Maximize flurry of blows in 7 levels

[amdskitzo]

Hey all,

I have a character concept that somewhat heavily relies on Flurry of blows, but I only have 7 levels free to work with it. I know monk isn't the strongest, but my group tends to play more fluffy rather than powerful builds. The other 13 levels are dedicated to Duskblade for Full Attack Channeling. Through my own research, I haven't been able to find much beyond just taking 7 levels of monk, but I thought I would pick the collective brain of the forums.

Thanks.

[ComaVision]

It only takes one level of monk to get the ability to Flurry. It takes 5 levels to make the penalty -1/-1, so you're better off just going into a full BaB class like Warblade to pick up some maneuvers.

[John Longarrow]

6 levels of Ranger will get you TWF and ITWF. 2 feats on Improved Unarmed Strike + Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB). If your are feat tight, toss in one level of Fighter for the Improved Unarmed Strike. You wind up with full BAB, better unarmed damage (SUS is based off of character level so your Duskblade counts), same HPs and better skills.

Monks HATE full BAB characters that go unarmed because they can get more attacks at a higher to hit. They can also (with the right feats) do the same average damage per hit.

[Troacctid]

Well, if you do take 7 levels of Monk, the Dark Moon Disciple substitution level (found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)) is very strong.

[Grod_The_Giant]

As per the List of Stuff:

Flurry of Blows
Monk
Shou Disciple

stacks for flurry
Shou Disciple, ecl 6, Unapproachable East - fuzzy 3.0/3.5 area, debatable but generally allowed
Disciple of the Eye, ecl 6, Races of the Dragon
Sun Soul Monk, ecl 6, City of Splendors: Waterdeep (FR)
Disciple of the Word, ecl 6, Tome of Magic - errata states it stacks fully
Shadow Sun Ninja, ecl 8, Tome of Battle - only for reducing penalties
Initiate of Pistis Sophia, ecl 7, Book of Exalted Deeds
Haztaratain, ecl 6, Eberron: Secrets of Sarlona

Special Mention:
Dragon 318 (OA Update) makes arguments for monk prestige classes progressing flurry
Tashalatora, feat, Secrets of Sarlona, stacks a psionic class for flurry progression
If OA is available, Shou Disciple is a very good option for picking up Flurry-- it's a full-BAB PrC with only mildly obnoxious prereqs, which gives you flurry with light weapons at level 3, and with any melee weapon at 5th. You also get a nice quick unarmed damage progression (up to 2d6 at level 5) and two bonus feats off a decent little list to make up for the two crappy feats you wasted on entry.

[Deeds]

As ComaVision pointed out you only need to dip 1 level into monk for flurry. The best way to maximize your flurry of blows is to set up opportunities for full round actions or pounce. Refer to this thread for ideas: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement My favorites from the thread are Travel Devotion and Anklets of Translocation.

Pick up the feat Snap Kick from Tome of Battle for an additional attack. Law Devotion feat gives a nice bonus to attack rolls and Knowledge Devotion is even better as it nets attack and damage rolls. Stack on the skill trick Collector of Stories and you'll boost your Knowledge Devotion.

At level 14, this is how I imagine your attack scheme: swift action to use Travel Devotion or Anklet to get in range and full rounding with Flurry + Snap kick for +9/+9/+9/+5/+0 attack rolls respectively before adding strength mod (attack +3~) or Knowledge Devotion (attack & damage +3~.) Hell, on the next round you can quick cast true strike + power attack and simply DPS whatever you're smackin'.

[Darrin]

Duskblade 2/Monk 7/Duskblade +11
1) Duskblade 1. Feat: TWF.
2) Duskblade 2. Bonus: Combat Casting.
3) Duskblade 3. Feat: Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws.
4) Duskblade 4.
5) Duskblade 5.
6) Monk 1. Feat: Open Least Chakra: Hands. Bonus: Power Attack (Overwhelming Attack).
7) Monk 2. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush (Overwhelming Attack). Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil).
8) Monk 3. Standing Jump ACF (Dungeonscape)
9) Monk 4. Feat: Shock Trooper. Wall Walker ACF (Dungeonscape)
10) Monk 5.
11) Monk 6. Bonus: Improved Trip.
12) Monk 7. Feat: Mantis Leap.
13) Duskblade 6.
14) Duskblade 7.
15) Duskblade 8. Feat: Leap Attack.
16) Duskblade 9.
17) Duskblade 10.
18) Duskblade 11. Feat: Snap Kick.
19) Duskblade 12.
20) Duskblade 13.

