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MonkeySage
2016-01-13, 06:51 PM
The character is an evil halfling cleric intent on becoming a lich; he dabbles in banking to help fund his research.

Hypothetically, the party he's joining has a paladin. He wants to conceal both his alignment and his class. He's not the best fighter, but he's charismatic, smart, and wise. He's also fairly agile. He wears leather armor and uses a longspear in combat.

Domains are Death and Souls.

AMFV
2016-01-13, 06:55 PM
The character is an evil halfling cleric intent on becoming a lich; he dabbles in banking to help fund his research.

Hypothetically, the party he's joining has a paladin. He wants to conceal both his alignment and his class. He's not the best fighter, but he's charismatic, smart, and wise. He's also fairly agile. He wears leather armor and uses a longspear in combat.

Domains are Death and Souls.

Depends what edition... In 3.5 Undetectable Alignment is a relatively low level spell, and lasts all day. And at mid-level you should be able to get an item that manages it. Hiding your class would be probably a bluff or disguise check. If you're casting spells (in 3.5) that becomes very tricky but is also possible.

In other games and editions the rules and tricks would be very different.

Pex
2016-01-13, 07:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsXEToflqGs

CharonsHelper
2016-01-13, 07:18 PM
Frankly - putting a character who is THAT evil (becoming a Lich is capital 'B' Bad News) in a party with a paladin sounds like you're just asking for all sorts of in-party crap to hit the proverbial fan.

I recommend against making the attempt of this party combination.

Jay R
2016-01-13, 07:27 PM
Agreed. Building a party is a group endeavor, at least to some extent. Make characters that fit with each other.

AMFV
2016-01-13, 07:28 PM
Frankly - putting a character who is THAT evil (becoming a Lich is capital 'B' Bad News) in a party with a paladin sounds like you're just asking for all sorts of in-party crap to hit the proverbial fan.

I recommend against making the attempt of this party combination.

It's only crap hitting the fan when and if he becomes a Lich. Otherwise it's just a mildly unsavory nerdy guy doing research. The alignment issue is only an issue if the Paladin knows he's evil (which with undetectable alignment, he won't). And the Cleric seems like the sneaky type. Frankly a sneaky evil type is more likely to get along with a Paladin than an openly chaotic type. Yes, if it's ever realized it'll be an issue, but the Paladin isn't going to have the knowledge skills to really figure it out, or really the sense motive to beat a focused bluff character.

This is something that could certainly be workable, if planned properly. And it seems that he is taking the effort to plan it.


Agreed. Building a party is a group endeavor, at least to some extent. Make characters that fit with each other.


Why? There's no rule that everybody has to have the same outlook. As long as their goals are compatible (at least the short term ones), they'll have a reason to be together. And the evil one will have a reason to keep his evil in check to stay hidden. It looks like they're trying to avoid PvP but still have complex characters, that's certainly a workable thing.

GorinichSerpant
2016-01-13, 07:39 PM
Do you know the Paladin's player? Do you know how they would react as a player to your character? On one extreme, some people take these things like a personal offense, on another some people would laugh-off their character being backstabbed by a supposed friend or savour the story twist. Depending on the attitude of the people of at the table this could either lead to horrible drama between the players or a enjoyable experience while the characters are dealing with drama.

CharonsHelper
2016-01-13, 07:46 PM
It looks like they're trying to avoid PvP but still have complex characters, that's certainly a workable thing.

That makes it sound like you can't have complex characters who, as a group, genuinely like each-other & get along well.

AMFV
2016-01-13, 07:57 PM
That makes it sound like you can't have complex characters who, as a group, genuinely like each-other & get along well.

Fair enough, I can see that it might read that way. Wasn't my intention. Both are equally viable things. But to imply that creating a character who has goals contrary to another character's goals, is going to ruin a campaign, seems a stretch. They need only have the same large scale goals, small goals are quite easy.

Jay R
2016-01-13, 08:28 PM
It's only crap hitting the fan when and if he becomes a Lich. Otherwise it's just a mildly unsavory nerdy guy doing research. The alignment issue is only an issue if the Paladin knows he's evil (which with undetectable alignment, he won't).

In my experience, you cannot count on keeping a secret from another player permanently.

I have enjoyed having secrets from the rest of the party. In a game set in the Old West, I announced that I was going to base my character on a favorite western TV show. And then I showed up with a Ca Li Yang, Chinese martial artist that everybody recognized as Kwai-Chang Caine from Kung Fu.

After a few sessions, when the situation called for it, my character washed off his make-up and introduced himself as Cal Young, a federal agent disguise artist based on Artemus Gordon from The Wild, Wild West.

