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Segev
2016-01-15, 09:50 PM
I am playing a character for whom I like elements of the Occultist and elements of the Investigator, and I am not thrilled with the Psychic Detective archetype because it pushes in not quite the right direction. So, I'm trying to see if I can't put together an archetype that combines Investigator and Occultist.

The short version of it is that this replaces Alchemy with the Occultist's spellcasting and implements, allows Inspiration to be used as Focus Points with the implements he knows as well as for its normal purpose, and grabs the magic item-related powers (Object Reading and Magic Item Skill) in place of the poison stuff and swift alchemy. It can also take Focus Powers from implements as if they were Investigator Talents.

A more formal write-up is in the spoiler block.

As with anything I build for my own use, I fear I may be giving up too little and taking too much, making it overpowered, but I am unsure if it really is so or not. So I come to you, O Homebrewers, for your expert analysis. Please help me judge if this is balanced as an archetype, and help me improve on it or find any flaws that might lie in it.

Thanks!

Occult Researcher (Investigator Archetype)

Spell Casting
An occult researcher casts psychic spells drawn from the occultist spell list, limited by the implement groups he knows. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every occult researcher spell has an implement component (see Implements). To learn or cast a spell, an occult researcher must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an occult researcher's spell equals 10 + the spell level + the occult researcher's Intelligence modifier.

An occult researcher can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is the same as an occultist of his investigator level. In addition, he gains bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

The occult researcher's selection of spells is limited. For each implement school he learns to use, he can add one spell of each level he can cast to his list of spells known, chosen from that school's spell list. If he selects the same implement school multiple times, he adds one spell of each level from that school's list for each time he has selected that school.

When the occult researcher learns to cast a new level of spells, he immediately adds one spell of that level to his list of spells known from each implement school he knows (plus any extra spells from schools he has selected multiple times).

At 5th level and every 3 occult researcher levels thereafter (8th, 11th, and so on), an occult researcher can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the occult researcher loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level occult researcher spell the occult researcher can cast. The spell learned must come from the same list of spells provided by the implement school of the spell lost. An occult researcher can swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for that level.

An occult researcher need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

Implements

At 1st level, an occult researcher learns to use two implement schools. At 2nd level and every 4 occult researcher levels thereafter, the occult researcher learns to use one additional implement school, to a maximum of seven schools at 18th level. Each implement school adds one spell per spell level of that school of magic to the occult researcher's spell list. No spells from any other school are considered to be on the occult researcher's spell list until he selects the associated implement school. He can't use spell trigger or spell completion magic items from unknown schools without succeeding at the appropriate Use Magic Device check. An occult researcher can select an implement school more than once in order to learn additional spells from the associated school.

Each implement school is represented by a small list of objects. Every day, the occult researcher selects one item from that school's list to be his implement for the day for each implement school he knows. The occult researcher needs only one such item to cast spells of the corresponding school, unless he selected that implement school multiple times, in which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained from that school. Implements don't need to be magic items, and non-magical implements don't take up a magic item slot even if they're worn. Implements that are not magic items are often of some historical value or of personal significance to the occult researcher, such as the finger bone of a saint, the broken scepter of a long-dead king, the skull of a mentor's familiar, or the glass eye of an uncanny ancestor.

Whenever an occult researcher casts a spell, he must have the corresponding implement in his possession and present the implement to the target or toward the area of effect.

This act is part of casting the spell and doesn't require any additional action. If the occult researcher lacks the corresponding implement, he cannot cast the spell. To the researcher, his spells are functions of the implements being used properly, not inborn psychic powers of his own.

Each implement school also grants a base focus power. This power is added to the list of focus powers possessed by the occult researcher (see Inspired Focus below). In addition, each implement school grants access to a number of other focus powers that the occult researcher can select from as Investigator Talents. Occult researchers may use their investigator level in place of occultist level prerequisites for learning focus powers as investigator talents.

See Implement Schools (under the occultist class) for a complete list of implements associated with each school and their focus powers.

