Help me build this battling bard.

[Willie the Duck]

Okay. I have a campaign with 1) fellow players who are not good at optimization, and 2) a DM who does not alter the difficulty level based on the characters we build. So the impetus is to build something that is at the same time 1) fun, 2) helpful, and 3) doesn't completely steal the show.

For those reasons, I am thinking of going with a bard. The character concept is that he was the scribe, torchbearer, and general low-level follower to an adventuring wizard. Since that wizard died, he has turned to wandering the Sword Coast and telling the tales of all the places he went and the things he has seen. He uses his extensive knowledge of the things he has seen to benefit himself and his allies in battle (RP connection to knowledge devotion feat). He's currently 3rd level.

I was thinking of making him a melee support character, as that fits with helping out the less-than-optimized party without just doing the work for people. I'm also worried about how squishy bards are, so am looking for ways to deal with that (at all levels)

Planning him out at least to level 12 (for no other reasons than that my plans might make it to 12, but who knows what they'll be for higher levels), I was going to go:
Hieronymus Steym, NG Human Bard X/ appropriate PrCs Y
Str 13
Dex 12
Con 15 16 (4th level attribute bonus)
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 18 20 (8th and 12th level bonuses)
Feats
B(human) Nymph’s Kiss
1 Melodic Casting
3 Knowledge Devotion
6 Snowflake Wardance
9 Words of creation
12 Minor Shapeshift

The issue is that minor shapeshift was going to come with picking up polymorph self via going Lyric Thaumaturge. Then I realized that LT does not advance Inspire Courage. It's a good thing to catch now, in the planning phases, and also reminds me that 12th level is way too high to start addressing the bard's squishiness.

So what do people suggest? Stick with LT, swap out words of creation, and become a spell-based buffing bard with snowflake and knowledge devotion gishing ability? Go straight bard and maximize the Inspire courage angle? Add some levels of paladin (and presumably Devoted Performer, although the DM might just ok a LG bard) to mitigate the squishiness? Does anyone have any suggestions on this? Thanks in advance for your help!:smallbiggrin:

[kingzerno]

I say if you're going bard, BARD HARD. Straight bard all the way.

[Naez]

If you want to be a good front-liner and optimize inspire courage but not worry about spells or higher level bard songs I'd suggest a bardblade build. Bard 4/Warblade 16. Allows you to buff allies while dealing out the pain yourself, and d12 hit die ain't too shabby either. I'd also suggest if you're going IC use a Silverbrow Human and take Dragonfire Inspiration.

[Willie the Duck]

Thanks Naez. ToB is out, but your advice is good if it were available.

Both of you, yeah--if I want to go the IC route, multiclassing is out (Well, Virtuoso is in, but frankly I don't see the value in the PrC unless you are trying to advance sublime chord casting).

I guess my idea isn't turning out and I have to figure out what I want to do instead.

[WeaselGuy]

If Bardblade is out, how about mixing Bard with a little Barbarian, and going into Dragon Disciple? You go from basically being a supportive knowledge-y type character to a beefy front-liner, but it's not a straight up "omgwtfbbq" powerhouse universe melter. Plus, it has flavor. Dragon type flavor.

[Naez]

Thanks Naez. ToB is out, but your advice is good if it were available.

Both of you, yeah--if I want to go the IC route, multiclassing is out (Well, Virtuoso is in, but frankly I don't see the value in the PrC unless you are trying to advance sublime chord casting).

I guess my idea isn't turning out and I have to figure out what I want to do instead.

Well if Tome is out maybe an Initiate of Milil (Paladin/Bard hybrid feat) or Harmonious Knight (Paladin of Milil Substitution Levels that give a few bard songs) build? Both are Champions of Valor though Harmonious Knight came from the web enhancement.

[John Longarrow]

I'd take either 1 or 3 levels in Marshal for the minor auras. Adding Cha to Dex is a great way to keep the party going first in combat. Master of Tactics would let your allies add your Cha bonus to damage when flanking. Both really good support abilities and you can switch between them. With your charisma your party will really like that.

