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grifter730

2016-01-16, 12:04 AM

Tanarii

2016-01-16, 12:27 AM

grifter730

2016-01-16, 01:34 AM

Land Druid? They have a mix of healing, ranged attacks & AoE, and control.

Also Lore Bard if you guys need lots of skill coverage would be good. You can poach some AoE with Additional Magical Secrets at level 6 take Fireball. Or just use Shatter.

What kind of weapon do you think I should use? I'll check out the guides for both of those classes, but any additional pointers would be appreciated.

WMO?

2016-01-16, 01:46 AM

You could go Knowledge Cleric. Knowledge Cleric is the third in the trifecta of skill monkey classes/subclasses, after Rogue and Bard.

You get decent ranged damage, good healing, and a broad and customizable spell list to prepare from (cleric), Expertise-lite and languages, interesting socially-useful channel divinity trickery at lvl 6, and bonus cantrip damage for your basic ranged attack at lvl 8 (domain)

Tanarii

2016-01-16, 02:09 AM

What kind of weapon do you think I should use? I'll check out the guides for both of those classes, but any additional pointers would be appreciated.
Until you get some decent non-cantrip spellcasting, probably Thorn Whip & Shillelagh + Shield for a Land Druid. If you make a Dex/Wis Druid you could use a Scimitar (or even two) instead of Shillelagh. But be aware Thorn Whip requires a free hand for the S & M components, so if it's full of Sheild + Club/Shillelagh/Scimitar technically you can't cast it. (Although many DMs will ignore this.)

Rapier & Vicious Mockery for a Lore Bard. They're pretty straight forward.

Levism84

2016-01-16, 02:22 AM

If you go warlock, you two could be a real Holy Hell.

Eldritch Blast would take care of ranged attack coverage and Pact Magic and Invocations would give you a nice mix of arcane abilities for combat, exploration, and social. Pact of the Tome would give you access to a variety of spells through rituals. With you both being Charisma-based casters, you should be able to handle most social situations fine.

You two could play as vengeance against a particular patron (your patron?) and trying to bring the hurt against its agents in the world. Perhaps the paladin teamed up with you to "fight the greater evil." Perhaps you both show "no mercy for the wicked." You both could be fine with winning the day "by any means necessary." A catharsis on behalf of your character could allow for your partnership with the paladin to be "restitution" for your past sins and evil deeds. Perhaps you teamed up with the paladin because you found the price you paid for your dark powers too much. Perhaps you are the Ego to the paladin's Id. Either way, it could be fun and a warlock mixes well with a vengeance paladin thematically.

Paeleus

2016-01-16, 02:47 AM

A rogue. Your paladin has the healing (not all that important in 5e, depending), the tankiness, and the melee. Yall could benefit from expertise, sneakiness, and underhanded dealings complimenting the Paladin's straightward methods.

Another suggestion is a Bard for skills, spellcasting, and flexibility. You'd be the face, the paladin would be the muscle, more or less.

djreynolds

2016-01-16, 03:03 AM

MaxWilson

2016-01-16, 03:13 AM

Personally, I'd go Rogue 2/Bladesinger X in that situation (if your DM allows Bladesinger) if I could scrape up decent stats for it. You'll be a skillmonkey, a capable ranged attacker, a grappler when necessary, a backup melee tank (especially if you take Mobile and Booming Blade), the party scout, and the party wizard (intel specialist/summoner/Counterspeller/etc.). Essentially you're the Rogue/Wizard and he's the Fighter/Cleric, two halves of the classic four-man party.

Although Bladesinger is not mandatory. Given how good Cunning Action is in the dark, you have a wide latitude to try a different specialty like Abjuror or Necromancer instead, if it sounds fun to you. I picked Bladesinger because it's a nice generalist specialty which adds some movement and defense options to free your paladin up from having to worry about your safety.

Moon Druid would be my second choice. (Mobile and Sentinel.)

grifter730

2016-01-16, 03:28 AM

So many options, I'll have to spend some time reading up on these classes. Please keep in mind the paladin's weakness when you're responding. Specifically, I'm looking for someone capable of any/all of the following: range attack, AoE, full caster, and healing would be a bonus, though the pally can do emergency heals if needed to survive

If you go warlock, you two could be a real Holy Hell. Eldritch Blast would take care of ranged attack coverage and Pact Magic and Invocations would give you a nice mix of arcane abilities for combat, exploration, and social. Pact of the Tome would give you access to a variety of spells through rituals. With you both being Charisma-based casters, you should be able to handle most social situations fine.

