Dragons and Spellcasting (cleric spells)

[Xalik]

As we all know, dragons can cast spell as a sorcerer of a level appropriate to their age category. Furthermore, some can cast spells from the cleric list as arcane spells.

I wonder that does exactly this "as arcane spells" mean?

Consider an old red dragon, who can cast spells as a 11th level sorcerer, but can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells.

Does this imply that, when the dragon casts Augury (2nd level cleric spell), he has used one spell slot from his available spell slots as a sorcerer, since he cast that spell as an arcane spell?

Even more important, what about the maximum level of spell he can cast? An 11th level sorcerer has access to 5th level arcane spells. However, 11th level cleric has access to 6th level divine spells. Am I correct to assume that this old red dragon can cast 5th level cleric spells, but cannot cast 6th level cleric spells?

Since Heal is a 6th level cleric spell, this might be very important for the battle with dragon my party is about to start...

Thanks.

[Cosi]

Yes, they are Arcane. For example, if the Dragon was wearing full plate, augury would have a 35% chance to fail, just as flaming sphere would.

Yes, it uses Sorcerer spell lots to cast them

No, it doesn't get to use/learn spells based on the Cleric progression. A Dragon with 11th level casting gets 5th level Cleric spells, not 6th.

[Xalik]

Yes, they are Arcane. For example, if the Dragon was wearing full plate, augury would have a 35% chance to fail, just as flaming sphere would.

Yes, it uses Sorcerer spell lots to cast them

No, it doesn't get to use/learn spells based on the Cleric progression. A Dragon with 11th level casting gets 5th level Cleric spells, not 6th.

Thanks and thanks, and well, thanks :)

[WhamBamSam]

It means the dragon can learn those spells as if they were Sorcerer spells. They count against its Sorcerer spells known and expend spell slots. So the Red Dragon in your example would indeed have to spend a spell slot (and a spell known) on Augury, and would not be able to learn or cast spells of higher than 5th level off of the Cleric list.

Or at least that's what it's supposed to mean. It can potentially get screwy if the dragon has levels in other arcane spellcasting classes.

[DrMotives]

Or at least that's what it's supposed to mean. It can potentially get screwy if the dragon has levels in other arcane spellcasting classes.

Even then it's not hard. The sorcerer stuff is innate, and adding class levels of sorcerer or classes with +caster level applied to sorcerer casting improve that. All those cleric and domain spells are considered on the sorcerer list for that dragon in particular. If the dragon adds levels in other arcane classes, it follows to normal rules for those classes as any other character would, even if that class is wizard and would normally have the same list as sorcerer. Innate draconic casting is sorcerer only play, it's pretty simple.

[KillianHawkeye]

The one thing that is troublesome about this ability is that a lot of spells are available at different spell levels (or not at all) for different classes. Dispel Magic, for example, is a 4th level spell for Druids but a 3rd level spell for other classes. Hold Person is 2nd level for Bards and Clerics but 3rd level for Sorcerers and Wizards. Many, if not most spells on the Cleric's spell list do not normally appear at any level on the Sorcerer/Wizard list.

The easiest thing is to assume that the dragon gets the new Cleric spells at the same spell level they normally are, but the rules don't actually say how we're supposed to handle it. Can a dragon with access to Cleric spells learn Hold Person as a 2nd level spell? We don't even know.

[Kraken]

As far as I can tell, they'd be able to take hold person as both a second and third level spell, assuming they're willing to use up their spells known.

[KillianHawkeye]

As far as I can tell, they'd be able to take hold person as both a second and third level spell, assuming they're willing to use up their spells known.

I'm curious how you arrived at this conclusion. :smallconfused:

[Beheld]

I'm curious how you arrived at this conclusion. :smallconfused:

Because they can choose off both the Sorcerer list, and can choose any of their domain spells as a sorcerer spell of the level they are for that domain. So if any domain has it as a 2nd level spell, they can know it as both (but won't because that is dumb).

[Ruethgar]

Technically it just means that if they gain access to those spells they can cast them as arcane. So an Ancient Red with no class levels would have access to no extra spells than a normal sorcerer. But a Red Hatchling Cleric could cast any of the spells available to him on the Evil/Fire/Choas domain lists as Arcane instead of divine.