Knacks: An occult researcher learns one knack, or 0-level psychic spell, each time he selects an implement school (including when he again selects a school that he has already learned to use). These spells are cast like any other spell, but they can be cast any number of times per day. Knacks cast using any other spell slots because of metamagic feats applied to them, for example, consume spell slots as normal.

These abilities replace Alchemy.

Inspired Focus

The occult researcher's inspiration points may be used the way an occultist would use focus points with his implements. Inspiration points invested in an implement can be used as normal or to activate focus powers of that implement, but cannot be accessed for any purpose while that implement is not in the occult researcher's possession. (So they cannot be used even for generic inspiration purposes while the occult researcher does not have them.) For all purposes relating to using focus powers, resonant abilities, or focus points, the occult researcher's effective occultist level is equal to his investigator level.

This ability expands Inspiration.

Object Reading (Su)

At 2nd level, an occult researcher learns how to read information from items he examines.

Examining an item in this way requires him to spend 1 minute handling the item. If the item is a magic item, the occult researcher learns its properties and command word as if he had successfully examined the item using detect magic and succeeded at a Spellcraft check. This ability does not reveal whether the item is cursed unless the occult researcher's class level is equal to or greater than the caster level of the item. If the item has any historical significance, the occult researcher learns one piece of information about its past (as determined by the GM). Finally, if the item was last used no longer than 1 day ago per the occult researcher's class level, the occult researcher learns one piece of information about the last creature to use the item. This information might be a glimpse of the creature's appearance, a brief vision of what it saw while using the item, or perhaps its emotional state when it last used the item. The GM determines what information is gained in this way. This functions like the psychometry occult skill unlock, but doesn't require a skill check and can be used at will.

This ability replaces Swift Alchemy.

Magic Item Skill

At 2nd level, an occult researcher's knowledge of magic items grants him a bonus when attempting to use them. He gains a bonus on all Use Magic Device checks equal to 1/2 his investigator level.

This ability replaces poison lore, poison resistance, and poison immunity.

Fii
2016-01-16, 04:51 AM
Don't forget that you can give up weapon and armor proficiencies. I'm not familiar enough with each class to know whether it's truly overpowered or not, but if you're worried about it you can forfeit proficiencies. Good luck.

Segev
2016-01-18, 10:48 AM
I'll look into those, but as you say, I'm not sure how much they really apply, here, nor how much giving them up would counterbalance anything. Or even, indeed, if more counter-balancing is needed. This might not be "too much." I honestly don't know, and hope for those who know the occult adventures rules a bit better to be able to give some analysis.

I do appreciate the note, however, a I had not thought of that.

Florian
2016-01-18, 02:02 PM
Good idea, very flawed execution.

The Implements are pretty much _the_ class feature of the Occultist, the rest are useful minor goodies that basically are GM-based in their usefulness, so canīt be counted on.

So you lifted the one most useful and defining class features and moved it onto another class framework w/o giving up anything for it. At all.
Implements are pretty much stronger than Alchemy, once you left lvl5 behind you and will get their "capstone" at 9th, so this is a very strong trade here.

Segev
2016-01-18, 02:57 PM
Good idea, very flawed execution.First off, thanks for the response. I'm going to probe it a bit to hope for more analysis, because it's not quite enough for me to figure out how to make the trade better.


The Implements are pretty much _the_ class feature of the Occultist, the rest are useful minor goodies that basically are GM-based in their usefulness, so canīt be counted on.I agree that the rest are minor goodies at best. Implements+spellcasting is the core of the Occultist class. Though the Implement Foci are what make them really stand out, I think.

My effort to trade things up there was to make it cost Investigator Talents to pick up anything more than the base focus ability. I think - though I'll have to run my analysis again to be sure - that if you took ALL of your Investigator Talents as Foci, you'd get as many Foci as an Occultist does, and you'd essentially be trading the incidental goodies of the Occultist for the incidental goodies of the Investigator.

I could be way off base, though; I'd appreciate some explanation of what you'd get that would be stronger than straight occultist, in that case.


So you lifted the one most useful and defining class features and moved it onto another class framework w/o giving up anything for it. At all.Couldn't the same argument be made for the Psychic and the Psychic Detective? The Psychic Detective trades out Alchemy for spells from the Psychic class list. And, at least at levels below 10, the bardic spell progression is almost more generous than the psychic one. The psychic gets higher-level spells a little sooner, but knows sharply fewer.

