Are Capstone Abilities even a good idea?

[johnbragg]

This is obviously inspired by the Horrible CApstone Abilities thread.

Major arguments are:
1. The capstone ability is not worth much!
2. The capstone ability is awesome, but you only get it at the effective end of the campaign!

This makes me wonder, outside of E6 (where campaigns often continue past capstone level), is a "capstone ability" worth fussing much over?
IF the ablities don't come into gameplay much, either because they're at the end of campaigns (base class) or because it's not that great (10 levels of a prestige class in a 16th level campaign)
Is there much roleplaying meat on the bone of your character having the capstone as an ultimate goal?

I suppose it's a "reward" for not prestige-classing, but does it ever actually work that way?

[Flickerdart]

Consider what the end of a campaign looks like. Your characters are heroes who have gone forth and conquered, lauded by the masses, on the cusp of the final push. The BBEG is on the ropes, pulling out all stops, selling his soul every which way and burning every last favor and resource he has to triumph over these pesky protagonists. He is a greater threat than ever before, and the PCs need that extra final push to put him down once and for all.

In comes the capstone - that final hurrah, the power you're not afraid to put in the hands of the players because the game is almost over and this is their time to shine. An ability that kicks the entire game up a notch to ride an adrenaline-fueled train of blood and gore straight into the gates of Castle Meanscary and out the other side.

[Beheld]

1) Should you make a big deal out of capstones? No, not at all. They are mostly meaningless.
2) Should capstones exist? Yes, but you have to understand what they actually are, they are a thing that kicks in for one level if you even get that high, and then the campaign ends. A "suitable" Wizard 20 capstone is "Wizards can apply any metamagics they want to any spells for free, even ones they didn't take the feats for." Is your level 20 Wizard "Broken"? Yeah sure, but since you've spent the last 3 levels adventuring while Shapechanged and hopefully not casting Gate because that's broke as ****, who cares? It's the sendoff. The campaign probably never got to this level, but if it did, it certainly doesn't go past this level.

So like 99.99999% of all capstones in D&D are just not even worth having, because they don't even appreciably change your character. And the ones that do provide any change at all "You have the Elemental Type!" would have been a really cool character defining ability at level 6, but are basically meaningless at level 15 (oh good, I'm always an elemental, There's a spell that lasts hours that the other Wizard has been using to be an Elemental for two levels already, and it gives him more stuff besides).

[John Longarrow]

Capstones are really good for 5 level PrCs or easy to get into 10 level ones. Abjurant Champion is a great example as it allows your Fighter 5 / wizard 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 to cast as a 10th level caster instead of a 6th. It also allows you to progress the character as a melee build while keeping your spells somewhat relevant. Admittedly the class itself is waaay overpowered, but it does have a great top end ability you actually get to play with. Likewise if you have a capstone that will kick in at 15th level and you'll get to use for more than one adventure before hitting epic.

Unfortunately most of the game designers looked at it as 'Another +2 to Str? Crap, can't let them have that till 20th level!'. They didn't balance the capstone abilities to the character level the characters would be at when they got them. They didn't balance 'True Strike once per day' on a 15th level character VS 'Access to 8th level spells'.

The idea is actually good. Goal for the players to work towards. How its implemented? Often very poorly. One reason I started that thread is to identify what I want to change for my next game.

[Essence_of_War]

Capstones are really good for 5 level PrCs or easy to get into 10 level ones. Abjurant Champion is a great example as it allows your Fighter 5 / wizard 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 to cast as a 10th level caster instead of a 6th. It also allows you to progress the character as a melee build while keeping your spells somewhat relevant. Admittedly the class itself is waaay overpowered, but it does have a great top end ability you actually get to play with. Likewise if you have a capstone that will kick in at 15th level and you'll get to use for more than one adventure before hitting epic.


Fighter 5/Wizard 1/AbjChamp5 is WAAAAYYYYYY less powerful than Wizard 11.

[johnbragg]

In comes the capstone - that final hurrah, the power you're not afraid to put in the hands of the players because the game is almost over and this is their time to shine. An ability that kicks the entire game up a notch to ride an adrenaline-fueled train of blood and gore straight into the gates of Castle Meanscary and out the other side.

