Potential gaping plotholes forming

[rajualf]

There seems to be 2 major plotholes forming up in the latest OOTS strips (#1018).

1. Roy has been awarded a bodyguard status, so he should be protected by the rules of the conclave. Therefore all clerics should unanimously attack the vampires, who are violating the non-aggression agreement.

2. It is daytime, so all the vampires should be suffering from the effects of sunlight, except Durkon, who is protected by his special spell, and maybe his new best friend, upon who he may bestowed the same spell.

There are of course still plenty of ways to plug these plotholes, or explain them away. I'm just bringing them up in case the esteemed author has somehow missed them. Or maybe I have missed something?

I'm also kind of expecting that these apparent plotholes are there just to raise this kind of questions, and that there is some ingenious explanation or plot twist around the corner that will address them in some surprising and satisfying way. After all, mr. Rick Burlew is a genius storyteller, and OOTS is a timeless classic in the making, and it has had similar apparent contradictions before, all beautifully handler, later.

[Emperordaniel]

1. Roy has been awarded a bodyguard status, so he should be protected by the rules of the conclave. Therefore all clerics should unanimously attack the vampires, who are violating the non-aggression agreement.

2. It is daytime, so all the vampires should be suffering from the effects of sunlight, except Durkon, who is protected by his special spell, and maybe his new best friend, upon who he may bestowed the same spell.

1) The agreement is for the protection of the clerics, not the bodyguards. As long as the vampires don't attack one of the high priests, they should be fine, relatively speaking.

2) Is there any reason why Phyrnglsnyx wouldn't have used the Protection from Daylight spell on all the the other vampires, but would have used it on the vampire inhabiting Gontor's body? :smallconfused:

[Quild]

Where is it stated that the bodyguards are protected by the rules of the conclave?

There's a fair chance that being indoors protects from sunlight.

[Dr.Zero]

Where is it stated that the bodyguards are protected by the rules of the conclave?


It is heavily implied (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html). Moreover, if the bodyguards were fair game, I suppose a mess like this would happen every single godsmoot ("Bodyguards of Thor? I'm the HPo(Loki or whatever) and I'm protected from the rules and you are not, Bwhahaha! Die! Flamestrike!")

Anyway it is worth to point out that at the moment the vampires have not attacked Roy, from what we can see.
Only run toward him. Past him, too.

Of course, they should be destroyed for the rule of "Only 1 HP and 2 BD", or at least the church of Hel expelled, since it has violated a rule. But whatever. Anyway this is another point.

[Pyrous]

The bodyguards may be protected from attacks from other attendees. These vampires are not attendees, and are members of the Church of Hel. An internal church dispute won't force other attendees to attack the vampires, but won't protect them either. Also, I didn't see any vampire attack Roy besides Phyrnglsnyx.

[Rift_Wolf]

2) isn't really a plot hole. They're inside, and even if they're not, it's not unreasonable to assume Phyrnglsnyx went all out with his staff charges; he expected the world to end in ten minutes. (or had a Gontor do that job, seeing as Phyrnglsnyx was needed elsewhere)

[Deliverance]

There seems to be 2 major plotholes forming up in the latest OOTS strips (#1018).

1. Roy has been awarded a bodyguard status, so he should be protected by the rules of the conclave. Therefore all clerics should unanimously attack the vampires, who are violating the non-aggression agreement.

1. We have no idea which rules protect the bodyguards.
2. We have no idea which rules protects somebody who was appointed a bodyguard, whose high priest has stepped down and appointed another high priest. Is Roy even still an officially sanctioned bodyguard by this point? Is this something that the conclave even has rules for?
3. Irrespective of the answers to #1 and #2, is is ROY who is attacking the vampires, not the vampires who are attacking Roy: Your entire line of speculation relies on a false premise.



2. It is daytime, so all the vampires should be suffering from the effects of sunlight, except Durkon, who is protected by his special spell, and maybe his new best friend, upon who he may bestowed the same spell.

4. Does being inside a cathedral that is at least partially illuminated by sunlight shining through windows count as being exposed to "direct sunlight?" Well, perhaps it does. I don't recall. Irrespective of this, however, the next point renders the answer to this question utterly irrelevant.
5. Given that Durkon has Malack's staff, which apart from swift-vampirization is also able to cast the Protection from Sunlight spell at an expenditure of charges (Nale throwing away Malacks staff due to this ability was a pretty important plot point in the destruction of Malack, as you may recall), I am not certain why you consider this a problem.

