Paladorc Tank: Sorcerer 4 / Paladin 11 / Wizard 1

[Trancekat]

Hi All,
I've been hankering to build an "ultimate" tank in 5E (AL rules) and this is what I've come up with. My goal was to get the most resists and highest AC I could. Please let me know if I've missed something or you know of something better. I'm asking for help from those who know more than me.

Race: Duergar
Assume Plate Mail at level 5, and going sword + board.

I originally had a 1 level dip into Sorcerer for Shield, but that would burn up an ASI for War Caster, so I dropped it. I've gone with Cha and Str increases only (per below chart) for Aura of Protection and to be able to hit things to keep them on me and not on the squishies. If there's a better ASI progression, again, I'm open to suggestions.

With Duergar, you get the following resistances:
ADV vs. Poison, Illusions, bring Charmed, or Paralyzed
Fighter gets me Defensive Style, AS, Goading Attack (to be a little sticky), and an ASI.
Pally gets me Protection Style, Oath of Devotion: Immunity to Charm, or if i go Ancients, Resist Spell Damage, Immunity to Fear.

I'd like to maximize my resistances/immunities while getting above a 20 AC.

Thanks for reading!
TK



Level
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16


Class


















Fighter
Second Wind, Saves, Armor / Weapons, Defensive








Action Surge
Martial Archtype (BM)
ASI: Str






Paladin

Divine Sense, Lay on Hands
Protection Style, 1/2 Caster, Divine Smite
Divine Health, Sacred Oath (Devot), 1/2 Caster
ASI: Cha 1/2 Caster
Extra Attack, 1/2 Caster
1/2 Caster, Aura of Protection
Sacred Oath (Devot)
ASI: Str, 1/2 Caster



1/2 Caster
1/2 Caster, Aura of Courage
1/2 Caster, Imp Divine Smite
ASI: Cha, 1/2 Caster








































AC
20
20
20
20
21
21
21
21
21
21
21
21
21
21
21
21


HP
13
22
31
40
49
58
67
76
85
94
103
112
121
130
139
148


Max Spell


1
1
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
3
3
3
3


Spells


















1
-
-
2
3
3
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4


2
-
-
-
-
-
2
2
3
3
3
3
3
3
3
3
3


3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
2
2
3
3


4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-





















Str
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
18
18
18
20
20
20
20
20


Dex
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8


Con
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16


Int
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10


Wis
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10


Cha
14
14
14
14
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
18









Level
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16


Class
Duergar

















Sorcerer






1/1 Caster, Drag, Origin Feature
1/1 Caster, Font of Magic
1/1 Caster, Quicken Spell, Subtle Spell Metamagic
1/1 Caster, ASI: Resilliant (Con)








Paladin
Divine Sense, Lay on Hands
Defense Style, 1/2 Caster, Divine Smite
Divine Health, Sacred Oath (Devot), 1/2 Caster
ASI: Cha 1/2 Caster
Extra Attack, 1/2 Caster
1/2 Caster, Aura of Protection




Sacred Oath (Devot)
ASI: Sentinal, 1/2 Caster
1/2 Caster
1/2 Caster, Aura of Courage
1/2 Caster, Imp Divine Smite
ASI: Tough, 1/2 Caster








































AC
20
21
21
21
21
21
26
26
26
26
26
26
26
26
26
26


HP
13
22
31
40
49
58
66
74
82
100
110
120
130
140
150
192


Max Spell
-
1
1
1
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
3
3
3
3


Spells


















1
-
2
3
3
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4


2
-
-
-
-
2
2
3
3
3
3
3
3
3
3
3
3


3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
2
3
3
3
3
3
3
3


4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
1
2
2
3
3
3


5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
1
1
2


6
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-





















Str +1
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16


Dex
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8


Con +2
17
17
17
17
17
17
17
17
17
18
18
18
18
18
18
18


Int
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8


Wis
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10


Cha
14
14
14
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16





.

[Waazraath]

Why the first level of fighter first? It delays your pally abilities, including 2nd attack, which makes the build significantly weaker at lvl 5. A good con save is very nice of course, for concentration spells, but I don't know if it's worth it.

[Trancekat]

Why the first level of fighter first? It delays your pally abilities, including 2nd attack, which makes the build significantly weaker at lvl 5. A good con save is very nice of course, for concentration spells, but I don't know if it's worth it.

As you already mentioned, it's exclusively for the Con save vs Wis. The reasoning is that the Dwarf Racial gives you a good head start on Wis save effects (Charm/Paralyzed), while Poison is a big benefit, but there's still a lot left out that is Con based. Otherwise you're 100% correct on the starting Fighter 1.

[djreynolds]

I find that no matter what character I roll up with feats, resilient in wis or con is something I will take. So even as a fighter I will take resilient wisdom anyhow, and as a paladin I will take resilient con anyhow. So really there is no reason to take fighter except to 3rd for the archetype features. But that is my opinion and it is tough to say no to feat at 4th level fighter staring you in the face. But a paladin with proficiency in wis and con saves and charisma is good, and shield master will grant you evasion if you make your save, may be an even wash with low dexterity and aura of protection.

Now for the ultimate tank IMO, the fighter/paladin routes you need access to one of three things. The shield spell, defensive duelist, or uncanny dodge. I find the shield spell's +5 as a reaction from level 1-20 is a real bargain, but since you have so many spells for smiting and stuff it will eat up slots if you went eldritch knight/paladin just for the shield spell access. Defensive duelist for a S&B type isn't bad, it scales well and doesn't eat up a spell slot just your reaction as does the shield spell. But defensive duelist for a paladin, who is already MAD, is a tough sell as you need a 13 in dexterity and are fighting with a rapier and shield.

My suggestion is paladin/sorcerer. Forget fighter, and take the defensive style and be able to twin spells for you and your weaker comrades and have more slots available for smiting, concentration spells, and spamming the shield spell. The shield spell will compete with your reaction for protection style anyhow. Stuff like protection from evil is something you can twin on you and a buddy and grants disadvantage versus certain foes and saves your reaction from the protection style to be used for the shield spell.

[Corran]

Agree with djreynolds.

On the paly/sorc build you could even add 2 warlock levels for 2 extra castings of shield per short rest (if your campaign has many encounters per adventuring day) and a reliable ranged attack (EB + relevant invocations). Also, armor of agathys is a fantastic spell ot cast on yourself with a high level slot, if you are tanking. Quickend is also a cool metamagic, allowing you to swift cast self buffs during an encounter (eg quickend blur/protection from evil/ armor of agathys/ mirror image / etc).