That makes sense--matches my "it makes sense in E6" first thought.


1) Should you make a big deal out of capstones? No, not at all. They are mostly meaningless.
2) /QUOTE]

1. I think I agree.
2. Lines up with what Flickerdart said.

[QUOTE=John Longarrow;20302357]Capstones are really good for 5 level PrCs or easy to get into 10 level ones. Abjurant Champion is a great example as it allows your Fighter 5 / wizard 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 to cast as a 10th level caster instead of a 6th. It also allows you to progress the character as a melee build while keeping your spells somewhat relevant. Admittedly the class itself is waaay overpowered, but it does have a great top end ability you actually get to play with. Likewise if you have a capstone that will kick in at 15th level and you'll get to use for more than one adventure before hitting epic.

Unfortunately most of the game designers looked at it as 'Another +2 to Str? Crap, can't let them have that till 20th level!'. They didn't balance the capstone abilities to the character level the characters would be at when they got them. They didn't balance 'True Strike once per day' on a 15th level character VS 'Access to 8th level spells'.

The idea is actually good. Goal for the players to work towards. How its implemented? Often very poorly. One reason I started that thread is to identify what I want to change for my next game.

So notes so far:
Capstones for 5-6 level prestige classes should be something worth having at level 10-15, competitive with 5-7th level spells. That makes sense.
And capstones for 10 level prestige classes should be competitive with 7-9th level spells.

Thanks.

[Florian]

I don´t think that capstones are something that was thought of as being actually used in play.
More kind of something to point at and show what the class/PrC is all about and where playing it can lead towards to.

[OldTrees1]

Thou shalt not make uninteresting levels. This applies to the beginning, middle, and end levels. Privileging the last level by thinking of it as a "Capstone" encourages bad design practices (dead/almost dead levels usually). Just make sure every level has a level's worth of interesting abilities.

[Twurps]

Fighter 5/Wizard 1/AbjChamp5 is WAAAAYYYYYY less powerful than Wizard 11.

it's Also WAAAAAAYYYYY more powerfull than a fighter 11. your point being?

The statement was the class was overpowered, not that particular build.

[Beheld]

It's kind of weird to refer to a class that can never make a PC overpowered as Overpowered.

I mean, yeah, Dragons with 5 levels of Abjurant Champion can break CL shenanigans, sure, but you can already do that with Elementals and Half Fiend Template in Core. DM only gamebreaking things kind of don't matter and aren't overpowered.

[ericgrau]

Consider what the end of a campaign looks like. Your characters are heroes who have gone forth and conquered, lauded by the masses, on the cusp of the final push. The BBEG is on the ropes, pulling out all stops, selling his soul every which way and burning every last favor and resource he has to triumph over these pesky protagonists. He is a greater threat than ever before, and the PCs need that extra final push to put him down once and for all.

In comes the capstone - that final hurrah, the power you're not afraid to put in the hands of the players because the game is almost over and this is their time to shine. An ability that kicks the entire game up a notch to ride an adrenaline-fueled train of blood and gore straight into the gates of Castle Meanscary and out the other side.

So it operates on the assumption that both the game will go to level 20 and will not continue into epic. How many people do this? Most games I've played ended around level 15. Those that didn't went around 10 levels into epic. As far as I know zero of the players had single classed characters; even the casters prestiged out. I'm honestly asking people to say what everyone's gaming groups have done.

[Triskavanski]

Are capstones a good idea?

I'd say yes. Like gratz, you stayed with this class all the way to the end. Here's a cookie.

Ideally a class should at least have one ability at first level, and another at its max level that are both effectivish and iconic to the class, and they should be able to make it express the differences between a trainee or someone who stuck with it.