[hroþila]

It's quite possible that, as per Durkon's resignation, Roy no longer is a bodyguard. In fact, I bet on it. Regardless, so far no vampire has attacked Roy.

People throw the word "plothole" a lot (even more sensationalist, "gaping plothole"!).

[Ruck]

Why don't you just wait for Rich to tell the story instead of imagining up potential plot holes?

Is there anything in The Order of the Stick to date that suggests "gaping plotholes" are anything readers should seriously worry about?

[archon_huskie]

go to the dictionary, look up plothole.

See that plothole refers to something that directly contradicts what has already been established.

What you have listed are not plotholes .

[Douglas]

2. It is daytime, so all the vampires should be suffering from the effects of sunlight, except Durkon, who is protected by his special spell, and maybe his new best friend, upon who he may bestowed the same spell.
Each and every one of these vampires was raised with the InstaVamp spell to skip the three day waiting period, otherwise they wouldn't be up and moving yet. That means that Malack's Staff of Rare Spells was present and available when they were created, and that staff also contains Protection from Daylight. Thus, it is trivially possible for all the vampires to have Protection from Daylight right now.

[Pyron]

Roy has been awarded a bodyguard status, so he should be protected by the rules of the conclave. Therefore all clerics should unanimously attack the vampires, who are violating the non-aggression agreement.

If Roy is still a bodyguard, then you're right the other clerics should all attack the gang of vampires. However, the cleric assembly are not a collection of automatons that follow the Moot's rules like a computer program. They are people with their own thoughts and opinions as they watch this conflict, and they will act accordingly. They're free to pick whatever side they choose, and they're free to tiptoe around the Godsmoot rules to support their favored side. As far as I'm concern, this is just another internal dispute with the church of Hel.

So, this is not a plot hole. Even if the horde broke the rules of Godsmoot, the pro-destruction clerics not dusting them is not a plot hole. Even if the clerics violated the rules themselves and attacked each other, I still wouldn't call that a plothole.

[Malfarian]

There seems to be 2 major plotholes forming up in the latest OOTS strips (#1018).

1. Roy has been awarded a bodyguard status, so he should be protected by the rules of the conclave. Therefore all clerics should unanimously attack the vampires, who are violating the non-aggression agreement.

2. It is daytime, so all the vampires should be suffering from the effects of sunlight, except Durkon, who is protected by his special spell, and maybe his new best friend, upon who he may bestowed the same spell.

There are of course still plenty of ways to plug these plotholes, or explain them away. I'm just bringing them up in case the esteemed author has somehow missed them. Or maybe I have missed something?

I'm also kind of expecting that these apparent plotholes are there just to raise this kind of questions, and that there is some ingenious explanation or plot twist around the corner that will address them in some surprising and satisfying way. After all, mr. Rick Burlew is a genius storyteller, and OOTS is a timeless classic in the making, and it has had similar apparent contradictions before, all beautifully handler, later.

I think this godsmoot is 100% AMAZING and is totally worthy of a REAL LIFE session. Convoluted rules, people abusing the hell out of them. This is reminiscent of my old game sessions where my players were pulling their hair out screaming NO that's totally screwed up. They always thought it was unrealistic, etc, later on as we all got older and they saw how real politics worked, they now react the same way.

Roy is a Bodyguard of Hel's Church, this is an internal matter in terms of the rules. Should the rules state NO violence at all? maybe, but what happens when you respond to an act of violence? Lawful sucks sometimes!.

Mal

[goodpeople25]

I have to Repeat what others have pointed out.
What aggression?
There's perceived aggression yes, but if that was a valid excuse for ruled deadly force well... (don't think i can say more)
The other clerics can attack/protect the vampires cause they choose to, cause the vampires have no protection but there is no obligation involved.
Not one of these vampires has attacked anyone outside of "Durkon" (and that wasn't a violation at the time) the new HPoH said you know what to do then they charged in the diriection of Roy who happened to be standing in front of a certain other vampire inside an antilife shell, and Roy Attacked those who were running into his space but no proof of anything but just wanting to get past him, and at the end one vamp just walks in the shell.

Also your apparent definition of plot hole is interesting.