It was fun, but the eventual and inevitable reveal was part of the original plan, and there was no problem for the party when it happened.

Sure, maybe the Evil alignment can be kept over several adventures, but it only takes one slip, and then PvP is inevitable.


Why? There's no rule that everybody has to have the same outlook. As long as their goals are compatible (at least the short term ones), ...

Their goals aren't compatible. The Paladin's goals include vanquishing Evil.

And I didn't suggest that they had to have the same outlook, but they should be characters who are allowed to work together.


And the evil one will have a reason to keep his evil in check to stay hidden.

That I agree with. I once played a 2E Thief in a party with a Paladin. The DM once tried to say that, based on my actions, my alignment of Neutral Good should change to Lawful Good. I had to explain that he was not Lawful, but was currently finding traveling with a Paladin to be more lucrative that theft, and not picking any pockets was the price he paid to do so.


It looks like they're trying to avoid PvP but still have complex characters, that's certainly a workable thing.

Certainly. But complex characters who are compatible works much better than complex characters who are not.

This character's goal is to become a Lich. That is not compatible with the Paladin's goals. They aren't trying to avoid PvP. They are merely postponing it.

Airk
2016-01-13, 08:56 PM
Yeaaaah. Campaign implosion waiting to happen. Do not attempt.

druid91
2016-01-13, 08:59 PM
Frankly - putting a character who is THAT evil (becoming a Lich is capital 'B' Bad News) in a party with a paladin sounds like you're just asking for all sorts of in-party crap to hit the proverbial fan.

I recommend against making the attempt of this party combination.

To be fair, I played a game in which a LE Necromancer and LG Paladin were allies more often than not. They came into conflict a lot less often than you'd think.

You just have to kick fewer puppies and be more inventive with your evil. Think of it like being a TV show writer trying to slip things past the censor. It makes being evil harder, but also ultimately more rewarding when you do pull out your "AHA. I've unleashed an ancient undead horror to fight the ancient demonic horror!" "Oh, that's goo-, Wait... what?!" "Trust me, it's only got a 42% chance of backfiring horribly."

MonkeySage
2016-01-13, 09:05 PM
This is 3.X; the character in question, the cleric, is a generally friendly and charming guy, who means it when he says he likes someone. He's likely to offer good advice even to an enemy he's trying to kill. He wants to become a lich as a stepping stone toward overthrowing a god of the dead, a cause he sincerely believes must be done for the greater good. That aside, there's definitely an element of pride in there; he honestly believes that he is the only one who can do it, the only one fit to take that god's place. He's very much an ends justifies the means kind of character.

He'll lie, cheat, and kill to achieve his goals, but he'll be polite about it, and he'll apologize if he has to kill someone he likes. And he's not likely to do any of those things without reason.

CharonsHelper
2016-01-13, 09:09 PM
To be fair, I played a game in which a LE Necromancer and LG Paladin were allies more often than not. They came into conflict a lot less often than you'd think.

Well - besides the issues of the Paladin code making working with an evil character iffy (I know Pathfinder is less absolute on it) it depends upon the evil character and just what sort of evil they do. That's why I specifically noted "THAT evil". If a character is only borderline evil (like most lawyers :P) then it can certainly work. However, I think that in 3.5 they mention that becoming a lich means the sacrifice of bunches of sentient creatures. The kind of character who wants to do that is an entire other kind of evil.

Ettina
2016-01-13, 09:45 PM
Regarding the idea of having those two in a party together - if both players approach it maturely, I see no issue. Sure, maybe it'll end in PvP - that's not necessarily a bad thing, if players can handle that. Maybe one or the other will be converted to a different alignment/goal in the future - for example, paladin-to-blackguard is a doable character arc. Or maybe they'll have their characters avoid PvP, either by avoiding the 'discovery' or by building complex characters who don't base all their decisions on good vs evil. You could also easily build a paladin whose reaction to an evil ally would be 'try to redeem them' instead of 'turn on them' - for example, a paladin who follows Ilmater (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ilmater), since Ilmater's all about that forgiveness. There are so many options, so many ways that creative and mature players could make this work.

As for the OP's question, I'm not sure about Undetectable Alignment. It says it hides the character's alignment, but it says nothing about the aura that a cleric gives off. A cleric of an evil god pings evil regardless of their own alignment, because an alignment aura based on diety is a class feature for clerics. Does undetectable alignment affect the cleric aura, or just their character's alignment?