I mean look at Shadowdancer 3.5 vs Pathfinder. The PF has a capstone that the 3.5 one lacks, giving it a little something more. The Capstone is flavorfully and mechanically apparent. While in Shadows you gain some bonuses. Sure, DR 10/- isn't much, but since you're in dim light you're likely to have some dark vision (Since it is a class feature), so no darkvision baddies also suffer some miss chances against you too. But wait there's more! You also gain a +2 luck bonus on saving throws while in shadows! Luck is a pretty rarish bonus too.. Act now and you can also blind people you crit for 1d6 rounds while in shadows as well.

So yeah, you've got a character who can hide in plain sight while in shadows vs a character who can ruin your day while hiding in plain site of shadows.

[Beheld]

So it operates on the assumption that both the game will go to level 20 and will not continue into epic. How many people do this? Most games I've played ended around level 15. Those that didn't went around 10 levels into epic. As far as I know zero of the players had single classed characters; even the casters prestiged out. I'm honestly asking people to say what everyone's gaming groups have done.

I'm pretty sure his entire point is 100% compatible with the idea that games don't get to level 20 the vast majority of the time.

I've played a lot of games at a lot of levels, but 20 is certainly the least. But since a level 21 Wizard/Cleric/Druid is infinity times better than a level 20 Wizard/Cleric/Druid, it's hard to say that any specific Capstone "relies on the players not playing into Epic." I can't think of a single Capstone that I could even conceive of playing the game with that would be even 1/8 the power of epic level spells.

If you get an ability at level 20 it can be anything, it can be the most overpowered thing you can imagine, and it will still be nothing next to a level 21 character.

So yeah, most characters will never see a capstone at all, which is great reason to write really weird and powerful abilities, and is also a great reason to write all the super minor capstones as character level 7 abilities instead of level 20 abilities.

[Flickerdart]

There's an important difference between different kinds of capstones, though. It's not a difference of quantity, but a qualitative difference.

One kind of capstone is the good kind of capstone - it takes what your character was already doing and makes you better at it. Druids get Huge elemental forms. Barbarian gets Mighty Rage. Monk gets his last damage die increase. All the feats and gear you already have support this new ability without you needing to do anything special. You can use it to its optimal extent without needing to build for it. All the boring capstones (+1 to inspire courage, 5th favored enemy) fall here too, but at least they are usable.

The other kind of capstone is like Perfect Self - it requires you to suddenly change how you play to take advantage of it. Did you buy a permanent enlarge person? Haha, what a dork. Are you an Arcane Archer who finally got to level 10? I hope you were picking up bonuses to SLAs along the way, or that DC won't phase anybody you meet. There are few of these even in Core, because I think WotC realized how stupid these were.

[ericgrau]

I'm pretty sure his entire point is 100% compatible with the idea that games don't get to level 20 the vast majority of the time.

I've played a lot of games at a lot of levels, but 20 is certainly the least. But since a level 21 Wizard/Cleric/Druid is infinity times better than a level 20 Wizard/Cleric/Druid, it's hard to say that any specific Capstone "relies on the players not playing into Epic." I can't think of a single Capstone that I could even conceive of playing the game with that would be even 1/8 the power of epic level spells.

If you get an ability at level 20 it can be anything, it can be the most overpowered thing you can imagine, and it will still be nothing next to a level 21 character.

So yeah, most characters will never see a capstone at all, which is great reason to write really weird and powerful abilities, and is also a great reason to write all the super minor capstones as character level 7 abilities instead of level 20 abilities.

So it may be alright and not overpowered into epic, but how necessary is it in epic? Why not be like any other level? Why does level 20 need to be anything special? How many people stop there or do anything special at that particular level?

[John Longarrow]

Fighter 5/Wizard 1/AbjChamp5 is WAAAAYYYYYY less powerful than Wizard 11.

Wizard 15 isn't as good as wizard 10/AbjChamp 5. The Abjurant Champion as a class is incredibly good, not the specific build I put up. It does, how ever, highlight just how potent the prestige class is. Compare a Fighter 5 / Wizard 1 / AbjChamp 5 to a fighter 11.

[Beheld]

Wizard 15 isn't as good as wizard 10/AbjChamp 5. The Abjurant Champion as a class is incredibly good, not the specific build I put up. It does, how ever, highlight just how potent the prestige class is. Compare a Fighter 5 / Wizard 1 / AbjChamp 5 to a fighter 11.

