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Callix
2007-06-14, 04:47 AM
The idea is simple. An equal-level rogue, with blind-fight and a Horn of Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#hornofFog). Blow the horn. The cleric now cannot see you. Stop blowing the horn. The fog lasts 3 minutes. Sneak around. If you find the cleric, sneak attack, maybe with Throat Punch for extra cheese. If you don't, blow the horn for one round every 2.5 minutes. He can't find you. You can find him. Any anti-stealth ability you like won't work, because it's mundane hiding, and fog blocks LoS, even for true seeing. You truly see the fog.

Glorfindel
2007-06-14, 05:05 AM
The Czilla has probably spells to affect the wind (Control Winds, Control Weather). Summoning an Air Elemental might help as well.

Also, aren't there any AoE save-or-lose spells which don't require you to see the target? Blowing the horn makes noise, so you should at least have a hunch where the rogue is.

Songlander
2007-06-14, 05:07 AM
Sadly, your idea has a few flaws. For starters, the Horn of Fog creates a cloud "similar to that of an Obscuring Mist spell". The Obscuring Mist spell grants Concealment to any creature with 5' and Total Concealment to any creature further away.

Sadly for the rogue, Sneak Attack cannot be used against a creature with Concealment. In order to negate the cleric's Concealment, the rogue would have to enter the cleric's space, thus (in your scenario) denying himself the Concealment required to Hide from the cleric!

Dausuul
2007-06-14, 05:07 AM
The idea is simple. An equal-level rogue, with blind-fight and a Horn of Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#hornofFog). Blow the horn. The cleric now cannot see you. Stop blowing the horn. The fog lasts 3 minutes. Sneak around. If you find the cleric, sneak attack, maybe with Throat Punch for extra cheese. If you don't, blow the horn for one round every 2.5 minutes. He can't find you. You can find him. Any anti-stealth ability you like won't work, because it's mundane hiding, and fog blocks LoS, even for true seeing. You truly see the fog.

There are plenty of ways to stop Clericzilla. Clerics aren't invincible. The problem with Clericzilla is that not that he's invincible, it's that he's a better fighter than his fighter buddy of the same level, who is just as vulnerable (or not) to your foggy doom.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-14, 05:20 AM
Hi Dausuul,

your idea went already into the correct direction. However, the horn of fog creates a too small area to really matter, and the concealment effect is not total at close range. Better get an eversmoking bottle.
I once made a lvl 20 fighter archer build (and a lvl 12 fighter build in a tournament thread in this forum) who used the thing and it does provide some good cover vs casters of all kind.
Better than blind-fight (get also that, just in case, and it makes you faster in the smoke) is firing arrows with manyshot (and move silently afterwards so opponent casters with their rays and area spells cannot pinpoint you) with seeking ability (courtesy Darius).

Another nice side effect of the smoke (which spreads out to 100ft radius) is that it necessitates fortitude saves at one point or another (you may hold your breath for a while, though) or you choke and can't do anything in the round (the choking also makes it easy for the archer fighter to pinpoint an opponent. Of course the fighter will be protected from the smoke via a necklace of adaptation).

Another good thing is that a classic response to the smoke (gust of wind or even an air elemental) will only disperse the smoke for a while in 1 round. After they are gone, the smoke will pick up again (hence "EVERsmoking bottle" :smallbiggrin: )


Another good tactics at high levels of non-casters vs casters (in particular zillas who love to go melee, foolish them!:smallsmile: ) to level the playing field is for the first to use AMF (UMD via scroll, or get an expensive greater ring of spell storing). However, vs gated/called creatures the AMF does not help - the smoke may help you there for the short duration of the gate to survive until the gate caster has to pay the price for the use of such a spell...:smallamused:

And then there is always a cube of force set to hedge out magic...


- Giacomo

Callix
2007-06-14, 05:32 AM
I just figured for 2000gp, it was a pretty neat pickup. Oh, well back to the drawing board... Thought it was worth a try. Short of Wail of the Banshee or Weird, not much is save-or-die AoE, which is what it has to be to hit with total concealment. Fair enough on the concealment call though.

greenknight
2007-06-14, 05:39 AM
If Spell Compendium is allowed, then neither the Horn of Fog nor an Eversmoking Bottle will do much good, because both Clerics and Druids have access to the Blindsight (and Greater Blindsight) spell, and are likely to have it prepared. All you'd end up doing is making your character an easier target for C'Zilla. Even without that, all the character needs to do is summon a creature with blindsight, and you'll probably wind up dead.

lord_khaine
2007-06-14, 06:26 AM
or for that matter just fly out of the smoke, before clusterbombing it with whatevers memorised.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-14, 06:55 AM
@Callix: sorry, mistook Dausuul to be the OP- basically my last post was for you. The eversmoking bottle costs just 5,400 gold and you can go quite a way with that with the same idea.

