Paladin Advice (Wrath of the Righteous)

[Element Zero]

I need some advice from the Playground, since my at home help is just as torn as I am.

I've built a sword-and-board half-orc Paladin (suboptimal, yes, but it's what I wanted), focusing on tanking and absorption. I'm already rocking Ferocious Resolve, and next feat I'm going to get Antagonize. Partially for flavor, and partially because I like high crit ranges, I'm following Sarenrae and using a scimitar in one hand.

Here's my question; should I sacrifice spellcasting to pick up the Tempered Champion archetype (scattered fighter bonus feats, Warpriest sacred weapon), or just stay vanilla Paladin and choose a different weapon, or something else? I'm torn, and I can't decide. Please help me out.

[Geddy2112]

Pally spellcasting has some nice gems-heroic defiance comes to mind as being incredibly useful for your particular build. However, the tempered champion gets some amazing feats that are normally fighter only. If your party has no other divine caster or UMD buff to cast things like restoration, then keep the spells. If you want to deal more sheer damage and be a combat monster, take the champion.

I think the champion is probably more your build-you want to antagonize enemies close to you and force them to attack your stupid high AC(full plate, tower shield) then go back in with the scimitar and wreck their world. Some of the 1 handed and shield+weapon tricks are really good. Plus you can antagonize a spellcaster and really ruin their day with the disruptive feat.

Really, neither is the wrong answer, it just depends on what you want to do and what your party composition is.

[Element Zero]

Really, neither is the wrong answer, it just depends on what you want to do and what your party composition is.

Sorry, pertinent details I suppose. Inquisitor (archery focused), Wizard (headed for Eldritch Knight), Cleric of Cayden (support/heals), Bloodrager (damage, damage, some more damage).

[Geddy2112]

Sorry, pertinent details I suppose. Inquisitor (archery focused), Wizard (headed for Eldritch Knight), Cleric of Cayden (support/heals), Bloodrager (damage, damage, some more damage).

The cleric is a +1 to your not needing spells for healing, but the bloodrager and eldritch knight can do plenty of beating on their own, and the inquisitor will do plenty of damage for a +3 to keeping spells. You don't need the extra combat focused feats of the tempered champion, you need spells to make you a better tank(and your party needs that). The paladin list is overflowing with tanky spells, and with a cleric, wizard, and inquisitor you won't need to prepare anything else.

Level 1-You don't need heroes defiance because of your half orc ability to fight on after death, but it is still handy because it can prevent you from being killed outright and is bonus healing. Prepare at least 1. Grace can help you get into position to tank, but you might not need it with high AC. Word of resolve and liberating command can help your allies when you can rush over and help them yourself.

Level 2-Paladin's sacrifice, shield other, and sacred bond are going to be standard. All of the litanies are good picks, as well as fires of entanglement.

Level 3-Archons aura is incentive for enemies to attack you and a good debuff. Divine transfer and litany of escape are also good here.

Level 4-blaze of glory and kings castle are daily prep's. Sacrificial oath and chains of light are potential picks.

[Element Zero]

The cleric is a +1 to your not needing spells for healing, but the bloodrager and eldritch knight can do plenty of beating on their own, and the inquisitor will do plenty of damage for a +3 to keeping spells. You don't need the extra combat focused feats of the tempered champion, you need spells to make you a better tank(and your party needs that). The paladin list is overflowing with tanky spells, and with a cleric, wizard, and inquisitor you won't need to prepare anything else.

Cool. Cool cool cool. With all of that in mind, should I stick with the scimitar, since I'm losing out on the Warpriest damage progression, and I'd still like to kill the occasional bad guy I think that 1d6 base damage is going to hurt in the long run. Do you have another suggestion for a one-handed martial weapon?

[Geddy2112]

Cool. Cool cool cool. With all of that in mind, should I stick with the scimitar, since I'm losing out on the Warpriest damage progression, and I'd still like to kill the occasional bad guy I think that 1d6 base damage is going to hurt in the long run. Do you have another suggestion for a one-handed martial weapon?

I think the scimitar is perfect-it has a great crit range and is thematic for your goddess. Take improved critical and you will be doing just fine in the damage department. You could take the gandasa to get more damage, or a trident to be able to brace, but the crit of the scimitar is best. With such a build, you could go with combat expertise and fighting defensively to try an all or nothing approach-on a 15 you will likely hit, even fighting defensive and the combat expertise penalty. A 15 is a crit with a scimitar, so you have a 30% chance for oomph. This strategy also pushes your AC into the stratosphere, and make sure you have 3 ranks in acrobatics to get the max benefit of defensive fighting. You might want to look into improved and greater trip-a tripped enemy won't be getting to your buddies anytime soon. You could get a flail or anklus for the +2 bonus and the ability to drop it instead of being tripped if you jabrony the roll, but you can still use the scimitar to trip fine.