[Willie the Duck]

Well if Tome is out maybe an Initiate of Milil (Paladin/Bard hybrid feat) or Harmonious Knight (Paladin of Milil Substitution Levels that give a few bard songs) build? Both are Champions of Valor though Harmonious Knight came from the web enhancement.

Initiate of Milil seems to give half the benefits of devoted performer (paladin levels to bardic music ability, but not bard levels to smite). I'm not sure I get it. Harmonious Knight looks interesting. It's an alternate version of inspire courage... so it doesn't stack/can't be used at the same time as the bardic ability? Is that correct? It's a nice alternative, to be sure!

[Naez]

Initiate of Milil seems to give half the benefits of devoted performer (paladin levels to bardic music ability, but not bard levels to smite). I'm not sure I get it. Harmonious Knight looks interesting. It's an alternate version of inspire courage... so it doesn't stack/can't be used at the same time as the bardic ability? Is that correct? It's a nice alternative, to be sure!

I completely forgot about the devoted performer feat. after looking at them both more closely you'd likely want both or neither depending on how you want to build it. Devoted Performer, as it relates to bardic music, only gives you additional uses. Initiate, only gives you new types of music, such as inspire greatness, inspires heroics etc. Neither advance Inspire Courage.

As for the harmonious knight it doesn't count as a different effect. It is exactly the same thing as the bard's inspire courage, it'd be similar to having two separate bards use inspire courage. However the RAW of the substitution doesn't have the Inspire Courage scale with paladin levels, it's just +1 plus whatever bonuses you can tack on. Not sure if that's how they intended it or not, you may be able to talk your DM into letting it scale with level.

[Waazraath]

(almost) full bard is fine. I play a similar build atm, cleric 1 / bard 11 / warblade 1. Cleric dip is very strong, for other devotion feats (protection devotion is nice, and it's cool if you can give your allies in one turn +5 on AC and +6 on attack/damage). I didn't go for dragonfire inspiration, cause 1) enemies might be immune and 2) if they're not, it might be so much extra damage the DM gets annoyed. Really, words of creation and some spells / feats / items is powerfull enough. You can IC with 1 or 2 dips by the way, the delay isn't that bad if you make good picks. If you go snowflake wardance, consider 2wf, you have an item that gives it for free (or improved 2wf, if you already have it) - works niche with your pumped up attack and damage from IC. I don't know how items are done in your campaign, but if you dont have an ye olde magick shoppe, ancestral relic might be worth it for a crystal echoblade.

[Willie the Duck]

(almost) full bard is fine. I play a similar build atm, cleric 1 / bard 11 / warblade 1. Cleric dip is very strong, for other devotion feats (protection devotion is nice, and it's cool if you can give your allies in one turn +5 on AC and +6 on attack/damage). I didn't go for dragonfire inspiration, cause 1) enemies might be immune and 2) if they're not, it might be so much extra damage the DM gets annoyed. Really, words of creation and some spells / feats / items is powerfull enough. You can IC with 1 or 2 dips by the way, the delay isn't that bad if you make good picks. If you go snowflake wardance, consider 2wf, you have an item that gives it for free (or improved 2wf, if you already have it) - works niche with your pumped up attack and damage from IC. I don't know how items are done in your campaign, but if you dont have an ye olde magick shoppe, ancestral relic might be worth it for a crystal echoblade.

How do you handle your squishiness?

(Not yours in particular, the bard's low hp and light armor)

[ComaVision]

I like a few levels of Paladin (of Freedom) for Divine Grace + BaB + HD. If Dragon Magazine is an available source, the feat Chaos Music can help make up for the lost Bard progression.

[John Longarrow]

Light armor is normally not a problem with a bard type build. Most have a decent dex, so the max AC heavy armors have levels out. Depending on build you may even find dropping down from a chain shirt beneficial if your total AC goes up.

