3.5, the results of an illusion of a signgularity

[Lightlawbliss]

What would happen if somebody made a programmed image of a singularity (as in the center of a black hole). I'm assuming caster and friends wanted to get far away and let the enemy trigger it.

Assume the material plane is like our real life except as outlined in the 3.5 rules.

Assume some powerful wizard studied black holes and everything about them in insane detail and published what he found so that everything about black holes is well known.

[Jack_Simth]

What would happen if somebody made a programmed image of a singularity (as in the center of a black hole). I'm assuming caster and friends wanted to get far away and let the enemy trigger it.

Assume the material plane is like our real life except as outlined in the 3.5 rules.

Assume some powerful wizard studied black holes and everything about them in insane detail and published what he found so that everything about black holes is well known.The guy who triggered it would see a funny light show. Such things can't produce real effects.

Edit: Specifically, Programmed Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/programmedImage.htm) is an Illusion(Figment), and per the School Description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion):
A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier. (Emphasis added)

[Feddlefew]

The implications being that the caster has seen a singularity? That's terrifying. What would that even look like?

Depending on the rules being used there might be a save against SAN loss, but otherwise it'd be harmless.

[Lightlawbliss]

The guy who triggered it would see a funny light show. Such things can't produce real effects.
I'm trying to figure out what the funny light show is. My players did exactly what I described and I'm trying to figure out what the BBEG is going to say about it in the big monologue. Sory, probably should have included that in the first post.


...What would that even look like?... That is the problem I'm faced with.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm trying to figure out what the funny light show is. My players did exactly what I described and I'm trying to figure out what the BBEG is going to say about it in the big monologue. Sory, probably should have included that in the first post.

That is the problem I'm faced with.
Oh. Sorry, most the time I've heard similar questions it's because someone's used to an edition where in failing a save vs. an illusion means it affects you as though it were not one (at least up until the point where you go unconscious because you think you're dead).

Well, it depends on which theory of physics you subscribe to.

In some, the inside of a black hole basically becomes a sub-universe (which may include other black holes).
In some, what's inside a black hole is shrinking at the speed of light until the death of the black hole by Hawking Radiation.
There's others.


The implications being that the caster has seen a singularity? That's terrifying.Eh, not really all that hard for a 9th level caster.

See, the same equations that predict that an object falling into a black hole and hitting the event horizon gets superheated and spagettified... also predict that an observer falling into a black hole and hitting the event horizon experiences very little of note. Astral Project, Shapechange into a nice solid construct, Greater Teleport, fall in. At a predetermined time, a simulacrum dispels the Astral Projection, bringing you back.

[Lightlawbliss]

Oh. Sorry, most the time I've heard similar questions it's because someone's used to an edition where in failing a save vs. an illusion means it affects you as though it were not one (at least up until the point where you go unconscious because you think you're dead).
No problem, it is a reasonable interpretation from what I said.



Well, it depends on which theory of physics you subscribe to.

In some, the inside of a black hole basically becomes a sub-universe (which may include other black holes).
In some, what's inside a black hole is shrinking at the speed of light until the death of the black hole by Hawking Radiation.
There's others.

I don't think the sub-universe version of black holes has singularities which would make an illusion of a singularity rather difficult.



Eh, not really all that hard for a 9th level caster.

I'm hoping you mean somebody who casts 9th level spells and not somebody with 9 levels in a casting class



See, the same equations that predict that an object falling into a black hole and hitting the event horizon gets superheated and spagettified... also predict that an observer falling into a black hole and hitting the event horizon experiences very little of note. Astral Project, Shapechange into a nice solid construct, Greater Teleport, fall in. At a predetermined time, a simulacrum dispels the Astral Projection, bringing you back.
And that is assuming you have to go to the black hole to collect the data you want, seeing the singularity is possible (at least in theory) with any magic that let's you see anywhere in the same plane of existence.

