Mass Inflict

[Rift_Wolf]

Comics bought up an odd rules question, more a thought experiment than a possible story element;

If you cast Mass Inflict in a room with recently misted Vampires, can you target them in gaseous form and bring them right back?

[goodpeople25]

Comics bought up an odd rules question, more a thought experiment than a possible story element;

If you cast Mass Inflict in a room with recently misted Vampires, can you target them in gaseous form and bring them right back?

Interesting, considering the mention that all additional damage has no effect i'd say it can be targeted, but the other wording in it is seems to say that it wouldn't do anything, "Must reach coffin in 2 hours or be utterly destroyed" has nothing about what happens of he gets above 0 and the coffin part "is helpless and regains a hit point after an hour then gets fast healing back and is no longer helpless" again has no mention of healing above it. And both seem to be strictly worded enough that it would need to be mentioned specifically that healing negates it so I would say a valid interpation of pure Raw is that even if healed it wouldn't do anything till they got to the coffin for an hour. But then what's the point of healing then?

Not a player of D&D though.

[Darth Paul]

I'm sorry, I thought this was a thread about "Mass Effect"...

But seriously, folks; it would normally act as a healing spell to the undead, and generally healing spells are assumed to be cast on a willing target- but in this case it would be to the vampire's disadvantage to accept healing. If I read the intent of your post correctly.

So if it were attempted in a game where I was the DM (and mind you, assuming that it could target the gaseous form in the first place- I don't see why not but I don't have the books handy) I would give the targets saving throws to resist being involuntarily "wounded/healed". Failing the save would mean being sucked back into bodily form with 1d8 hit points. Success means they continue escaping in gaseous form.

[factotum]

There's nothing in the rules that says healing a vampire in gaseous form does anything at all--they *do* say that inflicting additional damage on a vampire who'se been forced into this form due to hit point loss has no effect, though, so I'd rule that healing has no effect either in this situation; the vampire must reach its coffin within 2 hours or be destroyed regardless of what the players do to it.

[SaintRidley]

Comics bought up an odd rules question, more a thought experiment than a possible story element;

If you cast Mass Inflict in a room with recently misted Vampires, can you target them in gaseous form and bring them right back?

Since vampiric fast healing doesn't do it for them one round later after being misted every time (and thus forever obviating the problem), I would assume not.

[brian 333]

Vampires are hard enough to destroy as it is! Let's not make them tougher, please!

Since these vampires have no coffins to which they can return, the concept is obviated: taking their last hit point renders them destroyed at that moment in the same way that healing spells do not work on a character brought to -10 HP. (The -10 rule specifically applies only to PC's.) However, a vampire which does have a coffin is required to return to it if it is forced into gaseous form due to hit point loss. This part is not optional, nor is it conditional on subsequent repair via negative energy spells.

[Darth Paul]

Since vampiric fast healing doesn't do it for them one round later after being misted every time (and thus forever obviating the problem), I would assume not.

I had not looked at it from that point of view. I retract my previous comment.

[Chronos]

Even without coffins, they're still not instantly destroyed. In theory, someone could give them a coffin in the next two hours, for instance. And a misted high priest would probably still count as being "in the room" for purposes of the vote.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Even without coffins, they're still not instantly destroyed.

The rules don't say specifically, and there are convincing arguments that yes, they are. It's a DM call, and many DMs would say that a vampire without a coffin is immediately destroyed at 0 HP.

[kaoskonfety]

The moral of the story:

Don't rely on the DM to save you.
Maintain several Dominated Carpenters who can build you a crappy coffin in under 2 hours.

[dtilque]

The rules don't say specifically, and there are convincing arguments that yes, they are. It's a DM call, and many DMs would say that a vampire without a coffin is immediately destroyed at 0 HP.

Well, that's not happening here. The vamped Stoners do not have coffins, but they have gone gaseous anyway. All those dark streams of vapor in the last panel are their mistforms. However, unlike the voluntary gaseous form, they don't have eyes and mouth.

The thing I'm wondering is what happens after 2 hours. Does the mistform just evaporate to nothing or does it recongeal to the dead body of the person vamped? This makes a difference if someone wants to Resurrect the person. I'm sure we'll find out sooner or later how it works in OotSverse.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Well, that's not happening here. The vamped Stoners do not have coffins, but they have gone gaseous anyway. All those dark streams of vapor in the last panel are their mistforms.

That is not clear. Malack left behind a similar-looking cloud of smoke when he was destroyed by the sun. Also, vampires with X eyes imply they're already dead.