Seems like the new incorrectly used word of the day (well more like month, months, maybe a year hard to tell, you get the idea) anyway, like deus ex machina, filler, ect, not saying anyone who uses it has bad intentions but osmosis is a thing.
Any bets on what the next one will be?

[Pyrous]

Also your apparent definition of plot hole is interesting.

Seems like the new incorrectly used word of the day (well more like month, months, maybe a year hard to tell, you get the idea) anyway, like deus ex machina, filler, ect, not saying anyone who uses it has bad intentions but osmosis is a thing.
Any bets on what the next one will be?

I'll bet on some deus ex complaints for Belkar's next fight, then filler for the pets v. pest situation in the Mechane, with some more deus ex, then durkon filler with plotholes. You now what, add some plotholes on the pet stuff, and a deus ex machina on the durkon filler.

[goodpeople25]

I'll bet on some deus ex complaints for Belkar's next fight, then filler for the pets v. pest situation in the Mechane, with some more deus ex, then durkon filler with plotholes. You now what, add some plotholes on the pet stuff, and a deus ex machina on the durkon filler.

Well i meant more on an arc/longer term basis, like a previous section of comic basically had filler complaints up the wazzo on every single strip not completely on the main plot. And deus ex machina complaints seemed far more common at certain points of time then others.

[Rift_Wolf]

Any bets on what the next one will be?

5 English pounds on 'meta'!

[goodpeople25]

5 English pounds on 'meta'!
Oh nice one, i could see that happening.

Though this might be getting a tad off topic, move this to PM i guess? i'm not sure it warrants a thread.

[Emperordaniel]

This thread is now deus ex machina filler. :P

[137beth]

Any strip that isn't about Trigak is filler, and possibly a dues ex machine, too.

[unbeliever536]

It is heavily implied (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html).

Read the comic you cited. Roy explicitly says "[T]he woman with the morningstar is the only one protected by your ... rules".

The other clerics choose to buff the vampires because they, for whatever reason, think their gods' votes are correct. Note that the High Priest of Sunna is not required to buff vampires (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html) and is instead destroying them.

[wumpus]

Just why in the world would anyone bother slotting "protection from light", anyway? Are their already undead clerics at the moot (a reasonable possibility: Malack was presumably pretty high level cleric. It wouldn't be too much of a surprise if the High Priest of Nergal is a hastily-promoted replacement.)?

If they can't cover everybody, (or even if they can. Cleric ranged fighting is pretty sad). I'd expect stuck using a ranged weapon to try an int check. Anyone who makes it will target the MootCathedral's (TM) windows instead of the vampires. Sadly, few clerics will make it (while maxing wis is fine and dandy, pretty much all the other stats should come in hand, especially at low levels needed to get to High Priest of the God of Bloody Noses).

[Bulldog Psion]

Not one vampire is currently attacking Roy, or any priest. Not one. "Running and making funny noises" is presumably not an attack under any sane legal jurisdiction. :smallwink:

Secondly, being indoors probably protects the vampires. And if Lurky made, say, 13 vampires in total, and each "quick vamping" cost one charge, and each "protection from daylight" cost one charge, that would be 26 charges. Staves, IIRC, hold 50 charges; as long as Malack and Lurky used a maximum of 24 charges before this scene, the math still works fine.

Since the vampires aren't burning up in the sun, I'd say that it's proven that Malack and Lurky used 24 or less charges before this scene. There is no "plot hole" unless one is deliberately manufactured in contravention of what's shown in the comic.

(This reminds me a bit of seeing someone in a movie with a rifle that holds 20 shots in its magazine, and the person fires 11 shots on-screen, and then a viewer says "There's a huge plot hole! They must have fired more than 9 shots off-screen and so they fired more than 20 shots!" Even though the most parsimonious explanation is that they had 11+ rounds left in the magazine, and there is no plot hole.)

TL:DR version: There are no plot holes here. Even remotely.

[Dr.Zero]

Not one vampire is currently attacking Roy, or any priest. Not one. "Running and making funny noises" is presumably not an attack under any sane legal jurisdiction. :smallwink:

On a totally unrelated, side note, AFAIK the self defence in most countries is usually defined upon a "reasonable fear for your own safety".

This means that a big group running toward you with apparent warring intentions, should be enough to trigger it and permit you to kick their asses. Of course you will be put under trial, but you have a (theoretically high, practically depending on the mood and political ideas of judge and jury) chance to get out free, if their intentions could be easily mistaken as an attack.