Alternatively, if you prefer to use defensive duelist instead of shield (although shield is much better if you are tanking, as the +5 counts gainst every attack until your next turn. the cost you pay for this difference is nothing compared to the benefit), you could just play a dexadin (OoA for extra magic resistance). That ofc means you will have to stay a paladin (no multiclass) to avoid the mad issue.

Adding a few fighter levels to paladin adds damage, no survivability, and generally, it is a dip I dont personally think it helps so much (action surge is the main benefit, you get con saves via resilirnt, as djreynolds explained in his post).

[Trancekat]

I find that no matter what character I roll up with feats, resilient in wis or con is something I will take. So even as a fighter I will take resilient wisdom anyhow, and as a paladin I will take resilient con anyhow. So really there is no reason to take fighter except to 3rd for the archetype features. But that is my opinion and it is tough to say no to feat at 4th level fighter staring you in the face. But a paladin with proficiency in wis and con saves and charisma is good, and shield master will grant you evasion if you make your save, may be an even wash with low dexterity and aura of protection.

Now for the ultimate tank IMO, the fighter/paladin routes you need access to one of three things. The shield spell, defensive duelist, or uncanny dodge. I find the shield spell's +5 as a reaction from level 1-20 is a real bargain, but since you have so many spells for smiting and stuff it will eat up slots if you went eldritch knight/paladin just for the shield spell access. Defensive duelist for a S&B type isn't bad, it scales well and doesn't eat up a spell slot just your reaction as does the shield spell. But defensive duelist for a paladin, who is already MAD, is a tough sell as you need a 13 in dexterity and are fighting with a rapier and shield.

My suggestion is paladin/sorcerer. Forget fighter, and take the defensive style and be able to twin spells for you and your weaker comrades and have more slots available for smiting, concentration spells, and spamming the shield spell. The shield spell will compete with your reaction for protection style anyhow. Stuff like protection from evil is something you can twin on you and a buddy and grants disadvantage versus certain foes and saves your reaction from the protection style to be used for the shield spell.


Thank you. This is REALLY good feedback. I appreciate your help - you make an excellent set of points. I will be reworking this to a Sorcerer/Paladin.

[Trancekat]

Here's what I've change it to. If you don't mind, I would love your opinion on the feats and build overall. I don't typically play a tank/fighter, so this is my first.

Thanks again!



Level
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16


Class
Duergar

















Sorcerer






1/1 Caster, Drag, Origin Feature
1/1 Caster, Font of Magic
1/1 Caster, Quicken Spell, Subtle Spell Metamagic
1/1 Caster, ASI: Resilliant (Con)








Paladin
Divine Sense, Lay on Hands
Defense Style, 1/2 Caster, Divine Smite
Divine Health, Sacred Oath (Devot), 1/2 Caster
ASI: Cha 1/2 Caster
Extra Attack, 1/2 Caster
1/2 Caster, Aura of Protection




Sacred Oath (Devot)
ASI: Sentinal, 1/2 Caster
1/2 Caster
1/2 Caster, Aura of Courage
1/2 Caster, Imp Divine Smite
ASI: Tough, 1/2 Caster








































AC
20
21
21
21
21
21
21

21

26
26
26
26
26
26
26
26


HP
13
22
31
40
49
58
66
74
82
100
110
120
130
140
150
192


Max Spell
-
1
1
1
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
3
3
3
3


Spells


















1
-
2
3
3
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4


2
-
-
-
-
2
2
3
3
3
3
3
3
3
3
3
3


3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
2
3
3
3
3
3
3
3


4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
1
2
2
3
3
3


5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
1
1
2


6
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-





















Str +1
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16


Dex
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8


Con +2
17
17
17
17
17
17
17
17
17
18
18
18
18
18
18
18


Int
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8


Wis
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
10


Cha
14
14
14
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16
16

[Noble_berserker]

Here's what I've change it to. If you don't mind, I would love your opinion on the feats and build overall. I don't typically play a tank/fighter, so this is my first.

Thanks again!

How did you get to 26 AC after you multiclassed into a sorcerer?
If you got that through draconic resilience, you should know that it does not stack with armor. Apart from that, a paladin/sorcerer build could work since you have more spells to support you while taking damage. After you get resilient(con) you should be able to invest into concentration spells and still be a front-liner.

In my opinion you should also look into bladelock, instead of a sorcerer, as it is more suited for melee combat.

[Trancekat]

How did you get to 26 AC after you multiclassed into a sorcerer?
If you got that through draconic resilience, you should know that it does not stack with armor. Apart from that, a paladin/sorcerer build could work since you have more spells to support you while taking damage. After you get resilient(con) you should be able to invest into concentration spells and still be a front-liner.

In my opinion you should also look into bladelock, instead of a sorcerer, as it is more suited for melee combat.

The AC jump is a reflection of using the spell Shield; that would be the effective AC as long as I have spell slots open.

I ruled out the bladelock because it doesn't offer Shield. Even taking the Fiend patron, I didn't see it adding enough to make it the better choice in terms of defense and resistance (not that the Sorcerer adds anything to resistance). Perhaps I missed something - what do you see the Bladelock bringing to the table that I didn't see?

[joaber]

go to lvl 5 sorcerer to get haste.

[bid]

The AC jump is a reflection of using the spell Shield; that would be the effective AC as long as I have spell slots open.
SnB cannot cast shield without warcaster. That would mean taking it at level 4 since level 10 is a little late. I can't seem to find your feat progression (not done yet?).

As a tanking concept, I don't see anything of value past paladin 7 or 8 for the ASI. Pushing sorcerer would give you more smite faster. Otherwise, there might be more tanking features to grab in barbarian (resist), fighter (style) or rogue (expertise).

[Trancekat]

SnB cannot cast shield without warcaster. That would mean taking it at level 4 since level 10 is a little late. I can't seem to find your feat progression (not done yet?).

Subtle Spell - ...cast without Verbal or Somatic components. Emphasis mine....but you are correct and I have updated the table to reflect this point. Thank you for the catch!

The feats are in the chart in the lines with the class, noted by ASI: ...

They are:
4 - Cha
10 - Resilient (Con)
12 - Sentinel
16 - Tough


As a tanking concept, I don't see anything of value past paladin 7 or 8 for the ASI. Pushing sorcerer would give you more smite faster. Otherwise, there might be more tanking features to grab in barbarian (resist), fighter (style) or rogue (expertise).

The natural break points for a paladin are 2, 6, and 11. Since I wanted to get the Oath of Devotion 7th level ability, and an ASI is at 8, and aura of courage is at 10, it made sense to just stick with Pally to 12. The Improved Smite adds pseudo spell slots that I would have burned in Smite. Originally, I did have fighter in here for the second style. Bearbarian is also a strong contender, but I don't think it's worth giving up spell casting (Shield), and heavy armor for the temporary resist.