I gotta say, Levism84's idea of the warlock is thematically fitting for the campaign, as the paladin isn't an LG character, but one hellbent on vengeance (think Sicario, minus the evil acts). Warlock seems to tick off the right boxes: range attack and full caster. I don't know enough about them to know if they can do AoE or not.

Personally, I'd go Rogue 2/Bladesinger X in that situation (if your DM allows Bladesinger) if I could scrape up decent stats for it. You'll be a skillmonkey, a capable ranged attacker, a grappler when necessary, a backup melee tank (especially if you take Mobile and Booming Blade), the party scout, and the party wizard (intel specialist/summoner/Counterspeller/etc.). Essentially you're the Rogue/Wizard and he's the Fighter/Cleric, two halves of the classic four-man party.

Bladesinger is also a really intriguing idea. I'd never heard of it (I'm a complete newbie), but if I understand it right, it's a full wizard? That's pretty nutty. I'm not really understanding the need for going Rogue 2...? Doesn't seem like it's worth slowing down the spellcasting progression, but I could be wrong.

Moon Druid would be my second choice.

Wouldn't a moon druid rely mainly on melee attacks for combat...?

MaxWilson

2016-01-16, 03:34 AM

Until you get some decent non-cantrip spellcasting, probably Thorn Whip & Shillelagh + Shield for a Land Druid. If you make a Dex/Wis Druid you could use a Scimitar (or even two) instead of Shillelagh. But be aware Thorn Whip requires a free hand for the S & M components, so if it's full of Sheild + Club/Shillelagh/Scimitar technically you can't cast it. (Although many DMs will ignore this.)

Why would you be trying to Thorn Whip and wield a club simultaneously? Just for the opportunity attack?

Thorn Whip goes well with Mobile. You can use it to protect the Paladin.

=============================================

You two could play as vengeance against a particular patron (your patron?) and trying to bring the hurt against its agents in the world. Perhaps the paladin teamed up with you to "fight the greater evil." Perhaps you both show "no mercy for the wicked." You both could be fine with winning the day "by any means necessary." A catharsis on behalf of your character could allow for your partnership with the paladin to be "restitution" for your past sins and evil deeds. Perhaps you teamed up with the paladin because you found the price you paid for your dark powers too much. Perhaps you are the Ego to the paladin's Id. Either way, it could be fun and a warlock mixes well with a vengeance paladin thematically.

Paladin & Warlock/Rogue sounds like a buddy-cop movie.

============================================

So many options, I'll have to spend some time reading up on these classes. Please keep in mind the paladin's weakness when you're responding. Specifically, I'm looking for someone capable of any/all of the following: range attack, AoE, full caster, and healing would be a bonus, though the pally can do emergency heals if needed to survive

Sounds like you might want the Healer feat (on variant human chassis) for short-rest healing and unlimited emergency heals.

I gotta say, Levism84's idea of the warlock is thematically fitting for the campaign, as the paladin isn't an LG character, but one hellbent on vengeance (think Sicario, minus the evil acts). Warlock seems to tick off the right boxes: range attack and full caster. I don't know enough about them to know if they can do AoE or not.

Yes, Fiendlocks can very much do AoE (Fireball and Wall of Fire, goes well with Repelling Blast invocation). You could go Fighter 1/Fiendlock X for plate armor and Con save proficiency, with the Healer feat. Lots and lots of temp HP, up to four Fireballs per short rest, Eldritch Blast for ranged attackers, Fly spell access, etc. Go Pact of the Tome/Book of Ancient Secrets for utility rituals like Augury/Divination/Leomund's Tiny Hut/Meld into Stone/Phantom Steed, assuming your DM will cooperate by letting you find them (otherwise it is useless). Can be very fun in a combat-heavy campaign.

Bladesinger is also a really intriguing idea. I'd never heard of it (I'm a complete newbie), but if I understand it right, it's a full wizard? That's pretty nutty. I'm not really understanding the need for going Rogue 2...? Doesn't seem like it's worth slowing down the spellcasting progression, but I could be wrong.

