Class help limited selection

[NoxRaven]

Alright...first and foremost I want to go ahead and thank anyone/everyone that tries to help with this. I've confused myself extensively trying to figure this out.

I'm trying to figure out the best class/prestige class progression for a character. I really don't want to go the classic gish of a sorcadin. I'm not really good at sticking to a lawful good way of thinking.

I'm not looking for a glass cannon. I'd prefer the best mix of melee and casting possible. We already have a thief variant with a lot of fighter feats and a cleric. So I know I'll need to be something of a tank so Abjurant Champion I know will be one of the prestige classes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The books we are allowed for classes for the campaign are:
PHB
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
Unearthed Arcana
DMG

[dascarletm]

Something simple, is the battle sorcerer variant from unearthed arcana. Pair with abj champion, and you'd do passably. I'm sure it isn't the "best" however.

If you had the PHBII I'd suggest duskblade, perhaps you can convince your DM.

[NoxRaven]

Unfortunately the DM has already stated these are the only books and no others will be added

[John Longarrow]

No ToB, so....
L1 Fighter (1)
L2 Wizard (1)
L3 Wizard (2)
L4 Wizard (3)
L5 Wizard (4)
L6 Fighter (2)
L7 SpellSword (1) Complete Warrior
L8 Abjurant Champion (1)
L9 Abjurant Champion (2)
L10 Abjurant Champion (3)
L11 Abjurant Champion (4)
L12 Abjurant Champion (5)
L13-L20, Eldritch Knight DMG

You will wind up with CL and BAB of 17 at 20th.
This build does have minor skill/feat requirements, so it is wide open for customization.

[dascarletm]

I'd go with Mr. Longarrow's build or Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion5/Battle Sorcerer 8

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd go with Mr. Longarrow's build or Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion5/Battle Sorcerer 8
While I think less goddawful than most people, I'd advice against Battle Sorcerer in a game where PrCs like Abjurant Champion are on the table-- as soon as you PrC out, you're effectively overriding the benefit (light armor and medium BAB) and keeping the penalty (reduced spells).

[John Longarrow]

While I think less goddawful than most people, I'd advice against Battle Sorcerer in a game where PrCs like Abjurant Champion are on the table-- as soon as you PrC out, you're effectively overriding the benefit (light armor and medium BAB) and keeping the penalty (reduced spells).

That is one reason to grab a level dip in SpellSword. First level is full BAB, full casting, ignore 10% ASF. By the time your getting into it, you should be going with a mithral chain shirt anyhow, so you won't have problems casting in it.

[dascarletm]

The only advantage that battle sorcerer has is it can do it's thing at the early levels. If that's not where the majority of your game will take place, then yes. I wouldn't take it.

[Segev]

I know it's not allowed, but I have to lament that Magus - from Pathfinder - is not available, as it sounds like EXACTLY what you want in a single-class chassis.

You could honestly go Cleric or Druid and achieve your goal, I think, but the build suggested here is closer in theme to what you want, I think.

[John Longarrow]

I know it's not allowed, but I have to lament that Magus - from Pathfinder - is not available, as it sounds like EXACTLY what you want in a single-class chassis.

You could honestly go Cleric or Druid and achieve your goal, I think, but the build suggested here is closer in theme to what you want, I think.

Same with Duskblade...

[Troacctid]

What level are you starting at? That's very important, because a lot of gish builds come online late, so your starting level has a big impact on whether a build is viable or not.

[NoxRaven]

Starting out at level 1. Brand new game.

I wish I could use the duskblade class. It seems a little easier to meet the prereqs for abjurant champion that way. However I've also heard that duskblade is limited in a lot of ways and it's more favored to go fighter/wizard anyways.

Same with archivist...if I could get that class allowed in I think it would benefit as well. Unfortunately this is all I have to work with.

[dascarletm]

What level does your group's games end usually?