[Jasdoif]

That is not clear. Malack left behind a similar-looking cloud of smoke when he was destroyed by the sun.As it turns out, we have a clarifying reference for that scenario:


That's the main reason why I made sure to show him in gaseous form during the Durkon/Malack fight, because that showed that when a vampire is gaseous, they take their equipment with them. Malack's stuff is still there. Hence, he's ash.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I'm aware of that, but I don't see how it clarifies this scenario either way, other than giving weak support for the "destroyed immediately" interpretation. Unlike Malack's destruction scene, there is no obvious "equipment left behind" (unless you count the X-eyed vampire corpses), and unlike every other instance of vampires assuming gaseous form, the clouds don't have eyes.

[Jasdoif]

I'm aware of that, but I don't see how it clarifies this scenario either way, other than giving weak support for the "destroyed immediately" interpretation. Unlike Malack's destruction scene, there is no obvious "equipment left behind" (unless you count the X-eyed vampire corpses), and unlike every other instance of vampires assuming gaseous form, the clouds don't have eyes.I think it does quite the opposite. There's a distinct lack of holy symbols, boots, cloaks, robes, and so on in the last panel of 1019 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1019.html), even though the locations where many vampires were "killed" would be in view.

...and I just noticed: The vampire who had X eyes from getting hit with two arrows in panel 2 doesn't appear after that, nor does any of her equipment; but the two arrows appear on the ground in four other panels, including the final panel.

"Currently gaseous" certainly looks reasonable at this point.

[dtilque]

I agree. The lack of clothes and holy symbols left behind makes this different from Malack being toasted by the sun. They've gone gaseous.

I think the reason they don't have eyes (or mouth) is because of the 0 HP thing. They can't see where they're going, but they have some kind of magical homing-in-on-their-coffin ability. Since they have no coffins, they will probably wonder aimlessly until their two hours are up.

[factotum]

I'm with Jasdoif on that too, the distinct lack of corpses or equipment lying on the floor suggest the vampires are currently in gaseous form. The only thing that's unclear to me is if the grey smoke in the final panel represent the said gaseous form, or if that's just smoke from the various flame strikes and what-have-you that were unleashed by the clerics.

[rodneyAnonymous]

So things that you don't see (items on the ground) are more important than things that you do see (clouds look different than previous depictions of vampires in gaseous form). I disagree :) But it's unclear.

[Rift_Wolf]

From memory, Vampires ashed by the sun are different from vamps misted by damage. Sun-killed vamps don't get a chance to go back to their coffins. Misted vamps are only *mostly* dead, there's a big difference between mostly dead, and all dead.

[Zwiebelchen]

Misted vamps are only *mostly* dead, there's a big difference between mostly dead, and all dead.
Let's not forget the *technically dead* they are before they get *mostly dead* or *all dead*.

Not to be confused with when they have offspring. Then, they are dad.

[Jasdoif]

So things that you don't see (items on the ground) are more important than things that you do see (clouds look different than previous depictions of vampires in gaseous form). I disagree :) But it's unclear.Well, any importance of the clouds would be because we don't see clouds that match the previous depictions of vampires in gaseous form...which could just as easily be because those clouds aren't depictions of vampires in gaseous form.

I kind of doubt we're going to see the inside of the chamber in two hours though (unless there's a joke about caterers, or the price of vampire dust in Morrowind or something), so I'm not sure exactly how much of a difference it's going to make either way.


Misted vamps are only *mostly* dead, there's a big difference between mostly dead, and all dead.The lack of pockets would explain why you can't go through their pockets looking for loose change....

[dtilque]

The only thing that's unclear to me is if the grey smoke in the final panel represent the said gaseous form, or if that's just smoke from the various flame strikes and what-have-you that were unleashed by the clerics.

I checked the three previous times1 Flamestrike has been used in the strip and none of them have smoke afterward. No one cast a fireball or anything else that's likely to leave smoke behind. Until indicated otherwise, I'm going with those dark vapors as being a forced vampire mistform.


1 The Magic Compendium comes in handy at times like this. Thank you, Wombat.

[Trixie]

The vamped Stoners do not have coffins

Are you sure about that? Big churches usually have crypts, with plenty of coffins and sarcophagi to spare. It wouldn't be a big leap for them to pick a coffin each before entering the fight, especially if you can do so mentally.

[Rift_Wolf]

The lack of pockets would explain why you can't go through their pockets looking for loose change....

Isn't that the standard D&D party's reaction to 'all dead'?
Just ran the scene through with Durkon in my head and made myself sad.

[Rift_Wolf]

Are you sure about that? Big churches usually have crypts, with plenty of coffins and sarcophagi to spare. It wouldn't be a big leap for them to pick a coffin each before entering the fight, especially if you can do so mentally.

Church wasn't there yesterday, and wasn't meant to be there tomorrow. It'd be a very pessimistic cult that built crypts into such a temporary structure.

Unless Creed of the Stone had a hq nearby. Then again, define 'coffin'. Would an apple crate count?