Bladesinger is from a splatbook (Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide). Key selling point is increased survivability in melee (e.g. 2/short rest you can add your Int to your AC for a minute, using your bonus action, plus misc other bonuses). The point of Rogue 2 is to radically increase survivability by letting you use your bonus action to Hide or Dash every round. Hide is terrific because if the monsters can't locate you, they have to guess your location (as the PHB says, the DM will just say, "You missed," without telling you whether there was actually a monster in that place or not--or in this case, without the monster knowing if there was a Bladesinger there). And you get advantage on your next attack (which could be a Booming Blade cantrip, also from SCAG, which does good damage and approximately double damage if they move on their next turn) and then vanish back into hiding, which could be within a 1st level Fog Cloud that you dropped on yourself. Having advantage on your Fire Bolts also makes your cantrips more efficient. Unlike other wizards, you don't get any cool specialization bonuses like an Illusionist or Abjuror does (because Bladesinger is your specialty), but since even the base wizard chassis is quite good you'll do just fine.

I don't mind slowing spellcasting progression if it increases my survivability, especially in a two-man group. Sure, it would be nice to have Mass Suggestion by 11th level, but Conjure Elemental and Wall of Force will still keep me happy, and I effectively have constant, no-concentration Expeditious Retreat on all the time. When the pure wizard 9 is playing with his Wall of Force, I'll be enjoying my (Mobile) Vampiric Touch + Cunning Action (Dash or Hide), or Greater Invisibility, etc. In other words, having a slower spell access but a better concentration economy is mostly a win in my book, and that's before you even count things like my extra Sneak Attack die, Stealth/Athletics expertise, and extra skill proficiencies. The only time I'll be regretting the Rogue levels at all is levels 17 and 18, because it'll be preventing me from getting Wish, True Polymorph, and Spell Mastery... but at level 19 I'll go right back to being glad I've got those Rogue levels.

Wouldn't a moon druid rely mainly on melee attacks for combat...?

Oops, forgot about the context. Yes, a Moon Druid's primary "ranged" attacks are Call Lightning (doesn't work outdoors) and conjured animals. It's the key thing that prevents me from loving the class: no good ranged attacks.

Levism84

2016-01-16, 10:42 PM

I gotta say, Levism84's idea of the warlock is thematically fitting for the campaign, as the paladin isn't an LG character, but one hellbent on vengeance (think Sicario, minus the evil acts). Warlock seems to tick off the right boxes: range attack and full caster. I don't know enough about them to know if they can do AoE or not.

Warlock has a few AoE spells on its spell list, namely arms of Hadar (necrotic, 10-foot radius centered on self), hunger of Hadar (acid/cold, 20-foot radius within 150 feet), and shatter (thunder, 10-foot radius within 60 feet). However, your patron can grant you access to more AoE spells, especially if you go Fiend patron. If you are looking for more variety in AoE spells, you might want to look at other spellcasters.

Also, keep in mind you get to automatically cast these spells at the highest level of spell you can cast. Unfortunately, this caps out at 5th level spell slots at warlock level 9th. You then get Mystic Arcaniums to cover the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells to get warlock up to full caster. It is slightly different mechanics than other spellcasters. The trade-off comes from regaining your warlock spell slots after a short rest, rather than after a long rest. Since the paladin regains their channel divinity after a short rest, this might be a good fit for you to take more short rests between encounters instead of rampaging all day and then taking one long rest at the end.

I enjoy warlocks, but you should do some more research to see if they would be right for what you are looking to do.

Tanarii

2016-01-16, 10:49 PM

Specifically, I'm looking for someone capable of any/all of the following: range attack, AoE, full caster, and healing would be a bonus, though the pally can do emergency heals if needed to survive
This just screams Bard to me.

gameogre

2016-01-16, 11:12 PM

I know many of you will be shocked to read me say this but....Barbarian.