This, of course, makes sense, because if you have to check if they are attacking or only bluffing before to defend yourself, you could end up dead. So, if they bluffed, their fault. ;)

Again, not related, just speaking of real life. :)

[Bulldog Psion]

On a totally unrelated, side note, AFAIK the self defence in most countries is usually defined upon a "reasonable fear for your own safety".

This means that a big group running toward you with apparent warring intentions, should be enough to trigger it and permit you to kick their asses.

True; I guess if a group of beefy armed people were running at at individual, shouting, "Kill! Kill!" then that individual would probably be within their rights to defend themselves with force if they couldn't reasonably escape.

Waiting to see if they just ran past would be a probably fatal error. :smallbiggrin:

[Ganbatte]

{Scrubbed}

[Legato Endless]

There are of course still plenty of ways to plug these plotholes, or explain them away. I'm just bringing them up in case the esteemed author has somehow missed them.

Ah. Very considerate.


I'm also kind of expecting that these apparent plotholes are there just to raise this kind of questions, and that there is some ingenious explanation or plot twist around the corner that will address them in some surprising and satisfying way.

Really? Do you have any other examples of this stylistic inclination by the author?


After all, mr. Rick Burlew is a genius storyteller, and OOTS is a timeless classic in the making, and it has had similar apparent contradictions before, all beautifully handler, later.

Then this story must have touched you quite deeply. Please elaborate.

[hroþila]

{Scrubbed}
How the hell do you get that from my post? Do you mean the things the OP mentioned were, indeed, plotholes?

[Ruck]

{Scrubbed}

[FrankNorman]

Speaking of plot-holes - I thought a vampire wasn't allowed to enter a building without being invited?
So what's Durkula's plan for getting around that?

[Legato Endless]

Speaking of plot-holes - I thought a vampire wasn't allowed to enter a building without being invited?
So what's Durkula's plan for getting around that?

Was that ever confirmed to apply to Oots? Also, even if it did, it's only private buildings which require an invite. If the council leaders are out doing state craft in public buildings, that wouldn't apply either.

[Pyrous]

Speaking of plot-holes - I thought a vampire wasn't allowed to enter a building without being invited?
So what's Durkula's plan for getting around that?

Only if the building is not a public place. In that case I think his Dominate ability could help.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Speaking of plot-holes - I thought a vampire wasn't allowed to enter a building without being invited?
So what's Durkula's plan for getting around that?

"You may enter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html)"

Grey Wolf

[Kilremgor]

The true plot hole is different.

Roy is a bodyguard of priest of Hel, and likely retains that status (there's no indication otherwise, and if it wasn't the case, former-HPoH could've just told priests of evil gods to kill the now-unprotected Roy).

There is likely no way for priest to dismiss their bodyguard, since otherwise HPoH would've used it (thus making Roy fair game and avoiding all the fighting and vampire losses).

It is already established in-comic that bodyguard can attack "his" priest.

Conclusion: Roy can now just destroy new-HPoH, and Hel's vote is nullified. Of course, new-HPoH may perhaps use spells to delay the fighting, but given there are no more vampires and no escape available, Roy can eventually destroy new-HPoH given ample time he has (just pick up a missile weapon and whittle down new-HPoH).

The only way to avoid this is to imply that either Roy is no longer a bodyguard or bodyguards can be dismissed, and both mean that former-HPoH failed to use them to get Roy killed.

[Mike Havran]

The true plot hole is different.

Roy is a bodyguard of priest of Hel, and likely retains that status (there's no indication otherwise, and if it wasn't the case, former-HPoH could've just told priests of evil gods to kill the now-unprotected Roy).

There is likely no way for priest to dismiss their bodyguard, since otherwise HPoH would've used it (thus making Roy fair game and avoiding all the fighting and vampire losses).

It is already established in-comic that bodyguard can attack "his" priest.

Conclusion: Roy can now just destroy new-HPoH, and Hel's vote is nullified. Of course, new-HPoH may perhaps use spells to delay the fighting, but given there are no more vampires and no escape available, Roy can eventually destroy new-HPoH given ample time he has (just pick up a missile weapon and whittle down new-HPoH).

The only way to avoid this is to imply that either Roy is no longer a bodyguard or bodyguards can be dismissed, and both mean that former-HPoH failed to use them to get Roy killed.This. Also, Any High Priest opposed to Hel with Sending prepared can warn dwarven nations to take precautions against an immediate vampire threat and Mind-control.