As a move action make a normal Jump check, and with Mantis Leap it becomes a charge. Sphinx Claws gives you pounce, so you get a full attack at the end of your charge (add Leap Attack and Shock Trooper if you like). Arcane Channeling lets you cast a spell as part of a full attack. So flurry/channel vampiric touch or whatnot.

The best part? All that was just a move action, and you still have a move or standard action left. So do it again.

[John Longarrow]

OP,

Question, are you actually looking at this for melee ability or are you wanting an unarmed combatant?

[animewatcha]

There is also barbarian levels. Unarmed barbarian at dragon magazine 349 pg 92. Get IUS free and TWF when unarmed with one level. 6th level is ITWF. There is also the dashing step where you give up trap sense for no penalty while charging. Not to mention pounce, rage, etc.

[Melcar]

Hey all,

I have a character concept that somewhat heavily relies on Flurry of blows, but I only have 7 levels free to work with it. I know monk isn't the strongest, but my group tends to play more fluffy rather than powerful builds. The other 13 levels are dedicated to Duskblade for Full Attack Channeling. Through my own research, I haven't been able to find much beyond just taking 7 levels of monk, but I thought I would pick the collective brain of the forums.

Thanks.

What about Circle Kick? Or Lightning Fists?

If your into or somehow can get alot of feats... the following might be fun!


You can make a wrestler, who by Scorpion Grasp, Knock Down, Great Throw.

Basically what you do is you get the Sandals of the Tiger's Leap and charge your enemy. By having Scorpions Grasp you can initiate a grapple when hitting the target, even though your making a flying kick. As per the rules of grapple “If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.” If you can deal damage enough with that second time damage, you may initiate a free trip attempt as per the Knockdown feat.

When making a successful trip, when applying Great throw, you may again deal unarmed damage.

So far you have charged (and dealt damage), grappled (and dealt damage), body slammed your opponent (and dealt damage), because you have scorpion grasp, you can now initiate a grapple again, and deal damage again.
You are now lying on the ground.

Rinse and repeat!!!

Something like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzxSLmy_ojU)

[amdskitzo]

OP,

Question, are you actually looking at this for melee ability or are you wanting an unarmed combatant?


I was thinking unarmed combatant. I have an image in my head of a monk-esque character with their limbs wreathed in arcane energies. Mostly, I found the PrC Enlightened Fist, but found it somewhat lackluster, and thought Duskblade could do it better. Full Attack Channel vs. Channel once during a full attack action.

[John Longarrow]

For an unarmed attacker, dipping monk is not nearly as good as taking the Superior Unarmed Strike feat in ToB. Unless you go for max levels in Monk your unarmed damage is limited. Superior Unarmed Strike scales with your character level. Top end damage is a little lower than a monk of the same level, but is much better than a 7th level monks. Using Ranger to get your extra attacks means you can do so while wearing light armor regardless of the dex of the build. Flurry of Blows only works when unarmored.

For a melee build, having the extra AC a chain shirt (magic at higher level) offers really improves your chances. Sticking to full BAB also bring the extra attack on line earlier and more accurately. If you are building a high dex character (dex 19+) I'd go with Fighter instead of Ranger. This lets you take TWF, ITWF, STWF and weapon focus (IUS) as fighter bonus feats. This would give even more attacks at high level. it also means you'd be able to spar with Bruce Lee, but while wearing full plate! :belkar:

[Keld Denar]

You do know that you can only affect a single foe with a spell once regardless of how many times you hit them with a full attack channel, right? You don't get 7-8 vampiric touches against a single foe, just one. You probably won't have the reach to affect more than 2, 3 at max foes in most cases. Sure, the extra attacks do damage, but if you are just doing damage, you are better off with a 2handed weapon, esp a reach one like a glaive.

[ericgrau]

As ComaVision pointed out you only need to dip 1 level into monk for flurry. The best way to maximize your flurry of blows is to set up opportunities for full round actions or pounce. Refer to this thread for ideas: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement My favorites from the thread are Travel Devotion and Anklets of Translocation.
The attack bonus in fact increases at 1 per level giving no advantage or disadvantage compared to a full BAB class. However at level 11 you get another attack without any additional attack penalty, at full BAB rather than BAB-10 like everyone else. Which is the big draw of flurry. Is there any other way to get this, and perhaps before level 11?

[ComaVision]

The attack bonus in fact increases at 1 per level giving no advantage or disadvantage compared to a full BAB class.

No, the Monk is a 3/4 BaB class. Flurry starts at a -2 penalty to attacks, at level 5 it goes down to -1, and at 9 it's 0. This means that the attack "bonus" increases at almost 1 per level but not quite. Full BaB will pull ahead with a greater bonus, and means your non-flurry will have a higher attack bonus as well.