Compare a Wizard 6/Humanoid HD 5 with the same amount of money as a level character to a Fighter 11. The Fighter probably loses that. Comparing the Fighter to anything is a bad idea. A Wizard 10/Abjurant Champion 5 is nice and all, but it's not any more powerful than a Wizard 10/Anything at all full casting 5. I mean, 5 levels of Master Specialist, 5 levels of Incantatrix, 5 levels of Olin Girsir, 5 levels of Loremaster, 5 levels of Dreamweaver? All of those are pretty much just as good, and all of the can be taken sooner.

"This prestige class is approximately as strong as the average full casting PrC" is a terrible metric for what counts as "overpowered."

[John Longarrow]

From a purely mechanical standpoint, unless you have a very specific ability or character design you are working for there is no downside to taking Abj Champ over a lot of other pClasses. Its upsides are fairly significant for a straight caster (HP, free metamagics automatically applied, quicken abjurations, full BAB) make it almost a default over wizard. The quicken abjuration at 2nd is particularly powerful since you can cast spells like dispell magic as a swift action.

I generally count any prestige class as overpowered when you have to find a reason NOT to take it.

[Beheld]

From a purely mechanical standpoint, unless you have a very specific ability or character design you are working for there is no downside to taking Abj Champ over a lot of other pClasses. Its upsides are fairly significant for a straight caster (HP, free metamagics automatically applied, quicken abjurations, full BAB) make it almost a default over wizard. The quicken abjuration at 2nd is particularly powerful since you can cast spells like dispell magic as a swift action.

I generally count any prestige class as overpowered when you have to find a reason NOT to take it.

So... you count all prestige classes as overpowered? Abjurant Champion doesn't give you anything better than the things you get from all the other classes I name. And you can have 5 or more levels of most of them before you can even take AbCh.

Also, I'm really unimpressed with your ability to roll 1d20+10 against 10+15 as a swift action, so say nothing of how Create Magic Tattoo and Ring of Enduring Arcana make spells immune to dispel magic at level 15. Quickened Dispel Magic is pretty bad, it's basically just "pick one item, that item doesn't work for 1d4 rounds."

[Lans]

There's an important difference between different kinds of capstones, though. It's not a difference of quantity, but a qualitative difference.

One kind of capstone is the good kind of capstone - it takes what your character was already doing and makes you better at it. Druids get Huge elemental forms. Barbarian gets Mighty Rage. Monk gets his last damage die increase. All the feats and gear you already have support this new ability without you needing to do anything special. You can use it to its optimal extent without needing to build for it. All the boring capstones (+1 to inspire courage, 5th favored enemy) fall here too, but at least they are usable..

^This. Nothing feels like a fail more, than when a class gets something good that doesn't fit at all with what he got before.

Truenamers and Healers with getting gate for an example.

[John Longarrow]

Beheld,

The others you listed either have a feat/skill tax involved, put limits on you, or both. Lets look at incantrix. The skills you'll probably have anyway, same with a metamagic. Iron will on a caster isn't often found unless you are trying to qualify for a class. Compared to combat casting for Abj Champ, its a little harder to get into. Both have full casting. Incantrix gets some pretty cool abilities but trades off having a banned school to do so. Not a slam dunk to choose over wizard (or other classes) as it depends on which metamagic feats you have an are looking to use. In the class there is a down side to taking it, the banned school. Conversely, the only downside for taking Abj Champ is NOT taking another prestige class. It is easier to get into than Incantrix, has a feat you are much more likely to take with a caster, and is really a fantastic choice for Gish builds / dipping from a full melee build. It is by far more useful for multiple builds than Incantrix as it goes very well in any full melee build. That level of versatility plus the lack of a real downside is what makes it over the top for me.

It also lets you have 14 levels of full BAB with a one level dip in an arcane casting class and then finish the prestige class. You wind up with almost the same caster level as a straight caster. That really makes it a no-brainer for for lots of builds.

