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John Longarrow
2016-01-14, 11:25 AM
I've been re-reading a few classes and prestige classes. One that stands out in my minds a 'WTF??" is DragonSlayer (Draconomicon). You need to be at least 5th level to get it, its half caster/full BAB, and its great capstone ability is True Strike... once per day. Everything else screams "There is a purpose for this", but giving a 15th level character who's probably got either a level in Wizard/Sorcerer or maybe Cleric True Strike? And limiting it to once per day? Doesn't make a lick of sense to me, even if you didn't have ANY casting going in.

So playground, what other 'What were they thinking?!?' capstones have you found?

dascarletm
2016-01-14, 11:27 AM
Well, this is a classic, but Risen Martyr.

The capstone is.... You die.

Telonius
2016-01-14, 11:30 AM
By level 20, the Rogue is so good at hiding that nobody can find its capstone.

Dragon Disciple is another famous one (mainly for the rules dysfunction): the capstone actually disqualifies you from the Prestige Class.

Kraken
2016-01-14, 11:31 AM
As pointed out in a somewhat recent thread, magelord's capstone gives you an ability that you already possess, due to the authors not understanding how cleric casting works.

dascarletm
2016-01-14, 11:33 AM
Also any class who has a capstone of, "You become another creature type."
There might be ways to abuse this, but most of the time it means your friendly caster can't put some buffs on you, and you get some minor abilities. Darkvision or immunity to poison/critical hits if you are lucky. These are nice don't get me wrong, but I think they make more sense as a mid-level bonus.

ComaVision
2016-01-14, 11:47 AM
Every base class in the PHB?

TheIronGolem
2016-01-14, 11:53 AM
Also any class who has a capstone of, "You become another creature type."
There might be ways to abuse this, but most of the time it means your friendly caster can't put some buffs on you, and you get some minor abilities. Darkvision or immunity to poison/critical hits if you are lucky. These are nice don't get me wrong, but I think they make more sense as a mid-level bonus.

What bothers me even more about this kind of capstone is that they make it so that you can't fulfill your character concept until the game is almost over. Don't make me spend nine levels as a Lich Wannabe before letting me become a lich right as we're about to fade to black and roll credits. Let me become a Junior Lich right away, and then you can go ahead and make me spend those other nine levels unlocking my lich-y potential.

Triskavanski
2016-01-14, 11:57 AM
Capstop that is "You don't age."

You still die of old age typically, You just don't gain the negatives from getting older. Might not even get the benefits either.



Non-Capstone Classes.
There is several where you just kinda get a little stronger in a previous ability. Like Unseen Seer gets a +1d6 on damage


I'll go through a few more and see what I can find.



EDIT:

So far I've found the ones that are bad

Does nothing
Minor increase

The ones that are horrible

Mess up the character

And the ones that are utterly dismal
Make the character completely unplayable.

Risen Mayter was one, where you finally get to die.
Monteblank - You become an NPC

Troacctid
2016-01-14, 12:52 PM
Soulcaster's capstone is pretty useless. Spend spell slots to get essentia...but it has to be a spell slot of your highest level, and the essentia only lasts 1 round. Yeah, thanks, I'm sure I'll use that all the time.

Zaq
2016-01-14, 02:02 PM
PrCs that have you pick several times from a list of abilities with no prereqs are bad design to begin with, but it becomes even more offensive when the capstone is another one of those picks. The two most egregious examples (though by no means are they the only ones) that stand out in my mind are Stonelord and Thunder Guide. In each case, you pick five times from the same list, and you can't double up. There's no prereqs on the abilities you're picking, so you can take any of them from the start. Naturally, you're going to pick the best one first, right? Then the second best, and so on. So your reward for sticking with a class for ten levels is . . . an ability you've passed up four times already. Woohoo?

There are a handful of PrCs (the two I can think of immediately are Fatespinner and Urban Savant) that offer full casting advancement except for the final level. Now, we can talk all day about whether it's good design philosophy in the abstract to have 5/5 and 10/10 casting advancement exist at all, but the fact remains that as the game is actually played, it's very rare for it to be worthwhile to give up a level of casting to get whatever toy is offered as a capstone, so for the purposes of most people, the last level of those classes may as well not exist.