[bid]

Subtle Spell - ...cast without Verbal or Somatic components. Emphasis mine....but you are correct and I have updated the table to reflect this point. Thank you for the catch!
Very nice. I never thought of replacing warcaster with subtle spell, and it's even better. Thanks for the correction.

[djreynolds]

Subtle Spell - ...cast without Verbal or Somatic components. Emphasis mine....but you are correct and I have updated the table to reflect this point. Thank you for the catch!

The feats are in the chart in the lines with the class, noted by ASI: ...

They are:
4 - Cha
10 - Resilient (Con)
12 - Sentinel
16 - Tough



The natural break points for a paladin are 2, 6, and 11. Since I wanted to get the Oath of Devotion 7th level ability, and an ASI is at 8, and aura of courage is at 10, it made sense to just stick with Pally to 12. The Improved Smite adds pseudo spell slots that I would have burned in Smite. Originally, I did have fighter in here for the second style. Bearbarian is also a strong contender, but I don't think it's worth giving up spell casting (Shield), and heavy armor for the temporary resist.

I like the build, it will definitely get the job done. As a S&B you will appreciate the extra radiant damage at 11th level paladin, so get their quickly. I'm not sold on tough.

[spartan_ah]

why not 2 handed fighting? will save you a feat. and why draconic and not storm socerer? seems better for a paladin, u get no OA when casting a spell (can it be a pally spell? like smite?)
but i like the sorc, you can get gree flame and booming blade.

[bid]

why not 2 handed fighting? will save you a feat.
Which feat?
Cha+2, resilient (Con), sentinel or tough?

He's going with subtle spell instead of warcaster, if that was your thought.

[Trancekat]

Very nice. I never thought of replacing warcaster with subtle spell, and it's even better. Thanks for the correction.

Thank you! I'm glad we have this forum to share ideas and learn from one another. :)

[Trancekat]

I like the build, it will definitely get the job done. As a S&B you will appreciate the extra radiant damage at 11th level paladin, so get their quickly. I'm not sold on tough.

I'll be honest, I'm not either, but I have been told that at those levels, HP actually matter. I have never gotten past 10, and with a caster that one time.

Any opinions as to what may be a better option?

[Trancekat]

why not 2 handed fighting? will save you a feat. and why draconic and not storm socerer? seems better for a paladin, u get no OA when casting a spell (can it be a pally spell? like smite?)
but i like the sorc, you can get gree flame and booming blade.

2 Handed Fighting doesn't add anything to the defenses of the build. I'd rather have the shield for the +2 AC (+4 if you get the +2 Shield in Sword of Selfaril) than the extra bump in damage.

You have a good point with the Storm Sorcerer. I don't think I'll be casting enough level 1 spells to make much use of their level 1 feature, but it's worth a closer look! Great idea on it. I originally went with Dragon origin for the improved hit points.

GFB and BB are definitely in there for when I have the spare SP to quicken them. I'd only ever use them as a bonus cast since swinging 2x is usually going to be better. It's an interesting combo with the storm sorcerer though. I will think about it some more.

Thank you for the idea.

[djreynolds]

I love the build, I think you are onto something. I might grab war caster, early, if only for 2 reasons

1) to get another metamagic feat other than subtle

2) you can use a spell on AoO, not bad

3) Some people take war caster for concentration checks, and resilient con is better for that, but you get the two goodies above, no silliness about what's in your hand and pockets and foot wear, and an AoO with possibly booming blade or any spell that costs an action

Just note Mr Corran sent me home crying as RAW thread killed my hold person on AoOs as the victim of it will get 2 saving throws, immediately and at the end of his turn, which you just ended by casting hold person if you held him.... which heightened would work excellente with a maxed charisma score.

[Corran]

We were talking a bit about tanky paladorcs in that other thread, I copy paste a post which summarizes my thoughts, in case it will be of help.

Ok, lets try and put together a few things regarding this tanky paladorc.


1) good AC + blur + shield

The higher the AC, the better the synergy (less shield spamming, blur typically works better with high AC's). Playing as S&B works better with this combo, and generally works better with paladorcs, though it requires warcaster. But then again you will take warcaster either way, as it is one of the most optimal feats for tanky paladorcs. Suggestion is to play S&B, take defense as your fighting style, for an AC of 21 without any magic items (if you play with magic items, S&B becomes even better as you can additionally increase your AC by having a magical shield). Use this if you have to tank really hard, especially if you are tanking alone. Available as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4 (for warcaster), though you might want to delay it if you want to take the paladin auras first. You can make up for the lack of blur by using shield of faith (bonus action), or bless (a fantastic spell). Use shield of faith if you are taking the vast majority of the hits, use bless otherwise (especially if you have heavy hitters and no other source of bless).


2) warcaster + BB

Essentially the alternative option to sentinel. And for a paladorc it is strictly better. If you were a single class paly, sentinel (combined with polearm master) would be a no brainer. For you though, it is warcaster and BB. Make the enemies pay dearly if they want to escape your reach. The benefits of warcaster are so massively important for this build, that you simply cannot afford not to take it. If you dont, then I suggest not playing a S&B paladorc. Available as soon as paladin4/sorcerer1 (or paladin 4 if you get BB from your race), or as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4. Either way, you have it online by level 5, when BB powers up, so you are set.


3) Quickened spell

Choose this metamagic when you take your 3rd sorcerer level. Use it with: a) self-buffs (eg blur), b) debuffs (eg hold person, preferably using a higher level slot for multiple targets), c) nova (eg GFB).


4) Auras

Aura of protection is an amazing class feature. So is aura of warding. Hence since you are an OoA paladin, you want at least 7 paladin levels for those two amazing auras.



Where do all of the above leave you?

You are a paladin7/sorcerer3. You start as a paladin for the proficiencies and the starting hit points, and the only feat you have so far is warcaster (from paladin 4). If started as variant human, or if you followed a different progression, eg paladin1 -> sorcerer 4 -> paladin7) then you have more feats/ASI's, though in the latter case you are a paladin//sorcerer4 and you delayed your auras effectively by 1 level, for getting features in an order not that beneficial (unless you play in a heavily ranged group where you do all the tanking). But I will talk about leve progression in more detail later.

The point is that you are a paladin7/sorcerer3. How do you advance?
I suggest you take 2 paladin levels, to become paladin9/sorcerer3. That gets your 3rd level paladin spells. This is extremelly important if your party lacks healing. Revivify and aura of vitality is all you need. Revivify takes care of (recently) dead allies at the cost of an action (remember, you can always quicken it), and aura of vitality....