[Legato Endless]

The new HPoH can just float out of Roy's reach as mist.

[Kilremgor]

The new HPoH can just float out of Roy's reach as mist.

Gaseous form doesn't negate damage, it would still be roughly the same 10/magic DR that Roy can eventually beat. Leaving the room nullifies the vote, and being in the room would mean being subject to thrown / missile weapons.

New-HPoH will need to survive hours until the 'mind controlling elders' plan is completed, and during all those hours, Roy can find a way to resolve the problem of gaseous form (there are many ways this could be done).

Former-HPoH's survival strategy was valid because it had to work for few minutes at most; having the same strategy work for hours won't do, esp. given that hours allow usage of various tactics that bring sunlight or running water into the room.

However, since that survival is such an obvious problem with Hel's plan, I guess there's some external circumstance that would force Roy to quickly leave the Godsmoot, since otherwise it's hard to believe that he can't come up with a plan to destroy a vampire given few hours.

[Porthos]

The only way to avoid this is to imply that either Roy is no longer a bodyguard or bodyguards can be dismissed, and both mean that former-HPoH failed to use them to get Roy killed.

It's not a plot hole if "Durkon" wanted to kill Roy himself. In fact, it seems to me that the comic goes out of its way to show just how much "Durkon" relishes being able to finally kill Roy.

It would only have been a plot hole if one can demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that Roy would have kept attacking "Durkon" after being fired. Maybe he would have; maybe not. But as the comic transpired, there is no plot hole. Not if character motivations are taken into account.


However, since that survival is such an obvious problem with Hel's plan, I guess there's some external circumstance that would force Roy to quickly leave the Godsmoot, since otherwise it's hard to believe that he can't come up with a plan to destroy a vampire given few hours.

Dealing with "Durkon", presumably. Especially if he is fired as a bodyguard/being a bodyguard doesn't transfer automatically and can't attack the new High Priestess. In fact, I rather suspect Roy will be all too willing to deal with "Durkon", considering how pissed off he is about the whole situation.

[Ganbatte]

It's not a plot hole if "Durkon" wanted to kill Roy himself. In fact, it seems to me that the comic goes out of its way to show just how much "Durkon" relishes being able to finally kill Roy.

Actually it doesn't, the comic shows that killing Roy was just a preferred outcome "Durkon" would have liked to get but doesn't really care one way or the other so long as Hel's plan works. There's no indication that he wants Roy dead so much as to legitimately put the plan to risk and it's more like something an evil creature would enjoy (killing a former companion) but which is not even in the Top Three important things to do that day.


It would only have been a plot hole if one can demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that Roy would have kept attacking "Durkon" after being fired. Maybe he would have; maybe not. But as the comic transpired, there is no plot hole. Not if character motivations are taken into account.
Why wouldn't he attack Durkon? And if he didn't, why didn't Durkon just fire him right there then? :smallconfused:
This makes little sense to me.

[Porthos]

Actually it doesn't, the comic shows that killing Roy was just a preferred outcome "Durkon" would have liked to get but doesn't really care one way or the other so long as Hel's plan works. There's no indication that he wants Roy dead so much as to legitimately put the plan to risk and it's more like something an evil creature would enjoy (killing a former companion) but which is not even in the Top Three important things to do that day.

"I probably should just turn to mist and float out of your reach until time's up. But I'm just so tired of watching your self-righteous face all the time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html)

"Missteps aside, I was hoping to knock Roy off the board in case we needed the next phase." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1011.html)

And while it's not quite the same thing, the whole "cause misery to others because I can" is elaborated here: "Uh, I'm a vampire. Letting something appear organic when it's really a cruel unnatural charade is kinda my whole thing". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html)

Futhermore, given his comments with Durkon about , it doesn't seem much of a stretch at all to say that "Durkon" doesn't like



Why wouldn't he attack Durkon?

Because [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html]Roy specifically asks about the bodyguard loophole beforehand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html
self-righteous comebacks[/url).

Would he have kept attacking after being fired (if he could be fired)? I'd say it's a reasonable question to answer, given that this loophole that allowed him to attack was frontmost in his mind.

Sure, "heat of battle". But Roy has shown a remarkable ability to turn on a dime when needed. After all, Roy had enough presence of mind to tell all of the priests assembled that, hey, there is a vampire here that isn't protected by your silly rules. This shows that even after rounds and rounds of fighting, he was still thinking about those rules and how they worked.