Alex12
2016-01-13, 09:58 PM
However, I think that in 3.5 they mention that becoming a lich means the sacrifice of bunches of sentient creatures. The kind of character who wants to do that is an entire other kind of evil.
It doesn't actually say that in any source that I'm familiar with. Closest thing is that "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil" which could mean a bunch of things.
Of course, there's an easy solution there:
"Of course I know how to undergo the lichdom ritual. It's dead easy (if you'll pardon the pun). Any idiot who can hack together a magic talisman, has even the most rudimentary grasp of necromancy, and is willing to sacrifice a hundred innocent souls to *insert evil death god here* can pull it off. I'm trying to work out a way to do it without empowering *insert evil death god here.*."

Also, definitely talk to the Paladin player OOC, as well as the DM, about this. There might be a way to justify things. Like, if the Paladin and the would-be lich are childhood friends, or the Paladin agrees that, provided a way can be found for the cleric to become a lich without performing unspeakable acts on anything except his own soul, the cleric really would be a better god than the one he's trying to replace.

HeadAcheron
2016-01-13, 10:29 PM
Do you know the Paladin's player? Do you know how they would react as a player to your character? On one extreme, some people take these things like a personal offense, on another some people would laugh-off their character being backstabbed by a supposed friend or savour the story twist. Depending on the attitude of the people of at the table this could either lead to horrible drama between the players or a enjoyable experience while the characters are dealing with drama. This. So much this.

AMFV
2016-01-13, 11:14 PM
Regarding the idea of having those two in a party together - if both players approach it maturely, I see no issue. Sure, maybe it'll end in PvP - that's not necessarily a bad thing, if players can handle that. Maybe one or the other will be converted to a different alignment/goal in the future - for example, paladin-to-blackguard is a doable character arc. Or maybe they'll have their characters avoid PvP, either by avoiding the 'discovery' or by building complex characters who don't base all their decisions on good vs evil. You could also easily build a paladin whose reaction to an evil ally would be 'try to redeem them' instead of 'turn on them' - for example, a paladin who follows Ilmater (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ilmater), since Ilmater's all about that forgiveness. There are so many options, so many ways that creative and mature players could make this work.

As for the OP's question, I'm not sure about Undetectable Alignment. It says it hides the character's alignment, but it says nothing about the aura that a cleric gives off. A cleric of an evil god pings evil regardless of their own alignment, because an alignment aura based on diety is a class feature for clerics. Does undetectable alignment affect the cleric aura, or just their character's alignment?

Planar Motes would do it in 3.5. Although to be fair I would probably ask the DM about it, see if he can homebrew an item for that purpose. Since the only real use is to keep the party from murdering each other, the DM should probably be on-board. I think the mechanical issue is less important than addressing the potential social pitfalls prior.

veti
2016-01-13, 11:43 PM
This. So much this.

Agreed. The concept could work perfectly well, I'd think it was pretty entertaining myself - but some players, including by the looks of things many posters in this thread, would lose it when they found out.

Obviously, you need something to block "detect evil". I suggest an object. A spell is too risky (sooner or later you'll be hit by a 'dispel magic', or something - and even if not, you'll be down at least one spell slot per day, which is a noticeable handicap at low level). Talk to the DM about sourcing a Doohicky of Nondetection, or some such.

Âmesang
2016-01-14, 01:49 AM
Maybe one or the other will be converted to a different alignment/goal in the future - for example, paladin-to-blackguard is a doable character arc.
See, now I'm picturing the cleric is Emperor Palpatine and the paladin as Anakin Skywalker. :smalltongue:


As for the OP's question, I'm not sure about Undetectable Alignment. It says it hides the character's alignment, but it says nothing about the aura that a cleric gives off. A cleric of an evil god pings evil regardless of their own alignment, because an alignment aura based on diety is a class feature for clerics. Does undetectable alignment affect the cleric aura, or just their character's alignment?
I don't see why it wouldn't. Everyone radiates an alignment aura, it's just that clerics/paladins/blackguards radiate stronger auras (equivalent to an outsider). The spell misdirection seems to indicate that it's the aura itself that's being detected. Heck, even paladins can learn undetectable alignment — would be kind of pointless if their auras of goodness still shined through, no?

Malifice
2016-01-14, 01:57 AM
It's only crap hitting the fan when and if he becomes a Lich. Otherwise it's just a mildly unsavory nerdy guy doing research.

Dude, its 3.5.

The Evil cleric glows like a tree when the Paladin uses detect evil. More brightly than a third level mass murdering Rogue does.

Also, look to real life for what happens when two people who are fundamentally devoted to their religions, and fundamentally different in world views spend any amount of time together.

Youre putting together a devil worshipping dude who is OK with murder, with a puritanical inquisitor type.

It wont end well.

Personally, as the Paladin I would refuse to have anything to do with the Cleric unless they agreed to repent, renounce their deity, accept a good aligned deity, and turn back from the darkness.