5) Extend spell + aura of vitality

Heal a total of 140 hit points at the cost of a 3rd level spell slot and one sorcery point. You have to pick extend spell as your second metamagic from the sorcerer. Superb out of combat healing. You can use it during combat too if you like, as it takes only a bonus action to heal, though I suggest sticking with another concentration spell during combat and just use your lay on hands if you really need to heal someone. Still, you have a rediculously large pool of healing to keep a whole expedition force going encounter after encounter for days without long rest (dying from exhaustion is more likely than dying from loss of hit points). At this point (paladin9/sorcerer3) you have three 3rd level spell slots and one 4th level spell slot, more than enough as using aura of vitality goes. Expect these spell slots to grow rapidly, as now we will start adding sorcerer levels.


6) Spell slots

Paladorcs typically have more spell slots than paladins. More spell slots mean more smiting (among other and potentially more optimal stuff), and more smiting means more fun! Seriously, expect the increased spell slots to come very handy.


7) Elemental weapon + elemental afinity

You are a paladin9/sorcerer3, who tanks and fights in melee. At paladin level 9, you got access to the spell elemental weapon. Since you are already sorcerer 3, it seems a waste not to take another 3 sorcerer levels (dragon, choose fire or thunder). Sorcerer 6 (dragon) gives you elemental afinity, which you can use in conjuction with elemental weapon, extra attack and quickening the appropriate cantrip (BB if you chose thunder dragon, GFB for fire). This is your damage strategy. And you will deal tons of it. Just proceed from paladin9/sorcerer3 to paladin9/sorcerer6.


8)Improved divine smite

Since you are already paladin 9, you can take 2 more paladin levels for improved divine smite (you grab aura of courage along the way). Maybe you want to go paladin11/sorcerer3 before reaching sorcerer6.


Where does that leave us?
We are a paladin11/sorcerer6.
You can grab another sorcerer level for 4th level sorcerer spells. Greater invisibility works well with any gish build, as in your case it will make you tank better (disadvantage on incoming attacks) and will increase your damage (advantage on your attacks). Consider it a better version of blur in your case.


Generally, paladin7/sorcerer3 will make you a solid tank.
Paladin9/sorcerer3 will add tons of healing (aura of vitality, revivify).
Paladin11 adds to your damage (IDS). Works with OA's as well, good for a tank.
Sorcerer6 (dragon) adds a lot to your damage (elemental afinity + elemental weapon).
Sorcerer 7 gets you some very good spells (greater invisibility is a very good and all-around use of your concentration).
If you want extra tankiness and damage, add 1 level of warlock for armor of agathys. Then cast this spell with your highest spell slot if you expect to fight in melee. Even use blade ward (cantrip) if you expect a lot of incoming hits (that means that you are not concentrating on blur or greater invisibility, and that you will not cast shield with your reaction, you want to be hit) during that round. Quicken can help you with this strategy.

The trick is to see what your party needs and then progress in levels accordingly.


A general level progression I have in mind (change it as appropiate to suit your party's needs), is:
1. Paladin1 ---> AC 20
2. Paladin2 ---> AC 21, use bless or shield of faith for concentration
3. Paladin3
4. Paladin4 ---> warcaster
5. Sorcerer1 ---> use BB or GFB instead of attack action, shield, your OA's just powered up
6. Sorcerer2
7. Sorcerer3 ---> quicken and extend, use blur as concentration (bless can stii be useful though)
8. Paladin5 ---> use attack action unless you can trigger the secondary effect of GFB
9. Paladin6 ---> aura of protection
10. Paladin7 ---> aura of warding
11. Paladin8
12. Paladin9 ---> revivify, aura of vitality, elemental weapon (save it for later, you still prefer blur or bless)
13. Sorcerer4
14. Sorcerer5
15. Sorcerer6 ---> elemental afinity + elemental weapon for when you want to deal a heck load of damage
16. Paladin10
17. Paladin11 ---> improved divine smite
18. Warlock1 ---> armor of agathys (at this point you have 6th level spell slots)
19. Sorcerer7 (greater invisibility among other things)
20. Sorcerer8 (for more sorcery points)

For levels 2-6 use shield of faith or bless as your concentration spell.
For levels 7-14, start using blur as your concentration (bless remains a good alternative). Use your spell slots for which you dont know any spells, for smiting or to upcast hold person (preferably with quicken).
At level 9 you gain aura of vitality, preferably use it between combats with extend metamagic.
At level 15 you can use elemental weapon with your concentrtion, if you want to go all offensive. Blur and bless reamin good alternatives for your concentration use. Remember, it is good to have many different options, different battles require different strategies.
Level 18 gives you armor of agathys (no concentration). Use to make the most difficult melee fights seem like a piece of cake.

Edit: I keep forgeting wrathful smite, it is an excellent 1st level paladin spell.
Edit2: If by any chance you continue playing past 15th level, you could always skip that warlock level for one extra paladin level for an extra ASI (thus allowing both str and cha to be 20), or an extra sorcerer level (for one more sorcery point and 5th level sorcerer spells once you hit level 20 - some good options in there).

Edit 3: I am still puzzled about which feat you should take if you start with variant human (be careful of the lack of darkvision). Lucky seems like the best choice. Mounted combat might be a good investment for when you get access to higher level slots (spell level start increasing dramatically fast at the second half of your career), if your DM will let you summon better mounts if you cast find steed with a higher level spell slot. And if you like mounted combat ofc.







Just note Mr Corran sent me home crying as RAW thread killed my hold person on AoOs as the victim of it will get 2 saving throws, immediately and at the end of his turn, which you just ended by casting hold person if you held him.... which heightened would work excellente with a maxed charisma score.
I cried too, I liked your idea:smallfrown:
Though to be fair, warcaster + hold person is the only way I can think of that lets you end your opponent's turn with a reaction (if he fails the first save), so that is not bad at all.

[joaber]

We were talking a bit about tanky paladorcs in that other thread, I copy paste a post which summarizes my thoughts, in case it will be of help.

Ok, lets try and put together a few things regarding this tanky paladorc.


