Dead PCs

[YuanTi]

Last night the level 8 fighter of the group died. He got really annoyed saying that I cheated and I wanted his character dead, and the encounter (Black Dragon) was unfair. I say that said Black Dragon is the standard size for a party of this level and that he's the one who charged it. (And it got 2 critical hits in a row)

So do other DMs find players get pissed when their character dies? I say its no big deal, either a new character or a Raise Dead Spell is all thats needed.

[banjo1985]

Hmm yeah angry players can be a problem, there have been a few arguements in our group about a few incidents, namely a frost worm using colour spray and killing the whole party except my cleric! That caused weeks worth of consternation, even though I raised them all back in the end.

Most players are fine with character death in my experience, the problem arises when they feel they have been picked on, or in your case, have been dealt a huge dose of bad luck. Some GM's will doctor roles that are a little unfair on players, such as two criticals in a row, unless the player got their character into a suicidal position without thinking, in which case it's their own fault! Itreally depends on how you GM, and the players have to act accordingly.

[Hopeless]

Last night the level 8 fighter of the group died. He got really annoyed saying that I cheated and I wanted his character dead, and the encounter (Black Dragon) was unfair. I say that said Black Dragon is the standard size for a party of this level and that he's the one who charged it. (And it got 2 critical hits in a row)

So do other DMs find players get pissed when their character dies? I say its no big deal, either a new character or a Raise Dead Spell is all thats needed.

When you say standard size did you mean it has 19hd?
The CR's for dragons are hopelessly awful and just for comparison the dm in a game I played in sicced 2x 19hd dragons on us but we had two parties of adventurers at the time and he decided to play the dragons who wanted a pair of enchanted circlets off of us and refused to release a token prisoner even though had it had done so it would have at leats had one of the items it wanted.
However my argument was when he had one of the two dragons divebomb the surviving party only to have my cleric crit a spot check and asked if he could pull an attack of opportunity upon it.
He said yes so a control water spell to create a wall of water in the way whilst moving everyone behind down to the floor of the Marsh we were traversing above only for him to turn around and say it WASN'T surprised and still pulled off its dragon breath even though since it had been first diving and then pulling up it should have been more concerned with avoiding crashing than accurately breathing upon characters who it couldn't see in the time it took to fly past the wall of water...

I think I trumped your fighter's protest there and quite legitmately unless he was taken out in the first round before he could do anything even though he was at the entrance before anyone in the first place.... sorry thats another story...

[prufock]

Under the right conditions, I've been known to make players cry.

[Human Paragon 3]

However my argument was when he had one of the two dragons divebomb the surviving party only to have my cleric crit a spot check and asked if he could pull an attack of opportunity upon it.
He said yes so a control water spell to create a wall of water in the way whilst moving everyone behind down to the floor of the Marsh we were traversing above only for him to turn around and say it WASN'T surprised and still pulled off its dragon breath even though since it had been first diving and then pulling up it should have been more concerned with avoiding crashing than accurately breathing upon characters who it couldn't see in the time it took to fly past the wall of water...


First of all, how do you crit a spot check? Skill checks are never criticals or botches. Second, how do you get an attack of opportunity off a good spot check? Does he have some feat I'm not aware of or is this a bizarre house rule? Last, casting a spell and then giving your entire party move actions isn't an attack of opportunity, it's giving you an extra round ahead of the dragon in initiative, which he probably shouldn't have done, so what really happened is he gave your party an unfair advanage and then immediately took it away by having it not effect the battle at all.

Sounds like your DM screwed the pooch on that encounter big time, but I wouldn't call it unfair necessarily, at least not without knowing more about the black dragons and your party.

[Piccamo]

When you say standard size did you mean it has 19hd?
The CR's for dragons are hopelessly awful and just for comparison the dm in a game I played in sicced 2x 19hd dragons on us but we had two parties of adventurers at the time and he decided to play the dragons who wanted a pair of enchanted circlets off of us and refused to release a token prisoner even though had it had done so it would have at leats had one of the items it wanted.
However my argument was when he had one of the two dragons divebomb the surviving party only to have my cleric crit a spot check and asked if he could pull an attack of opportunity upon it.
He said yes so a control water spell to create a wall of water in the way whilst moving everyone behind down to the floor of the Marsh we were traversing above only for him to turn around and say it WASN'T surprised and still pulled off its dragon breath even though since it had been first diving and then pulling up it should have been more concerned with avoiding crashing than accurately breathing upon characters who it couldn't see in the time it took to fly past the wall of water...