For HPs, there is always improved toughness. That is equal to +2 to con for HPs. If you really need the HPs, starting as a high HP melee class helps a lot. There is little difference in game between what a Bard (X) does and what a Warblade (1)/Bard (x-1) does. The difference in HPs at low levels is decent though.

[Waazraath]

How do you handle your squishiness?

(Not yours in particular, the bard's low hp and light armor)

in general:
- protection devotion, mithril plate and alter self for a very high AC
- use items to increase con score for hp
- use mirror image, swift invisibility and dimension door (last two to escape if needed)
- the build has great saves, and has access to ToB maneuvers (concentration instead of saving throw)
- 1/day reroll from luck domain, lore song ACF for instant boost to saves
- travel devotion + tumble to get away

In my specific case:
- we rolled ability scores, was lucky so high con, rolled great for hp (12 for the warblade level, several 6's for the bard), and took improved toughness just for laugs (cause the build was good enough and another +2 to inspire courage felt like overdoing it);
- dex score was high as well, which also helped for AC

[Warrnan]

Google the "A Game" paladin. This is what I call the "heavy metal bard". No bard levels but goes harmonious knight and other type feats to be a holy bruiser type character with a side of inspire courage. Basically it's a paladin 20 with a lot of ACFs voltroned together. Very cool

Second idea. Bard9, virtuoso1, sublime chord1, virtuoso10.

This build has 9th level wizard spells, 19th level inspire courage and tons of skills. You can do almost anything with this build. Take the standard Inspire courage optimization feats Along with Silverbrow human or dragonborn for mundane flight (see undispelable). grab a long sword and snowflake wardance and you can cut people up fairly well while giving the whole party +12d6 Fire or +12 to hit and damage roughly, depending on how the Dm rules the doubling from words of creation. It also includes lots of UMD.

I played the second build in a long term campaign. Really fun.

[Waazraath]

Google the "A Game" paladin. This is what I call the "heavy metal bard". No bard levels but goes harmonious knight and other type feats to be a holy bruiser type character with a side of inspire courage. Basically it's a paladin 20 with a lot of ACFs voltroned together. Very cool


It's here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8971.msg202398#msg202398

[Hiro Quester]

To counter squishiness, learn Sirine's grace spell at 4th level. Enhances dex and cha by 4, and adds your cha bonus as a deflection bonus to AC. If you can find a way to extend (or persist) it even better.

[Exemplis]

Maybe Bard 8 / Paladin of Freedom(Harmonious Knight) 2 / Sublime chord 1 / Whatever +1BAB +1CR X.
Take Music of Creation ACF to swap Inspire Cmpetence for the Song of the Heart. Or even go Martial Study / Martial Stance / Song of the White Raven if you can persuade you DM.
With Snowflake and Knowledge Devotion you will get a nice combat bard.

[Willie the Duck]

Nice spell find, Hiro. That's pretty cool. 4th level spells are a bit late to start thinking about protection, but I suppose alter self (troglodyte for +6 NA) and mirror image hold up the earlier levels. I hate the spellcaster game of having to spend your first round casting rnd/level protections, but that's part of the package (my last character was the party beatstick, so I just have to readjust my mindset).

Your example sounds fun Exemplis, but sadly (actually gladly, but sadly for the discussion) my DM is not into dipping 1 level of sublime chord than going off with something else to advance it.

I'm thinking about Waazraath's idea of 1 level cleric dip. If I did that, I'd still be able to start sublime chord or lyric thaumaturge at 7th. I'll have to think about that. Certainly either cleric1 or paladin 2 would be interesting.

[Hiro Quester]

I played a bard/SC Gish a while back. With Sirine's Grace I had a better AC than our party fighter.

There are possibly more ways of milking a high charisma than any other attribute, for bonusedps to useful things. See the X stat to y bonus thread for more.

Another good spell at 4th level is Ruin Delver's Fortune. Immediate action add your CHA bonus to any saving throw, or add 2xcha bonus in temporary hit points. That saved my bacon many times.

Gauntlets of heartfelt blows add your CHA bonus in fire damage to every melee attack.