@greenknight: blindsight does not help you to target someone with spells. The zilla guy would have at least the option to go melee, but that is still quite hard vs someone you maybe cannot locate.

@lord_khaine: most area spells have actually quite a limited area of effect. The smoke extends to 100ft radius. Good look hitting something- and if it's rogue, monk, multiclass or someone with evasion, that's not going to help you much. Caster runs out of spells clusterbombing, non-caster is still not caught, will strike back vs the spellcaster out of the smoke with arrows (spellcasting is loud enough to locate you from quite a way back or a surprise flying charge into melee with flying spellcaster. A monk, for instance, will always fly faster than the caster).

- Giacomo

barawn
2007-06-14, 08:21 AM
The idea is simple. An equal-level rogue

Stay hidden so the cleric can't see you. Move in, DC 20 sleight of hand check to steal the cleric's holy symbol before he's aware of you.

Ramos
2007-06-14, 08:26 AM
Ranged attack the cleric's holy symbol using a weapon with some acid damage. Once the holy symbol is gone, no more spellcasting/undead turning from mr. cleric.

Meele sunder attempt can do the same-only it is much easier to break it as meele attacks do higher damage.

Like a Lion
2007-06-14, 10:54 AM
'Cause it's not like a cleric can have more than one holy symbol on it, right? It's vital for spellcasting, so it's not like he'll keep backups, right?

Leon
2007-06-14, 12:18 PM
Ranged attack the cleric's holy symbol using a weapon with some acid damage. Once the holy symbol is gone, no more spellcasting/undead turning from mr. cleric.

Meele sunder attempt can do the same-only it is much easier to break it as meele attacks do higher damage.

Given the Myrid ways that a Holy Symbol can appear thats easier said than done

Fax Celestis
2007-06-14, 12:21 PM
Better way: Take a spellthief. Have the spellthief UMD greater invisibility on himself. Then, sneak up on the cleric, steal his holy symbol, and backstab him. When he counters with persistent metacheese (what he can, anyway, without a holy symbol), stab him again, sacrifice all your sneak attack dice, and use your wonderful wonderful Steal Spell Effect class ability to switch all that persistent metacheese to yourself. Proceed to beat the living snot out of him.

Jasdoif
2007-06-14, 01:00 PM
@greenknight: blindsight does not help you to target someone with spells. The zilla guy would have at least the option to go melee, but that is still quite hard vs someone you maybe cannot locate.Blindsight works just fine here. The smoke doesn't block line of effect, so blindsight and spells will work against a creature hiding in smoke.

barawn
2007-06-14, 01:04 PM
Given the Myrid ways that a Holy Symbol can appear thats easier said than done

After having a holy symbol sundered, one of my previous players wanted to have a spare holy symbol made out of cast iron, ten feet tall, carried on a cart around with the party. I thought that was hilarious.

Personally, I think it's a bit annoying the SRD doesn't provide more details about how divine and arcane focuses need to work. I mean, couldn't the cleric just build the holy symbol into his/her armor? In that case, what's the point of the focus in the first place?

Fax Celestis
2007-06-14, 01:19 PM
After having a holy symbol sundered, one of my previous players wanted to have a spare holy symbol made out of cast iron, ten feet tall, carried on a cart around with the party. I thought that was hilarious.

Personally, I think it's a bit annoying the SRD doesn't provide more details about how divine and arcane focuses need to work. I mean, couldn't the cleric just build the holy symbol into his/her armor? In that case, what's the point of the focus in the first place?

You can build a holy symbol into your armor, for about 500 gp. It's in the DMG-II.

barawn
2007-06-14, 01:31 PM
You can build a holy symbol into your armor, for about 500 gp. It's in the DMG-II.

