Let's optimize a character with 3 in all stats

[SangoProduction]

There's a thread going around about what to play when you've got 3 in all stats, but I wanted to shift the focus just slightly.

Rules:
Level 10.
ECL may not be above 10.
3.5e is preferred, but PF and 3e are available.

Else: free game.

My Comments:
Truenamer seems a pretty nice option, all considered. (I kinda had the idea, but when others talked of it in that other thread...yeah...)
Druid wildshaper with some good wisdom optimization is also a very solid idea.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I really can't see Truenamer, except maybe in a "can't get any worse" sense. For a class that already has to work hard for every bonus it can get-- both to Truename and to anything else it might want to do to contribute-- the huge penalties seem like they'd really hurt.

Whatever you try, I think the Alternate Form thing is the way to go-- replace as many stats as you can ASAP. Divine Minion is a (probably way too) strong choice for LA+1.

[Yael]

Why not try a Warlock? It's not like it cannot be useful (even on its tier) with a 3 on all its stats.

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see...

Class: Druid-10
Race: Anthropormorphic bat.
Age: Venerable

Wis: 3 base +6 racial + 3 age + 6 enhancement item from somewhere (crafted, perhaps), +2 level up = 18. More than enough to cast 5th level spells.
Feats: Natural spell. Minor Shapeshift. Improved Toughness. Craft Wondrous item.

Use Wildshape to hide, natural spell to cast, minor shapeshift + Improved Toughness to pretend to have 3 hp/level. A +Con item might even get it to something like 1d8/level. Wilding clasps keep it working.

Play as a summoner druid.

[eggynack]

I dunno that you need that much HP optimization on the druid. You're almost certainly not going to have a good HP count, so you're better off focusing on other defenses. I figure you'd want a form adding feat, either exalted, for the reasonably defensive blink dog form, or aberration, for crazy super-defenses, and maybe an actual summoning feat if you're planning to summon stuff.

[Cerefel]

Necropolitan could be something worth looking at to get rid of the HP penalty.

[ManicOppressive]

Honestly, this may be beyond what any level of optimization (short of exploits to go around the problem entirely) can solve. All casting is out the window except maybe Warlock, since you don't have the attributes for it, and you can't front-line because you're gaining 1 HP per level on top of single-digit starting HP. Your AC starts off at 6, which means anything in the game can hit you two thirds of the time and probably one-hit you. You have no more than 2 skill points per level. Any armor puts you to heavy load. And you start with a -4 to hit at level 1.

I could maybe see optimizing it around a level 20 build where we just don't really ask how they got that high at all. But even then, you're not even getting a single attribute outside of penalty range.

In the interest of things to get around the problem, though, and assuming you're thinking of all 3s for the roll and not post creation:

Mineral Warrior Half-Ogre Barbarian:

Stats:

STR: 9
CON: 9
DEX: 3
INT: 3
WIS: 3
CHA: 3

LA +2

Flaws: Weak Will, Shaky (No range attacks likely, and honestly you're going to fail all will saves anyway)
Feats at level 1: Extra Rage, Extended Rage, Instantaneous Rage

Use a weapon with reach. Always be raging. While raging you have 13 CON and 13 STR, which would almost be "just regular levels of bad" if you weren't raging on a normal barbarian. At level 4, put a point in STR. At 8, in CON. From then on, pump STR. You are the dumbest thing on the battlefield, and you don't hit particularly hard, but... Well, what else do you want.

[Sian]

IIRC, it have been discussed a number of times, with the consensus ending up being something among the lines of a Sparrow Hengeyokai Warlock

[Cerefel]

IIRC, it have been discussed a number of times, with the consensus ending up being something among the lines of a Sparrow Hengeyokai Warlock

Well we could still expand on the idea like adding necropolitan and improved toughness so a stray arrow isn't as likely to be immediately fatal, and working from there?

[Troacctid]

The way you optimize it is by not having 3 in all stats.

[ben-zayb]

Like I said in the previous thread, even at level 1, a Venerable Anthropomorphic Bat is pretty useful with Animal Companion and T1 casting, and it's not like druids readily wade into combat at level 1. At level 3, it can even pick something suboptimal like Fiery Burst or Touch of Healing and still be useful.