Why? There's no rule that everybody has to have the same outlook. As long as their goals are compatible (at least the short term ones), they'll have a reason to be together.

Paladin (3e SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm)):

While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Its a rule. A paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters or those who consistently offend her moral code.

This cleric ticks both boxes.

Alex12
2016-01-14, 02:24 AM
Dude, its 3.5.

The Evil cleric glows like a tree when the Paladin uses detect evil. More brightly than a third level mass murdering Rogue does.

Also, look to real life for what happens when two people who are fundamentally devoted to their religions, and fundamentally different in world views spend any amount of time together.

Youre putting together a devil worshipping dude who is OK with murder, with a puritanical inquisitor type.

It wont end well.

Personally, as the Paladin I would refuse to have anything to do with the Cleric unless they agreed to repent, renounce their deity, accept a good aligned deity, and turn back from the darkness.



Paladin (3e SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm)):

While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Its a rule. A paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters or those who consistently offend her moral code.

This cleric ticks both boxes.

There's a very important word in there. Knowingly. If the paladin doesn't know the cleric is evil (due to Undetectable Alignment or some other anti-divination mechanism) and the cleric is subtle (either hiding whatever atrocities/crimes against nature/whatever that he's doing, or being reasonably smart and not committing blatantly evil acts in the general vicinity of the paladin), then there's no real problem. We're not talking "Lord Puppykicker, the Slayer of Children" here, we're talking about someone who knows the basics of how paladins work (which I imagine is basically common knowledge) and is actively trying not to run afoul of it. After all, the paladin's moral code can't be offended by anything he doesn't know about.

Malifice
2016-01-14, 03:09 AM
There's a very important word in there. Knowingly. If the paladin doesn't know the cleric is evil (due to Undetectable Alignment or some other anti-divination mechanism) and the cleric is subtle (either hiding whatever atrocities/crimes against nature/whatever that he's doing, or being reasonably smart and not committing blatantly evil acts in the general vicinity of the paladin), then there's no real problem.

And the instant the Paladin discovers he is evil, he kicks him out of the party. Its a problem waiting to happen.

Why on earth is an evil monster who desires becomeing a lich willingly travelling with a Paladin anyway?


We're not talking "Lord Puppykicker, the Slayer of Children"

Very very few evil people are like this.

Mr.Moron
2016-01-14, 03:15 AM
Is this something you've actually cleared with the GM and other players at the table, or have you just decided this is a "Good Idea"™ on your own?

MonkeySage
2016-01-14, 08:47 AM
It's a hypothetical scenario: basically I was looking for tips in the event that future gms allow me to use my cleric. this basic character concept is one I've wanted to play for a while. the cleric has other goals aside from his primary ones, including establishing a bank (a goal which is at least not obviously evil). To set this up, he'll need to travel quite a bit. as I've said, the cleric is very personable, makes friends easily and generally gets along with people who are polite. he's got a steady temper so he's not easy to anger (just watch out when he does get angry :P).

He doesn't even swear; thinks it's rude.

Jay R
2016-01-14, 09:25 AM
It doesn't actually say that in any source that I'm familiar with. Closest thing is that "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil" which could mean a bunch of things.

I suppose it could, but it probably means that it's unspeakably evil.



Of course, there's an easy solution there:
"Of course I know how to undergo the lichdom ritual. It's dead easy (if you'll pardon the pun). Any idiot who can hack together a magic talisman, has even the most rudimentary grasp of necromancy, and is willing to sacrifice a hundred innocent souls to *insert evil death god here* can pull it off. I'm trying to work out a way to do it without empowering *insert evil death god here.*."

OK, I'll bite. How does this solve the fact that a Paladin will never associate with evil characters, and the cleric is an evil character?

When the secret gets out the party is permanently broken. That's what needs to be fixed.


Also, definitely talk to the Paladin player OOC, as well as the DM, about this. There might be a way to justify things. Like, if the Paladin and the would-be lich are childhood friends, or the Paladin agrees that, provided a way can be found for the cleric to become a lich without performing unspeakable acts on anything except his own soul, the cleric really would be a better god than the one he's trying to replace.

But the cleric is still Evil, and the Paladin will still not associate with him.

And whatever you wind up doing is not a lich, if it isn't Evil.

Red Fel
2016-01-14, 09:37 AM
The ultimate obstacle - really, the only obstacle, provided your character is not over-the-top puppy-kicking Evil - is the Paladin's Code. This explicitly prohibits him from associating with Evil characters for a duration. That's explicit. If it's the sort of rule the DM enforces, it's not worth bringing this character to the table. Talk it out with the Paladin's player, one of you will have to roll a new character.