I think I trumped your fighter's protest there and quite legitmately unless he was taken out in the first round before he could do anything even though he was at the entrance before anyone in the first place.... sorry thats another story...

What sort of hose rules do you play with?

[Dausuul]

Last night the level 8 fighter of the group died. He got really annoyed saying that I cheated and I wanted his character dead, and the encounter (Black Dragon) was unfair. I say that said Black Dragon is the standard size for a party of this level and that he's the one who charged it. (And it got 2 critical hits in a row)

So do other DMs find players get pissed when their character dies? I say its no big deal, either a new character or a Raise Dead Spell is all thats needed.

I have known players to get upset over character death; I have myself, though it's been many years since I got so attached to a character as to respond to his/her death with anything other than a shrug and a "Dang. Okay, I get to make a new character now!"

That said, it's one thing to be mad at the dice and/or your own idiocy. It's quite another to accuse the DM of cheating. Particularly in a game where raise dead is allowed. I'm used to playing under house rules which make death pretty much final.

[Telonius]

First of all, the player is objectively wrong. The DM, literally, can't cheat. If the DM says it, it's legal. That said, it doesn't matter whether the player is right or not. He's mad, and that's the situation you're going to have to deal with at the moment.

The player is probably heavily invested emotionally in the character. He needs a serious dose of Roleplaying 101. Namely, you are not your character. He might also have a bad temper generally, but even experienced RPers feel some disappointment at having their character die. I'd suggest letting things cool down for awhile. Maybe have the players find a scroll of Resurrection on the dragon's corpse. Anyway, make it clear to them that the things they're fighting are dangerous. You're not going to pull any punches with them. If they use stupid tactics, they will get eaten. If they use good tactics, they will win. If your players are really terrible strategists, throw some lower-ECL stuff at them next chace you get. Design an encounter or two that will teach them to think laterally. Basically, reward players for thinking of ways around situations. Bonus XP can help here, for beginner-level players.

Now, for the DM's mis-steps. Truly awful luck is one of those situations where a DM has to make a decision. The players don't know the roll result, since it's behind the screen. This might have been the time for you to have fudged the roll. The DM's die roll is whatever he says it is; that 20 doesn't have to be a 20. Whether or not you do that is up to you, but file this away for when the situation comes up again.

Possibility of character death is one thing that should be dealt with before the first gaming session starts. Making sure the players can step back from their characters is another. This sort of thing should really be taken care of before the situation comes up. The DM and the Players may have very different expectations of just how dangerous or gritty the gaming world is going to be. If you didn't have that conversation beforehand, do it ASAP.

[SoulCatcher78]

It's a lot like real life in that people will happily blame anyone but themselves when the results are bad. It doesn't matter if it's an RPG or some other type of game, no one likes to lose. The Fighter in the original question most likely brought his own doom upon himself by charging a dragon (if he had any idea of how big/mean/powerful even small dragons can be then he's suicidal or looking for some kind of miracle to survive). Dragons are huge threats for a reason and should be treated as such by PCs or be prepared to come to a rather bad and sticky end.

As far as getting upset, well if he had a lot invested in the character (a couple months of game play for instance) and had to start at 1st level again then I could understnad why he might be a bit peeved. But unless there's no way to raise him, it's not a final ending.

[Kurald Galain]

Depends on whether it was the player's fault or dumb bad luck. I was in a tourney once where a well-played careful wizard who hadn't taken any damage throughout the session was one-shotted by a surprise dragon breath weapon attack. He didn't get mad since it was only a tourney but it was quite unfair.

[Matthew]

Sounds like you need to talk to the player outside of the game and explain that you were not picking on him. Bad tactics and unlucky dice were all it came down to. You really need to nip this issue in the bud, as there must be trust between the DM and Players for the game to work properly. Saying that, I have been the victim of a DM revenge killing at least once, I was annoyed at the time, but in retrospect I was mocking the deadliness of his Underdark Campaign...

[Human Paragon 3]

but in retrospect I was mocking the deadliness of his Underdark Campaign...

Aye, you sewed the wind and reaped the whirlwind, my friend.

[Matthew]

Undoubtedly true. As I recall, we were cut off by Revenants in a tunnel and after they managed to kill my Elf Cleric (whose Bow and party tactics had been causing havoc until this point), they dragged his body away and left the rest of the party intact.

[RandomNPC]

my group seems to take the "wow, that was a tough dragon" approach. a good built fighter and a warforged wizard took a dive in a line of acid and just kinda moped for a minuet, they're fine now.

it'll blow over, just give it time.