Yeah, that was poorly worded before. That's what I was implying. Since you can do that, what's the point of them in the first place? Other than silly flavor. You can't Sunder an opponent's armor, so your nice holy symbol is perfectly immune from any damage, just for the low low price of 500 gp.

It's the equivalent of saying "well, why doesn't a wizard have his spellbook tatooed onto his body?" Although that would make for some disturbing morning preparation sessions.

Like a Lion
2007-06-14, 01:33 PM
It's the equivalent of saying "well, why doesn't a wizard have his spellbook tatooed onto his body?" Although that would make for some disturbing morning preparation sessions.

...you, uh, might not want to look at the Tattooed Spellbook rules in the Complete Arcane. :smallamused:

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-14, 01:51 PM
What ever happened to the good ol' Grapple check? If (and this is a big if, since a cleric could easily get a metamagic rod of extension) the cleric doesn't have that many of his/her buffs going, a person with impressive strength and a fighter's BAB progression and Improved Grapple could use any method of sneaking up that you see fit and start wrestling the cleric. If you can make yourself Large or Huge-sized, even better. I'm sure there's a spell or two that don't have somatic components - but not enough to help the cleric ever get out, I imagine. Heck, if you can keep the cleric pinned he/she can't cast ANY spells, anyways. 1d3+Str damage a few times a round until he/she is dead.

It's amazing how often people think that having some ranks in Concentration makes them immune to ever losing their spellcasting ability.

Like a Lion
2007-06-14, 01:55 PM
What ever happened to the good ol' Grapple check?
Freedom of Movment happened. Also, clerics tend to be strong and do have 3/4 BAB, so they're ikely to be able to escape the grapple at some point even without that.

Jasdoif
2007-06-14, 01:56 PM
What ever happened to the good ol' Grapple check?Freedom of movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) killed it, especially when it turned into ring (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement) form.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-06-14, 02:30 PM
Off the top of my head, I can think of two ways:

1. Dispel Magic. It's the equivalent of tricking Captain Marvel into saying "Shazam". One set of good caster level checks, and he's back to being a healbitch.
2. If he's not using Divine Persistant cheese, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, or a similar Bead of Force. His buffs all run out sometime.

Jack Mann
2007-06-14, 06:03 PM
Yeah, CoDzilla's not invulnerable. On the other hand, they're still generally better than a fighter. The only time the fighter really outshines a cleric or druid is in an anti-magic field, and those just aren't that common.

barawn
2007-06-14, 06:13 PM
an anti-magic field, and those just aren't that common.

I swear. I've seen this a half-dozen times, and I don't get it. Antimagic field is a 6th level spell. A potion of antimagic field costs a grand total of 3300 gp.

Why would it be uncommon at high levels?

excrtd
2007-06-14, 06:18 PM
I believe that potions can only be made of 3rd-level or lower spells.

Like a Lion
2007-06-14, 06:22 PM
I swear. I've seen this a half-dozen times, and I don't get it. Antimagic field is a 6th level spell. A potion of antimagic field costs a grand total of 3300 gp.

Why would it be uncommon at high levels?

http://www.superdickery.com/images/misc/morbo.jpg
BREW POTION DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!!!

You can't make a potion of Antimagic Field because it's not third level or lower. You ALSO can't make a potion of Antimagic Field because it's a PERSONAL spell.

Jack Mann
2007-06-14, 06:23 PM
Potions do not work that way! Third level or lower, Barawn. Third level or lower.

And anyone capable of casting anti-magic field probably doesn't want to, because they are a caster, and it prevents them from casting spells. You know, those little things that allow them to reshape the cosmos according to their whim? They like those, generally. The only time someone would actually want to do so is if they have some way of reshaping the field to exclude them or casting it as a touch spell (like a master specialist with abjuration). Possibly a cleric might cast the spell if he knew he was about to go up against a wizard.

Fualkner Asiniti
2007-06-14, 06:32 PM
Jeez, don't you guys ever read Magic of Fearun?

Master Alchemist: Hey look everyone! Now you can brew 9th level potions! Yipee!

So, with core it's no, but in Faerun, it's yes.

Jack Mann
2007-06-14, 06:40 PM
It still doesn't work. Even if you can make sixth level potions, Antimagic Field isn't a legal spell for potion-brewing, or, now that I think about it, the master specialist trick. It technically doesn't have a target. If it did have a target, it would be personal, but it doesn't.