That said, if the DM does not enforce that admittedly stupid aspect of the Paladin's code, the only conflict emerges - as AMFV points out - when and if the Cleric succeeds at his goal of Lichdom. At that point, yeah, the conflict becomes pretty much inevitable. But up until that point, it is possible for Good and Evil characters with common goals to be friends. Harder when one of them is a Paladin, but not impossible. Give them a common backstory. Heck, make the Cleric's transition into Evil almost tragic, something the Paladin tries to dissuade, while still holding on hope that his friend can be redeemed. (But not in an obnoxious way.)

That said, I'm going with the crowd. Assuming RAW interpretation and default Paladin's Code, bringing this character to the table is simply asking for a party implosion.

Douche
2016-01-14, 09:45 AM
You're going to have to do some evil stuff at some point, and whether or not the paladin character is there for it, the paladin player will hear it. If he wants his character to find out, he will find out.

At that point, why even bother concealing it? And why gimp yourself by pretending to be a fighter?

rooster707
2016-01-14, 11:01 AM
A thin sheet of lead?

Mr.Moron
2016-01-14, 11:19 AM
It's a hypothetical scenario: basically I was looking for tips in the event that future gms allow me to use my cleric. this basic character concept is one I've wanted to play for a while. the cleric has other goals aside from his primary ones, including establishing a bank (a goal which is at least not obviously evil). To set this up, he'll need to travel quite a bit. as I've said, the cleric is very personable, makes friends easily and generally gets along with people who are polite. he's got a steady temper so he's not easy to anger (just watch out when he does get angry :P).

He doesn't even swear; thinks it's rude.


There are no general tips. It's a group by group basis. If the group was the type that allowed paladins it is by defintion not the kind that allows evil characters. If I was the kind of player inclined to play with evil characters in my party or the kind of GM inclined to allow them under any circumstance (I'm not, but this is hypothetical), I'd expect the character to only be accepted with unanimous approval from the existing party.

The player would have to go in with understanding that the first time his evil acts makes someone uncomfortable, or causes conflict with the party his chances of suffering a sudden heart attack will start to approach 1.


Evil alignments are called out in every addition as not being player options by default. The game is plastered all over with the word "Hero" in descriptions of PC at every opportunity. And evil-only options & supplements explicitly call out their "Only under special approval and even then be careful" nature.

Basically don't be disruptive, don't make anyone uncomfortable and expect the universe to be keeping you on a leash so short it's basically just a handle.

LoyalPaladin
2016-01-14, 02:07 PM
The ultimate obstacle - really, the only obstacle, provided your character is not over-the-top puppy-kicking Evil - is the Paladin's Code.
My paladin sense is tingling.

While I'd obviously prefer you're all [Good] and possibly even [Lawful], I'll follow the flow of the thread here and agree that, if your DM doesn't enforce specific aspects of the paladin's code, this shouldn't be a huge problem and you will most definitely be able to work it out with the paladin.

Example, I play a very very holy paladin of Torm at my regular table. I've known since before day one that our bard was slowly being dominated by Mephistopheles, but my paladin seeks to sever that connection and save his friend. Unfortunately, both of us know that this bard is too far gone and one day I'll have to strike him down with my holy avenger. But that will be the saddest day of my paladin's life.

Paladin's don't necessarily want to go on a genocidal rampage against evil creatures. I'd actually say that the best paladins are the ones that see evil creatures as something that they need to help. Will that stop them from killing 30 orcs that are storming Waterdeep? No. But would they adopt and take care of an orc orphan they found roaming that same exact battlefield? You bet your halfling rogue's bag of holding they would.

Paladin's are capable of existing at any table, all it takes is an amiable DM and a willing player.

veti
2016-01-14, 05:44 PM
Evil alignments are called out in every addition as not being player options by default.

Not in 1e, they're not. I don't know about Basic/OD&D, but I'd be very surprised if they were there (because the game's roots were in wargaming, which kinda assumes people will have to play both sides).

There are many ways of playing the game. Evil parties and PvP may not fit with your idea of how it should run, but they're a perfectly viable thing. We don't know what kind of group the OP is talking about.

Thrudd
2016-01-14, 06:13 PM
Present yourself as a simple fighter. Assuming by-the-book paladin code, the only way to stay hidden in the presence of detect-evil would be some kind of magic item which gives a false alignment reading. Never use any magic that has even the slightest evil connotation nor uses negative energy and definitely no interaction with the undead, at least not in front of any party members. You may need to check with the DM to be sure that all of your cleric spells, regardless of type, don't radiate obvious or even visible evil.

Make sure with the DM it is possible to pray silently to your deity to get your spells, so the paladin doesn't accidently catch you whispering "hail Satan" at midnight in front of your black candles.