[Beheld]

The others you listed either have a feat/skill tax involved, put limits on you, or both. Lets look at incantrix. The skills you'll probably have anyway, same with a metamagic. Iron will on a caster isn't often found unless you are trying to qualify for a class. Compared to combat casting for Abj Champ, its a little harder to get into. Both have full casting. Incantrix gets some pretty cool abilities but trades off having a banned school to do so. Not a slam dunk to choose over wizard (or other classes) as it depends on which metamagic feats you have an are looking to use. In the class there is a down side to taking it, the banned school. Conversely, the only downside for taking Abj Champ is NOT taking another prestige class. It is easier to get into than Incantrix, has a feat you are much more likely to take with a caster, and is really a fantastic choice for Gish builds / dipping from a full melee build. It is by far more useful for multiple builds than Incantrix as it goes very well in any full melee build. That level of versatility plus the lack of a real downside is what makes it over the top for me.

If you are seriously going to argue that Abjurant Champion is:
1) Easier to get into than Incantatrix.
2) That anyone in the history or D&D has ever taken Combat Casting for any reason besides needing it to qualify for something or making a dumb decision.
3) Is More versatile than Incantatrix.
4) Is better for melee builds than Incantatrix.
and that there is any reason to not take levels in Incantatrix besides "Man, I really don't feel like completely breaking the game over my knee today."

Then I just rest my case. I bet you also think Spelldancer "is not a slam dunk to take over Wizard" instead of you know, being permabanned for being so much better than Wizard.

[Zaq]

This is actually a really interesting topic, and I don't have a unified opinion on it. I'm probably not saying much that hasn't been touched on already, but oh well.

I mean, looking at it from one angle, higher levels should come with higher-level abilities. Ideally, we want those abilities to be more interesting than just "exactly what you already did, only with slightly higher numbers"—as a key example, when's the last time you saw a high-level straight-class Paladin in a real game, at least without super-heavy ACFing (to the point of the A-Game Paladin)? It's not very satisfying to just get an additional Smite per day or Remove Disease per week, so most Paladin-style builds PrC out after they get whatever feature they were looking for (usually Turn Undead and/or the Mount), seeking more rewarding class features. There's some wiggle room for "higher numbers" capstones when the numbers they're increasing are actually a really key part of the build (Sneak Attack and Inspire Courage, for example), but even then, the hope is that your class is giving more than JUST that at the highest levels of play. Higher-level challenges are difficult for reasons other than "the monsters have bigger numbers," so if your only response to that is "my character has bigger numbers," you're not going to feel more powerful for leveling up, which seems to go against the goals of a level-based system.

Looking from another angle, there's the issue of putting a disproportionately powerful ability at the very end of a class. That's not likely to do much but make the class feel really awkward (Truenamers getting Conjunctive Gate being a shining example), and it definitely brings up questions about what the high levels of play are "supposed" to look like. How long are you expecting a player (not a character, a player) to have access to these toys? Is it only going to last a few sessions as the campaign wraps up? Is it going to be the foundation of your Epic power? Both? Neither? I don't think it's wise to have a capstone that's jarringly different from the rest of the class. The flip side, of course, is the insultingly weak capstone, which is also bad; you don't want level 20 to be radically different from level 19, but you still want it to be something to look forward to.

There's also the fact that 3.5 makes multiclassing (both for base classes and for PrCs) so easy as to be nearly inevitable. Multiclassing is pretty much the rule rather than the exception. As is often the case, it's truly the exception that proves the rule, insofar as it's the fact that the exceptions are exceptional that really makes us realize how pervasive the rule is. For example, Druid stands out because it has so many cool things that basically nothing replicates it, and there are some niche classes that don't have any PrCs that advance their key features—for example, nothing but more Knight levels improves a Knight's Challenge, and while Master Spellthief lets a Spellthief steal higher-level spells, nothing but more Spellthief levels lets them store and use those higher-level spells, to say nothing of Steal SLA and Steal Spell Effect. (This isn't to necessarily say that Knight 20 or Spellthief 20 are automatically the best choices—those classes certainly have other problems—but they do have something holding them to their base class that Fighter and Rogue don't have.) But in general, there has to be some specific reason for a character not to find a PrC that advances the niche they want to fill or not to find a dip class or two that complements their abilities nicely. When discussing capstones, then, the question we have to ask is "is this a good thing or a bad thing?" Do we want to reward people who stick out a class to the bitter end, eschewing the charms of dips and/or PrCs? If so, why? I mean, at least as far as dipping goes (ignoring PrCs for a moment), one would hope that the high-level abilities of a given class would outweigh the benefits of the low-level abilities of the class you're dipping into for the purposes of a high-level character, but that's obviously not actually the case most of the time. If the promise of a cool capstone is the ONLY thing preventing someone from leaving their chosen base class, that's poor design for a different reason (the levels leading up to the capstone should also offer interesting and useful abilities; in a truly well-designed system, every level should be rewarding in its own right), of course.