And if you really want to cut things up, slippers of battledancing let you use CHA instead of str or dex for attack and damage. But you need to move 10feet as part of a move action to do so. So no full attacks unless you dip spirit lion totem barbarian (cc) for pounce.

Another important spell to learn is Harmonize (RoS). 10 mins/level lets you begin bardic music as a move action. With that (and the melodic casting feat) active you can sing inspire courage and cast a spell in the same round. It was my routine to sing inspire courage and cast haste at the start of every encounter. Then sing inspire greatness or dragonfire inspiration, and cast a self-buff (sirine's grace), and then SFWD into melee.

Also, get a wand of lesser restoration to immediately cure the exhaustion resulting from using snowflake wardance.

[Waazraath]

I'm thinking about Waazraath's idea of 1 level cleric dip. If I did that, I'd still be able to start sublime chord or lyric thaumaturge at 7th. I'll have to think about that. Certainly either cleric1 or paladin 2 would be interesting.

I went cloistered cleric. Traded (bonus) knowledge domain for knowledge devotion, took protection domain and traded it for protection devotion, kept the luck domain, and took travel devotion (a cleric can have more then 2 devotion feats). So what it gained me was +2 on the two most important saves, 2 free feats (that are very good with this build), turn undead, a 1/day reroll, 1st level cleric spells, and lore (I traded bardic knowledge for an ACF, so that was nice as well). Paladin 2 also has very nice things, like +2 bab, more hp (but fewer skillpoints), and detect evil at will, and divine grace... but I think the cleric is better, cause several pally abilities (smite, lay on hands) only advance on more pally levels.

[Willie the Duck]

Is trading domains for devotion feat in Complete Champion? I'll have to look into that. I want both Knowledge devotion and healing devotion (we are not in an area where we can up and buy our wands of clw to deal with our out-of-combat healing needs, so healing domain for a high Charisma character would really up our daily hp output). Sadly, I don't think there's a FR god that has those two. :-P

[WeaselGuy]

Sadly, I don't think there's a FR god that has those two. :-P

You can worship an ideal instead of a Deity, as per the PHB.

[rrwoods]

Is trading domains for devotion feat in Complete Champion?

Yep, same book the feats themselves are in.

[Willie the Duck]

You can worship an ideal instead of a Deity, as per the PHB.

No, I can't. This entire build would be massively simpler if I were working in a vacuum, but I have a DM to work around (/with).

But thanks.

[WeaselGuy]

No, I can't. This entire build would be massively simpler if I were working in a vacuum, but I have a DM to work around (/with).

But thanks.

Well, that's useful information to know before suggesting things that don't normally go together... Give me a few minutes to look at a slew of FR deities to see if that combination of domains matches your alignment.

[Waazraath]

Cloistered cleric (from unearthed arcana) gives knowledge devotion as a bonus domain; basicly, you get an extra domain, even if it not one your deity normally would (this could give some unlogical combinations, role play wise). How this works with devotion feats is a bit unclear, how stuff interacts with each other. It's a 'ask your DM', I guess.
- cloistered cleric gives knowledge as a bonus domain
- devotion feat rules for clerics (p53 complete champion) state that a cleric can trade a domain for a domain feat. Knowledge devotion has a prereq though (5 ranks any knowledge; only in text, not in table); can you switch your domain for the domain feat without the prereq? (ask your DM). Also, these rules assume that the domain you trade is one offered by your deity (which isn't the case with bonus domains (so again, ask your DM).

If your DM is lenient, you can pick a deity with healing, and it's fine. Maybe healing and protection, or healing and law, and get 3 domain feats (cleric's can, normally it's 2 max).