[dtilque]

Besides what Rift_Wolf said, vampire coffins aren't just any old box you happen to find lying around. Not even if it were a box meant to have someone buried in it. It's the box that the vampire was actually buried in for three days. That makes some kind of magical connection between the vampire and the box.

Malack implied that there was a way to create the magical link without the burial, but he was destroyed before they could do that for Durkula. So it's most likely that Durkevil doesn't know how to do it, but even if he does, there just are no handy boxes sitting around for him to do it with. As Rift_Wolf says, this is a very temporary temple, not one that's been occupied and used for years.

[Gift Jeraff]

Even if we ignore the lack of eyes, when Malack, Durkon, and Gontor turned into gas, they were a mix of black and white mist. The black clouds in the last 2 strips look more similar to Malack's ash in the final panel after Nale killed him.

[littlebum2002]

Besides what Rift_Wolf said, vampire coffins aren't just any old box you happen to find lying around. Not even if it were a box meant to have someone buried in it. It's the box that the vampire was actually buried in for three days. That makes some kind of magical connection between the vampire and the box.

Malack implied that there was a way to create the magical link without the burial, but he was destroyed before they could do that for Durkula. So it's most likely that Durkevil doesn't know how to do it, but even if he does, there just are no handy boxes sitting around for him to do it with. As Rift_Wolf says, this is a very temporary temple, not one that's been occupied and used for years.

This is a good point. Creating a vampire without a coffin is Rich's houserule, so he'll have to also have a houserule by which a vampire can create/designate their coffin after the fact. We don't know what that houserule is yet; however, that's never stopped us from speculating before, so it shouldn't now!

[dtilque]

Even if we ignore the lack of eyes, when Malack, Durkon, and Gontor turned into gas, they were a mix of black and white mist. The black clouds in the last 2 strips look more similar to Malack's ash in the final panel after Nale killed him.

Everyone seems to be trying to stuff the dark vapors from the vampires into one of two possibilities:

1) Ash from being toasted by the sun. Dark colored; no eyes; clothes and possessions left behind.

2) Voluntary mistform. Multiple colors including lighter ones; eyes on mist; clothes and possessions taken with.

The vapors in question don't match either of these in all characteristics. Like 1), they're dark colored and have no eyes, but the clothes were not left behind. Like 2) the possessions were taken with, but they have no light vapors and no eyes. I'm suggesting they go into a third box:

3) Involuntary mistform. Dark colored; no eyes; clothes and possessions taken with.

In involuntary mistform, the vampire is at 0 HP and will only seek out its coffin. It can't talk or move in other directions. If it has no coffin, it wanders aimlessly until its two hour time limit is over and then is destroyed. What happens to the mist in that case is not specified in the rules, so is up to Rich.

[Rift_Wolf]

This is a good point. Creating a vampire without a coffin is Rich's houserule, so he'll have to also have a houserule by which a vampire can create/designate their coffin after the fact. We don't know what that houserule is yet; however, that's never stopped us from speculating before, so it shouldn't now!

If I was GM, I'd say the vamp can designate a coffin as theirs by resting in it for three consecutive days, and any new designated coffin replaces the Old one (to prevent 'a woman in every port, a coffin in every crypt' scenarios). Traditionally buried vamps can't designate a new coffin, hence them going to such lengths to transport their coffins.
Under no circumstances would I allow a vampire to be buried in a bag of holding.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Under no circumstances would I allow a vampire to be buried in a bag of holding.

What if their designated home coffin is inside the bag of holding?

[KorvinStarmast]

What if their designated home coffin is inside the bag of holding?Play at another table. That kind of crap is what makes Munchkins get the rep they do.

[factotum]

Play at another table. That kind of crap is what makes Munchkins get the rep they do.

I think that's a bit unfair. It seems a reasonable question to me, to which the probable answer is "The coffin won't fit through the opening of the Bag of Holding".

[rodneyAnonymous]

I cast shrink item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shrinkItem.htm) on the coffin to get it inside the bag, and agree that is a ridiculous overreaction to a silly but reasonable question.

[Rift_Wolf]

What if their designated home coffin is inside the bag of holding?

Well it couldn't be a Type I due to overloading risks, and would mean you couldn't carry extra bags or portable holes (or you'd end up on the Astral Plane, where there's no time so you'd be helpless forever). I'd probably allow it to transportation to a new area. Carrying round your coffin in an easily lootable bag is asking for trouble.

[eilandesq]

They're technically not destroyed until the two hours are up, so if an extremely powerful caster wanted to use Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle to create one or more viable coffins(one or two for LW, up to maybe twenty for Wish or Miracle) during that time, I'd allow it as a GM, as along with physically creating the coffins it could be reasoned to provide a connection between the vampire(s) and the coffins. Without that connection, any coffin created after that time by mundane or magical means is just a wood box with no connection to the misted vampire, and it shouldn't serve to save them.