Really, Druids are crazy good, especially when attached to a rather thematic anthro animal chassis.


Alternatively, a Divine Minion won't care about your 3s. At mid levels, a Divine Minion Diabolus can pick up something like Monk 2 / Spellthief 1 / Fiend of Possession 6 for an ECL of 10. Fiend of Possession means unlimited colossal BSFs with decent attack for ECL10, great scouting/stealth capabilities, combat versatility by granting your allies any +6 -equivalent weapon, and even healbot capabilities by possessing creatures and using Wild Shape NI times.

[Melcar]

I would use two skillpoint of reading and writing and then read 6+5 tomes. Then I would get the Paragon Template from ELH!

[MisterKaws]

Venerable AnthroBat Dominant Mantle Ardent using Quickened Astral Construct Power Armor.

Not worrying about your stats at all is usually the best way to go in being crappy.

[Jormengand]

I really can't see Truenamer, except maybe in a "can't get any worse" sense. For a class that already has to work hard for every bonus it can get-- both to Truename and to anything else it might want to do to contribute-- the huge penalties seem like they'd really hurt.

The main thing is that once you've overcome what is essentially a -8 penalty to truespeak (for having 3 INT instead of 18) you've overcome all the problems which come with a low INT (you don't need skill points in anything but truespeak anyway). You can be casting on a zero as early as level 3, and quickening on a zero at level 11.

It's not the best thing you can do, but it's one of the simpler ways of making the character practical.

[Zetapup]

Well we could still expand on the idea like adding necropolitan and improved toughness so a stray arrow isn't as likely to be immediately fatal, and working from there?

Actually, you don't even need improved toughness if you can convince your DM to let your necropolitan be created by specific people. Take a look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434812-Creating-a-necropolitan). If your DM is on board with all of it, you get a d12 + 10 hit points every level, plus possibly benefits from corpsecrafter feats (I believe the relevant bonuses are +4 enhancement bonus to str and dex, +10 to speed, and +2 to initiative). Add in reincarnate or awaken cheese, and you could actually end up with a playable character. Note that not everyone agrees with the dread necromancer and necromancy specialist class features working with the rite of crucimigration.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The main thing is that once you've overcome what is essentially a -8 penalty to truespeak (for having 3 INT instead of 18) you've overcome all the problems which come with a low INT (you don't need skill points in anything but truespeak anyway). You can be casting on a zero as early as level 3, and quickening on a zero at level 11.

It's not the best thing you can do, but it's one of the simpler ways of making the character practical.
That's an enormous penalty, and I'm not sure how you're stacking enough bonuses to get around it short of your polymorph-into-that-one-Truespeaking-outsider trick. But even if you can Truespeak-cast just fine, you don't have anything like the defensive boosts to survive the -4 AC, near-inability to wear armor, and effectively 1 HP/level.

[Jormengand]

That's an enormous penalty, and I'm not sure how you're stacking enough bonuses to get around it short of your polymorph-into-that-one-Truespeaking-outsider trick. But even if you can Truespeak-cast just fine, you don't have anything like the defensive boosts to survive the -4 AC, near-inability to wear armor, and effectively 1 HP/level.

Getting med/heavy armour proficiency and putting a set of full plate on would be a start. Admittedly I probably don't have the strength to wear it, but wearing items of stat +blah might be an idea. Polymorphing into a garbler and using bracers of the blast barrier is a nice idea, but actually getting hold of a polymorph is the hard part.

Mainly, relying on the rest of the party (can we have a chain-tripper fighter, BFC wizard and buff cleric, please?) to keep you relatively safe while you blast things with your suboptimal but serviceable utterances is the idea. Obviously you won't be as good as a truenamer with real stats, let alone a wizard with real stats, but that's not really the point.

[Ruethgar]

Empowered Maximized Awakened Advanced Monkey Wizard if we are going with the original thread of rolled stats. Your stats are set in stone with no need to roll.

If your stats get set down to 3 regardless of rules, you can easily get a couple scrolls of familiar form as an anthem raven and go into a medium sized snake with fast healing and live with bad Cha and Int, living as an accurate snake.