[WeaselGuy]

Cloistered cleric (from unearthed arcana) gives knowledge devotion as a bonus domain; basicly, you get an extra domain, even if it not one your deity normally would (this could give some unlogical combinations, role play wise). How this works with devotion feats is a bit unclear, how stuff interacts with each other. It's a 'ask your DM', I guess.
- cloistered cleric gives knowledge as a bonus domain
- devotion feat rules for clerics (p53 complete champion) state that a cleric can trade a domain for a domain feat. Knowledge devotion has a prereq though (5 ranks any knowledge; only in text, not in table); can you switch your domain for the domain feat without the prereq? (ask your DM). Also, these rules assume that the domain you trade is one offered by your deity (which isn't the case with bonus domains (so again, ask your DM).

If your DM is lenient, you can pick a deity with healing, and it's fine. Maybe healing and protection, or healing and law, and get 3 domain feats (cleric's can, normally it's 2 max).


Ilmater (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ilmater) - Healing & Law
Skoraeus Stonebones (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Skoraeus_Stonebones) - Healing, Law, & Protection

Skoraeus is typically worshiped by Stone Giants, whereas Ilmater is one of those typically worshiped by Humans.

[Willie the Duck]

Also Torm, who is healing and protection.

Protection vs. law. Hmmm. I think I'd say protection.

Waazraath, I'd take cloistered cleric at level 2, so I could meet the reqs for knowledge devotion.

So, cloistered cleric 1 can net me knowledge, healing, and protection devotion. Hmmm. My other feats I think will be...
B (human) Nymph’s Kiss
1 Melodic Casting
3 Snowflake Wardance
6 Words of Creation
9 (?)
12 Minor Shapeshift
All of a sudden, I have an excess feat somehow. Suggestions?

[WeaselGuy]

Also Torm, who is healing and protection.

I didn't include Torm, because those are his prior domains. Really comes down to when during 3rd edition FR you're campaign is set, as to which domains certain deities still have control over.

[Willie the Duck]

I guess I don't even know what that means. Are those not his domains as of the PGtF?

I didn't realize that there was metaplot advancement within the 3rd edition (I'm certainly lost as to everything that happened during 4th).

And yes, I guess we're on the early side.

[Hiro Quester]

For that spare feat there are a lot of good candidates.

Bards have a lot of extendable spells, if you want to bring in some metamagic.

Doomspeak is possibly the best debuff effect in the game. Use bardic music to give the target -10 on all saving throws, attack rolls, ability checks until the beginning of your next turn. When you or your wizard buddy have a save-or-suck spell at the ready, fire this off first for insta-win.

Lingering song is excellent if you will be performing more than one type of bardic music effect. Each lasts for 10 rounds after you stop. So you can sing inspire courage in one round, then inspire greatness the next, and both last 10 rounds.

If you can get some kind of draconic heritage, or take the feat, then dragonfire inspiration is awesomefor adding extra d6s of damage to every hit your party makes.

Even improved initiative is a good investment for a bard. You will often have party members delaying until after you begin singing anyway. Better if you are already going first.

[Warrnan]

Smite to song feat is typically how Paladins get scaling inspire courage. This is why a game paladin's are typically Pal20 built.

[Waazraath]

Also Torm, who is healing and protection.

Protection vs. law. Hmmm. I think I'd say protection.

Waazraath, I'd take cloistered cleric at level 2, so I could meet the reqs for knowledge devotion.

So, cloistered cleric 1 can net me knowledge, healing, and protection devotion. Hmmm. My other feats I think will be...
B (human) Nymph’s Kiss
1 Melodic Casting
3 Snowflake Wardance
6 Words of Creation
9 (?)
12 Minor Shapeshift
All of a sudden, I have an excess feat somehow. Suggestions?

Plenty of options, Hiro Quester gave imho good suggestions. In addition to those, you could go for:
- the two weapon fighting feat tree (extra attacks with all buffs from IC, snowflake wardance, knowledge devotion)
- that spell from CAr that gives you a familiair
- a bloodline feat from dragon compendium for extra spells
- otherworldly (for alter self, though this might be to abusive)
- arcane preparation (if you're good, so you can cast sanctified spells, especially the armor one)
- extra turning (since you use several devotion feats)

[Hiro Quester]

TWF can be awesome on a SFWD melee bard. But for that I suggest a wand of Heroics. Each casting of the spell gives you 10 minutes' use of a fighter bonus feat.

