Understanding Minovsky Physics: How do GUNDAM pilots communicate?

[Amaril]

I've been reading about Minovsky physics in the GUNDAM setting, because plausible-sounding explanations for why giant fighting robots are practical in sci-fi worlds are always a good thing as far as I'm concerned, and there's one thing I feel like I'm missing. All the explanation I've seen says that I-fields block radio waves and most other methods of communication, but I know for a fact that craft-to-craft communication is possible in the shows. How does it work? Do they use some medium that isn't hindered by the Minovsky Effect, or are Minovsky physics just inconsistent?

[Brother Oni]

While medium to long range comms are disrupted by Minovsky radiation, short range radio and point to point communication via lasers still function. Some mechs models are only capable of communication when within touching distance.

There's also the various psycommu systems that amplify Newtypes' brainwaves (aka psychic communication).

Alternately, the power of plot. :smalltongue:


That said, I remember from MSG: The 08 MS Team an aircraft bombarding an area with Minovsky particles before an operation, so it implies that long range comms aren't blocked all the time.

[Amaril]

Oh, okay. So basically, the only big thing Minovsky particles do is disrupt long-range weapons tracking?

[Brother Oni]

Oh, okay. So basically, the only big thing Minovsky particles do is disrupt long-range weapons tracking?

And communications, radar and other such things. It even has a noticeable effect on IR and visible light bands, so things like laser guidance and IR homing systems have reduced effectiveness as well.

While there are ways around it, they're often not very practical in space - modern wire guided systems cap out at ~4km for example.

[Marqod]

They also allow the creation of fusion reactors compact enough to power a Mobile Suit because you can use a magnetic field to manipulate them. That means you can use a barrier of them to contain the reaction.
Before the development of that type of reactor, only things the size of a capital spaceship could carry fusion engines.

To add to that, the same tech is used to contain an amount of plasma to create things like beam sabers. Contact with solid objects (like a mobile suit) disrupts the field, releasing the plasma within to melt through whatever you just hit.
If you hit a compact Minovsky fusion reactor with a beam saber, you also disrupt the field shielding the reaction within, typically releasing some very hot material contained in there. Hot enough to melt a hole through a space colony.

Compressing Minovsky particles also turns them into the unstable particle fired from beam weapons, if I recall correctly.

[Amaril]

And communications, radar and other such things. It even has a noticeable effect on IR and visible light bands, so things like laser guidance and IR homing systems have reduced effectiveness as well.

While there are ways around it, they're often not very practical in space - modern wire guided systems cap out at ~4km for example.

Hence, the reason Mobile Suits are practical and necessary is because they allow combat at visual tracking ranges, eliminating the need for long-distance weapons and communication, while being more effective at it than fighter craft because they can turn more quickly and without using fuel. Is that right?

How do larger ships fight, then? Do they just close to shorter ranges than in most sci-fi and use manually-targeted weapons, or do they rely entirely on Mobile Suits for offense?

[Fri]

Hence, the reason Mobile Suits are practical and necessary is because they allow combat at visual tracking ranges, eliminating the need for long-distance weapons and communication, while being more effective at it than fighter craft because they can turn more quickly and without using fuel. Is that right?

How do larger ships fight, then? Do they just close to shorter ranges than in most sci-fi and use manually-targeted weapons, or do they rely entirely on Mobile Suits for offense?

I don't actually remember, but strangely, in MS Igloo, which is a short series about a unit of experimental weapon developer in one year war, right before Char showcase the effectiveness of mobile suit vs capital ship, the unit is shown developing some sort of sniper artillery unit thing. Basically yeah, long range manually targetted weapon, where the shooter must calculate the trajectory etc by their own.

[Brother Oni]

Hence, the reason Mobile Suits are practical and necessary is because they allow combat at visual tracking ranges, eliminating the need for long-distance weapons and communication, while being more effective at it than fighter craft because they can turn more quickly and without using fuel. Is that right?

I wouldn't say eliminating, more compensating for the lack of.

I've only watched Gundam Wing, 08 MS team and some random episodes from one of the early Gundam series in Cantonese, so I can't say how MS compare to fighter craft, but they would have a 'fuel supply' in the rate of Minovsky particle generation to provide reaction mass.


How do larger ships fight, then? Do they just close to shorter ranges than in most sci-fi and use manually-targeted weapons, or do they rely entirely on Mobile Suits for offense?

I believe larger ships can afford the space for the EM shielding required to get electronics working, so can use long range beam weapons, although I may be mistaking that for another series.

