the same level (unless you use that for a spellcasting class other than Sorc, in which case, whatever).