Has anyone mentioned the classic Green Star Adept yet? Losing your CON score is not a winning deal for most characters, especially when it comes at the end of a 10-level PrC—meaning that you had to survive to somewhere around ECL 15 already, so it's not like going Necropolitan (where you just dump your CON score at the beginning because it won't matter past ECL 3 or so).

Telonius
2016-01-14, 02:10 PM
PrCs that have you pick several times from a list of abilities with no prereqs are bad design to begin with, but it becomes even more offensive when the capstone is another one of those picks. The two most egregious examples (though by no means are they the only ones) that stand out in my mind are Stonelord and Thunder Guide. In each case, you pick five times from the same list, and you can't double up. There's no prereqs on the abilities you're picking, so you can take any of them from the start. Naturally, you're going to pick the best one first, right? Then the second best, and so on. So your reward for sticking with a class for ten levels is . . . an ability you've passed up four times already. Woohoo?

Fighter is probably the epitome of this problem.

Troacctid
2016-01-14, 02:14 PM
Fighter is probably the epitome of this problem.

Not really, since Fighter feats still have prerequisites, so you're picking from a different list at higher levels.

Triskavanski
2016-01-14, 02:33 PM
Fighters at least have pre-reqs. If we're going with 3.5 they have weapon supremacy. This one here looks absolutely wonderful if you stuck with it.

You get +4 vs disarm, pretty ho-hum.
You can wield your chosen weapon when you're being grappled with no penalty. Got an biggass 2h weapon? Got someone trying to grapple you? Well you're in luck cause you can continue to keep hitting them with your two handed weapon
You can apply a +5 to any attack roll after the first. This pretty makes it so you can have two attack rolls at your full bab.
You can also take ten on a single attack roll per round.
And you get +1 to ac... which I don't think stacks with actual armor. So that blows.

Zaq
2016-01-14, 02:47 PM
Fighter is probably the epitome of this problem.

Yes and no. As has been mentioned, Fighter feats have prereqs. Also, in theory (though I completely understand that it's different in practice), Fighters have enough feats to choose from that it's theoretically possible to still be picking feats you want even at the end. Sure, it almost never works out that way in reality, but the problem's less obvious than with Stonelord or Thunder Guide. (And of course, there's the not-so-small matter that feats aren't as useful as actual class features, but that's a separate problem.)

Getting back to bad PrCs, Mage of the Arcane Order's capstone doesn't make you actively worse or anything, but it's still pretty disappointing. +2 on all CHA-based checks against other members of the Arcane Order? Woo, that was totally more exciting than free metamagic feats and Spellpool access to 9th level spells. Yeah, it advances casting (so, you know, it's not a bad level in its entirety), but since Spellpool access is tied to caster level rather than to Mage of the Arcane Order level, there's really no reason to take the capstone of MotAO instead of moving on to a bigger and better PrC. (I guess it's technically more than a level of Wizard?)

Kraken
2016-01-14, 02:51 PM
That depends on how much you value the familiar advancement you'd get out of another level of wizard. :smallbiggrin:

Andezzar
2016-01-14, 03:04 PM
Dragon Disciple is another famous one (mainly for the rules dysfunction): the capstone actually disqualifies you from the Prestige Class.Oh come on, that has been debunked years ago. You only have to qualify for a PrC at one point - when you take the first level of the PrC. Even the dysfunctional rules from CArc and CW cannot change that due to the primary source rule.

Why it sucks though is that by RAW a template gets applied - all of it. That includes the LA. Same thing for Walker in the Waste and possibly others.

ExLibrisMortis
2016-01-14, 03:16 PM
Fochluchan Lyrists have a pretty great capstone. Mystic Theurges have an even better one.