So if you can prepare for combat take three rounds and you can have TWF, ITWF, and GTWF. With IC bonuses and SFWD you can often wear the -10 penalty for the third off-hand attack and still have a good chance of doing nasty damage.

Of course, you need to keep UMD maxed out, but you should be doing that anyway.

[Willie the Duck]

Buying a wand is less possible in this world, althoufg I see your point.

twf does sound good, but i figured I would be shaapechanging with alter self for natural attacks. Bad idea?

[tiercel]

Part of what you'll want to figure out is how much you want to be a pure sing+cast buffer vs how much you want to mix it up with attacks of your own as well. (Or if you really want the bard/sorcerer theurge Sublime Chord/Virtuouso build.)

One way to pump out attacks, especially if you are worried about "squishy," is archery; the main problem is the number of feats you'll have to kiss goodbye. Archery is helped quite a bit by IC bonuses...

If you want melee, well, you're not necessarily any squishier than, say, a melee rogue, especially with tricks like Mirror Image and Alter Self (the latter for natural armor bonuses). The sooner you can get your hands on a Lesser Metamagic Rod, Extend, the more likely it is that a single Alter Self will buff you for more than one combat. Having a wand, or even a few scrolls, of Shield to UMD would be relevant to your interests. (Note: if wands aren't easy to buy in your campaign, don't worry too much about your 1st level spell choices since most of your 1st level castings will tend to wind up as Inspirational Boost, if you can get it.)

If Magic Item Compendium is in play, just take TWF and let Gloves of the Balanced Hand take care of ITWF for you (and don't worry about GTWF). Also? Crystal Echoblade and even Mithralmist Shirt are relatively low-cost items you'll probably want to scoop up as finances allow.

If you're getting into combat yourself, you might want Dex > Int; the reverse is better for a pure buffer/skillmonkey. (If you're not concentrating on boosting spellcasting/going Sublime Chord, you probably don't need to start with 18 Cha.)

If you're not getting into combat so much yourself, you'll want to take stock of how much IC optimization your game can take. Full DFI/Words of Creation optimization may result in DM banhammering, depending on your table's playstyle; also check to see what your DM's policy on enforcing Exalted, i.e. code of conduct/alignment, is going to be like if you're taking [Exalted] feats.

[Waazraath]

The thing with natural attacks is that they don´t get the bonus from snowflake wardance, I think. If getting items is an issue in your campaign, ancestral relic might be worth it.

I like the thread btw, I see a lot of advice that I can use myself :)

[Hiro Quester]

That's right. SFWD only adds CHA to attack for slashing weapons you hold in one hand. So unless you have a generous DM, natural weapons won't do that.

[Willie the Duck]

Good point. I spaced on that (as well).

[Hiro Quester]

No trying to be too much of a downer, coz you have a potentially awesome build here. But you should also check with your DM about dipping a cloistered cleric on wandering adventuring bard.

For skill points you want bard at first level. So this bard guy decides to cloister himself away for a while and pray, instead of traveling about the country telling and collecting stories.

You'd have to come up with a good backstory reason for that dip. Talk to your DM before planning too much in that direction.

[Waazraath]

Cloistered cleric gives 6 skillpoints/lvl as well, I think. I took it at lvl 1 (my DM was lenient in regard to switching the knowledge domain for the knowledge devotion feat, disregarding the prereq). I understand your point though, story wise bard 1 / cloistered cleric 1 / bard 2 is a lot more difficult to explain. Some DM's totally seperate fluff from crunch, then it isn't a problem. Else, you might try a refluff; both bard and cloistered cleric could be played knowledge driven, you could make the cleric less cloistered and more traveling storie gatherer, or something like that.

[Willie the Duck]

We start at level 2, so the backstory should write itself--cloistered cleric/bard scholar of Torm studies heroism and then wants to go out and put it into practice.