Make sure your holy symbol is securely hidden, like in an inner shirt pocket, sewn shut so it doesn't accidentally fall out. When it's time to start bringin your evil schemes to fruition, or if you suspect the pally is on to you somehow, check with the DM on how they adjudicate attacking a sleeping or helpless person. If by the book, you should be able to auto kill with a coup de gras. Wait for a time when you're isolated away from the other characters, and do the deed (or get an assassin to do it for you). Say "sorry" to the pally' player, "nothing personal. It's just that code, you know?"

Oh yeah. This is all a terrible idea. Bring this character to an all evil/neutral party, not one with a paladin, or even good characters.

LoyalPaladin
2016-01-14, 06:20 PM
Make sure your holy symbol is securely hidden, like in an inner shirt pocket, sewn shut so it doesn't accidentally fall out. When it's time to start bringin your evil schemes to fruition, or if you suspect the pally is on to you somehow, check with the DM on how they adjudicate attacking a sleeping or helpless person.
I'm going to quote Snowbluff on this one: "What level 6 paladin sleeps anymore?"

Snowbluff
2016-01-14, 06:26 PM
I'm going to quote Snowbluff on this one: "What level 6 paladin sleeps anymore?"

It's true. At level 4, they can cast Lesser Restoration to avoid the fatigue of not sleeping.

Thrudd
2016-01-14, 06:34 PM
I'm going to quote Snowbluff on this one: "What level 6 paladin sleeps anymore?"

Lol, well I guess he may have to hire tougher assassins to do the deed up front. And somehow arrange for the body to be lost so no resurrection can happen.

Or, trick the pally into committing a power-stripping offense against his god, and then get some assassins involved with poison to do the deed. Then make sure the body disappears.

Or, depart from his company to pursue your evil agenda free from the prying eyes of good guys. Come back when you're a lich, and dispose of the pally and anyone else that has a problem with that, if they try to step to you.

And then be all "If any pallies come up in here, tryin ta get all froggy, it's on like Bergeron. I may have to kidnap a pally. I may have to torture a pally. You need to fire board those mamma jammas. "

CharonsHelper
2016-01-14, 06:39 PM
It's true. At level 4, they can cast Lesser Restoration to avoid the fatigue of not sleeping.

If you're playing Pathfinder they can start at level 3 by taking the right Mercy and spending their Lay on Hands for removing fatigue.

LoyalPaladin
2016-01-14, 06:59 PM
Lol, well I guess he may have to hire tougher assassins to do the deed up front. And somehow arrange for the body to be lost so no resurrection can happen.

Or, trick the pally into committing a power-stripping offense against his god, and then get some assassins involved with poison to do the deed. Then make sure the body disappears.

Or, depart from his company to pursue your evil agenda free from the prying eyes of good guys. Come back when you're a lich, and dispose of the pally and anyone else that has a problem with that, if they try to step to you.

And then be all "If any pallies come up in here, tryin ta get all froggy, it's on like Bergeron. I may have to kidnap a pally. I may have to torture a pally. You need to fire board those mamma jammas. "
Any paladin worth his salt is immune to poison! That's like day one rules! I personally use a ring of venom immunity (EttDWP?).

Like I said, try to get along with the paladin. You don't want to be on the wrong side of that blade, especially at early levels. Somehow I lucked out with my current paladin and got a lot of great paladin gear. I say I lucked out, because I'm fairly certain our DM doesn't enjoy the paladin archetype.

gtwucla
2016-01-14, 11:52 PM
Honestly this sounds a bit to me to be like Raistlin and Cameron (or any of the other party characters for that matter) from Dragonlance. I think as long as you don't mind the two characters parting ways at some point or parting and then meeting up periodically, it could be very interesting. I don't understand the sense that a party needs to be built around each other. The hardest part is introducing the character to the party organically. If you can do that, I think you're in for some fun.

This is of course all dependent on your players...

goto124
2016-01-15, 12:06 AM
Example, I play a very very holy paladin of Torm at my regular table. I've known since before day one that our bard was slowly being dominated by Mephistopheles, but my paladin seeks to sever that connection and save his friend. Unfortunately, both of us know that this bard is too far gone and one day I'll have to strike him down with my holy avenger. But that will be the saddest day of my paladin's life. [snip]

Paladin's are capable of existing at any table, all it takes is an amiable DM and a willing player.

I still don't understand how paladins can be played alongside characters performing Evil actions. Apart from hiding all Evil actions from the paladin, that is.

What did your paladin do throughout the campaign? What happened when a party member wanted to perform an action your paladin disapproved of?