The Disciple of the Word capstone requires that you make a DC 50 Truespeak check, expend a Stunning Fist use, and spend your immediate action for the round. What do you get? An extra move action. It's like a weaker version of lesser celerity, a second-level spell. The Truespeak check is harder than the UMD check to activate a wand of lesser celerity, too (in fact, it's easier to overcome DR/epic, at DC 45 , using an earlier DotW class feature).

Amphetryon
2016-01-14, 03:59 PM
Crusader's capstone is pretty lackluster, assuming you didn't PrC out into something like JPM.

Harrow
2016-01-14, 06:19 PM
Renegade Mastermaker is a 10 level prestige class, the capstone of which turns you into a Warforged. A +0 LA race.

ATHATH
2016-01-14, 06:39 PM
Renegade Mastermaker is a 10 level prestige class, the capstone of which turns you into a Warforged. A +0 LA race.
Well, it does let you combine race-restricted classes (and feats, although you lose the feats when you lose your old race) with Warforged-only classes and feats.

Hiro Quester
2016-01-14, 07:29 PM
Sublime chord is an awesome PrC for bards. But there is a reason most people only take one or two levels. Every ability it grants after 2 level is pointless, and far overshadowed by the abilities of almost every other class that advances its casting.

The capstone is particularly insulting. You can spend two uses of bardic music to create a weak-assed fireball effect 20 ft radius doing damage equal to your perform check. Your fireball spell has been doing that kind of damage for many many levels already.

Alex12
2016-01-14, 07:42 PM
Master of the Unseen Hand. It's a bad PrC to begin with, since it's a caster PrC that doesn't progress casting, and at the end of the five levels (putting you at, bare minimum, level 10), you gain the ability to...lift a single target up with Telekinesis and drop them. They get a saving throw, and it ends your Telekinesis spell. Which you probably don't have many of because you lost five levels of caster progression.

Note: this criticism doesn't apply if you have telekinesis as an at-will Spell-like. Then it's pretty cool.

PraxisVetli
2016-01-14, 07:43 PM
This far in and no-one said Shining Blade of Heironeous? No capstone, and even at level 9, at which the character is minimum 16, you get a sword that can become shiny so many times per day.

Necroticplague
2016-01-14, 07:58 PM
Master of the Unseen Hand. It's a bad PrC to begin with, since it's a caster PrC that doesn't progress casting, and at the end of the five levels (putting you at, bare minimum, level 10), you gain the ability to...lift a single target up with Telekinesis and drop them. They get a saving throw, and it ends your Telekinesis spell. Which you probably don't have many of because you lost five levels of caster progression.

Note: this criticism doesn't apply if you have telekinesis as an at-will Spell-like. Then it's pretty cool.

Even worse in that, for the most part, you could do this already by using Violent Thrust to fling creatures (just target any empty space in the air within range). Except that an earlier MOTUH class feature makes it so that use doesn't end the spell.

Depending on how you got in, the capstone for Warshaper can be either the best thing since sliced bread (Druid/MoMF entry) or completely freaking useless (Divine minion entry).

ExLibrisMortis
2016-01-14, 08:02 PM
Renegade Mastermaker is a 10 level prestige class, the capstone of which turns you into a Warforged. A +0 LA race.
It gives you the living construct subtype, and since the entry requirement is Type: Humanoid, you get to be a humanoid (living construct), who is treated as warforged for prerequisites and requirements only. That means you aren't affected by heat metal and repel wood like a warforged is (although adamantine or mithril plating will change that, of course), you don't get arcane spell failure chance (again, plating may change that), and you don't get ability score adjustments, slam, changed speed and so on. However, you can still be turned into (say) a lich (and the class is 8/10 casting and requires Craft Wondrous Item, so that slots in nicely), becoming undead (living construct). I think that's pretty cool.

On its own, it's a pretty decent set of immunities, and you get to keep your constitution score. Nice ability, fairly unique, but it's not active, and that makes it a bit boring. Still, not close to being a "What were they thinking?" capstone, in my opinion.

ekarney
2016-01-14, 08:13 PM
Mountebank, the DragCom version.

Capstone: You can use mislead as a Sorcerer of your level around 10 times a day, oh and you get possessed by Orcus and become an NPC until your party rescues you.