You want to tank-you don't want to be too deadly or enemies will run,but be a threat enough you have to be addressed. The crit scimitar is a perfect mix of this.

[Florian]

Hm....
This AP uses the Mythic rules, so some things work differently here, some are enhanced, other fall below normal expectations. It goes up to level 20 and MT 10, so to the absolute maximum. This also means that you get 10 regular feats to work with, as well as 5 mythic feats versions. Mostly, to take a mythic feat version, you need the regular feat version as a prereq, so that governs a lot of your feat choices.
In addition, mythic spells are a thing here and quite nice to have, so I would´t drop spell casting, as you lose out on that experience.

So, on one hand, stick to using a plain old Paladin builds that mostly works on very basic feats, so that there is a mythic counterpart feat available, use the remaining 5 feats to get the stuff that is necessary for tanking/survival. You will upgrade that by picking the Guardian mythic path.

[Kol Korran]

Hi there. I have been DMing this AP for some time now (My group nears the end of the fourth module now). I have been investing quite a lot of time and effort into it, due to the AP... lacking in some respects, at least in my opinion. I made a big log for it on this forum. (Don't read. TONS of spoilers) I have discussed with a few other DMs, and read about different approaches to the game. While the AP is quite linear in most parts, many DMs make adjustments to it, to fit their own group. With that said, I may have a few ideas for you, and some for the DM and the group. No worries- I won't spoil anything I think...

So some thoughts:
The AP is a very classic struggle of good vs demon, as such a paladin is EXTREMELY effective in it, and fits the story very very well... At some points in the AP, there are a few little extra perks for paladins, though mostly nice touches, not a matter of imbalance.

The AP does use the mythic rules. They are... a major is sure in the second and above modules. Using them is a BIG decision for the game- On one point, many people choose the AP BECAUSE it uses the mythic rules, which makes the party feel like damn legendary, once in an era super heroes! But on the other hand, they make the game very, very difficult for the DM to manage, and complicate characters for the players as well, if they are not very involved and serious players mechanically. Also, a major problem is that it seems from the 3rd module and above, the designers seems to have neglected the mythic powers in regards for some challenges- for example, most encounter CR assume the characters only have their regular levels, and completely disregard the major power boost from the mythic tiers. Many DMs who tried to run the AP as is found that the encounters from that module are a joke if you don't seriously upgrade them.

It complicates player options as well. Casters for example, as their path ability, basically get the ability to cast any spell on their list, spontaneously, using mythic power. At first this sounds like fun, but later on it bogs down the game, with the casters trying to use the perfect spell for the perfect situation, but going through huge lists of spells. (Not to mention how this trivializes quite a few challanges). Mundanes get great stuff as well. The Barbarian in our group dealt 50-80 damage on average in about 10th level, and build on crits, and could deliver about 300+ damage every 4-5 strikes or so. And my group is at best mediocre optimizers, probably less...

In short- read about mythic rules before going into the game, as it changes it quite drastically. The AP can be played without them, and with not a great need to change.

Another major issue is the Campaign traits. Unlike previous APs, in this module the campaign traits are also connected directly to the mythic paths, which is simply- BAD design! It pretty much shoehorns most characters to pick a campaign trait corresponding to their class. (Who'se story may not appeal to the player) My suggestion? Have the party choose whatever campaign trait they like, and have the choice of mythic path be separate from that. Due to a small mix up in our campaign, a replacement character ended up choosing the trait connected to the guardian path (Forgot it's name), and it ended up quite broadening her skills, and added something cool for her character, while the one connected to the mage, would have added very little to it.
In fact, I'd suggest to pick traits NOT directly connected or fitting the class. It adds some depths, and some nice options, to complement the characters' weakness, instead of putting even more into fields it is already strong in. The characters that went with traits connected to their path nearly never used them in my campaign.

The campaign traits also has... somewhat problematic resolution later on in the campaign. I kinda worked some possible solutions for that as well, but that's something to discuss with the DM.

other DMs and me have had some ideas and discussions about this AP, and some ideas on how to improve it, and fix some plot holes and the like. If you wish, tell your DM to contact me, and I will gladly help as I can. I've even made some threads dealing with the topic. Some DMs have run this campaign pretty much as written, and their parties did have fun. I just think there are some major issues that could be made significantly better.

Good luck with your game! The Worldwound awaits...

[Florian]

@Kol Korran:

I GMed that particular AP myself some time ago.
Back then, we came to the conclusion that mid to high op character design and the mythic rules don´t mesh well and have pretty broad overlap at times. You can reach some effects the same way and earlier with the regular stuff before it becomes available as mythic stuff, for example.
So, back then we decided that we only use stuff that is supported by and meshes well with the mythic rules, leading to a bit "blander" builds as usual but fitting well to the power level.