Orzel
2007-06-14, 06:41 PM
Shoot a bunch of Sleep arrows and pray for a 1 and not elf. No one casts Wind Wall 'til after you shoot 'em.

Be an Approriate FE ranger. Rapid Shot with a buch of supper arrow, wait for WW, Favored Leaping Heedless Greatsword Power Lion Charge! and pray. I like FLHGPLC. Tt's fun.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-14, 06:57 PM
Sadly for the rogue, Sneak Attack cannot be used against a creature with Concealment. In order to negate the cleric's Concealment, the rogue would have to enter the cleric's space, thus (in your scenario) denying himself the Concealment required to Hide from the cleric!

Remember, would-be assassins, you actually can't sneak attack someone in a dark alley (unless you have darkvision).

You are of course correct, but this has always irritated me about rogues. sneak attack in general.

ImperiousLeader
2007-06-14, 07:13 PM
Better way: Take a spellthief. Have the spellthief UMD greater invisibility on himself. Then, sneak up on the cleric, steal his holy symbol, and backstab him. When he counters with persistent metacheese (what he can, anyway, without a holy symbol), stab him again, sacrifice all your sneak attack dice, and use your wonderful wonderful Steal Spell Effect class ability to switch all that persistent metacheese to yourself. Proceed to beat the living snot out of him.

A nice idea, but alas, you cannot steal Personal Spell Effects, which are the bulk of a Cleric's buffs. You can only steal a spell effect if it is castable upon you, you can steal Mage Armour, but not Shield, for example.

That said, you could certainly steal the spell from the Cleric before he casts it and cast it upon yourself.

ETA: Oh, and btw, Greater Invisibility is already on the Spellthief's spell list, he gets all Sorc/Wiz spells from the Abjuration, Enchantment, Illusion and Transmutation schools. No UMD for any of those spells.

barawn
2007-06-14, 09:43 PM
It still doesn't work. Even if you can make sixth level potions, Antimagic Field isn't a legal spell for potion-brewing, or, now that I think about it, the master specialist trick. It technically doesn't have a target. If it did have a target, it would be personal, but it doesn't.

I was actually thinking of the Master Alchemist feat. However, I never noticed that AMF doesn't have a target, which is... just mind blowingly stupid. Wow. I never noticed that before. Words cannot describe how dumb that is (for all of the sphere spells, of course).

Jack Mann
2007-06-14, 09:48 PM
Even if it did, you still wouldn't be able to make an anti-magic field potion. It would be a personal range spell, which can't be made into potions.

Corolinth
2007-06-14, 10:19 PM
Touch attack. Wisdom damage. Negative level.

Jack Mann
2007-06-14, 11:59 PM
But again, while CoDzilla isn't invulnerable (Even a high-level wizard or archivist isn't completely invulnerable), most anything that can take one out can take a fighter out even easier. Touch attacks and negative levels hurt fighters too, and there are spells that give penalties or damage to strength.

kpenguin
2007-06-15, 01:00 AM
Step 1: Win intiative
Step 2: Shatter or sunder the divine focus (this eliminates a huge amount of buffs spells)
Step 3: ???
Step 4: PROFIT!

Inyssius Tor
2007-06-15, 01:19 AM
Step 1b: Lose initiative
Step 2b: Pull out one of your spare holy symbols (hey, lookit the fool who just wasted his standard action!)
Step 3b: ???
Step 4b: PROFIT!

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-15, 02:19 AM
Blindsight works just fine here. The smoke doesn't block line of effect, so blindsight and spells will work against a creature hiding in smoke.

Ah, you're correct! Forgot about that- non-core there are the relevant spells, core you can morph into a creature with blindsight. However, blindsight may only have a limited range- I'm not sure about it.

- Giacomo

Callix
2007-06-15, 02:36 AM
This thread seems to have taken on a life of its own... what have I created?:smalleek:

On the Spellthief idea, they can still give up a sneak attack to suppress 10 buffs for 1 min, or mix 9 suppressions and 1 9th level divine spell. Which is a pretty awesome tactic. And spellthieves don't get 6th level spells, which might be why UMD could be necessary. Open to interpretation. Like most of the RAW...

greenknight
2007-06-15, 02:57 AM
However, blindsight may only have a limited range- I'm not sure about it.