Why? Because they are fragging Gods on earth and to play anything else would be weaksauce. Oh sure the world needs Paladins and Clerics and bards as well but let someone else play them while you just stride across the world shattering skull and sword and Draconuc morale.

grifter730

2016-01-17, 02:54 AM

Okay, so I've checked out several of these classes. Bladesinger is cool, but it's a melee class, so I'm ruling that one out. Lore Bard and Land Druid both have promise, but I'm really not sure how they handle combat. Do they mainly do buffs/control? Or can they sustain decent range damage? From what I gather, they're both full casters, they both can do healing, and they both have AoEs. That's pretty much good enough for me even if they're not all that great at range. The problem is that if a purely range encounter hits us, I'm not sure how we'll survive long enough to kill all the enemies. Warlock seems insanely badass. They can do range attacks like nobody's business, they have some AoE, and they're sort of a full caster. I think they can pick up healing spells through their class abilities? Even if they can't, I still like them a lot that I don't want to rule them out.

Another possibility is that maybe the paladin can go multiclass by either taking warlock 2, or potentially taking as many as warlock 9. That way the range attack is taken care of, and this character can be bard or druid and stick with support. I'm just not sure the warlock multiclass would be worth it for the paladin. How do you guys see the paladin multiclass? Overall stronger because of the warlock levels? Or slightly gimped?

This just screams Bard to me.

Is a bard any good at range attacks?

MaxWilson

2016-01-17, 03:18 AM

Okay, so I've checked out several of these classes. Bladesinger is cool, but it's a melee class, so I'm ruling that one out.

Small correction: Bladesinger isn't a melee class. It's still a wizard, and wizards are primarily ranged combatants. Furthermore, up until level 10 or so you're actually better off shooting a bow for 2x d8+DEX +sneak attack d6 than you are engaging in melee with a rapier.

You're responding positively to both Lore Bards and Land Druids, and a Rogue/Bladesinger is better at range than either of those. But Rogue/Abjuror and Rogue/Evoker are valid too if you prefer to just stay entirely out of melee range, or Rogue/Necromancer (amazingly strong at ranged combat, always have bodyguards), etc. The main thing is being a Rogue/Wizard so you can be as strong as a wizard and as safe as a rogue.

However, it sounds like you're most attracted to warlock. So I'd go Fighter 1 at first level (Defense style), followed by Fiendlock X thereafter. Be a variant human and take the Healer feat (unlimited pop-up heals, plus more substantial heals 1/short rest, as long as you buy enough healing kits). Take Booming Blade and Pact of the Tome (Shillelagh) to kill anything that's immune to your Eldritch Blast force damage. Vampiric Touch V is also amazingly fun, especially combined with Fiendlock temp HP. Con save from Fighter 1 is important for keeping your concentration, especially when separated from the Paladin, but when the Paladin is around (post-level 6) you'll be able to Vampiric Touch freely to restore your HP with essentially no fear of ever losing concentration. Remember that Vampiric Touch works better if the paladin can push the target prone first for you (using his own Hex + Extra Attack; see below on the attractions paladocks) and/or grapple him there. You and the paladin should both have AC 21, so you're essentially invulnerable to attack from whatever you have prone unless its attack bonus is at least +8, especially once you factor in the leached HP from Vampiric Touch.

As far as the paladin goes: my favorite paladin combination is Paladin of Devotion 9/Warlock 2/Wild Sorcerer 9, but any combination of Paladin/Warlock/Sorcerer is good. We could talk at length about cool tricks he can play, and synergies between the various classes, but the bottom line is that P/S/W is a fantastic gish, IMO one of the top two gishes in the game. If your paladin friend dips Warlock 2 he will not regret it--at least, not from a powergaming perspective. From a roleplaying perspective, making a deal with Cthulhu might definitely cause some regret down the line...

The short version is that Paladin 9 gives you smites like Wrathful Smite, healing spells like Aura of Vitality, and +CHA to saving throws; Warlock gives you a ranged attack, a spare invocation (could be Devil's Sight or Repelling Blast or whatever), Expeditious Retreat to run from what you can't kill and Hex for more effective grappling and some extra damage, and short rest spell slots to spend on Cure Wounds or Shield or Hex or Expeditious Retreat; Sorcerer gives you even more spell slots and awesome spells like Shield, Blur, Counterspell, Fireball, Enhance Ability, and Animate Object, and Quicken and Extend metamagics to double your action economy and double the effectiveness of Aura of Vitality (which is awesome even before you double it), and you either get extra HP and some resistances as a dragon sorcerer (boring, IMO) or awesome wild surges and free advantage on whatever you feel like (e.g. important Con saves) as a chaos mage (okay, wild sorcerer), and that advantage potentially recharges as soon as you cast a sorc spell (e.g. Shield)--ask your DM how he's going to run wild surges. For a tank, almost all of the "bad" wild surge results are actually good (e.g. Fireball on self is fine when you're surrounded by enemy mooks), and the really bad ones (turn into a potted plant) can be either Counterspelled by yourself or else you use Tides of Chaos on your saving throw against them. (If all else fails and you hit that 0.001% chance of disaster just when you can least afford it, you've got the other PC who can zip in, grab the potted plant, and Dimension Door back out. Having a partner is nice.)