And if he didn't, why didn't Durkon just fire him right there then? :smallconfused:

IMO, because he thought he had the vote won, so why not play with his food a bit. He had the backup plan in place as well, in case the vote went south unexpectedly. And, as linked, "Durkon" felt Roy was a danger to his backup plan. So better to kill him here and now, just in case.

Plus, this is how he gets his kicks. He got to psychologically torment Roy for fun and prophet.

And he was probably egotistical enough to think he could easily take out Roy. It's not like he didn't have a trump card waiting in the wings should the battle turn out to be a bit more even than he thought it would be (the anti-life shell). So he fought Roy with the expectation of killing him, thus removing a potential problem. AND he got to have a good time doing it. Not really sure what there is to be confused about.

===

Now maybe he couldn't fire Roy. All I am saying is that it was perfectly in character for "Durkon" not to care. Both from a practical standpoint (backup plan) and an emotional one.

[Bulldog Psion]

IMO, Roy is Lurky's bodyguard. Macey Shadows has no bodyguards.

[Ganbatte]

"I probably should just turn to mist and float out of your reach until time's up. But I'm just so tired of watching your self-righteous face all the time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html)

"Missteps aside, I was hoping to knock Roy off the board in case we needed the next phase." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1011.html)

And while it's not quite the same thing, the whole "cause misery to others because I can" is elaborated here: "Uh, I'm a vampire. Letting something appear organic when it's really a cruel unnatural charade is kinda my whole thing". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html)

Futhermore, given his comments with Durkon about [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html
self-righteous comebacks[/url], it doesn't seem much of a stretch at all to say that "Durkon" doesn't like

All I see is an evil vampire getting the fun of an easy kill on Durkon's friend while waiting for Hel's plan to finish. As soon as the warrior turned out stronger than he thought he immediately ditched the thing like it was nothing, no sign of anger or even frustration he couldn't kill him, just mild annoyance that he couldn't knock him off the board.
These strips do nothing to show that killing Roy was that much important to him.


Would he have kept attacking after being fired (if he could be fired)? I'd say it's a reasonable question to answer, given that this loophole that allowed him to attack was frontmost in his mind.

Sure, "heat of battle". But Roy has shown a remarkable ability to turn on a dime when needed. After all, Roy had enough presence of mind to tell all of the priests assembled that, hey, there is a vampire here that isn't protected by your silly rules. This shows that even after rounds and rounds of fighting, he was still thinking about those rules and how they worked.

Because the idiots above wouldn't move an inch if it was against the rules, not him. Bodyguard or not I don't see any way he would just go and be "Oh so I'm fired and no longer a bodyguard now, guess I'll just sit down this corner glaring at my friend's undead corpse".



IMO, because he thought he had the vote won, so why not play with his food a bit. He had the backup plan in place as well, in case the vote went south unexpectedly. And, as linked, "Durkon" felt Roy was a danger to his backup plan. So better to kill him here and now, just in case.

Plus, this is how he gets his kicks. He got to psychologically torment Roy for fun and prophet.

And he was probably egotistical enough to think he could easily take out Roy. It's not like he didn't have a trump card waiting in the wings should the battle turn out to be a bit more even than he thought it would be (the anti-life shell). So he fought Roy with the expectation of killing him, thus removing a potential problem. AND he got to have a good time doing it. Not really sure what there is to be confused about.

Why hide there if he could just fire him?
And if he couldn't, then Roy can now kill mace-girl. That's the point of this thread.

[Pyrous]

And he was probably egotistical enough to think he could easily take out Roy.


And he almost did. Twice.

If weren't for Wrecan's "SNEAK ATTACK FROM BEHIND", Roy would be dead. Dead, in this case, meaning vampire under his command.

Same thing if Durkula didn't botched his last domination attempt.

[goodpeople25]

This. Also, Any High Priest opposed to Hel with Sending prepared can warn dwarven nations to take precautions against an immediate vampire threat and Mind-control.
Perhaps, but there very well could be a rule against it. And since the attendees are sequestered for the purposes of not influencing the vote, it would hardly by surprising if sending or the like were forbidden or blocked entirely.