Arbane
2016-01-15, 04:17 AM
Do Pathfinder classes count? If so the Monk of the Healing Hand Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-healing-hand) has an impressively bad capstone ability:


True Sacrifice (Su)

At 20th level, in a final selfless act, a monk of the healing hand can draw in his entire ki, which then explodes outward in a 50-foot-radius emanation. All dead allies within the emanation are brought back to life, as if they were the subject of a true resurrection spell with a caster level equal to the monk’s level. When the monk does this, he is truly and utterly destroyed. A monk destroyed in this way can never come back to life, not even by way of a wish or miracle spell or by the power of a deity. Furthermore, the monk’s name can never be spoken or written down again. All written mentions of his name become nothing more than a blank space.

Feddlefew
2016-01-15, 07:13 AM
Do Pathfinder classes count? If so the Monk of the Healing Hand Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-healing-hand) has an impressively bad capstone ability:

With the correct reading and a properly named character, there's probably SOME entity you could completely screw over with that...

Malistrae
2016-01-15, 07:14 AM
Does the Thrall of Orcus' capstone count? I mean the ability to summon a Nightwing as a 15th level caster is nice and all, but it's once per week. This is especially jarring, since by the time the character reaches level 10 in this prestige class, a Nightwing is not that a huge deal.

Vaz
2016-01-15, 07:29 AM
Does Sorcerer count?

Andezzar
2016-01-15, 08:00 AM
Does Sorcerer count?I think all PHB classes have been mentioned already.

Chronos
2016-01-15, 09:58 AM
For the record, Risen Martyr's capstone is not "you die". It's "you go to Heaven". In a game like D&D, for a high-level character, there's a world of difference between those two events. There's nothing that says that, having gone there, you have to stay there. I mean, granted, it doesn't give you any benefit, and it is a bit of a nuisance to be forced to use a Plane Shift spell, but there's no reason it should be the end of your career.

ShurikVch
2016-01-15, 10:06 AM
Let me become a Junior Lich right away, and then you can go ahead and make me spend those other nine levels unlocking my lich-y potential.Do you know about Grim Psion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b) PrC?

For the record, Risen Martyr's capstone is not "you die". It's "you go to Heaven". In a game like D&D, for a high-level character, there's a world of difference between those two events. There's nothing that says that, having gone there, you have to stay there. I mean, granted, it doesn't give you any benefit, and it is a bit of a nuisance to be forced to use a Plane Shift spell, but there's no reason it should be the end of your career.Isn't it the same for any petitioner without planar commitment?

Triskavanski
2016-01-15, 10:39 AM
Pretty much the absolute worst capstones are ones that Automatically remove the character from the player's hands making it dead or an NPC. Be it the Risen Martyr or Monteblank from dragon compendium.

On the next level is the capstones that make your character worse than if he hadn't taken the level. I used to think the Abjurant Champion was one of these if you didn't take it right. Glad I'm wrong about that one and you could use your normal caster level if its more than your Bab

Then I'd say the next level after that is the capstone that doesn't exist. Most of the core classes in 3.5 have this.

After that is the fluffy capstone, stuff like you don't age for example would be here. It might be used but overall its basically fluff. this splits from the non-capstone in that its kinda cool, but ultimately rarely ever has a chance to affect game play

Then you have the non-capstone which is about the same level as fluffy. Stuff like +1d6 sneak attack or +1 dc on a particular spell or school of spells. These ones are kinda bad because its nothing exciting really. This split here is that it affects game play, but has no flavor to it.

Then you have the pathetic capstones. These might be so bad they never get used. Like the CW Samurai's Frightful Presence which causes only those who have less than 20hd to become scared of you. Of course this would be about the same time everything you're fighting is 20hd or more. Maybe a GM could throw you a bone there to make you feel a little more awesome though. Or that one class that once per day you can cast true strike.