[Buufreak]

Is optimizing for a single know: planes 15 check leading into wish shenanigans too far for this exercise?

[LordOfCain]

Is optimizing for a single know: planes 15 check leading into wish shenanigans too far for this exercise?
I'm probably just blanking, but what would a know: planes DC 15 check do?

[Jack_Simth]

I'm probably just blanking, but what would a know: planes DC 15 check do?
It's a reference to a theoretical optimization exercise that took ALL the records that didn't say "no infinite loops" in the challenge.

[ManicOppressive]

Specifically, it's a reference to Pun-Pun the Kobold, who uses an inability to pay attention to RAW and a complete apathy toward RAI to give himself any and every ability in the game as well as raising all scores to indefinite levels.

The Knowledge: Planes check is to know about the Sarrukh, which makes the whole thing "possible." Again, it relies on some silly misinterpretations of the rules.

[LordOfCain]

I thought it had something to do with Pun-Pun but I wasn't sure for what.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Again, it relies on some silly misinterpretations of the rules.

No, it doesn't. It requires the use of an obscure sourcebook, something that's part of the fluff (Pazuzu), and would obviously never fly by an actual DM (that's why it's called "theoretical"), but it follows the rules just fine. Don't even get into RAI, that's a hazy and nebulous thing.

[The Glyphstone]

A Pathfinder Summoner (Synthesist or otherwise) would be able to pull off an all-3 statline too. You'd be unable to cast spells, but the Eidolon is unaffected.

[ManicOppressive]

No, it doesn't. It requires the use of an obscure sourcebook, something that's part of the fluff (Pazuzu), and would obviously never fly by an actual DM (that's why it's called "theoretical"), but it follows the rules just fine. Don't even get into RAI, that's a hazy and nebulous thing.

I'm not interested in getting into this argument again, because it's been done fifty billion times.

[The Glyphstone]

Specifically, it's a reference to Pun-Pun the Kobold, who uses an inability to pay attention to RAW and a complete apathy toward RAI to give himself any and every ability in the game as well as raising all scores to indefinite levels.

The Knowledge: Planes check is to know about the Sarrukh, which makes the whole thing "possible." Again, it relies on some silly misinterpretations of the rules.

However you feel about the legality of the Pun Pun build, it should be noted that the Knowledge check has absolutely noting to do with the Sarrukh. It's a check to learn that Pazuzu grants wishes to people, as listed in Pazuzu's own monster profile wherever he was printed.

[ManicOppressive]

Yeah, my bad, I forget the specifics sometimes.

[LordOfCain]

What book and page number is the Pazuzu granting wishes thing?

[Troacctid]

What book and page number is the Pazuzu granting wishes thing?

Fiendish Codex I, pp76-77.

[LordOfCain]

So if you are LG, you could get four free wishes if you can make a DC 15 Know: Religion check!

[Jack_Simth]

So if you are LG, you could get four free wishes if you can make a DC 15 Know: Religion check!
If you don't mind ending up CE.... but do note that only the first comes with a "not screwed up" clause, and even then, only if you're a Paladin... which you cease to be after the first one.

Edit: Oh, and not that it much matters, but it's a DC 25 check. The 15 comes in with the modifier needed to take 10 on it.

[LordOfCain]

If you don't mind ending up CE.... but do note that only the first comes with a "not screwed up" clause, and even then, only if you're a Paladin... which you cease to be after the first one.

In exchange for
the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast.

[Jack_Simth]

In exchange for
Yes & no. You're asking - not just any demon, but a demon lord - for a wish. A CE creature who doesn't have an ability that grants wishes to others, but an ability to use a Wish. He is not bound by your wording. He takes pains to make it perfect, the first time, for a Paladin. After that? Read the DC 30 knowledge entry.

[Seward]

I second other ideas of either doing an animal companion based character (pathfinder hunter or druid) or a pathfinder summoner (which has the advantage that your -4 to handle animal for a 3 charisma is less of a problem).