[Accolon]

I recently had a palyer get very upset with me when his character died. He accused me of cheating, targeting his character, and generally being a bad DM. Unfortunately, the character was killed during a session where the player couldn't be there. The player beleived I should have "fudged the dice" to save his character, and that I played him incorrectly, and HE would have played him differently. This was an 8th level character and I've DMed him since October, and been this player's DM since 1997. I'm pretty sure I knew what I was doing.

In any case, players often forget that their character is a character in a game. And while, as a DM, I want that kind of cool commitment to the character, it is still a game. I think the longer a player plays his/her character the more "real" the character becomes. I've been a DM for nearly 20 years, and it's always the same. I guess players have the right to be upset, as often times characters become old friends, and as a player and a DM, I've had cherished characters and NPCs die. Being upset is fine, being angry and blaming the DM of cheating or being a "killer DM", or being out to get one player over the others, is wrong. I've found that if a DM cheats, a majority of the time, it's in the PLAYER'S favor.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

My PC's tend not to mind even if I kill them intentionally. I have, a few times actually. They really didn't seem to mind, except on one occasion when I didn't actually mean to kill a PC but they got mad at me and the rest of the group when they failed a save against a wail of the banshee trap. I'm about to start ranting, so I'll stop.

[Jannex]

I think that, at the beginning of any campaign, the GM should make it clear to the players what his stance on character death is; if he's a "let the dice fall where they may" GM, or a "killing PCs for fun and profit" GM, the players have the right to know that, so they know not to put as much effort and investment into their characters. In my experience, it's a lot worse having a character die if you've put a lot of work into developing a character's personality and background history, and really gotten into the character's head, than if all you have is a name attached to some stats on a character sheet.

In the case of the situation the OP presented, I don't know how much effort the player of the Fighter had put into developing his character, but if he'd put a lot of energy into it, and you never specified that you were the "let the dice fall where they may" type, then telling him "it's no big deal, all you need is a new character" would probably only piss him off more.

[Diggorian]

My players know beforehand that I house rule returning from death as very difficult; and that mostly death is final. No fear of death means no true courage.

Also, IMHO, character death is the best teacher of players. Charging monsters isnt the best tactic to tackle everything, even if ya have several feats invested in that style. Took me several dozen PC deaths to learn. Scattering and using Total defense while getting into position is less dramatic but likely what a highly experienced warrior should and would do.

I've rarely had players pissed over death, though definately disappointed. I'll place a scene in game for the other players to RP their PC's mourning and honoring the fallen (giving nice XP bonuses for acting/sincerity). Then make sure to give the new PC the spotlight to establish their coolness.

As a player I've been pissed only when I'm pretty sure the encounter was unfair: like getting hit with a touch ray that deals many more damage dice than I have HD (too high level) or opening a door into a completely unavoidable trap (who keeps a mature adult white dragon behind an unlocked regular sized door in an otherwise empty room of a level 6 dungeon ?!?).

If it's just the odds catching up to me, I'm bummed but cool with it. Time for a new concept.

[PinkysBrain]

My players know beforehand that I house rule returning from death as very difficult; and that mostly death is final. No fear of death means no true courage.
On the other hand, permanent death means no campaign continuity (because as you say the odds will catch up with you in the end, it doesn't matter how careful you play death is only ever 1 or 2 dice rolls away in D&D).

Scattering and using Total defense while getting into position is less dramatic but likely what a highly experienced warrior should and would do.
An experienced warrior would stay at home and leave adventuring to team cleric :)

[Diggorian]

On the other hand, permanent death means no campaign continuity (because as you say the odds will catch up with you in the end, it doesn't matter how careful you play death is only ever 1 or 2 dice rolls away in D&D).

Not sure what ya mean by campaign continuity? You die, but your friends continue on.

D&D is only as lethal as ya play it. There's other ways to challenge PCs without combat. And though I dont fudge rolls, there's extra checks and saves that can be made to prevent a hollow death.

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

I've made it next to impossible to res, but at the same time, I've made it hard to die. The characters have to hit negative HP equal to their hp total to die due to damage. They are still out of commission at 0 or lower, and if they remain lower then 0 for 10 rounds or more, they die anyway.

So less deaths due to bad luck, but it still happens for dramatic or bad strategy reasons.

[Ben_the_dragon]

we have all died do to bad luck, heck i have had my share of it, in one game i was hit with 5 crit. attacks in a row over 3 different encounters, i was able to live.....barely. but i don;t blame the DM we know he doesn't pull punches, i had another char that avoided getting hit for over 15 sessions but the only time i did get hit it was a 4X crit and took me down. i thought it was unfair because i had no time to react, and i was not play stupid, but it happens.