Citan

2016-01-17, 09:00 AM

Hi!

All propositions before are valid ones. Especially any mix Sorcerer / Bard / Warlock / Paladin.

If you just want an easy build which complements the Vengeance Paladin, mixing Lore Bard and Favored Soul Sorcerer will do great.
Bard for skills, heal and debuff, Sorcerer for buff, offense and Twin metamagic.
Start Sorcerer, then Bard up to 6, then complete as you want. Sorcerer up to 6 if you want 2 weapon attacks, but not strictly required.

You can then Twin some nice buffs (like Haste > Paladin can sustain its Hunter's Mark, or Shield of Faith) to concentrate on while dropping offensive spells/cantrips, or twin non-concentration debuffs (Bestow Curse lvl5) for the hardest fights.

Cramming 3 levels of Tome Warlock somewhere will grant good offense cantrip and rituals (+ "free sorcerer points").

WIS Alternative : Ranger 2 + Cleric >=5 + Druid >=5.
You get nice buff and heal from Cleric, Spirit Guardians if you need to go into melee, and Conjure Animals (or greater) will mesh great with Paladin's Crusader Mantle.
Ranger 2 is just here in case you plan on using weapon attacks for mundane rounds, otherwise drop it entirely.

Levism84

2016-01-17, 12:13 PM

Problem with multiclassing a warlock who takes Pact of the Tome is it limits your access to rituals. Tome warlock has the most unrestricted access to rituals in the game since they can scribe rituals from ANY class. The trade off is you have to burn an invocation to do it (Book of Ancient Secrets), and you can only scribe rituals with a level equal to or less than 1/2 your WARLOCK level (rounded up). Since there aren't any 7th, 8th, or 9th level spells that can be used as rituals... yet, Book of Ancient Secrets caps out at 11th level warlock. However, front-loading multiclass levels delays the acquisition of each level of ritual spell you can cast, making it more and more likely when you gain access to a certain ritual, its will have slightly less utility for the encounters and scenarios you are facing. The same goes for many of the features of the warlock class and patron abilities.

On the plus side, eldritch blast (your ranged attack bread and butter cantrip) scales with character level. So long as you pick up the invocations Agonizing Blast, Eldritch Spear, and Repelling Blast, your EB is going to rock the socks off of anyone you come across (especially near ledges). Throw in Spell Sniper to give EB a range of 600 feet (also good for ignoring most cover) and you can pile on damage equivalent (almost) to an archery specialized fighter, except you get extra attacks before the fighter does.

Go Warlock!

SpawnOfMorbo

2016-01-17, 12:40 PM

What would be the best build to play for a 2-people group? One character is a polearm paladin going vengeance. Since he'll be weak on range attacks and AoEs, I figure maybe I should play those strengths, but I'm really not sure. Maybe it should also be a good healer...? Or maybe I need arcane? I really have no clue, I'm up for anything!

Light, Tempest, or Knowledge Cleric would do great here.

You guys will have great AC, great saves, and can reverse pretty much anything bad that happens. You will have decent range damage, or at least options that will make it where you can get in close.

If you want to make a bow user then War Cleric would be nice too, though their spells are very Paladin-ish.

Edit

Don't underestimate the power of Guiding Bolt, it is an excellent level 1 spell, 4d6 (+1d6/level), with the possibility of a crit. Plus gives advantage on a hit. This on a Light cleric and you are very competent at ranged combat. Range 120' base also helps.