[Troacctid]

Battle Sorcerer and/or Stalwart Sorcerer are pretty much the only options in your allowed sources that have arcane casting and melee combat and can do both at level 1 with reasonable competency. The other option would be to go Bard and take an animal companion (via the Unearthed Arcana variant) to do your meleeing by proxy.

[John Longarrow]

Down side for your group; based on the books available going Gish is pretty limited.

I've tried (once) the battle sorcerer. Only way I made it work was with a runestaff out of magic Item Compendium. The limit on spells knows is crippling for most builds. You very quickly discover that every fight is the same. You cast your buff / offense spell and hit things.

If you had Lords of Madness available, I'd suggest taking a one level dip into Mind Bender. As is its still really useful as you get telepathy out of it. With LoM though, you can get the mindsight feat, a very handy way to avoid most ambushes.

[dascarletm]

Mage of the arcane order will give you access to the spellpool.... However, it isn't super gish friendly

[NoxRaven]

Ok is there anything you all can suggest from the lists available then that's not gish? I'm just trying to think the best use for the character. I know a multiclass is what I'll end up with but if there are better combinations that you can suggest with this other then going gish I'm open to listening.

As far as how high they usually go. I don't know this will be my first game with this group.

[dascarletm]

Ok is there anything you all can suggest from the lists available then that's not gish? I'm just trying to think the best use for the character. I know a multiclass is what I'll end up with but if there are better combinations that you can suggest with this other then going gish I'm open to listening.

As far as how high they usually go. I don't know this will be my first game with this group.

Two Questions
1. Even though this is your first time playing with the group do you have a gauge of what optimization level they play at?
2. What do you want to do/Is there an archetype you want to play as?

[Flickerdart]

What about a divine gish? Ordained Champion on top of Cleric is a pretty nice beater of faces.

[NoxRaven]

1. I have no idea at all.

2. I'm looking at filling the holes we have starting out. We have heals with the cleric and some dps with the thief. So we need a tank and a wizard. I just hate playing paladins so I'd prefer not to go that route. I've always played either a fighter/wizard or fighter/cleric.

The archetype...I'm not sure if this explains it. Basically I look at my character as the vortex of death. The enemies basically look at the part and zero in on my character as threat number 1. If that makes any sort of sense.

If I was going to go divine then I'd go Radiant Servant of Pelor...because that one is just stupid strong from what I've read.

[Flickerdart]

What about a summoner? There's no reason to tank yourself if you can summon guys to tank for you.

[dascarletm]

Why not play a necromancy focused character.

Pick up the alternate class feature in UA for an undead familiar to be your meatless meat shield. - tanking

Get spells that debuff your enemies, and sprinkle in some save or dies.

That character is a whirling* vortex of death

*Actual results of whirlingness may vary. Dascarletm is not responsible for lack of whirling.

[Troacctid]

You could be a Druid. Druids are always a powerful addition to any party, regardless of what everyone else is playing, because they're versatile enough to adjust their strategy to whatever role needs filling. The Wis-to-AC variant is pretty tanky at low levels too.

Master of Many Forms would be a decent stock build with your allowed sources, probably with a Druid entry, although Ranger works too.

Wizard is the best arcane caster overall, but it is a highly squishy class and it's not very strong in the early levels. (To be fair, most arcane casters are like that.) The aforementioned undead servant variant is pretty good at mitigating those weaknesses.

Warmage is pretty viable if you don't mind having very little to do outside of combat. That Warmage Edge packs a nice punch at low levels.

[Segev]

I'm looking at filling the holes we have starting out. We have heals with the cleric and some dps with the thief. So we need a tank and a wizard. I just hate playing paladins so I'd prefer not to go that route. I've always played either a fighter/wizard or fighter/cleric.

The archetype...I'm not sure if this explains it. Basically I look at my character as the vortex of death. The enemies basically look at the part and zero in on my character as threat number 1. If that makes any sort of sense.