It usually does - the regular spell is limited to 30', while the greater version takes it to 60'. After a quick look through the monsters in the MM, it seems to top out at 120'. Or if you only need a general idea of where the foe is (for an area effect spell), you could Summon a Dire Bat to get 40' Blindsense.

Still, if your foe can use methods like that to figure out where you are while you are effectively blinded, it puts you at huge disadvantage.

Leon
2007-06-15, 03:02 AM
This thread seems to have taken on a life of its own... what have I created?:smalleek:


Must have been all that recent Lightning striking about



Step 1: Win intiative
Step 2: Shatter or sunder the divine focus (this eliminates a huge amount of buffs spells)
Step 3: ???
Step 4: PROFIT!

Relies to much on a variable and you have to know what the Focus is (my Cleric has a tattoo on his arm, covered by a bandage most times to look like a wound)

barawn
2007-06-15, 11:14 AM
On the Spellthief idea, they can still give up a sneak attack to suppress 10 buffs for 1 min, or mix 9 suppressions and 1 9th level divine spell. Which is a pretty awesome tactic. And spellthieves don't get 6th level spells, which might be why UMD could be necessary. Open to interpretation. Like most of the RAW...

Greater Invisibility is 4th level.

Spellthieves can't give up multiple 1d6s for suppressing multiple buffs. I wish I could find a ruling for that somewhere, but that's what it is - there's nothing that says they can do it repeatedly.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-15, 11:26 AM
Spellthieves can't give up multiple 1d6s for suppressing multiple buffs.

Uh, yes they can. As long as they have the dice to sacrifice, they can do so as often as they like.

barawn
2007-06-15, 11:46 AM
Uh, yes they can. As long as they have the dice to sacrifice, they can do so as often as they like.

Have you seen a ruling on this somewhere? I swear I've seen a ruling in opposition to it, but I'd love to hear that they can. Don't have the time to go look for it again.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-15, 11:51 AM
There isn't one. But look at the class features: if they took actions, or if they had a limitation (such as "you can't use this if you're using another spellthief ability"), then they wouldn't work. But since the abilities merely say, "By sacrificing +Xd6 sneak attack..." they function as long as you have that number of dice to sacrifice.

Corolinth
2007-06-15, 12:09 PM
But again, while CoDzilla isn't invulnerable (Even a high-level wizard or archivist isn't completely invulnerable), most anything that can take one out can take a fighter out even easier. Touch attacks and negative levels hurt fighters too, and there are spells that give penalties or damage to strength.A 20str fighter who takes 6 points of strength damage doesn't lose power attack, and hasn't lost enough attack bonus to prevent him from hitting. A 20wis cleric who takes 6 points of wisdom damage can't cast spells higher than level 4. Likewise, anything that a negative level does to hurt a fighter hurts every other class. Everybody takes the attack roll penalty (fighters have this in abundance, and can afford the loss). Everybody takes the save penalty. Everybody loses the 5hp per negative level (that really hurts arcane casters). Fighters don't have a highest level remaining spell slot to lose.

Then there's the added bonus that most stuff with ability damage/drain and negative levels are undead. So the persistent divine power cleric gets to listen to the rest of the group say, "You know, you could have turned all of this crap if you any turn undead left." Or the GM can point that out to him. Just to twist the knife.


Step 1b: Lose initiative
Step 2b: Pull out one of your spare holy symbols (hey, lookit the fool who just wasted his standard action!)
Step 3b: ???
Step 4b: PROFIT!Because every cleric carries around ten or twenty spare holy symbols in case theirs gets shattered. Every cleric prepares a contingency for something that nobody ever bothers to try. Every cleric, mind you, not just the ones who post on message boards about how unbeatable clerics are.

I understand clerics are unbeatable on paper. They have a way to counter everything bad that can possibly happen to them. Ever. They are invincible.

Except that they have to prepare all of that happy fun stuff ahead of time. They also only have a certain amount of spell slots available at any given time. On paper, we like to assume that the cleric has the right spell prepared. That makes him look invincible. On paper, at least. Now, anybody who knows how the game actually works also knows that this never happens.

What really happens is Carl hits 11th level, and decides not to prepare restoration because he can spontaneously cast heal. Then, when people are loaded up with ability score damage, the GM points out that heal is not a cure spell, nor is harm an inflict spell. Now everybody at the table hates Carl.