In addition to Pathetic capstones you've got capstones that just capstones that just don't make up what you've lost. Bladesinger is one of these (at least to me), where you lose half your caster level and spell progression just so you can make one extra attack at -2 to all attacks. Master of the unseen hand is even more so, as the entire class revolves around a very high level spell that you are most likely not going to be casting at will. (Unless maybe you have a ring of telekinesis?)

And finally you've got the capstones that do make you want to stay in a class. Master Specialist is one of them to me, for illusions at least, where you get three metamagic feats automatically applied to all your illusion spells. Seriously, its like taking nine or so feats, six of them are epic level feats (Auto Still/Auto Silent) Sure it only applies to illusion, but Illusion is one of the most versatile ones out there, especailly when combined with Shadowcrafter.

ATHATH
2016-01-15, 11:02 AM
With the correct reading and a properly named character, there's probably SOME entity you could completely screw over with that...
Name yourself Ao or "a" or "it" or something, and mess with the world.

Alternatively, use it to set up your replacement character, whose name was erased when you sacrificed your old one.

You could also use it for a cohort or something else that's expendable, and it could conclude a nice story arc for them.

John Longarrow
2016-01-15, 11:19 AM
Sublime chord is an awesome PrC for bards. But there is a reason most people only take one or two levels. Every ability it grants after 2 level is pointless, and far overshadowed by the abilities of almost every other class that advances its casting.

The capstone is particularly insulting. You can spend two uses of bardic music to create a weak-assed fireball effect 20 ft radius doing damage equal to your perform check. Your fireball spell has been doing that kind of damage for many many levels already.

its much worse when you realize they get song of timelessness at 6th level (16th character level minimum) which is comparable to the 8th level spell temporal stasis but without the 5,000gp material component. For a combat use this is far better since you can do it at range. THEN at 20th level you get a fireball. If you put that song as the 2nd level song and pushed each of the others it would make a LOT more sense. At 12th level an at will fireball doing damage based on perform would be... nice. If it used one use of bardic music. And if it did sonic, not fire damage (more in theme for it being a song).

Triskavanski
2016-01-15, 11:19 AM
Haha.. If you had cohorts of the healing and and forced them to explode you'd never take any penalties for causing the death of a cohort. Who could even prove you had one?

turbo164
2016-01-15, 01:38 PM
With the correct reading and a properly named character, there's probably SOME entity you could completely screw over with that...

Evil Cult: "You will rue the day you crossed us. Tiamat will devour your souls!"
Monk: "My name is Tiamat, and you know what...I'm not hungry!" *explodes*
Evil Cult: "That seemed unnecessary. Now, I cast Mass Harm in the name of...that dragon lady god thing we've devoted our lives to...wuh?"

Triskavanski
2016-01-15, 02:15 PM
Or you signed a contract with a devil and he's all like "Hahaha I have your soul and thanks this contract you've signed over an entire kingdom to me... " BLAMO Monk goes boom. Now there is no more signatures on that contract and its completely nulled " Aww.. SUCK AN ELF!"

J-H
2016-01-15, 08:40 PM
Do you know about Grim Psion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b) PrC?


Thanks, I'd never seen that!
It's actually a lot more accessible than Lich...

daremetoidareyo
2016-01-15, 11:59 PM
Name yourself Ao or "a" or "it" or something, and mess with the world.

Alternatively, use it to set up your replacement character, whose name was erased when you sacrificed your old one.

You could also use it for a cohort or something else that's expendable, and it could conclude a nice story arc for them.

Punpun Orcus Pazuzu, monk of the healing hand, destined to destroy himself and rid the world of terrible power gaming, forever.

Extra Anchovies
2016-01-16, 12:13 AM
For the record, Risen Martyr's capstone is not "you die". It's "you go to Heaven". In a game like D&D, for a high-level character, there's a world of difference between those two events. There's nothing that says that, having gone there, you have to stay there. I mean, granted, it doesn't give you any benefit, and it is a bit of a nuisance to be forced to use a Plane Shift spell, but there's no reason it should be the end of your career.

It's still worse than a dead level, though - most of the stuff that specifically affects archons, eladrins, or guardinals is probably bad for the target.