If you think of the large ships like a modern naval carrier, MS are the aircraft required to screen away the enemy aircraft. As Fri indicates, Char demonstrated the effectiveness of MS against capital ships, although I haven't seen that episode.

[Gnoman]

Hence, the reason Mobile Suits are practical and necessary is because they allow combat at visual tracking ranges, eliminating the need for long-distance weapons and communication, while being more effective at it than fighter craft because they can turn more quickly and without using fuel. Is that right?

It's more the immense durability and firepower of Mobile Suits. The Zaku II used a 120mm machine gun for a primary weapon at the start of the original Mobile Suit Gundam series, which the original RX-78 Gundam was virtually immune to, while the Beam Cannon used by the RX-78 was explicitly as powerful as the main gun on a battleship, and it took that much firepower to take out a Zaku. Anything lighter (such as a fighter) lacked the capability of shrugging off light weapons and also lacked the firepower to knock out an MS or a warship.

[Kato]

Ah, Gundam physics.... :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, some parts are a bit unclear but it seems there is a lot of information about Minovsky particles I was not yet aware off. (Like their relevance for fusion reactors)
But just to reiterate what was already said: Yes, long range communication, radar, scanning, etc is all hindered by them, which is why long range space battles don't work (well) and why you need MS. MS are (for some reason) better to fight than a bunch of small fighters in space (I think because they look cool. Gundam Wing had a nice scene where this was more or less explicitely stated: They use MS because they are intimidating). If Minovsky density is scarce, you can communicate over long distances, if you want to disturb comms and radar even on short scales, you can spread additional particles (if you have the adequate technology). I'm not sure how they've explained them not interfering with tech on board, maybe that's the reason they still use phones from the 1960s, because those are somehow unaffected :smalltongue:

[Comet]

Yeah, ships communicate with laser pulses and mobile suits communicate with contact points. Both of which work just fine even when particles are deployed. They are also unlikely to be intercepted by the enemy, which is always a plus.

Mobile suits, we are told, rule these close-quarters space combats because of their Active-Mass Balance Auto-Control (AMBAC) systems. Basically the suit moves just like a human-scale astronaut or such, which means that it can perform small shifts of positioning or angle by swinging its limbs instead of deploying thrusters in every possible direction. This is supposedly made super efficient and intuitive for the pilot by this AMBAC interface so that the mobile suit can always angle itself in just the right way to dodge incoming fire and have its weapons ready to fire in whichever direction is needed.

And then the show goes and takes these mobile suits back to earth to fight earth-bound battles for a while and I have no excuses for that.

[Fri]

I wouldn't say eliminating, more compensating for the lack of.

I've only watched Gundam Wing, 08 MS team and some random episodes from one of the early Gundam series in Cantonese, so I can't say how MS compare to fighter craft, but they would have a 'fuel supply' in the rate of Minovsky particle generation to provide reaction mass.



I believe larger ships can afford the space for the EM shielding required to get electronics working, so can use long range beam weapons, although I may be mistaking that for another series.

If you think of the large ships like a modern naval carrier, MS are the aircraft required to screen away the enemy aircraft. As Fri indicates, Char demonstrated the effectiveness of MS against capital ships, although I haven't seen that episode.

It's actually in the background setting of original UC gundam :smallsmile:

The reason Char is famous and I think also the reason he got the nickname Red Comet is on how he destroyed three capital ship by his own/with a small squad. That was relatively very early in the war, and the reason why mobile suit was widely used, because Char showcased its effectiveness. The MS Igloo episode had that event as background story in one episode, the team was testing a long-range cannon supposedly to be used against capital ships, but then that battle happened, and the project was scrapped.

[Waddacku]

As for the original question, Minovsky particle presence doesn't outright block communications. It interferes. The higher the particle density, the larger the disruption, eventually to the point of making it impossible.

Also, for private conversations between pilots, physical contact is frequently established between MS. That way you both avoid interference and don't get other people listening in.

[Amaril]

I'm not sure how they've explained them not interfering with tech on board, maybe that's the reason they still use phones from the 1960s, because those are somehow unaffected :smalltongue:

I think I read something on the wiki about larger craft having enough space to include EM shielding for their on-board electronics, which allows them to ignore the Minovsky effect. Guided missiles have to be too small to carry the shielding, making them useless at long ranges.