1) good AC + blur + shield

The higher the AC, the better the synergy (less shield spamming, blur typically works better with high AC's). Playing as S&B works better with this combo, and generally works better with paladorcs, though it requires warcaster. But then again you will take warcaster either way, as it is one of the most optimal feats for tanky paladorcs. Suggestion is to play S&B, take defense as your fighting style, for an AC of 21 without any magic items (if you play with magic items, S&B becomes even better as you can additionally increase your AC by having a magical shield). Use this if you have to tank really hard, especially if you are tanking alone. Available as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4 (for warcaster), though you might want to delay it if you want to take the paladin auras first. You can make up for the lack of blur by using shield of faith (bonus action), or bless (a fantastic spell). Use shield of faith if you are taking the vast majority of the hits, use bless otherwise (especially if you have heavy hitters and no other source of bless).


2) warcaster + BB

Essentially the alternative option to sentinel. And for a paladorc it is strictly better. If you were a single class paly, sentinel (combined with polearm master) would be a no brainer. For you though, it is warcaster and BB. Make the enemies pay dearly if they want to escape your reach. The benefits of warcaster are so massively important for this build, that you simply cannot afford not to take it. If you dont, then I suggest not playing a S&B paladorc. Available as soon as paladin4/sorcerer1 (or paladin 4 if you get BB from your race), or as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4. Either way, you have it online by level 5, when BB powers up, so you are set.


3) Quickened spell

Choose this metamagic when you take your 3rd sorcerer level. Use it with: a) self-buffs (eg blur), b) debuffs (eg hold person, preferably using a higher level slot for multiple targets), c) nova (eg GFB).


4) Auras

Aura of protection is an amazing class feature. So is aura of warding. Hence since you are an OoA paladin, you want at least 7 paladin levels for those two amazing auras.



Where do all of the above leave you?

You are a paladin7/sorcerer3. You start as a paladin for the proficiencies and the starting hit points, and the only feat you have so far is warcaster (from paladin 4). If started as variant human, or if you followed a different progression, eg paladin1 -> sorcerer 4 -> paladin7) then you have more feats/ASI's, though in the latter case you are a paladin//sorcerer4 and you delayed your auras effectively by 1 level, for getting features in an order not that beneficial (unless you play in a heavily ranged group where you do all the tanking). But I will talk about leve progression in more detail later.

The point is that you are a paladin7/sorcerer3. How do you advance?
I suggest you take 2 paladin levels, to become paladin9/sorcerer3. That gets your 3rd level paladin spells. This is extremelly important if your party lacks healing. Revivify and aura of vitality is all you need. Revivify takes care of (recently) dead allies at the cost of an action (remember, you can always quicken it), and aura of vitality....


5) Extend spell + aura of vitality

Heal a total of 140 hit points at the cost of a 3rd level spell slot and one sorcery point. You have to pick extend spell as your second metamagic from the sorcerer. Superb out of combat healing. You can use it during combat too if you like, as it takes only a bonus action to heal, though I suggest sticking with another concentration spell during combat and just use your lay on hands if you really need to heal someone. Still, you have a rediculously large pool of healing to keep a whole expedition force going encounter after encounter for days without long rest (dying from exhaustion is more likely than dying from loss of hit points). At this point (paladin9/sorcerer3) you have three 3rd level spell slots and one 4th level spell slot, more than enough as using aura of vitality goes. Expect these spell slots to grow rapidly, as now we will start adding sorcerer levels.


6) Spell slots

Paladorcs typically have more spell slots than paladins. More spell slots mean more smiting (among other and potentially more optimal stuff), and more smiting means more fun! Seriously, expect the increased spell slots to come very handy.


7) Elemental weapon + elemental afinity

You are a paladin9/sorcerer3, who tanks and fights in melee. At paladin level 9, you got access to the spell elemental weapon. Since you are already sorcerer 3, it seems a waste not to take another 3 sorcerer levels (dragon, choose fire or thunder). Sorcerer 6 (dragon) gives you elemental afinity, which you can use in conjuction with elemental weapon, extra attack and quickening the appropriate cantrip (BB if you chose thunder dragon, GFB for fire). This is your damage strategy. And you will deal tons of it. Just proceed from paladin9/sorcerer3 to paladin9/sorcerer6.


8)Improved divine smite

Since you are already paladin 9, you can take 2 more paladin levels for improved divine smite (you grab aura of courage along the way). Maybe you want to go paladin11/sorcerer3 before reaching sorcerer6.


Where does that leave us?
We are a paladin11/sorcerer6.
You can grab another sorcerer level for 4th level sorcerer spells. Greater invisibility works well with any gish build, as in your case it will make you tank better (disadvantage on incoming attacks) and will increase your damage (advantage on your attacks). Consider it a better version of blur in your case.


Generally, paladin7/sorcerer3 will make you a solid tank.
Paladin9/sorcerer3 will add tons of healing (aura of vitality, revivify).
Paladin11 adds to your damage (IDS). Works with OA's as well, good for a tank.
Sorcerer6 (dragon) adds a lot to your damage (elemental afinity + elemental weapon).
Sorcerer 7 gets you some very good spells (greater invisibility is a very good and all-around use of your concentration).
If you want extra tankiness and damage, add 1 level of warlock for armor of agathys. Then cast this spell with your highest spell slot if you expect to fight in melee. Even use blade ward (cantrip) if you expect a lot of incoming hits (that means that you are not concentrating on blur or greater invisibility, and that you will not cast shield with your reaction, you want to be hit) during that round. Quicken can help you with this strategy.

The trick is to see what your party needs and then progress in levels accordingly.


A general level progression I have in mind (change it as appropiate to suit your party's needs), is:
1. Paladin1 ---> AC 20
2. Paladin2 ---> AC 21, use bless or shield of faith for concentration
3. Paladin3
4. Paladin4 ---> warcaster
5. Sorcerer1 ---> use BB or GFB instead of attack action, shield, your OA's just powered up
6. Sorcerer2
7. Sorcerer3 ---> quicken and extend, use blur as concentration (bless can stii be useful though)
8. Paladin5 ---> use attack action unless you can trigger the secondary effect of GFB
9. Paladin6 ---> aura of protection
10. Paladin7 ---> aura of warding
11. Paladin8
12. Paladin9 ---> revivify, aura of vitality, elemental weapon (save it for later, you still prefer blur or bless)
13. Sorcerer4
14. Sorcerer5
15. Sorcerer6 ---> elemental afinity + elemental weapon for when you want to deal a heck load of damage
16. Paladin10
17. Paladin11 ---> improved divine smite
18. Warlock1 ---> armor of agathys (at this point you have 6th level spell slots)
19. Sorcerer7 (greater invisibility among other things)
20. Sorcerer8 (for more sorcery points)

For levels 2-6 use shield of faith or bless as your concentration spell.
For levels 7-14, start using blur as your concentration (bless remains a good alternative). Use your spell slots for which you dont know any spells, for smiting or to upcast hold person (preferably with quicken).
At level 9 you gain aura of vitality, preferably use it between combats with extend metamagic.
At level 15 you can use elemental weapon with your concentrtion, if you want to go all offensive. Blur and bless reamin good alternatives for your concentration use. Remember, it is good to have many different options, different battles require different strategies.
Level 18 gives you armor of agathys (no concentration). Use to make the most difficult melee fights seem like a piece of cake.