If you are in 3.5 instead of pathfinder druid is superior simply because 3.5 allowed stat changes based on polymorph, so once you can live in wildshape 24x7 you'll have great physical stats all the time. A pathfinder Synthesist uses the physical stats of the merged eidelon, but doesn't have a "pet", and if your temp hp are scraped off, you are suddenly back to your 3-stat self (although you can summon one critter to defend you, and keep summoning more if that bodyguard dies). Eidelons are pretty smart (7 int, 10 wis and cha) and they can take +8 skill evolutions so you can actually cover a few skills that way at cost of some combat power. Also you can use wands in both druid and summoner model so you actually can access spellcasting to some extent, allowing the feeble "master" character to contribute to the pet's success.

In pathfinder you would die at -3hp too, which could be something of a problem The biggest rap on the synthesist is it puts your own body out there as a real target. Far better to remote control a pet while you hide under an invisibility potion or something.

[Ruethgar]

You don't think my awakened monkey wizard is a good choice?

Even if you were required to take the 3 and do racial adjustments like in Lycan, 19 Int is still enough to cast Familiar Form twice at level 5 to be indefinitely inside your Dung Snake familiar with a decent hunk of HP(39 before Con if maxed at 1st and average per level assuming familiar health still applies) and 8 BaB with nice Str/Dex/Con and Fast Healing.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Polymorph any object replaces 4/6 stats outright, so find a form with stats to match your class (basically anything without Cha/Wis dependence) and pay someone to cast PAO on you (twice, if need be) to make it permanent.

[Seward]

I prefer ideas that could be played at level 1 and don't require assuming a friendly caster that will buff you with 8th level spells. Also the idea doesn't work in Pathfinder, because polymorph got reworked. I also don't like the idea of a single dispel magic reverting me to all 3s and nothing else going for me. Awaken isn't as bad as Polymorph Any Object but nothing you can do as yourself without actual attribute replacement will be as good as something a strongly supported pet class+wands can do for you.

hence the Druid in 3.5 (because wildshape really does fix everything as soon as it comes online, all day) and Summoner in Pathfinder seems like the best way to go (even if your eidelon gets ganked you can summon one useful critter as a standard action, and replace it each time it gets killed), using wands as soon as you can afford them to back up your pet. Pathfinder has no good fixes for the stat problem (because the ability to dump physical stats and fix them with polymorph effects was something they set out explicitly to solve when they adapted it from 3.5), although eventually you can bump your con enough to have some hitpoints, and the +1 hp/level as favored class bonus will essentially double your hitpoints gained after level 1.

[Ruethgar]

Awaken can be fluffed otherwise and need not be Empowered and Maximized to be effective(though I would at least get Enpower for Int 4 and +4 Cha).

The monkey has by far the highest power potential with an ECL of 0 and up to 6d10 HD and can be fluffed as the Monkey god if you like cheesy Kung Fu shows like that.

You could also be just a slightly smarter animal if you wanted to play it that way with the 3 Int. I know many people who wanted to play a cat and they are also ECL 0 with 3HD and have some official(albeit April Fools) support in Fabulous Cats.

You could easily play a drake if you didn't want a full fledged dragon or DWK as an ECL 0 awakened lizard with Dragontouched and Dragon Wings.

You could also fluff it as being anointed by a god to be his champion. Or having some strange bloodline that manifests as a slight bit of Int. And best of all you can still do most anything you wanted to beforehand.

True there is no support in PF for this kind of thing(that I know of) but Dragon being published by the same company might sway a DM to allow the port even if it is a 3.0 article.

[JyP]

Jiminy Cricket, the Good Conscience of an Unlucky Halfling Adventurer :

Ghost +0 (Ghostwalk) Half-celestial +4 Phrenic +2 Grig +3 cleric of Yondalla 1

Str - (2), Dex 13, Con 9, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 15

•Darkvision out to 60 feet.
•Immunity to disease.
•Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and electricity 10.
•Damage reduction: 5/magic
•A half-celestial’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
•Spell resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10 (maximum 35).
•+4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison.
•power resistance equal to its Hit Dice +10.

Spell-Like Abilities
at will—daylight
1/day—bless, force screen
3/day— defensive precognition, disguise self, entangle, invisibility (self only), Protection from evil, pyrotechnics, ventriloquism.


=> you play the good conscience of an adventurer, while not being too bright - a good way to pester another player ;)