The main reason I'm curious about this whole thing is because whenever I see people talking about realistic space combat around here, they always seem to conclude that the only possible way it could be plausible is if it consists entirely of ships firing computer-targeted weapons a single time at extreme ranges and then just waiting around to find out whose shot hit. That strikes me as incredibly boring for stories. It sounds like even if the GUNDAM setting doesn't necessarily justify mecha being more effective than fighters, it does at least get around that particular barrier.

[Brother Oni]

The main reason I'm curious about this whole thing is because whenever I see people talking about realistic space combat around here, they always seem to conclude that the only possible way it could be plausible is if it consists entirely of ships firing computer-targeted weapons a single time at extreme ranges and then just waiting around to find out whose shot hit. That strikes me as incredibly boring for stories. It sounds like even if the GUNDAM setting doesn't necessarily justify mecha being more effective than fighters, it does at least get around that particular barrier.

In space, range is king and when you're fighting at distances which can be measured in light minutes with significant fractional-c weapons, the side that adopts this 'boring' strategy will win.

That said, if you wrote it like a submarine story, you could ratchet up the tensions with the ships firing, then the crews waiting on the edge of their seats to try and predict the enemy's movements and manoeuver your ship out of the way in a high stakes guessing game. Once the shot's been detected, there's a mass scrambling around of the crew to try and avoid the attack or prepare for damage, followed by all the damage control to keep the ship operating afterwards.

See the film Das Boot for a very good example of how to do this well.

[GloatingSwine]

The main reason I'm curious about this whole thing is because whenever I see people talking about realistic space combat around here, they always seem to conclude that the only possible way it could be plausible is if it consists entirely of ships firing computer-targeted weapons a single time at extreme ranges and then just waiting around to find out whose shot hit.

The reason for this is that, well, you can't hide anything in space.

An opponent with an IR telescope can see your drive flare and know, based on the distance to your vessel, everywhere you can possibly be when his missiles arrive.

Then he just has to fire his spread of nukes so that at least one of them is close enough to do some damage to you.

[Dragonus45]

In space, range is king and when you're fighting at distances which can be measured in light minutes with significant fractional-c weapons, the side that adopts this 'boring' strategy will win.

That said, if you wrote it like a submarine story, you could ratchet up the tensions with the ships firing, then the crews waiting on the edge of their seats to try and predict the enemy's movements and manoeuver your ship out of the way in a high stakes guessing game. Once the shot's been detected, there's a mass scrambling around of the crew to try and avoid the attack or prepare for damage, followed by all the damage control to keep the ship operating afterwards.

See the film Das Boot for a very good example of how to do this well.

Also see Honor Harrington for a series that showcases how interesting that kind of space warfare can be.

[Marlowe]

Also see Honor Harrington for a series that showcases how interesting that kind of space warfare can be.

So, not very?

Ships in Gundam can definitely detect each other at range, and engage at range, but it's a bit hit-and-miss. Most defensive technology in Gundam is based around obscuring your location. When ships do exchange fire it can be shockingly lethal very fast, because everything might as well be made of exploding tissue paper as far as the weapons being used are concerned.

The Char's Deleted Affair manga has a relatively rare ship-on-ship action with a Zanzibar-class cruiser with three mobile suits bouncing a Federation Battleship and Cruiser accompanied by eleven suits. Long story short; Zeon opening salvo kills the battleship, followed by a really tense period where the Federation cruiser tries to bring its gun to bear and the Zeon wait for their guns to recharge. Zeon get their second salvo in right on target, exit Fed cruiser. It's implied that if they'd missed with either salvo the Zeon would have been in real trouble.

Anyway, the big question has always been not "how do they communicate?" but rather; "Why does everyone go into battle with their radio set to the same channel?"

[Amaril]

Yeah, I've seen the submarine warfare suggestion before. Maybe it can be interesting (I'm not familiar enough with the inspirations to know), but it's still only one way of doing things--I'd hate to see all sci-fi fall into that one pattern in the name of realism. Plus, whatever excitement the approach allows disappears when you consider that if you were to be really realistic, everything would be handled by AI that can aim and maneuver better than humans, leaving the characters with literally nothing to do in battles but wait.

[Brother Oni]

Plus, whatever excitement the approach allows disappears when you consider that if you were to be really realistic, everything would be handled by AI that can aim and maneuver better than humans, leaving the characters with literally nothing to do in battles but wait.

Hard AI is more a separate development path to space combat, so the simple answer is don't have AI with that level of capability in your setting, be it from a lack of development, refusal of humans to cede that much control, or a prohibition against thinking machines (eg the Dune setting).

If we're going the really realistic route, combat would be done by unmanned drones, semi autonomous or otherwise.