Drackolus

2016-01-17, 01:07 PM

I would second lore bard. Basically if you want to do more than one thing, lore bard is your best bet. However, they offer almost no direct damage without using their magical secrets on blasting spells, and even if they do it will be weaker than everyone else. Grabbing a couple levels of warlock would alleviate this problem somewhat, as agonizing blast is cha based and does quite a bit of damage. The bard list does already contain some great control spells (dissonant whispers, suggestion/hold person, hypnotic pattern, compulsion/confusion, etc.), and the way cutting words works makes it good regardless of how many friends you have. And you can even grab haste with a magical secrets, which of course your paladin will love, and spiritual weapon, one of my favorite spells for a lore bard since they have less uses for their bonus action with cutting words being a better option for bardic inspiration. Couple that with those incredible skill checks - fun fact, initiative is a dexterity check wit no skill. Which means jack of all trades, bardic inspiration, cutting words(!) and peerless skill all work with it. Also, dispel magic, along with counterspell and telekenisis (requiring magical secrets) use skill checks.

range attack, AoE, full caster, and skill checks galore. Thunderwave and Shatter will carry you 'till 6, then it's your pick of the best spells in the game. Their biggest downside is that magical secrets lets them fill any role, but not all of them, and they have almost no inherent damage. Spell sniper or a two level warlock dip can alleviate that. I personally prefer to same-class magic initiate, since that's an additional casting of dissonant whispers and a free known spell. I also like to pick up ritual caster:wizard and the bard rituals that aren't on the wizard list for out of combat utility. Bards have access to a massive number of known spells.

grifter730

2016-01-17, 08:21 PM

I'm still looking into bards. I like how versatile they are, and the flavor can easily be made to fit, just learning about them a bit still.

Light, Tempest, or Knowledge Cleric would do great here.

I'll check them out. I'm actually extremely surprised that people mentioned druid, but no one mentioned cleric until now. I scrapped the idea of looking into them, but I guess I will.

Small correction: Bladesinger isn't a melee class. It's still a wizard, and wizards are primarily ranged combatants. Furthermore, up until level 10 or so you're actually better off shooting a bow for 2x d8+DEX +sneak attack d6 than you are engaging in melee with a rapier.

You're responding positively to both Lore Bards and Land Druids, and a Rogue/Bladesinger is better at range than either of those. But Rogue/Abjuror and Rogue/Evoker are valid too if you prefer to just stay entirely out of melee range, or Rogue/Necromancer (amazingly strong at ranged combat, always have bodyguards), etc. The main thing is being a Rogue/Wizard so you can be as strong as a wizard and as safe as a rogue.

Can you explain the tactic you use with the Rogue/Bladesinger combo? I wasn't opposed to the build, I only assumed it relies on melee, but I'm definitely open to the idea. I don't understand how the rogue levels would be utilized though.

Would I be attacking with a weapon (bow? crossbow?) or would I rely on spells? And since we're on the subject, I see a lot of comments where the range attacks rely on spells, so I'm wondering, do casters not run out of spells in 5e? I realize they have their cantrips to fall back on, but relying on higher level spells seems like it's such a limited thing (as opposed to relying on a weapon like bow/crossbow).

Nifft

2016-01-17, 08:42 PM

I love how so many classes are suitable suggestions in this edition.

I was going to talk about Bards, but someone already said a bunch of good stuff.

SpawnOfMorbo

2016-01-17, 09:01 PM

I'll check them out. I'm actually extremely surprised that people mentioned druid, but no one mentioned cleric until now. I scrapped the idea of looking into them, but I guess I will.

In 5e there is rarely a time when "pick cleric" isn't a good answer. It may not always be the answer you want, but it will typically be a good answer.

A Dex/Con/Wis cleric in light or medium armor (depending on your dex) is a straight up beast no matter how you want to play it.

If you don't want to use a bow or a finesse weapon then you can easily go heavy armor and RBW (really big weapon).

Just remember that Spiritual Weapon is not concentration, guiding bolt is awesome, and spirit guardians are your friends... All spells from the main cleric list. Pick a domain that has the extra spells and features that really define your character.

The cleric people typically regard as the weakest (non-life), is the Trickery cleric and I've seen them wreck encounters just fine (urchin background, hide with action, have spiritual weapon up and using as a bonus action, have bless on your allies).

Spiritual Weapon not being concentration, and just a bonus action to use, is fantastic.