Edit: I keep forgeting wrathful smite, it is an excellent 1st level paladin spell.
Edit2: If by any chance you continue playing past 15th level, you could always skip that warlock level for one extra paladin level for an extra ASI (thus allowing both str and cha to be 20), or an extra sorcerer level (for one more sorcery point and 5th level sorcerer spells once you hit level 20 - some good options in there).

Edit 3: I am still puzzled about which feat you should take if you start with variant human (be careful of the lack of darkvision). Lucky seems like the best choice. Mounted combat might be a good investment for when you get access to higher level slots (spell level start increasing dramatically fast at the second half of your career), if your DM will let you summon better mounts if you cast find steed with a higher level spell slot. And if you like mounted combat ofc.







I cried too, I liked your idea:smallfrown:
Though to be fair, warcaster + hold person is the only way I can think of that lets you end your opponent's turn with a reaction (if he fails the first save), so that is not bad at all.

about the spoiler, disagree of the item 7. Elemental afinitty add damage only 1 time per spell, will be only one attack with damage bonus. The HP is good, but you don't need the AC without the armor. So, draconic bloodline doesn't add that much.

[Corran]

about the spoiler, disagree of the item 7. Elemental afinitty add damage only 1 time per spell, will be only one attack with damage bonus. The HP is good, but you don't need the AC without the armor. So, draconic bloodline doesn't add that much.
I was of the same opinion, then I asked this in the RAW thread and got the reply that it can add damage more than once per round. So with extra attack and quickened GFB, you can add up to 3 times this extra damage. Fire dragon helps with hp (+1 per sorcerer level), grants fire resistance at the cost of sp (good feature for a tank), and adds some damage with GFB and if you use elemental weapon (though that loses steam if it is as you said, though I am not sure if you are correct). The extra AC is redundant, I agree. Does some other origin offer sth better? (I am geniunly curious as I didnt really look into it, I just said dragon mainly for the elemental weapon combo). Oh, and it works only with fire, there is no draconic bloodline associated with thunder damage (BB) (I am correcting myself here).

[joaber]

I was of the same opinion, then I asked this in the RAW thread and got the reply that it can add damage more than once per round. So with extra attack and quickened GFB, you can add up to 3 times this extra damage. Fire dragon helps with hp (+1 per sorcerer level), grants fire resistance at the cost of sp (good feature for a tank), and adds some damage with GFB and if you use elemental weapon (though that loses steam if it is as you said, though I am not sure if you are correct). The extra AC is redundant, I agree. Does some other origin offer sth better? (I am geniunly curious as I didnt really look into it, I just said dragon mainly for the elemental weapon combo). Oh, and it works only with fire, there is no draconic bloodline associated with thunder damage (BB) (I am correcting myself here).

Elemental Affinity errata say "The damage bonus applies to one damage roll of a spell, not multiple rolls". You used a spell to cast elemental weapon, only one attack will add the damage. Not 1 attack per round, just 1 attack. Still add if you use booming blade or GFB, since is another spell.

I prefer much more wild sorcerer (personal opinion) first because I love the randoness of wild magic, and at that level, you can survive a fireball, mainly if you get aura of warding. Second because with protection aura, you'll be almost a god in saves or can use tide of chaos to get advantage in iniciative. I don't think storm sorcery will be good to that building.

If you allow UA content, you can be flavored soul, not so useful since you already have armor and weapon profs and extra attack, only will get more spells. Or shadow sorcerer, with is to OP to be allowed in most tables. That last one with Sentinel would be perfect, stay stick with enemy, cast darkness, he is blind you not, if he try to go alway make AoO and he'll keep in your reach. And don't drop to 0 and at lvl 6 have a hound to find any hidden enemy and use help action. Only one SP for darkness, you can cast almost at will.

[bid]

Elemental Affinity errata say "The damage bonus applies to one damage roll of a spell, not multiple rolls".
I was wondering how to interpret this, but twinned says "target with the same spell" and not with a copy of the spell.

[joaber]

I was wondering how to interpret this, but twinned says "target with the same spell" and not with a copy of the spell.

I think the inprerpretation that matter will be of the DM. But if every hit with elemental weapon get the bonus, my ultimate nova PC would do even more damage, lol.

[Trancekat]

I love the build, I think you are onto something. I might grab war caster, early, if only for 2 reasons

1) to get another metamagic feat other than subtle

2) you can use a spell on AoO, not bad

3) Some people take war caster for concentration checks, and resilient con is better for that, but you get the two goodies above, no silliness about what's in your hand and pockets and foot wear, and an AoO with possibly booming blade or any spell that costs an action

Just note Mr Corran sent me home crying as RAW thread killed my hold person on AoOs as the victim of it will get 2 saving throws, immediately and at the end of his turn, which you just ended by casting hold person if you held him.... which heightened would work excellente with a maxed charisma score.

On item 2 - using Booming Blade can be a soft version of sentinel (and I like that a lot).

As for Hold Person - Yes, Heightened is beautiful for that, but it'll only apply on the initial save. At the end of their turn, it would be a regular save.


We were talking a bit about tanky paladorcs in that other thread, I copy paste a post which summarizes my thoughts, in case it will be of help.



Ok, lets try and put together a few things regarding this tanky paladorc.


1) good AC + blur + shield

The higher the AC, the better the synergy (less shield spamming, blur typically works better with high AC's). Playing as S&B works better with this combo, and generally works better with paladorcs, though it requires warcaster. But then again you will take warcaster either way, as it is one of the most optimal feats for tanky paladorcs. Suggestion is to play S&B, take defense as your fighting style, for an AC of 21 without any magic items (if you play with magic items, S&B becomes even better as you can additionally increase your AC by having a magical shield). Use this if you have to tank really hard, especially if you are tanking alone. Available as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4 (for warcaster), though you might want to delay it if you want to take the paladin auras first. You can make up for the lack of blur by using shield of faith (bonus action), or bless (a fantastic spell). Use shield of faith if you are taking the vast majority of the hits, use bless otherwise (especially if you have heavy hitters and no other source of bless).