But I find it worthy of note that the No clerics are likely to do pretty much what the No gods were going for, let the order of the stick take a shot at it as their hands are tied. Now yes the dieties may have given more help through High priests but i always doubted that possibility (not that i thought it would happen anyway due to "durkon") thought it wouldn't happen due to objections from the Yes gods.

[Jasdoif]

Bodyguard or not I don't see any way he would just go and be "Oh so I'm fired and no longer a bodyguard now, guess I'll just sit down this corner glaring at my friend's undead corpse".Even if Roy could take down HPoH before getting put to death for attacking a representative, it'd still leave him out of position to fight Xykon.

[Bobb]

2. Is not a plot hole and I'm not sure why any vampire would walk into the sunlight without protection from sunlight so the criticism doesn't even make sense to me.


1. Is not a plot hole either but I share your frustration with not knowing any of the rules except that they are all taking care of the bad guy (probably not actually) and showing us that every "good guy" in the room is stupid except Roy and Wrecan. The Giant may have done that on purpose. (the more deviously the bad guy gets an upper hand the more enraged the reader gets)

[Ganbatte]

Perhaps, but there very well could be a rule against it. And since the attendees are sequestered for the purposes of not influencing the vote, it would hardly by surprising if sending or the like were forbidden or blocked entirely.

So Sending is out because that would be "influencing" but teleporting a bunch of vampires to dominate-cheat the last vote isn't? Huh.


Even if Roy could take down HPoH before getting put to death for attacking a representative, it'd still leave him out of position to fight Xykon.

It's bodyguards attacking a representative that get put to death, Roy would no longer be that after getting fired.
If stupid rules can be circumvented to play in Hel's favour than I can't see why the good guys couldn't do the same too.

[goodpeople25]

So Sending is out because that would be "influencing" but teleporting a bunch of vampires to dominate-cheat the last vote isn't? Huh.

It's bodyguards attacking a representative that get put to death, Roy would no longer be that after getting fired.
If stupid rules can be circumvented to play in Hel's favour than I can't see why the good guys couldn't do the same too.
The HPoH has nothing to do with that, that is the work of the Former HPoH. Loophole sure, but that's not the point.

And the Non-good guys would allow Roy to do so, why? And that is an assumption no outsiders have attacked a priest or even a bodyguard yet.

[Ganbatte]

The HPoH has nothing to do with that, that is the work of the Former HPoH. Loophole sure, but that's not the point.
It is actually, and it's too cheap of an excuse. You can't have Lawful Stupid Rule Adherence work only when in favour of the enemy and not when it benefits the heroes. Either all influences are banned or none.
Besides Durkula is still a priest of Hel and he was still High Priest when he stole the teleporting orb and created the cheaty vampires.


And the Non-good guys would allow Roy to do so, why? And that is an assumption no outsiders have attacked a priest or even a bodyguard yet.

Because the rule clearly says "bodyguard of other religions". This has nothing to do with them.
Again, either you apply the rules the same to everyone, or don't.

[Jasdoif]

It's bodyguards attacking a representative that get put to death, Roy would no longer be that after getting fired.
If stupid rules can be circumvented to play in Hel's favour than I can't see why the good guys couldn't do the same too.You really think Roy would bet on knowing all the rules when Roy doesn't know all the rules?


Because the rule clearly says "bodyguard of other religions". This has nothing to do with them.
Again, either you apply the rules the same to everyone, or don't.Hmm. What rule do you think "vampires who were ushers in life may be attacked when they rush in the general direction of someone who was a bodyguard at one point" stems from?

[Caractacus]

Any strip that isn't about Trigak is filler, and possibly a dues ex machine, too.

Trigak approves! :smallcool:

[brian 333]

This would absolutely be a good spot for The Giant to put in a filler strip. Roy could demonstrate the difficulty of throwing swords, or Haley could explain how she acquired more than one hotel on Park Place, or V could discuss the limitations of the empathic link to hir familiar... wait, maybe not V... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)

[King of Nowhere]

So Sending is out because that would be "influencing" but teleporting a bunch of vampires to dominate-cheat the last vote isn't? Huh.



Any account of this meeting is strictly prohibited without consent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0993.html). using a sending to telll other people that there are vampires trying to dominate the elders would certainly count as and account of the meeting. I suppose a consent would have to come from the assembled priests, and the clerics of the "yes" gods would certainly vote against that consent. So, problem solved.


If stupid rules can be circumvented to play in Hel's favour than I can't see why the good guys couldn't do the same too.