In any event, what might you suggest be given up here? The Occultist already only gets to 6th level spells, so trading out for a lower-progression class's spell progression isn't going to help, there.


Implements are pretty much stronger than Alchemy, once you left lvl5 behind you and will get their "capstone" at 9th, so this is a very strong trade here.
Could you elaborate on this, please? I'm not sure to what you refer when you say "once you left lvl5 behind you" and what their "'capstone' at 9th" is.

Florian
2016-01-19, 09:04 AM
@Segev:

Look at it this way: Focus Powers offer souped-up or boosted versions of spells in a rather cheap package. With the right picks, you can pretty much do a baseline replacement of other classes.
Some Focus Powers have a prereq of either 5th or 9th levels and these are the ones you generally want to have besides the Base Focus Power.

If you pick the right implement, gaining full access to its spells known, you actually donīt have to invest to much or too heavy in Focus Powers, freeing up your Inspiration/Discoveries here, until you can simply pick the capstone power and be done with it.
Letīs take Abjuration and Illusion as examples, because that are two Implements with good basics and where you can skip all but the capstones.
So, if you can actually chose to keep a Investigator Talent or convert it to a Focus Power, skip what you donīt like and be done with it, youīll end up with stronger choices.

Segev
2016-01-19, 12:20 PM
Ah, okay, so your objection there is to the fact that this hybrid archetype has more options for the same resource than either of its components. Kind-of like if a sorcerer, for example, could pick cleric spells to add to his spells-known. Is that accurate?

When you say "gaining full access to its spells," though, are you saying you believe this archetype is getting more than 1 spell per spell level from each implement? That's not my intent; my intent is that the archetype gets the same spell access as an occultist, which is generous in NUMBER but restrictive in type (at 1 spell per school per level).



All that said, what would you suggest would be a fair thing to give up, or good way to balance this combination? I confess, I like several of the Talents, and I like a few of the Foci. I think I'm pretty blatant in this combination about what "secondary" abilities for the occultist I want; a lot of the Investigator incidentals are open for negotiation to remove, though.

Florian
2016-01-19, 12:48 PM
Ah, okay, so your objection there is to the fact that this hybrid archetype has more options for the same resource than either of its components. Kind-of like if a sorcerer, for example, could pick cleric spells to add to his spells-known. Is that accurate?

When you say "gaining full access to its spells," though, are you saying you believe this archetype is getting more than 1 spell per spell level from each implement? That's not my intent; my intent is that the archetype gets the same spell access as an occultist, which is generous in NUMBER but restrictive in type (at 1 spell per school per level).



All that said, what would you suggest would be a fair thing to give up, or good way to balance this combination? I confess, I like several of the Talents, and I like a few of the Foci. I think I'm pretty blatant in this combination about what "secondary" abilities for the occultist I want; a lot of the Investigator incidentals are open for negotiation to remove, though.

You know how it works: The moment you pick an Implement, you gain spells known.
Also: You gain the spell list, which is important for wands and staffs.
One of the main features with the Occultist is to chose a good Staff, pick a low-level spell that is on the staff to recharge it and wield it with the UMD bonus the class gets.
Take the Evocation implement as an example: Pick Fireball as your 3rd level spell known and then use that to power a Staff of Evocation.
This class is all about items and they enhance the flexibility by a great amount.

Ok, a suggestion: try it the other way around, use Occultist as a basis and turn it into an Investigator. Where would you land?
Compare that to what happens if you stick the Amateur Investigator feat chain onto a regular Occultist.

Segev
2016-01-19, 01:38 PM
I'll have to look into the Amateur Investigator feat chain, actually.

But I did look at doing it the other way, as I was putting this together. I found that trying to fit Investigator Talents into Occultist was a lot harder to manage. (In my own case, for the particular build I want, I also want more Talents than Foci.) In a more general sense, there's also a lot more on the Investigator side that needs one feature to make another work - for instance, a number of Talents key off of Investigator abilities. While I'm not angling for those, I do try to design at least a bit for a more general case than one character. Several Talents, for instance, work off of Studied Strike. I wouldn't object to ditching Studied Strike entirely, but having to them make note that certain Talents are no longer valid seemed clunky to me.