8wGremlin

2016-01-17, 09:16 PM

Why not try an Arcane domain Cleric -

Human variant, Standard Array: 16 Wis, 14 Dex, 14 Con
8 hp/level, Medium Armour (breastplate or half plate when you can afford it) with shield and Dex = AC: 18 (hard to hit)

Cleric - Arcane domain, some good spells.
Pick up Firebolt and Green Flame Blade (GFB) - This covers melee and ranged combat

Feat: Magic Initiate Druid (Goodberry, Shillelagh, +1 other ) - With Shillelagh you now attack off of you Wis modifier - take a club that looks like something cool - does 1d8 damage, and is magical

First round of Melee goes:
Bonus action: Shillelagh
Move to attack range
Action: GFB - hit target and secondary target takes some damage.

Skills: Insight, Religion, Arcana, Athletics, Survival, Perception (Wis based skills will be high)
Background: OUTLANDER - keep you and your paladin friend fed, and you'll not get lost.

Plus you're a Cleric with all the normal clerical goodness...

SpawnOfMorbo

2016-01-17, 09:26 PM

MaxWilson

2016-01-17, 10:50 PM

Can you explain the tactic you use with the Rogue/Bladesinger combo? I wasn't opposed to the build, I only assumed it relies on melee, but I'm definitely open to the idea. I don't understand how the rogue levels would be utilized though.

Would I be attacking with a weapon (bow? crossbow?) or would I rely on spells? And since we're on the subject, I see a lot of comments where the range attacks rely on spells, so I'm wondering, do casters not run out of spells in 5e? I realize they have their cantrips to fall back on, but relying on higher level spells seems like it's such a limited thing (as opposed to relying on a weapon like bow/crossbow).

Rogue/Wizard will rely primarily on Cunning Action (Dash or Hide) to stay safe. In open areas, Dash will keep you out of range of most monster attacks and special abilities; in cluttered tunnels, etc., Hide + Stealth Expertise will do the same. (You can also do something like 1st level Fog Cloud + Cunning Action (Hide).) If you're hidden (i.e. beat the monster's Perception) it is almost impossible for the monster to effectively damage you because it has to guess where you are--but check with your DM and find out how he runs Stealth before committing to that model.

Bladesinger adds another layer of defense on top of Cunning Action, because it makes you about as tough to hit in melee as a fighter (AC 19 or 20 easily), and that could come in handy because with only one other PC you don't have much of a front line and can't always assume that you won't be flanked. It's not that you're trying to get into melee, it's that if you do get into melee (or get hit by an AoE attack, etc.) you can do something other than panic and disengage, like a normal wizard would--you can instead e.g. activate Vampiric Touch and commence sucking the life out of your enemies. It's probably not as powerful as some other combos like Rogue/Necromancer, but Rogue/Bladesinger a fun class combo that I've played around with some and am in the mood to play with some more.

As a wizard, you'll have a lot of different attack options (everything from Polymorphing into a Giant Ape and throwing giant boulders at everything, to Mass Suggestion "I pay better than your boss; join me and help me kill him and take his treasure" to turn enemies into hirelings), but if you want a bit of tactical advice, my most frequent primary attacks would be:

1.) Crowd-control spells like Evard's Black Tentacles, Web, etc., to ensure that you and your paladin buddy will have the upper hand in encounters;
2.) Pew-pew with a longbow (18 to 20ish damage including sneak attack die by 8th level);
3.) Pew-pew with attack cantrips like Chill Touch for special enemies (prevent regeneration, etc.) (11ish damage by 6th level, up to 22ish damage by 17th level);
4.) Melee cantrips like Booming Blade followed by Cunning Action (Disengage) (25ish damage by 8th level, 50ish damage by 17th level); also have a look at Thunderwave or Sword Burst for at-will AoE damage;
5.) Occasional AoE attacks like Fireball and/or Chain Lightning against clusters of enemies at range.

Your at-will ranged damage is far inferior to a warlock (hopefully the paladin will dip warlock 2) but your overall ranged options are quite good, and that's before you start doing wizard stuff like summoning and Planar Binding Air Elementals.