LoyalPaladin
2016-01-15, 02:28 AM
What did your paladin do throughout the campaign? What happened when a party member wanted to perform an action your paladin disapproved of?
While I really want to say something like "No one dares disappoint the paladin!" It was more like a mutual agreement. He'd behave as best he could around the paladin and sometimes he would mess up. Every time that happened, except once, the paladin was either there to stop the evil act from coming to fruition or the paladin found out what happened and made him serve penance. One time it was too much and he had to be put down, that was the exception. Death is always the last option. There were legitimately times where the evil party member swayed towards good because of the paladin. Which, I think, means I was doing my job correctly.

Now, everything I just said would be entirely wasted on a murder-hobo or some psycho. That would have been one of those session one wipe outs.

veti
2016-01-15, 02:45 AM
I still don't understand how paladins can be played alongside characters performing Evil actions.

Oh yes you do.


Apart from hiding all Evil actions from the paladin, that is.

See, was that so hard to figure out?

In a pure, linear dungeon delve, with no splitting the party, it can be hard to get away from the pally's watchful gaze. But... in my experience, situations like that account for less than 25% of the total playing time. The other 75%, you'd have no lack of opportunity to run around behind his back being as nasty as you like.

Your mileage may very well vary, but again - we don't know what kind of group or game the OP is talking about.

Red Fel
2016-01-15, 09:45 AM
I still don't understand how paladins can be played alongside characters performing Evil actions. Apart from hiding all Evil actions from the paladin, that is.

What did your paladin do throughout the campaign? What happened when a party member wanted to perform an action your paladin disapproved of?

It depends on three things:
How an Evil character plays Evil. Not every Evil act involves kicking puppies for no reason other than that they're cute and cuddly. Some are just ruthlessly pragmatic, like killing a captured prisoner because you know he'll escape during the night and warn his friends. The Paladin may be upset with this, but he can at least grudgingly acknowledge that it was for the greater good.
How a Paladin plays a Paladin. Even assuming the DM isn't enforcing the "no Evil associates" portion of the Paladin's Code, not every Paladin is born with a congenital stick up his backside. Not every one has to be a "Detect Evil first, Smite Evil second, ask questions later" kind of Paladin. LP expresses this sentiment well - a Paladin who emphasizes the Good over the Lawful might be more inclined to show tolerance for an Evil character who shows that he has a common goal, or mercy towards one who is clearly tempering his darker instincts.
How both characters play people. A character isn't just a set of rules and mechanics. It has a personality, a history. Your party isn't just a group of statistic-covered pages in the same binder; they're people, colleagues, maybe even friends. We make exceptions for our friends. We look for the best in them. We sometimes do things with which we're not comfortable for their sake (like abstaining from killing puppies). We sometimes overlook their flaws in the name of friendship (like their tendency towards puppy-killing) or hope that they will become better people with our help. The point is, if the characters are people, there's a willingness to bridge the gap.
Of course, this is also dependent upon the DM's willingness to ignore that one Code provision, or it all pretty much goes out the window.

Mr.Moron
2016-01-15, 10:30 AM
Not in 1e, they're not. I don't know about Basic/OD&D, but I'd be very surprised if they were there (because the game's roots were in wargaming, which kinda assumes people will have to play both sides).

There are many ways of playing the game. Evil parties and PvP may not fit with your idea of how it should run, but they're a perfectly viable thing. We don't know what kind of group the OP is talking about.

My apologies. I stand corrected on an overly broad statement. We can certainly say it is the case for every modern, RPG version of D&D (3.P iterations, 4e, 5e - even 2e iirc but that was a bit before my time).

Secondly Evil Parties & PvP are a viable way of playing but they're certainly not the default. Since the OP has given us only the barest of information I'm just going to operate under the assumption we're talking about groups that range from relatively average to my ideal.

If we're talking about a group that loves PvP and loves watching a fast one be pulled over on the good guys it's probably an non-issue entirely. I don't think that's a majority of groups though and it's certainly not what the rules are written to by default.

Lord Torath
2016-01-15, 11:02 AM
It's a hypothetical scenario: basically I was looking for tips in the event that future gms allow me to use my cleric. this basic character concept is one I've wanted to play for a while. the cleric has other goals aside from his primary ones, including establishing a bank (a goal which is at least not obviously evil). To set this up, he'll need to travel quite a bit. as I've said, the cleric is very personable, makes friends easily and generally gets along with people who are polite. he's got a steady temper so he's not easy to anger (just watch out when he does get angry :P).

He doesn't even swear; thinks it's rude.How set are you on being evil? There are non-evil ways to depose a god, and a god of Death doesn't have to be evil either. If you can stomach not being evil, you lose a lot of the risk of exploding the campaign.