But really, since multiclassing and PrCing are so inextricably bound to the reality of the system, is it a good thing or a bad thing to offer capstones that discourage them? Is there actually a reason to reward people for not taking advantage of what makes 3.5's level-based system as modular as it is? Have characters who stick with a single class and don't pick a PrC "earned" something that their PrC-using cousins haven't?

PrC capstones are another point of contention. On the face of things, they seem to make a bit of sense: you have to earn your way into the class to begin with, and while you don't want to leave the class's iconic abilities out of reach forever, there's some nominal logic to making the later abilities stronger than the earlier abilities. Part of the problem is that for the majority of PrCs, there's a variable window of time in which the PrC can be entered, so a capstone that's appropriate if the class is entered ASAP might be lackluster if the class is entered later. (This is the case with a lot of Iron Chef capstones; many of them aren't amazing to begin with, since Iron Chef Secret Ingredients aren't generally good classes, but there's quite a few where the developers obviously forgot that level 10 in a PrC is very much not ECL 10. The contestants usually put on their game faces and bravely bluster to the judges about how cool the PrC's capstone is when you get it at ECL 18, even though it's actually more appropriate for ECL 7-9; some judges buy it, and some judges don't. I have a very clear memory of someone calling Incandescent Champion's aura of 4d6 damage, which requires that you do nothing else, their "crowning glory" or something similar, ignoring the fact that 4d6 damage has been pointless since single-digit levels.) Overall, many PrC capstones just suffer from being uninteresting, but I don't think the concept is inherently fraught with peril.

Overall, if you were designing the system from the ground up, I think the issue would mostly be resolved by adhering very faithfully to the design philosophy that every single level should offer something interesting and useful. This conversation would look very different if the last level of a class were just the next step in a set of cool abilities, rather than something hanging out alone after a bunch of "more of the same" levels. Players should still have the choice to take those abilities or to seek other ability packages in the form of dips and PrCs. But if every level of every class mattered, then that choice would be felt at every level, for good and for ill; you'd be giving up whatever was at the next level of your base class right away (and not just "oh well, I was going to get something cool in five levels, but now I'm not"), but you'd also be getting something cool in return right away (because every level of the class you took instead should ALSO matter), so leveling up would still be rewarding.

As the system exists right now? I think it's too big to declare a unified answer. Yeah, I think it's dumb to have the Rogue, with no actual class features at level 20. I also think it's dumb to have the Truenamer, who gets a crazy disproportionate power boost at level 20, and I think it's dumb to have the Paladin, who, at level 20, is more powerful for one attack per day (not even one round per day) more than they are at level 19. I don't think that multiclassing is inherently sinful and should be implicitly discouraged, but I also think it's a little weird when the high-level abilities of a given class are less attractive than the low-level abilities of a different class. I'm not comfortable demanding that all capstones be jacked up in power (again, if the class offers nothing compelling between 15 and 19, I don't give a damn how cool level 20 is), but I also don't think it's necessarily a good idea to abolish the practice. It's all just part of the crazy, piecemeal, ridiculously over-complex mess called 3.5 that we know and love.