I also just noticed that the prohibition of taking levels in non-RM classes after becoming a risen martyr is in the rules text for the Final Ascension - does this mean that only 10th-level Risen Martyrs are subject to this restriction?

Troacctid
2016-01-16, 12:24 AM
I also just noticed that the prohibition of taking levels in non-RM classes after becoming a risen martyr is in the rules text for the Final Ascension - does this mean that only 10th-level Risen Martyrs are subject to this restriction?

Yep, that's a known dysfunction.

John Longarrow
2016-01-16, 12:26 AM
I think the Sorcerer's is one that is pretty bad. Your familiar is now more intelligent than you are. :elan:

nyjastul69
2016-01-16, 12:32 AM
I think the Sorcerer's is one that is pretty bad. Your familiar is now more intelligent than you are. :elan:

The sorcerer class has a capstone stating their familiar is more intelligent than themselves? I missed that one.

John Longarrow
2016-01-16, 12:34 AM
Lvl 19-20 Familiars Int is 15. Most sorcerers won't go that high since its not their casting stat. Kinda a joke.

Zombulian
2016-01-16, 12:45 AM
Lvl 19-20 Familiars Int is 15. Most sorcerers won't go that high since its not their casting stat. Kinda a joke.

If anyone can manage to make it to level 19/20 with less than a 15 in Int I'd be very impressed.

nyjastul69
2016-01-16, 12:47 AM
Lvl 19-20 Familiars Int is 15. Most sorcerers won't go that high since its not their casting stat. Kinda a joke.

I guess I missed the joke. One would expect a familiar to be at least as, if not more, intelligent than a sorcerer though. No surprise there. Sorcs don't really need Int.

John Longarrow
2016-01-16, 01:07 AM
If anyone can manage to make it to level 19/20 with less than a 15 in Int I'd be very impressed.

Depends on the build. For a lot of melee builds Int isn't that important. Likewise for non-Int based casters. I've seen one barbarian hit epic with an 8. Also unofficially had 'favored enemy-house'.

Zombulian
2016-01-16, 01:12 AM
Depends on the build. For a lot of melee builds Int isn't that important. Likewise for non-Int based casters. I've seen one barbarian hit epic with an 8. Also unofficially had 'favored enemy-house'.

I... I know how this game works. I meant from a fluff perspective.

nyjastul69
2016-01-16, 01:20 AM
I... I know how this game works. I meant from a fluff perspective.

Why would Int be needed to achieve epic levels from a fluff perspective? If any single score were needed it's likely to be Wis.

Zombulian
2016-01-16, 01:26 AM
Why would Int be needed to achieve epic levels from a fluff perspective? If any single score were needed it's likely to be Wis.

Someone find that Tippy quote.

Alex12
2016-01-16, 01:33 AM
Why would Int be needed to achieve epic levels from a fluff perspective? If any single score were needed it's likely to be Wis.

Honestly, I'd say Int would be a detriment to reaching epic levels, since anyone with high Int would wonder why the heck they're out risking their lives fighting dragons, demons, kaiju, and all the other assorted things high-level adventurers fight instead of going and using their amazing but non-epic power to forever live a life of luxury and hedonism.

Sith_Happens
2016-01-16, 01:53 AM
As pointed out in a somewhat recent thread, magelord's capstone gives you an ability that you already possess, due to the authors not understanding how cleric casting works.

Magelord is the class that it's impossible to finish before epic anyways, right? Problem solved.:smalltongue:

Zombulian
2016-01-16, 02:30 AM
Honestly, I'd say Int would be a detriment to reaching epic levels, since anyone with high Int would wonder why the heck they're out risking their lives fighting dragons, demons, kaiju, and all the other assorted things high-level adventurers fight instead of going and using their amazing but non-epic power to forever live a life of luxury and hedonism.

I would think that that sort of reasoning applies more to the quote below.


Why would Int be needed to achieve epic levels from a fluff perspective? If any single score were needed it's likely to be Wis.