Still, I'd say the very best advice I've seen here so far is to talk to the paladin's player, and the DM, and see if you can find a way to make things work. If the Paladin's player doesn't like the idea, you may need to save the character for another campaign (and possibly resurrect the "Characters I've Always Wanted to Play" thread). If the paladin's player thinks it's great, by all means, go with it! But I'd recommend not trying to keep your character's alignment a secret from the other players.

CharonsHelper
2016-01-15, 11:24 AM
Some [evil characters] are just ruthlessly pragmatic, like killing a captured prisoner because you know he'll escape during the night and warn his friends. The Paladin may be upset with this, but he can at least grudgingly acknowledge that it was for the greater good.

I don't think that's inherently evil.

If the prisoner is an evil murderer style evil (not just misguided or some such) my paladin will do that. It's called execution. He's not about to risk Hannibal Lector style villains getting away. (Assuming that he's in the wilds and not where a just legal system that CAN DEAL with the criminal is.)

LoyalPaladin
2016-01-15, 11:24 AM
LP expresses this sentiment well - a Paladin who emphasizes the Good over the Lawful might be more inclined to show tolerance for an Evil character who shows that he has a common goal, or mercy towards one who is clearly tempering his darker instincts.
I always get bent out of shape by the "Lawful>Good" paladin archetype, because I feel like paladins are specifically designed to fight evil, not chaos. Even their player's handbook entry stresses that.


The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold law, and the power to defeat evil—these are the three weapons of the paladin... Even a mundane mission is, in the heart of the paladin, a personal test—an opportunity to demonstrate bravery, to develop martial skills, to learn tactics, and to find ways to do good. Still, the paladin really comes into her own when leading a mighty campaign against evil... Finally, the paladin can use this power to destroy evil. Even the least experienced paladin can detect evil, and more experienced paladins can smite evil foes...
With half a million variants on the paladin class though, this can change between different types of paladins. Basically all of my comments thus far have been about the PHB paladin.

My favorite line from the PHB about paladin, however, is this one:

In a land of scheming wizards, unholy priests, bloodthirsty dragons, and infernal fiends, the paladin is the final hope that cannot be extinguished.
This is the whole reason I personally feel that paladin's are doing their job when they are adventuring with an evil party member. Paladin's aren't "the final line of resistance" or "the greatest offense against evil", they are "the final hope". The paladin is the last one to give up. He should be the one that picks up his party member when he falls and tells him "get back to it, you've still got work to do".

If that party member fails to come around and grossly violates your code (murdering people, not stealing some apples), then, with great sadness, the paladin should end their existence. I like to play my paladin's with the "never forget" attitude. Never forget the people you couldn't save.


If the prisoner is an evil murderer style evil (not just misguided or some such) my paladin will do that.
Yes, then it is your duty to put them down. In the case of party members, however, your character has grown with them and knows when they're no longer going to progress towards good.

Aspiration
2016-01-15, 11:57 AM
I'm just gonna say this. You're the one who knows who else is at the table. If you think the paladin's player wouldn't like to be deceived, don't try it. And be open to the possibility they may prefer their character not be deceived either, and would rather help find some other way to work around it. I would not like to spend an entire campaign knowing something like that OOC and not being able to act on it, or being taken by surprise about it the wrong way. (There is a right way to betray other PCs, yes, but it's complicated enough to aim for that I for one wouldn't bet on it.)
If neither your DM nor the paladin are lawful stupid, it should be quite possible to handle cooperatively.

But yeah, for the actual mechanics, sounds like something to work out with the DM. Since it's not really about mechanics, just enabling roleplaying. A simple magic item sounds like a pretty reasonable solution.

MonkeySage
2016-01-15, 12:36 PM
Generally I don't like the players to know everything about each other's characters, and the last time I played this guy I actually did my best to conceal his evil nature(the other players found out by accident ooc). I see roleplaying as a medium for storytelling, and learning ooc that another pc is evil just seems like a spoiler. I wouldn't play this character in a group where everything is out in the open, but with a gm that allows me to play him and keeps his evil nature a secret. He's charismatic and smart, and as a halfling his stature makes him easy to underestimate.

dps
2016-01-15, 04:49 PM
if both players approach it maturely, I see no issue.

Good luck with that.

LoyalPaladin
2016-01-15, 04:59 PM
Good luck with that.
With a few rare exceptions, I've never had a problem coming to a solid agreement with other players at any table I've played at.

Âmesang
2016-01-15, 05:00 PM
He's charismatic and smart, and as a halfling his stature makes him easy to underestimate.
Never underestimate a character who's of crotch-punching height. :smalleek: "Halfling (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ciXJsXZTtA)" monks can be just as scary as the biggest half-orc barbarian.