[ericgrau]

No, the Monk is a 3/4 BaB class. Flurry starts at a -2 penalty to attacks, at level 5 it goes down to -1, and at 9 it's 0. This means that the attack "bonus" increases at almost 1 per level but not quite. Full BaB will pull ahead with a greater bonus, and means your non-flurry will have a higher attack bonus as well.
Flurry attack bonus increases at exactly 1 per level. Look at the flurry column in the table. The decrease in penalty precisely cancels out with the medium BABness. So for flurry there's no advantage or disadvantage to continuing monk vs multiclassing to a full BAB class. Until level 11.

[John Longarrow]

Flurry attack bonus increases at exactly 1 per level. Look at the flurry column in the table. The decrease in penalty precisely cancels out with the medium BABness. So for flurry there's no advantage or disadvantage to continuing monk vs multiclassing to a full BAB class. Until level 11.

PF monk or 3.5 monk?

3.5 monk at 1st level is either +0 or -2/-2. Same game effect as TWF until you hit 5th level. A ranger using unarmed strike at 2nd level is either +2 or +0/+0 if using the classes TWF tree. 2nd level monk is +1 or -1/-1 if doing a flurry.

[ComaVision]

Flurry attack bonus increases at exactly 1 per level. Look at the flurry column in the table. The decrease in penalty precisely cancels out with the medium BABness. So for flurry there's no advantage or disadvantage to continuing monk vs multiclassing to a full BAB class. Until level 11.

Ah, yeah, at low levels you are correct. I thought you were talking overall. The advantage is that you'll almost assuredly be picking up better class abilities outside monk. There is no incentive to stay in monk.

[ericgrau]

PF monk or 3.5 monk?

3.5 monk at 1st level is either +0 or -2/-2. Same game effect as TWF until you hit 5th level. A ranger using unarmed strike at 2nd level is either +2 or +0/+0 if using the classes TWF tree. 2nd level monk is +1 or -1/-1 if doing a flurry.
3.5
-2/2, -1/-1, 0/0, +1/+1, etc. until 12th level. Monk 1/full BAB X vs. Monk X+1 is the same either way is what I was saying. Until monk 11 which finally gets an advantage.

Flurry and TWF may be combined. Plus each does some things that the other cannot. Depends on the build.


Ah, yeah, at low levels you are correct. I thought you were talking overall. The advantage is that you'll almost assuredly be picking up better class abilities outside monk. There is no incentive to stay in monk.
Is there a way to get the level 11 flurry ability outside of monk? Another attack is always nice.

(Re: incentives to stay in monk) Cutting out the minor abilities we have:
1-20 Minor improvement to unarmed damage, which also includes grappling damage and damage while doing a stunning fist since both come from unarmed damage. Also good saves.

1: Feat, flurry, improved unarmed strike
2: Feat, evasion
3:
4:
5: +1 touch AC
6: Feat
7:
8:
9: Improved evasion
10: +2 touch AC
11: Greater flurry
12: Finally a +40' speed boost that isn't easy to duplicate with magic items.
13: Diamond Soul (say what you want about the drawbacks, they are easy to overcome and the benefits are nice)
14:
15: Quivering Palm 1/week, +50' speed, +3 touch AC
16:
17:
18: +60' speed
19: Empty Body
20: +4 touch AC

Multiclassing after level 2 is highly tempting. But in a low op game monk 9 starts some ok things.

[Bronk]

I was thinking unarmed combatant. I have an image in my head of a monk-esque character with their limbs wreathed in arcane energies. Mostly, I found the PrC Enlightened Fist, but found it somewhat lackluster, and thought Duskblade could do it better. Full Attack Channel vs. Channel once during a full attack action.

That sounds cool, it's a shame most of the rest of the duskblade's abilities are geared towards wearing armor, which would negate your monk abilities.

To maximize a monk's flurry of blows, have you considered trying to take three bloodline levels? That would increase your total level for character abilities based on class levels by three, which includes flurry, and would take it to the equivalent of a level 10 monk with only your seven levels.

Have you looked into the Chaos Monk, from Dragon 335 (page 89)? They get 'flailing strike', which instead of 1 extra attack, would give you 1d6-1 extra attacks at tenth level...

[Troacctid]

Duskblade is a bit redundant for a character focused on punching, because you can just naturally deliver touch spells via punch.

[John Longarrow]

amdskitzo

What stats / race are you going with? Also what level will you start playing the character at?