Beget Bogun Confusion

[FocusWolf413]

This spell confuses me.
It's a first level spell that gives life to a small construct. It's cool, but it seems pretty useless.
It's a first level spell, but the construct needs to be made by a 7th level character, and it needs an eighth level spell, control plants, cast into it. If it dies, you take 2d10 damage. That's like getting stabbed with three rapiers. Am I missing something that makes this spell so extremely useful? It has no combat ability and it's a mediocre scout. It's either a first level spell with a ridiculously expensive component or it's a first level spell that you can't cast until 15th level. What's the big deal?

[Cosi]

I can't speak to all of that, but the spell (and Boguns) originated in the MM2, which was a 3e book. IIRC, in the switch from 3e to 3.5, control plants got bumped from 3rd level 4th level to 8th level. That change also screwed over people who wanted to take the Verdant Lord PrC.

But yes, they aren't very good.

EDIT: A quick check with the 3e SRD confirms that this was in fact what happened. In 3e, control plants is a 4th (not 3rd) level Druid spell, while command plants is an 8th level Druid spell. In 3.5, the reverse is true. Go go gadget pointless change!

[FocusWolf413]

Beget bogun got added to the spell compendium, which is 3.5 material.

[ATHATH]

There's gotta be a way to get Control Plants early as an SLA or something...

[Cosi]

Beget bogun got added to the spell compendium, which is 3.5 material.

Yep. Complete Divine too. As far as I can tell, the guy who did it just copy-pasted the spell from earlier sources.

I would allow people to create them with command plants if they wanted to, but Boguns don't work right by RAW.

[FocusWolf413]

Yep. Complete Divine too. As far as I can tell, the guy who did it just copy-pasted the spell from earlier sources.

I would allow people to create them with command plants if they wanted to, but Boguns don't work right by RAW.

Not that the 3e version is good (it's not), but the 3.5 version deals 2d10 damage to the caster when it dies. The clerical error is barely forgivable, but did they really decide that the spell needed to be nerfed? It's not like it was powerful in the first place. Also, a fourth level spell for an 11hp creature? No thank you.

Wonderful concept. Terrible execution.

[Cosi]

Not that the 3e version is good (it's not), but the 3.5 version deals 2d10 damage to the caster when it dies. The clerical error is barely forgivable, but did they really decide that the spell needed to be nerfed?

I can only assume that particular change was made to keep the spell in line with the Homunculus. Although I don't actually know if Homunculi behaved that way in 3e, so maybe people just decided that rather than planar binding or simulacrum, beget bogun was the minion making spell that needed a nerf.

[eggynack]

It's pretty awful. It'd be decent without all the crazy requirements, as a low level permanent piece of minionmancy, but if you have access to really high level spells, even from a source outside yourself, then you can do much much much much better things than beget bogun. You didn't even touch on all the crazy downsides, given that you need a feat, skill checks, and a full and uninterrupted week to make it in addition to all the stuff you said, and then diplomacy checks to get it to do stuff. I honestly have no idea what they were thinking, cause the change in spell level only justifies the biggest part of an otherwise ridiculously massive set of costs. You could get rid of every single solitary cost aside from an hour to cast the spell, or maybe a week if you want the ability to call up more than one, as well as that XP cost,and it'd be basically balanced. A good spell, certainly, but not one that'd break much of anything.

[FocusWolf413]

How would you fix it?

I'd say the spell takes ten minutes to half an hour to cast. You need to make a DC 12 craft (sewing, toymaking, weaving, carpentry, woodworking, weaponsmithing, or any other applicable) check. You can't take 10. No feat, no other spells, no disobeyment, none of that garbage. On death, it deals 2d10 nonlethal damage.

Would that fix it?

[Heliomance]

I was in a game with a druid that made a bogun. It was actually really useful, as an incredibly hard-to-notice scout/spy. Well worth it.

[Darrin]

There's gotta be a way to get Control Plants early as an SLA or something...

Nope. I checked.

Beget bogun is an important spell because it officially established Craft: Basketweaving as part of the rules.

[Chronos]

The part I can't understand is what the Beget Bogun spell itself is for. OK, so you, the designer, have decided that druids should have access to something like a homonculus, but with different flavor. I follow so far. You've decided that balance-wise, this ability is appropriate for a 7th-level character. Well, that precise level is debatable, but let's roll with it. So you have a construct whose instructions for making it require a specific 4th-level spell (ignoring the edition-change error that made it 8th). All right, that fits in with the way other constructs work. And now you also add to the requirements a completely new spell that doesn't do anything else? Why? A 1st-level spell slot isn't a significant expense, especially not for something that you're going to be doing during downtime. It doesn't provide a barrier to access, since all druids know their entire spell list anyway. It doesn't even add any flavor to the creation process, because the spell does nothing else. Why does the spell even exist?

Or, alternately, make the Beget Bogun spell itself 4th level, and have the spell just do the job on its own. That would have the same effect of restricting it to 7th-level casters, but avoid a lot of complication.

[eggynack]

How would you fix it?

I'd say the spell takes ten minutes to half an hour to cast. You need to make a DC 12 craft (sewing, toymaking, weaving, carpentry, woodworking, weaponsmithing, or any other applicable) check. You can't take 10. No feat, no other spells, no disobeyment, none of that garbage. On death, it deals 2d10 nonlethal damage.

Would that fix it?
That feels a bit overboard. Losing the feat and spells is fine, but a really low cost scout is effective enough to, in my opinion, justify the damage and disobeying. It's not an ineffective creature, and giving it too cheap and at first level would make it basically a must cast. It's like a crazy long duration spiderhand, and that's a very good spell. You need serious downsides. Just not the ridiculous high level spell and feat costs.

[FocusWolf413]

That feels a bit overboard. Losing the feat and spells is fine, but a really low cost scout is effective enough to, in my opinion, justify the damage and disobeying. It's not an ineffective creature, and giving it too cheap and at first level would make it basically a must cast. It's like a crazy long duration spiderhand, and that's a very good spell. You need serious downsides. Just not the ridiculous high level spell and feat costs.

Yeah, okay. That makes sense.

[martixy]

There's gotta be a way to get Control Plants early as an SLA or something...

Or... you know, point out the dysfunction to the DM(or just acknowledge it as silly in the absence of one) and act like reasonable, intelligent people.

[daremetoidareyo]

There's gotta be a way to get Control Plants early as an SLA or something...

Solved it: Control plants and command plants switched places in between 3.0 and 3.5.
p. 5 of the update accessory booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) I can finally make a verdant lord!

[Fizban]

The damage comes from the fact that it's almost a 1 for 1 druidized version of a homunculus, which also deals 2d10 damage to you on death. The utitility is huge, a cheap, autonomous, small, flying, telepathic scout invalidates a considerable portion of sneaky characters and several spells. As for the 1st level spell, maybe because it was originally in Masters of the Wild (3.0 splat with no monster section), so they wanted a way to justify it showing up.

Of significant note: unlike a homunculus which requires Craft Construct (which itself requires Craft Arms and Armor), a bogun only requires Craft Wondrous Item. So the Druid's getting off easy with a much lower effective feat cost.