You don't have to have common sense (Wis) to have high Int. But I find the idea of someone avoiding all of the ways that you could die on your way to level 20 and simultaneously having below 15 Int (honestly an Int below 20 probably wouldn't cut it) very improbable. Unless you have incredible luck, but that's not a stat in this game.

Arbane
2016-01-16, 03:06 AM
You don't have to have common sense (Wis) to have high Int. But I find the idea of someone avoiding all of the ways that you could die on your way to level 20 and simultaneously having below 15 Int (honestly an Int below 20 probably wouldn't cut it) very improbable. Unless you have incredible luck, but that's not a stat in this game.

D&D intelligence is aptitude for book-learning, not common sense or adaptability.

Rebel7284
2016-01-16, 03:17 AM
Magelord is the class that it's impossible to finish before epic anyways, right? Problem solved.:smalltongue:

Magelord is fairly easy to finish before epic.

Wizard->Spelldancer or Glimmer-something Halfling Wizard->Combat Healer qualify early enough.

Feddlefew
2016-01-16, 08:10 AM
D&D intelligence is aptitude for book-learning, not common sense or adaptability.

I thought INT was book learning and adaptability (hence extra skill points), WIS was common sense and general awareness of self and surroundings?


Punpun Orcus Pazuzu, monk of the healing hand, destined to destroy himself and rid the world of terrible power gaming, forever.

Punpun Orcus Pazuzu is not the same name as Punpun, Orcus, or Pazuzu. Now, if our hypothetical monk had two siblings...

Necroticplague
2016-01-16, 08:45 AM
Magelord is the class that it's impossible to finish before epic anyways, right? Problem solved.:smalltongue:

How's that so? It's only 10 levels long, and pretty trivial to enter by level 10. Just for an example buildpath:

Human Wizard1: Spell Mastery, Singature Spell.
Generic Expert 1: Improved Initiative
Generic Warrior 1: Evasion (pick Reflex as a good save for both generic classes),Improved Initiative
Wizard2:
wizard3:
Wizard4:Weapon Focus (ray)
Wizard5: Heighten Spell, Eldritch Corruption

Bam. Qualifies for magelord, would have 3 levels left after getting the crappy capstone.

DarkEternal
2016-01-16, 08:54 AM
I'll be honest, from a narrative standpoint, that healing monk ability sounds cool as hell. Comes late in your career, you're fighting the evil guy who decimated your party and is about to finish the job. As he kills you, you draw in the mystical powers around you, and as spite and reaching true harmony sacrifice yourself for the world. Your reward is nothing. You saved the world and you got nothing, though you are probably in some plane where they know of your deeds and the people that walk the same way where you selfessly died to save everyone maybe unknowingly bow their heads in respect without even knowing why.


Of course, this being a monk, you're gonna die in the first round and contribute nothing so mechanically it sucks.

Jormengand
2016-01-16, 09:03 AM
Acolyte of the Ego gives you a fifth morphic cadence, but by this point you already have all the good ones.
Bereft gets a 4th-level spell (which is somehow considered 8th-level) which is at least usable nearly at will if you have good truespeak check... and also gets another capstone, which is that you can unname someone, but only if they're already dead, oh and it costs XP.
Brimstone Speaker's godawful breath weapon deals a little more damage. I am quite happy that my spelling checker recognises godawful as a word.
Fiendbinder gets a +5 on CHA checks vs fiends. Fortunately, you also get the ability to summon a bunch of demons with no actual duration so they follow you around forever, so that's cool and having read that ability I now want to abuse it horribly, so only one of your capstones is terrible.

Disciple of the Word is the one truespeak PrC with no bad capstones - it allows you to swap an immediate action into a move action, which it suggests might let you move and full attack on the same turn, but is more likely to be used to dodge out of the way of powerful area spells when the enemy realises that your ninth-level ability allows you to dispel anything that actually targets you. That said, it's not worth the rest of the class. It really isn't.

Chronos
2016-01-16, 09:32 AM
Yeah, it'd be tough to reach epic levels without high Intelligence, but just because you need high Int doesn't mean that you need to be the one who has it. The 6 Int barbarian will do just fine following the plans made by the party's wizard.