2) warcaster + BB

Essentially the alternative option to sentinel. And for a paladorc it is strictly better. If you were a single class paly, sentinel (combined with polearm master) would be a no brainer. For you though, it is warcaster and BB. Make the enemies pay dearly if they want to escape your reach. The benefits of warcaster are so massively important for this build, that you simply cannot afford not to take it. If you dont, then I suggest not playing a S&B paladorc. Available as soon as paladin4/sorcerer1 (or paladin 4 if you get BB from your race), or as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4. Either way, you have it online by level 5, when BB powers up, so you are set.


3) Quickened spell

Choose this metamagic when you take your 3rd sorcerer level. Use it with: a) self-buffs (eg blur), b) debuffs (eg hold person, preferably using a higher level slot for multiple targets), c) nova (eg GFB).


4) Auras

Aura of protection is an amazing class feature. So is aura of warding. Hence since you are an OoA paladin, you want at least 7 paladin levels for those two amazing auras.



Where do all of the above leave you?

You are a paladin7/sorcerer3. You start as a paladin for the proficiencies and the starting hit points, and the only feat you have so far is warcaster (from paladin 4). If started as variant human, or if you followed a different progression, eg paladin1 -> sorcerer 4 -> paladin7) then you have more feats/ASI's, though in the latter case you are a paladin//sorcerer4 and you delayed your auras effectively by 1 level, for getting features in an order not that beneficial (unless you play in a heavily ranged group where you do all the tanking). But I will talk about leve progression in more detail later.

The point is that you are a paladin7/sorcerer3. How do you advance?
I suggest you take 2 paladin levels, to become paladin9/sorcerer3. That gets your 3rd level paladin spells. This is extremelly important if your party lacks healing. Revivify and aura of vitality is all you need. Revivify takes care of (recently) dead allies at the cost of an action (remember, you can always quicken it), and aura of vitality....


5) Extend spell + aura of vitality

Heal a total of 140 hit points at the cost of a 3rd level spell slot and one sorcery point. You have to pick extend spell as your second metamagic from the sorcerer. Superb out of combat healing. You can use it during combat too if you like, as it takes only a bonus action to heal, though I suggest sticking with another concentration spell during combat and just use your lay on hands if you really need to heal someone. Still, you have a rediculously large pool of healing to keep a whole expedition force going encounter after encounter for days without long rest (dying from exhaustion is more likely than dying from loss of hit points). At this point (paladin9/sorcerer3) you have three 3rd level spell slots and one 4th level spell slot, more than enough as using aura of vitality goes. Expect these spell slots to grow rapidly, as now we will start adding sorcerer levels.


6) Spell slots

Paladorcs typically have more spell slots than paladins. More spell slots mean more smiting (among other and potentially more optimal stuff), and more smiting means more fun! Seriously, expect the increased spell slots to come very handy.


7) Elemental weapon + elemental afinity

You are a paladin9/sorcerer3, who tanks and fights in melee. At paladin level 9, you got access to the spell elemental weapon. Since you are already sorcerer 3, it seems a waste not to take another 3 sorcerer levels (dragon, choose fire or thunder). Sorcerer 6 (dragon) gives you elemental afinity, which you can use in conjuction with elemental weapon, extra attack and quickening the appropriate cantrip (BB if you chose thunder dragon, GFB for fire). This is your damage strategy. And you will deal tons of it. Just proceed from paladin9/sorcerer3 to paladin9/sorcerer6.


8)Improved divine smite

Since you are already paladin 9, you can take 2 more paladin levels for improved divine smite (you grab aura of courage along the way). Maybe you want to go paladin11/sorcerer3 before reaching sorcerer6.


Where does that leave us?
We are a paladin11/sorcerer6.
You can grab another sorcerer level for 4th level sorcerer spells. Greater invisibility works well with any gish build, as in your case it will make you tank better (disadvantage on incoming attacks) and will increase your damage (advantage on your attacks). Consider it a better version of blur in your case.


Generally, paladin7/sorcerer3 will make you a solid tank.
Paladin9/sorcerer3 will add tons of healing (aura of vitality, revivify).
Paladin11 adds to your damage (IDS). Works with OA's as well, good for a tank.
Sorcerer6 (dragon) adds a lot to your damage (elemental afinity + elemental weapon).
Sorcerer 7 gets you some very good spells (greater invisibility is a very good and all-around use of your concentration).
If you want extra tankiness and damage, add 1 level of warlock for armor of agathys. Then cast this spell with your highest spell slot if you expect to fight in melee. Even use blade ward (cantrip) if you expect a lot of incoming hits (that means that you are not concentrating on blur or greater invisibility, and that you will not cast shield with your reaction, you want to be hit) during that round. Quicken can help you with this strategy.

The trick is to see what your party needs and then progress in levels accordingly.


A general level progression I have in mind (change it as appropiate to suit your party's needs), is:
1. Paladin1 ---> AC 20
2. Paladin2 ---> AC 21, use bless or shield of faith for concentration
3. Paladin3
4. Paladin4 ---> warcaster
5. Sorcerer1 ---> use BB or GFB instead of attack action, shield, your OA's just powered up
6. Sorcerer2
7. Sorcerer3 ---> quicken and extend, use blur as concentration (bless can stii be useful though)
8. Paladin5 ---> use attack action unless you can trigger the secondary effect of GFB
9. Paladin6 ---> aura of protection
10. Paladin7 ---> aura of warding
11. Paladin8
12. Paladin9 ---> revivify, aura of vitality, elemental weapon (save it for later, you still prefer blur or bless)
13. Sorcerer4
14. Sorcerer5
15. Sorcerer6 ---> elemental afinity + elemental weapon for when you want to deal a heck load of damage
16. Paladin10
17. Paladin11 ---> improved divine smite
18. Warlock1 ---> armor of agathys (at this point you have 6th level spell slots)
19. Sorcerer7 (greater invisibility among other things)
20. Sorcerer8 (for more sorcery points)

For levels 2-6 use shield of faith or bless as your concentration spell.
For levels 7-14, start using blur as your concentration (bless remains a good alternative). Use your spell slots for which you dont know any spells, for smiting or to upcast hold person (preferably with quicken).
At level 9 you gain aura of vitality, preferably use it between combats with extend metamagic.
At level 15 you can use elemental weapon with your concentrtion, if you want to go all offensive. Blur and bless reamin good alternatives for your concentration use. Remember, it is good to have many different options, different battles require different strategies.
Level 18 gives you armor of agathys (no concentration). Use to make the most difficult melee fights seem like a piece of cake.