But thanks for pointing out that feat; I'll look it up and see what it offers. While I couldn't care less about "circles" in the Occultist tree, maybe those feats have enough of what I'm looking for.

Segev
2016-01-19, 01:58 PM
Mmh, no, it doesn't do what I want. It's just three skills that you already have to be good at, and if you delve into it, it's combat.

The staff trick isn't something I'd thought of, but...again, how is that different from what a Psychic Detective can do? Pick a low-level spell from the Psychic list for a staff and go.

Unless I'm mistaken, the big sticking point is that Foci are too good to share with anybody but the Occultist, or at least so good that more than "just" the alchemy-related stuff has to be given up for them on Investigator. Is that right? Or is there more to it?

Again, please consider Psychic Detective as, if not the necessary balance point, at least a point of comparison.




This won't be as complete a write-up, but let's explore the possibility of the Occult Researcher being an Occultist archetype, instead.

The idea would be to have "inspired implements" which allow the use of Inspiration and picking up Investigator Talents as substitute foci. Throw in the Eidetic Memory class feature in place of Shift Focus.

Though what to give up EARLY enough is tricky. A lot of what I would like to trade out from Occultist comes at level 4+, while I'd like to see Inspiration enter into it at level 1. Maybe I can't, though, and should just make the archetype start at level 4.

So at level 4, in place of shift focus, they get Inspired Implements, which gives the occult researcher the Investigator's Inspiration class feature, with Focus Points being spent like Inspiration (but only as long as the researcher has the implements into which the focus is invested available). No separate pool of Inspiration points. From that point on, the Occult Researcher can pick up Investigator Talents as if they were Focus Powers.

Trade out Circles or something for the "use Knowledge untrained" feature.

Florian
2016-01-19, 02:42 PM
Hm... *Thinking*

Ok, maybe this will work:

- Start with only one implement, but give the Inspiration class feature
- Associate one Inspiration-related discovery with each implement. You wield it, you get the discovery as a bonus
- True to form, you have to put Mental Focus points in the Implement Inspiration to make it work.
- To contract the missing spells known from the Implement you traded away, give an automatic spell known picked from a small "Investigator"-themed list.

Segev
2016-01-19, 03:19 PM
Hm. So something like:

Divination - Keen Recollection
Abjuration - Trap Sense

...no, that doesn't quite work. Those aren't really "inspiration-related." Maybe pick a Talent to go with each. Or, more flexibly:

"Up to once per Implement, you may choose an Investigator Talent which costs Inspiration to use in place of a Focus. You now treat it in all ways like a Focus power for that Implement, using your Occultist level in place of any required Investigator level and spending Focus in place of Inspiration."

Optionally, could trade Magic Circles and Outside Contact for Studied Combat and Studied Strike, using Focus points in place of Inspiration points with those.

Florian
2016-01-20, 04:32 AM
Hm. So something like:

Divination - Keen Recollection
Abjuration - Trap Sense

...no, that doesn't quite work. Those aren't really "inspiration-related." Maybe pick a Talent to go with each. Or, more flexibly:

"Up to once per Implement, you may choose an Investigator Talent which costs Inspiration to use in place of a Focus. You now treat it in all ways like a Focus power for that Implement, using your Occultist level in place of any required Investigator level and spending Focus in place of Inspiration."

Sure, why not. Chaining that stuff together was just a basic thought, nothing more.



Optionally, could trade Magic Circles and Outside Contact for Studied Combat and Studied Strike, using Focus points in place of Inspiration points with those.

That I wouldīt do. That archetype is more on the caster-heavy side as it is, adding SC and SS is akin to overdoing it. As this is heavy on the Mental Focus, you want massive amounts of INT here to power all your class features, maybe even go Elf for the FCB (Moah! Fokussss!).
Now consider the Elven Combat Style or Kirin Style get chains that net you INT to damage and take SC and SS into account. Pretty serious ouch incoming.