[John Longarrow]

If you are seriously going to argue that Abjurant Champion is:
1) Easier to get into than Incantatrix.
2) That anyone in the history or D&D has ever taken Combat Casting for any reason besides needing it to qualify for something or making a dumb decision.
3) Is More versatile than Incantatrix.
4) Is better for melee builds than Incantatrix.
and that there is any reason to not take levels in Incantatrix besides "Man, I really don't feel like completely breaking the game over my knee today."

Then I just rest my case. I bet you also think Spelldancer "is not a slam dunk to take over Wizard" instead of you know, being permabanned for being so much better than Wizard.

1) Yes. Look at prereqs.
2) Yes. {Scrubbed}
3) I never stated it was more versatile. Strawman arguement. {Scrubbed}
4) Full BAB, better hit points, better at not being hit in combat. Depending on spells available it can be far better in combat. Also depends on DMs world / groups playstyle.

{Scrubbed}

[Beheld]

1) Yes. Look at prereqs.

Sure one, you can meet all the prereqs at level 5, and you take feats that are useful, and the other one takes until level 10, and requires a feat that is objectively worse than skill focus.

One of those is easier than the other, and it's not the one you think it is.


4) Full BAB, better hit points, better at not being hit in combat. Depending on spells available it can be far better in combat. Also depends on DMs world / groups playstyle.

Greater Invis, Displacement, and Greater Blink always up makes you harder to hit than +2-5 AC on your quickened (at level 12) Shield spell. If you have buff spells at all, Persisting them is better than two BAB.

[The Viscount]

The other kind of capstone is like Perfect Self - it requires you to suddenly change how you play to take advantage of it. Did you buy a permanent enlarge person? Haha, what a dork. Are you an Arcane Archer who finally got to level 10? I hope you were picking up bonuses to SLAs along the way, or that DC won't phase anybody you meet. There are few of these even in Core, because I think WotC realized how stupid these were.

The more time passes, the more I become doubtful that WotC knows what was and wasn't stupid. Many quotes form them talking about design makes it seem as if they lack a full understanding of what is good and what isn't.

More than anything I think the complete lack of unity for capstones is a result of the same lack of unity that makes some ToB disciplines far more powerful and less restricted than others. It seems a lot like everything was done by teams or individuals that had little to no communication with each other, and as a result no single idea of what would make a capstone, or even whether they should exist.

A few examples:

Divine Disciple is a good class. It is full casting and can be entered by a cleric with essentially no effort at level 7. At ECL 12 you gain the capstone of outsider type with the alignment subtype of your deity. This means you're in to fiend of possession at ECL 13, with 12 levels of cleric behind you. This is a strong capstone at the end of a good class.

Cabinet Trickster is a largely OK class that suddenly becomes great. Entry at level 5 requires 1 (mildly useful) feat, a specific race, and a skill that is not common. The first 4 levels give 2 OK bonus feats and the ability to read minds or perform some useful tricks 2 and then 4 times per day. Suddenly at 5th level it all changes. You can use all your tricks and mind reading at will. In addition, you gain change shape like a doppelganger at ECL 10. This is a great capstone as a reward for putting in time.

Streetfighter is a mediocre class. Entry at level 5 requires 2 feats and either specific class choice or some wrangling to get the required skills. You get some OK class features from it. The capstone is uncanny dodge, a feature you could have gained 8 levels ago in barbarian, if that's what you wanted.


The point here is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of unified attitude toward capstones, and as a result capstones are all over the place. Personally I like capstones and would prefer a class that has them over one that doesn't, but I don't think they are absolutely necessary for every class.

[Psyren]

Capstones are definitely a good idea. It gives both the players and GM great hooks about what a true master of that class is capable of. Even if the players never get there themselves, you can still use them for NPCs, ancestors, forgotten relics and such. They also provide great hooks when it comes to designing minor artifacts and what they can do.

I view them like the Epic Destinies from 4e - they're used more to tell your character's epilogue, or at least the big climax and denouement.

One thing that I've toyed with though is having an artifact or mythic power that grants you access to your class' capstone for one minute or something, for use as the Eleventh Hour Superpower while fighting the BBEG at around the 15th-17th level range.

[Milo v3]

As a guy who plays at high levels, yep. Very good idea.