Again, Bladesinger isn't the essential part of this build (the essential part is the core Wizard), but it does mitigate some of a regular wizard's worst vulnerabilities like vulnerability to melee, which would seem likely to negatively impact any other wizard in a party of only two. But it does overlap some with Rogue 2, which also provides defensive options, and so I can imagine a Rogue 2/Necromancer X or Illusionist X having about as much fun as the Bladesinger at the table, just in a slightly different way.

Skylivedk

2016-01-19, 03:07 PM

Drawing on how useful our Bard/Sorc has been so far, I'd give that a go.. He's only bard lvl 1 to gain healing word and bardic inspiration, but you can easily argue that Song of Rest and Jack of All Trades are worth the second bump. In our party the Bard 1 / Sorc X (Gold Dragon).

He's party face, twin spell is super value, AoEs often, and Inspiring Leader is golden (but more so in our 4-man group).

....

Or: Light Cleric (good blaster cleric, and covering some much lacking mental stats). Preferably (Hill) Dwarf/Half-Elf/Stout Halfling, finesse based (even though it hurts me to say so)

Or: Life Cleric 1 / Wiz X. This is close to maxing your utility. You'd not look like a caster in your heavy armour, and combined with shield, you'd be very, very hard to kill. With 13 wisdom you can do the dual-classing and you basically only need healing word to get your pally buddy back on his feet when he drops. The high int-score from your wizard should be game winning (at least if you are good at scheming yourself). Personally, my parties, as a player, have mostly died due to lack of wisdom (being bad at taking decisions under pressure is worse than having a small HP-pool) or low int (bad planning leaves you in bad standing).

Or: Moon druid (if you can get around not being good at ranged combat).

Basically healing word is the must-have spell (can't count the number of lives saved with that beauty) due to how death saves work (few things kill you outright and any healing resets your death saves).

CaptAl

2016-01-19, 05:17 PM

I'll throw my hat in for Lore Bard as well. Decent healing, debuffing via Vicious Mockery, and Magical Secrets to fill in whatever you need to cherry pick and improve. All around most versatile single class in the PHB. You won't be an uber damage dealer, but you'll make your Pally buddy look like an absolute god while pulling the strings of reality from behind him. Pick Half-Elf as your race, get a 16 Dex and Cha, choose the elven weapon proficiency at creation and use a Long Bow for at will damage.

MaxWilson

2016-01-19, 05:51 PM

Hudsonian

2016-01-19, 06:26 PM

Everybody else's suggestions are probably better mechanically, but I kind of like the idea of two Paladin's against the world. Very different personalities and choice of weapons, but joint in purpose. Maybe one is simply along to make sure that the other does not stray too far from the holy path. I don't know much about Pallys mechanically, but I think it sounds like a good story.

It also seems to me like it might fill your needs. (Except full caster, but that seems like a weak requirement to me)

ZenBear

2016-01-19, 07:32 PM

I will throw my vote in for Lore Bard or Rogue/Arcane Trickster.

Lore Bard is the stronger option due to 9th level spells but in my opinion AT is the better fit. The Paladin can handle all your social situations, while the AT can build INT and DEX for knowledge and burglary. Keeping 6+ level spells out of the game also keeps your Paladin buddy feeling strong and allows for a more low-fantasy feel to the game. Make it an Egil and Nix type of story, two scoundrels taking on the world, watching each other's backs and covering each other's weaknesses.

Your ranged damage will be strong but you will struggle against large groups due to lack of AoE. Talk to your DM about this weakness; it's not a bad thing to have a weakness that the DM can leverage to guide the story in a more dramatic direction, rather than the party expecting to be able to win every fight they come across.

RaynorReynolds

2016-01-19, 08:33 PM

What about Tempest Cleric 6 / Sorcerer 14? That definitely has everything you are looking for. It might be a little lacking in consistent powerful ranged attacks.

Skylivedk

2016-01-19, 08:44 PM

I just wanted to point out, since you mentioned Lore Bards, that Lore Bards can steal Aura of Vitality at 6th level. Not only is it the most efficient healing spell in the entire game, but if you activate it during combat it essentially gives you free Healing Words every round for a minute.

True.

Personally I'm more enamoured by the cleric/wizard, but I'm also a huge fan of having your mental stats covered.

My last two parties have sorely lacked a high int character (and the last party that did have one, did some pretty crazy things).

Lore bard is really solid. You might end up feeling very much like you're the supporting cast though