Edit: I keep forgeting wrathful smite, it is an excellent 1st level paladin spell.
Edit2: If by any chance you continue playing past 15th level, you could always skip that warlock level for one extra paladin level for an extra ASI (thus allowing both str and cha to be 20), or an extra sorcerer level (for one more sorcery point and 5th level sorcerer spells once you hit level 20 - some good options in there).

Edit 3: I am still puzzled about which feat you should take if you start with variant human (be careful of the lack of darkvision). Lucky seems like the best choice. Mounted combat might be a good investment for when you get access to higher level slots (spell level start increasing dramatically fast at the second half of your career), if your DM will let you summon better mounts if you cast find steed with a higher level spell slot. And if you like mounted combat ofc.







I cried too, I liked your idea:smallfrown:
Though to be fair, warcaster + hold person is the only way I can think of that lets you end your opponent's turn with a reaction (if he fails the first save), so that is not bad at all.

Thank you! That's very helpful; glad you shared this.

Item 1 - I'd definitely get at LEAST a second attack before thinking of multiclassing. The Aura at 6 is just too good to pass up.

Item 2 - I don't think it's strictly better than Sentinel - One offers hard control, while the other is soft. An enemy can choose to take the BB damage and continue moving, getting to the squishy and pummeling them. With Sentinel, they just stop, no save, no resistance, no immunity, etc.

Item 3 - No brainer.

Item 4 - I haven't done much research on which Oath level 7 aura is better. Was there a discussion on this already? I went with protection from Charm over damage, but am open to changing if there's a convincing argument for less damage vs loosing an ally and gaining an enemy.

To end your opponent's turn with WarCaster, just use Command. :)

Great thread and very similar to what we've bee looking at here. Thanks again!

[Trancekat]

So I recently discovered a 1st level spell called Absorb Elements. Holy cow, this looks amazing on paper - Never played with it yet though.

Any experience with this little gem?

It's only available to Druid/Ranger/Wizard. Is it worth dipping a level in Druid to grab this? It would bump out our last ASI. We'd also have to change our stats around - which may not be ideal for a Duergar. I haven't given this too much consideration yet though. Thinking it would be a level right after Sorcerer4.

Thoughts?

Thank you!

[CaptAl]

So I recently discovered a 1st level spell called Absorb Elements. Holy cow, this looks amazing on paper - Never played with it yet though.

Any experience with this little gem?

It's only available to Druid/Ranger/Wizard. Is it worth dipping a level in Druid to grab this? It would bump out our last ASI. We'd also have to change our stats around - which may not be ideal for a Duergar. I haven't given this too much consideration yet though. Thinking it would be a level right after Sorcerer4.

Thoughts?

Thank you!

It's a great spell. But it's from the elemental evil players companion. It doesn't play well with SCAG races/cantrips according to AL rules.

[Trancekat]

It's a great spell. But it's from the elemental evil players companion. It doesn't play well with SCAG races/cantrips according to AL rules.

I see the requirement to choose one over the other. Is it possible to learn the spell in game if going the Wizard route? I've had a few adventures where wizzys and tomelocks got together to copy spells.

[CaptAl]

I see the requirement to choose one over the other. Is it possible to learn the spell in game if going the Wizard route? I've had a few adventures where wizzys and tomelocks got together to copy spells.

Yes, that is a possibility. Just can't start out with the mix.

[krunchyfrogg]

I love paladorcs!

[Citan]

Very nice. I never thought of replacing warcaster with subtle spell, and it's even better. Thanks for the correction.
I had made this choice on such a multiclass some time ago.
I wouldn't say it's "even better". After all, Warcaster brings other things, and is no-cost.

As far as removing components from spellcasting go though, with a bit of thinking it can be quite enough, even though it costs SP. Why?
- In many fights, you will start by buffing yourself then attack. For a Sorcadin, or Palasorc, either you can cope with "wasting" your first turn doing that then drawing your weapon, or use bonus action cast (because it's the native way for that spell, or use Quicken) before using your action to Attack (or weapon cantrip), using the "free draw/sheathe as part of the attack".
- More generally, there won't be that many occasions where the free interaction is not enough to do exactly what you want, making the use of Subtle spell more scarce than one could fear. Especially once you start using offensive spells that rely on repeating action/bonus action for their effects (you are not "casting a spell" when doing so, so you don't need your hand free).

Conclusion, for those who would be wondering, as long as you think when fighting (which seems to me a sound prerequisite for any character, even more so for Paladin) and were interested in Warcaster just for this particular benefit, Subtle is a very potent replacement. ;)

[Cl0001]

Honestly totem warrior barbarian is basically what you're looking for. At 20th level you can have an unarmored ac of 22 and resist basically all damage. Coupled with having the highest health pool in the game idk what else you want to be a better tank. The best tank I ever made was one. He stats were
24
20
24
8
10
8
And he had tough, sentinel and shield master as feats. For equipment he had a +3 shield that could cast shield of faith once a day, jade ring of protection, boots of speed, ring of defense and a luck stone. He was basically unkillable with about 400 health.

[CaptAl]

Honestly totem warrior barbarian is basically what you're looking for. At 20th level you can have an unarmored ac of 22 and resist basically all damage. Coupled with having the highest health pool in the game idk what else you want to be a better tank. The best tank I ever made was one. He stats were
24
20
24
8
10
8
And he had tough, sentinel and shield master as feats. For equipment he had a +3 shield that could cast shield of faith once a day, jade ring of protection, boots of speed, ring of defense and a luck stone. He was basically unkillable with about 400 health.

With 3 20+ stats, 3 feats, and that equipment load out your class doesn't matter. A straight Sorcerer could tank that way.

[Specter]

Tanking is about a) resisting physical damage, b) resisting area damage, and c) resisting mind effects. Absorb Elements is great because it guarantees b) and even gives you some bonus damage on the next attack.

[RulesJD]

Hi All,
I've been hankering to build an "ultimate" tank in 5E (AL rules) and this is what I've come up with. My goal was to get the most resists and highest AC I could. Please let me know if I've missed something or you know of something better. I'm asking for help from those who know more than me.

*snip*

Gonna save you a lot of time here.

1. Any ultimate tank build will be Human Variant due to getting the free Feat.

2. You have to have 13 Int to MC into Wizard, which as a Paladin you simply aren't going to have.

Ancient Paladin 7/Bear Barbarin 3/Draconic Sorc+

Tada, you have the ultimate tank. Rage when facing heavy melee/elemental damage, Ancient Paladin for always on spell resist, Draconic Sorc for eventual 1 elemental resist + defensive spells (Blur, Haste, Greater Invis, Counterspell, etc).

For feats obviously start with Resiliency (Con). Then just boost Cha (more saves = more better) + Toughness/whatever.