Given this, I am going to second Druid. At level 1, you're a decent backup caster and meleeist with the strongest second-level fighter in the party as your minion. As you level up, your spells almost keep up with wizards in power, and your other class features make you pretty potent even without magic. You can gish it up with an ally that keeps up with you without ever PrCing out, if you want.

[NoxRaven]

What about a possible Hexblade/Sorcerer combo? Good charisma stuff on both sides from what I see.

[Troacctid]

Hexblade is underpowered. I'd stay away from it.

[Flickerdart]

What about a possible Hexblade/Sorcerer combo? Good charisma stuff on both sides from what I see.
Hexblade is basically good for only two things:

As a complement to a non-good class that gets CHA to saves, to get more CHA to saves
As a guy that stands next to bad people so the real party members have an easier time of getting their spells to work.


Hexblade's only use is in an Unseelie Fey Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Blackguard 3 multiclass that gets stacks of CHA synergy while dunking saving throws of people that are near him with Winter Chill, Hexblade's Curse, Aura of Despair, and Dark Companion. That's not to say this is a bad build - you can do stuff like take Blackguard to 7 and then finish off your build with Nar Demonbinder and Malconvoker, ending up with 8th level spells from a planar binding and summoning focused list. Essentially you progress through life as an unholy warrior who eventually becomes a lord and commander of demons, rather than doing all his fighting by himself. Your summons and bound minions will thank you - the enemies you stand next to are very susceptible to their many fiendish spell-like abilities! They can even toss area attacks into the middle of the fray, confident that their dark lord can succeed the save against their arts. And you get 16 BAB for all four iterative attacks!

Of course, Nar Demonbinder and Paladin of Tyranny are not in your allowed books, so you can't actually play this. But it's one of the more heavy metal builds in the game.

[Exemplis]

Why not use a cookie cutter gish entry of:
Human Paragon 1 / Fighter 1 / Combat wizard variant (possibly with some specialist ACF) 2 / Human Paragon 2 / Spellsword 1

This way by lv7 you lose 2 BAB 2 CL and can continue ino any PrC you want - Abjurant champion and Eldritch knight are obvoius with your source selection, but if your campaign ends around lv 10 you can go some fullcasting 1/2 BAB class.

[nedz]

I'm slightly confused: you want an arcane spellcaster who is also a tank, but you don't want to play a Gish ?

Your LG concerns over Sorcadin can be fixed with the non LG Paladin variants — found in UA.

Hexadin can work, but it's a little lacklustre even when compared to Fighter.
You really want Hex 3 for Mettle, but you only want to spend two levels on your Full BAB class to avoid dropping caster levels.
Also, it doesn't give Heavy Armour Proficiency so you don't qualify for the Spellsword shortcut.


I wish I could use the duskblade class. It seems a little easier to meet the prereqs for abjurant champion that way. However I've also heard that duskblade is limited in a lot of ways and it's more favored to go fighter/wizard anyways.

Duskblade is a good class, but it doesn't have much synergy with Abjurant Champion because it lack abjurations.

I would have suggested Swiftblade, but that requires a Web only source — which would appear to be banned.

[NoxRaven]

No I'd like to play a gish if I could but those that have been posting to this thread have been suggesting that I'd be highly limited in that type of game play due to the books we have been limited to.

[John Longarrow]

Your character wouldn't be limited, but there are few paths to making a gish that will work well. The build I put up will keep up in Melee with a straight tank build. Its also close to the power of a straight wizard. Down side is its one of the few ways to build a gish that does work with the books you have available. With a small party you will be outshining the cleric early on, except they can cast spells one level higher for most of your career. You can self-buff to out perform most melee builds. Only thing is you get locked into one build fairly early. The only mechanical choice is general 'Do I take Fighter at lvl 6 or do I take two levels of wizard instead and push everything else back a level?" This option gives you a BAB of 16 and CL of 18 at 20th. Also is down about 3 HP compared to the 2nd level in fighter.