Countering your uber cleric is easy. You're his GM. You know what his favorite spells are. You're the one who decides what monsters the party is fighting. Do the math.

barawn
2007-06-15, 01:09 PM
There isn't one. But look at the class features: if they took actions, or if they had a limitation (such as "you can't use this if you're using another spellthief ability"), then they wouldn't work. But since the abilities merely say, "By sacrificing +Xd6 sneak attack..." they function as long as you have that number of dice to sacrifice.

Fax: That's not what it says. It says


A spellthief who hits an opponent with a successful sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead steal a spell, or the potential to cast a specific known spell, from his target.

which implies only one use per sneak attack.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-15, 01:34 PM
which implies only one use per sneak attack.

Don't assume. It makes an ass out of u and me. (Thank you, Odd Couple).

Does it specifically state that you cannot forego multiple sneak attack dice? No. See also: the Arcane Strike feat, which is worded similarly.

Since it doesn't take an action to forego sneak attack dice, there is nothing preventing you from doing it multiple times.

Jack Mann
2007-06-15, 01:51 PM
A 20str fighter who takes 6 points of strength damage doesn't lose power attack, and hasn't lost enough attack bonus to prevent him from hitting. A 20wis cleric who takes 6 points of wisdom damage can't cast spells higher than level 4. Likewise, anything that a negative level does to hurt a fighter hurts every other class. Everybody takes the attack roll penalty (fighters have this in abundance, and can afford the loss). Everybody takes the save penalty. Everybody loses the 5hp per negative level (that really hurts arcane casters). Fighters don't have a highest level remaining spell slot to lose.

Then there's the added bonus that most stuff with ability damage/drain and negative levels are undead. So the persistent divine power cleric gets to listen to the rest of the group say, "You know, you could have turned all of this crap if you any turn undead left." Or the GM can point that out to him. Just to twist the knife.

Because every cleric carries around ten or twenty spare holy symbols in case theirs gets shattered. Every cleric prepares a contingency for something that nobody ever bothers to try. Every cleric, mind you, not just the ones who post on message boards about how unbeatable clerics are.

I understand clerics are unbeatable on paper. They have a way to counter everything bad that can possibly happen to them. Ever. They are invincible.

Except that they have to prepare all of that happy fun stuff ahead of time. They also only have a certain amount of spell slots available at any given time. On paper, we like to assume that the cleric has the right spell prepared. That makes him look invincible. On paper, at least. Now, anybody who knows how the game actually works also knows that this never happens.

What really happens is Carl hits 11th level, and decides not to prepare restoration because he can spontaneously cast heal. Then, when people are loaded up with ability score damage, the GM points out that heal is not a cure spell, nor is harm an inflict spell. Now everybody at the table hates Carl.

Countering your uber cleric is easy. You're his GM. You know what his favorite spells are. You're the one who decides what monsters the party is fighting. Do the math.

Strength damage and penalties are typically easier to come by than wisdom damage and penalties. For whatever reason, the designers decided that spells that lower strength should be lower level than spells that lower wisdom by a similar amount. And while there are monsters that deal wisdom damage or drain, they're not as common as monsters that deal strength damage or drain.

Granted, strength damage to a fighter might not be quite as damaging as wisdom damage to a cleric, but on the other hand, if someone is capable of dealing wisdom damage to the cleric, they're almost certainly able to do much worse to the fighter. Indeed, wisdom damage to the fighter might be even more damning, if his wisdom is low enough. Comatose fighters aren't good for much.

And yes, you can break the cleric's holy symbol. Once. After that, he'd have to be an idiot not to get spares. If he knows you're going to target his holy symbol, then it's perfectly reasonable that he'd guard against the possibility.

Again, I'm not saying that a cleric is invincible. A good DM can find a way to challenge the cleric. The problem is that he's harder to challenge than the fighter, and there are very few situations in which the fighter doesn't come out looking like a sidekick.


Fax: That's not what it says. It says

which implies only one use per sneak attack.

By the strict wording, there's nothing preventing you from sacrificing more sneak attack dice to steal more spells. A DM might rule otherwise, but that's a use of rule 0, and not the RAW.

Shadowdweller
2007-06-15, 03:44 PM
Cast Bands of Steel, a 3rd level reflex-save-or-be-(mostly)-helpless spell (CArc, and probably spell compendium).