The intent appears to have been to give them more spells to choose from with their sorcerer spells known, but that was not the result from how it is worded.

[Âmesang]

A particular dragon doesn't need cleric levels to cast cleric/domain spells; see: spell-list of the example Young Adult Silver Dragon, p.88 of the Monster Manual. It has divine favor as a 1st-level spell and cure moderate wounds as a 2nd-level spell.

As an aside, there's the idea that the "new and unusual spells that (sorcerers/bards) have gained some understanding of" could be spells from any non-sorcerer/wizard or bard class spell list and, while I have no opinion one-way-or-the-other about its validity, I wonder if this was what was intended? Say, a humanoid sorcerer tracks down said Young Adult Silver Dragon and requests a cleric-turned-sorcerer spell scroll (like divine favor) in return for completing some special quest, at which point the humanoid sorcerer studies the scroll and learns the spell for himself?

[Ruethgar]

Just because it is in the example doesn't mean it is the appropriate application of the rules as they are written. WotC products are rife with inaccurate examples with the given rules. The new and unusual spells that Bards/Sorcs can get could qualify you access to them, but that is such an open ended section that it could go any which way.

[Âmesang]

Well in that same book the example Mature Adult Blue Dragon knows command, cure serious wounds, and shield of faith; the Very Old Red Dragon knows cure moderate wounds, divine favor, guidance, heal, restoration, and spell immunity; the Young Copper Dragon knows command; and the Adult Gold Dragon knows cure moderate wounds, searing light, and shield of faith.

In looking over their spell lists, I noticed that the 3.5 Very Old Red Dragon still knows the "very old" spells circle of doom, emotion, and protection from elements. Guess he never looked at the accessory update.

[Beheld]

Well in that same book the example Mature Adult Blue Dragon knows command, cure serious wounds, and shield of faith; the Very Old Red Dragon knows cure moderate wounds, divine favor, guidance, heal, restoration, and spell immunity; the Young Copper Dragon knows command; and the Adult Gold Dragon knows cure moderate wounds, searing light, and shield of faith.

In looking over their spell lists, I noticed that the 3.5 Very Old Red Dragon still knows the "very old" spells circle of doom, emotion, and protection from elements. Guess he never looked at the accessory update.

He's making a fiddly RAW argument. It's meaningless, we all know that the ability was meant to do something, we all know exactly what it was meant to do. He's just saying that pedantically they wrote things bad, which is fine, but who cares?

[Ruethgar]

He's making a fiddly RAW argument. It's meaningless, we all know that the ability was meant to do something, we all know exactly what it was meant to do. He's just saying that pedantically they wrote things bad, which is fine, but who cares?

By the nine divines! You dare speak such heresy against the almighty RAW in these RAWful halls?!

But in all seriousness, this is an instance in which RAI is clear as others have pointed out. I was merely pointing out what the rules actually say in case you or your DM is a stickler on the RAW.

[Âmesang]

I care! Now I get to laugh at Wizards for forgetting to proofread their 3.5 Very Old Red Dragon entry.

Seriously, circle of doom sounds so much cooler than mass inflict light wounds. Shame on them for changing it. :smalltongue:

[nedz]

A particular dragon doesn't need cleric levels to cast cleric/domain spells; see: spell-list of the example Young Adult Silver Dragon, p.88 of the Monster Manual. It has divine favor as a 1st-level spell and cure moderate wounds as a 2nd-level spell.

As an aside, there's the idea that the "new and unusual spells that (sorcerers/bards) have gained some understanding of" could be spells from any non-sorcerer/wizard or bard class spell list and, while I have no opinion one-way-or-the-other about its validity, I wonder if this was what was intended? Say, a humanoid sorcerer tracks down said Young Adult Silver Dragon and requests a cleric-turned-sorcerer spell scroll (like divine favor) in return for completing some special quest, at which point the humanoid sorcerer studies the scroll and learns the spell for himself?

That's not how sorcerers learn spells, but more interestingly this could explain what they meant by the following

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
Dragons after all are Sorcerers.

I've seen people query the meaning of this line, and even try to pull a few TO stunts with it, but it could just be a reference to this aspect of Dragons in MM ?