What makes you think the good guys are not circumventing the rules in their favour? We have roy attacking durkula, wrecan using his "sneak attack from behind", and the good clerics attacking the unrelated vampires. So everybody is abusing the rules to their advantage. Team hel is doing it better because they had prepared for this long before.

Anyway, people use the word "plot hole" inappropriately. If there are possible explanations, it is not a plot hole. If you can even start to think of an explanation, then it is not a plot hole. It is a plot hole only when there is an undeniable contradiction between stated facts. Example: during the pyramid scene, durkon states he didn't prepare dispel magic that day; later, durkula casts dispel magic. That's a genuine plot hole, although very minor.
It is not a plot hole if people who got surprised and are under great stress takes wrong decisions; if they are supposedly smart people and were not in a circumstance where their decision-making skill could be impaired, even then it would not be a plot hole, it would be a case of idiot-ball (which is not a good thing, but still, it's something different). Example: dorukan in his fight against xykon took many bad decisions, so there is some argument whether that is justified by him being under stress or if he picked up the idiot ball; but it certainly is not a plot hole.
And if the explanation instead requires some contrieved coincidence, then it's not a plot hole, it's a contrived coincidence. Any story is full of them, or there would be no story oterwise - even the real world is full of contrived coincidences anyway, simply for the law of big numbers, so stories tell about contrived coincidences because they are interesting. If a contrived coincidence is the only thing saving the day, it becomes a deus ex machina - or a diabolus ex machina if it ruins the day. Notice that a deus exx machina here and there is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the plot do not revolve entirely around them. Or, a deus ex machina may serve to introduce a new character, or to showcase something. As a rule of thumb, deus-ex are bad if they are at the end of the story, providing the resolution. Although there can be exceptions: the first mistborn book ended with a deus-ex machina, but it actually was a way to introduce plot elements from the third book.
If it instead involves a mistaken representation of a scientific phenomenon, it is a research mistake if the author was not aware of it, or an artistic licence if the author was aware of it.

EDIT: expanded a bit

[Kish]

So Sending is out because that would be "influencing" but teleporting a bunch of vampires to dominate-cheat the last vote isn't? Huh.
More likely, the representatives are specifically barred from attempting to influence the vote, but no one else is. The ex-High Priest of Hel can teleport out and Roy can go after him. Roy could also cast Sending, if, you know, Roy (or anyone else in the building who wasn't a representative) could cast Sending; if there was another priest of Thor in the building and the High Priest of Thor had Sending prepared, she could step down as High Priest of Thor and then cast Sending.

[Pyrous]

More likely, the representatives are specifically barred from attempting to influence the vote, but no one else is. The ex-High Priest of Hel can teleport out and Roy can go after him. Roy could also cast Sending, if, you know, Roy (or anyone else in the building who wasn't a representative) could cast Sending; if there was another priest of Thor in the building and the High Priest of Thor had Sending prepared, she could step down as High Priest of Thor and then cast Sending.

And as the fHPoH, she would be a valid target to HPs and BGs in the 10 minutes it takes to cast sending.

[King of Nowhere]

More likely, the representatives are specifically barred from attempting to influence the vote, but no one else is. The ex-High Priest of Hel can teleport out and Roy can go after him. Roy could also cast Sending, if, you know, Roy (or anyone else in the building who wasn't a representative) could cast Sending; if there was another priest of Thor in the building and the High Priest of Thor had Sending prepared, she could step down as High Priest of Thor and then cast Sending.

well, nothing stops V from casting sending once roy debrief the rest of the team on the ship.
except, to cast a sending you need to be know the target of the message, and since V does not know any important dwarf, there's nobody he can contact. It's like knowing a catastrophe is arriving and wanting to warn people and being unable because you don't have their phone numbers.
Thinking about that analogy, it's not like if an important dwarf get a sending from an unknown elf wizard he is likely to trust V or take him seriously. I wonder if they have sending spam? "sending from prince khalid of somewhere else: have huge fortune but cannot access it. Need money to bribe officiers. Give me money you'll be rewarded".

[Douglas]

I wonder if they have sending spam? "sending from prince khalid of somewhere else: have huge fortune but cannot access it. Need money to bribe officiers. Give me money you'll be rewarded".
Demand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/demand.htm) spam would be far more dangerous. Also much harder to pull off considering how high level it is, but eh. Still a frightening idea.