[ryu]

Actually all of those things can be achieved at ninth level if you're crazy/determined enough. Part of why I love this system. It's insanity on a stick.

[FocusWolf413]

If you're a shadowcraft mage, you can make a black hole that's 100+% real. Realer than reality. So real it punched a hole straight through reality.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm hoping you mean somebody who casts 9th level spells and not somebody with 9 levels in a casting classCorrect. As opposed to a 6th level caster like a bard, or a 4th level caster like a Paladin.
If you're a shadowcraft mage, you can make a black hole that's 100+% real. Realer than reality. So real it punched a hole straight through reality.Catch being that you're stuck with spell duplication, rather than making arbitrary illusions real.

[KillianHawkeye]

As I recall, the film Interstellar supposedly used a scientifically accurate mathematical model of a black hole to create the computer-generated image of the one in the movie. While its appearance was apparently altered a bit with added brightness and such, it's still the most realistic one ever seen in Sci-Fi.

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/blogs/dnews-files-2014-10-binterstellar-black-hole-670x440-141029-jpg.jpg

[AvatarVecna]

If you're a shadowcraft mage, you can make a black hole that's 100+% real. Realer than reality. So real it punched a hole straight through reality.

To my infinite disappointment, the Shadowcraft Mage class feature that makes your figment spells into shadow spells only does so in regards to letting them mimic certain sections of the conjuration/evocation schools, rather than making real whatever you make the illusion look like; if it's not mimicking a spell, it's merely a normal illusion spell, albeit likely a very effective one.

Of course, if you use Arcane Disciple (Luck) to get Miracle added to your spell list, it becomes a spell you can replicate with your figments...and you don't have to consult a higher power to use it, which means the more powerful uses are, AFAICT, available to you no-questions-asked by RAW, including the "whatever **** you make up" option, which could be "create a black hole".

[NichG]

As DM, my response would be 'so, please describe what they see'. The results are, theres an image of what the wizard thinks it should look like. If the wizard doesn't themselves actually know from experience, there's no guarantee the image would be accurate. It's illusion, not divination.

Similarly, even if the wizard imagined it as bending light (say, around a corner), they're the ones who must decide what is around the corner in the illusion - it could be different from reality.

[Melcar]

What would happen if somebody made a programmed image of a singularity (as in the center of a black hole). I'm assuming caster and friends wanted to get far away and let the enemy trigger it.

Assume the material plane is like our real life except as outlined in the 3.5 rules.

Assume some powerful wizard studied black holes and everything about them in insane detail and published what he found so that everything about black holes is well known.

Well... Since a black hole is invisible, since light cannot escape the tidal forces of space itself collapsing faster than the speed of light, I assume he would (with normal vision) see nothing. Also. The Singularity if an infinitesimal smal point is space, how could one see that, even if light could escape?

Just outside the event horizon orschwarzschild radius a belive light would get bent and thus have a halo of sorts as if you were looking through a coke bottle...

[Chronos]

Magic that lets you see anywhere on the same plane isn't good enough, for two reasons. First, a singularity isn't on the same plane. It's where the plane isn't. Second, you don't just need anywhere, you need anywhen: The singularity is in the future. And while there are a few D&D spells that give you information about the future, I don't think any of them gives you full vision.

So, the wizard doesn't actually know what a singularity looks like, if that's even meaningful. Like anyone else, he can take a guess. But that's his guess, and so if he tells you he's making an illusion of a singularity, then he needs to tell you what he thinks it looks like, not you telling him.

[Jack_Simth]

Of course, if you use Arcane Disciple (Luck) to get Miracle added to your spell list, it becomes a spell you can replicate with your figments...and you don't have to consult a higher power to use it, which means the more powerful uses are, AFAICT, available to you no-questions-asked by RAW, including the "whatever **** you make up" option, which could be "create a black hole".

Well, that's where things get interesting. The effect specifies the sorcerer/wizard list rather than your class list, in determining what it can duplicate.