[The_Weirdo]

What if their designated home coffin is inside the bag of holding?

*Holds Portable Hole. Smiles both adorably and creepily* ^.^

[Rift_Wolf]

*Holds Portable Hole. Smiles both adorably and creepily* ^.^

*thinks about chain of events*
...
That's monstrous! And simultaneously awesome and ironic!

[Rift_Wolf]

They're technically not destroyed until the two hours are up, so if an extremely powerful caster wanted to use Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle to create one or more viable coffins(one or two for LW, up to maybe twenty for Wish or Miracle) during that time, I'd allow it as a GM, as along with physically creating the coffins it could be reasoned to provide a connection between the vampire(s) and the coffins. Without that connection, any coffin created after that time by mundane or magical means is just a wood box with no connection to the misted vampire, and it shouldn't serve to save them.

Set up contingency wish
'i wish I'd gotten round to designating a coffin!'
*gets books thrown at him*

[kaoskonfety]

They're technically not destroyed until the two hours are up, so if an extremely powerful caster wanted to use Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle to create one or more viable coffins(one or two for LW, up to maybe twenty for Wish or Miracle) during that time, I'd allow it as a GM, as along with physically creating the coffins it could be reasoned to provide a connection between the vampire(s) and the coffins. Without that connection, any coffin created after that time by mundane or magical means is just a wood box with no connection to the misted vampire, and it shouldn't serve to save them.

I'd eyeball a spell specifically designed to do this (create an appropriate connection for a 0hp vampire to use random coffin) to do this between 4th and 6th level - "raise dead" range. Might entertain going as low as 1st to 3rd for a horror setting where vampire are intended to be unkillable (and let Renfield-esque minions the party has overlooked or spared save the Master!)

[Rift_Wolf]

I'd eyeball a spell specifically designed to do this (create an appropriate connection for a 0hp vampire to use random coffin) to do this between 4th and 6th level - "raise dead" range. Might entertain going as low as 1st to 3rd for a horror setting where vampire are intended to be unkillable (and let Renfield-esque minions the party has overlooked or spared save the Master!)

I'd put it 5th. Wand of Designate Coffin would be a hilarious white elephant though.

[kaoskonfety]

I'd put it 5th. Wand of Designate Coffin would be a hilarious white elephant though.

Like, a case with 5 of them. All down a few charges. The sun is setting. Looks like it will be a beautiful night.

[eilandesq]

I'd put it 5th. Wand of Designate Coffin would be a hilarious white elephant though.

[cleric of sun god identifies that wand, cackles in a way that is disturbingly gleeful for a neutral good cleric, and uses it to research the reversed version--"Vampiric Rest Denial"] ]:-)

[kaoskonfety]

[cleric of sun god identifies that wand, cackles in a way that is disturbingly gleeful for a neutral good cleric, and uses it to research the reversed version--"Vampiric Rest Denial"] ]:-)

Like... a spell that "un-attunes" a coffin without destroying it? Kind of a corner case, even if its ranged. Shatter would do the same job at level 3. A mace and a couple rounds with no slot expense. I suppose the coffin could be sold if not destroyed and I know ALOT of PC's who try to maximize $$$ output.

Now a spell that targets the vampire would be both situational and VERY awesome. And I'd have given much for such a thing in several games and nearly everything for it in Ravenloft.

[Rift_Wolf]

[cleric of sun god identifies that wand, cackles in a way that is disturbingly gleeful for a neutral good cleric, and uses it to research the reversed version--"Vampiric Rest Denial"] ]:-)

Very poor spell wording might allow you to target both the vampire and a coffin. This would lead to '2 coffin kiting' for ultimate Vampire trolling.

[eilandesq]

Very poor spell wording might allow you to target both the vampire and a coffin. This would lead to '2 coffin kiting' for ultimate Vampire trolling.

Most useful would probably be a version that temporarily suppresses the vampire/coffin relationship (for *all* coffins the vampire might have ready) for a certain period of time when directed at the vampire itself, either for a single vampire or all in a radius. A will save and SR (if applicable) would probably be appropriate, and the duration should probably be something like an hour/level (creating a moderately long lasting vulnerability but not permanently crippling the vampire).

[Kish]

At the end of the Fighting Fantasy Gamebook Vault of the Vampire, if you manage to defeat the eponymous vampire in combat, the gamebook asks you, "Did you find and destroy two coffins already?"

If you did, his mistform floats to the coffin in front of you and you can stake him. If you didn't, his mistform floats away and the gamebook tells you, "Apparently you failed to find at least one hidden coffin; you rescue the prisoner you came there for and get her back to the village, but you have failed to destroy Reinier Heydrich tonight, and he'll probably come after you when the sun next sets."