In some interpretations, this means that if you're a Sorcerer or a Wizard, then adding it to your list adds it to the Sor/Wiz list, and you're good. This same logic also means that if you ban Evocation, you can make no use of Shadow Evocation (banning a school removes the spells from your list in 3.5; if the Sorcerer Wizard list refers to yours, then if you banned it, there's nothing to duplicate).

In other interpretations, the Sorcerer/Wizard list referenced is the general Sor/Wiz list. Arcane Disciple doesn't help you out, but you can use Shadow Evocation to duplicate Fireball even if you banned Evocation (you're using the general list in spell duplication, so it doesn't matter that you banned evocation, Shadow Evocation still works just fine).

TO exercises always assume that fuzzy rules fall in their favour, so that's what's used for that particular TO build. At a real table, though, it's DM's call.

TLDR: Your mileage may vary, talk to your DM.

[Lightlawbliss]

While this tangent is very interesting, my original question hasn't been answered yet. It would be answered if the illusion was of a black hole, but the illusion was just of a singularity. From what I have read, I'm getting the impression it would just look like a speck of dust but that doesn't really feel like a fitting description.

[Jack_Simth]

While this tangent is very interesting, my original question hasn't been answered yet. It would be answered if the illusion was of a black hole, but the illusion was just of a singularity. From what I have read, I'm getting the impression it would just look like a speck of dust but that doesn't really feel like a fitting description.

So go with the one that leaves you with a new, expanding universe inside.

[Strigon]

It depends an awful lot on the size of the singularity; if we're talking about a black hole, what you'd see is vastly different than a singularity that could exist on Earth, because even as dense as they are, they're still massive.
The effects would differ strongly depending on the size and the exact density; is it marble sized, the size of a grain of sand, bowling ball sized...?

[Melcar]

While this tangent is very interesting, my original question hasn't been answered yet. It would be answered if the illusion was of a black hole, but the illusion was just of a singularity. From what I have read, I'm getting the impression it would just look like a speck of dust but that doesn't really feel like a fitting description.

A singularity fills an infinitly small space... that cant be seen. And creating one would, depending of mass, result a black hole.

For it to become a singularity any matter would have to be crushed beyond its schwarzschild radius, but when that happened it would continue to collaps into a smaller and smaller point in space. Therefore you cant see it.

[Jack_Simth]

A singularity fills an infinitly small space... that cant be seen. And creating one would, depending of mass, result a black hole.

For it to become a singularity any matter would have to be crushed beyond its schwarzschild radius, but when that happened it would continue to collaps into a smaller and smaller point in space. Therefore you cant see it.

There are a few different theories on what exists on the other side of an event horizon, but no known test to distinguish. Well, sort of. That's actually part of what the Large Hadron Collider is checking for - the minimum size of black holes, as certain of the theories that say what happens on the other side also imply a minimum size of a black hole. If they get evidence of one below that, it rules out those theories.

[Melcar]

There are a few different theories on what exists on the other side of an event horizon, but no known test to distinguish. Well, sort of. That's actually part of what the Large Hadron Collider is checking for - the minimum size of black holes, as certain of the theories that say what happens on the other side also imply a minimum size of a black hole. If they get evidence of one below that, it rules out those theories.

True enough, but logically (to me at least) is the math behind it. For it to be a black hole, would result in no matter withstanding the gravitational pull... The gravitational force become infinitely strong... to the point of a dimentional space...

[zergling.exe]

This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you.

Your player is supposed to tell you what it looks like. Even if they describe something, you should get additional details from them if it is not clear enough for you. The wizard may not know what a singularity or black hole looks like, so what does the wizard think they look like?

[Jack_Simth]

True enough, but logically (to me at least) is the math behind it. For it to be a black hole, would result in no matter withstanding the gravitational pull... The gravitational force become infinitely strong... to the point of a dimentional space...
All theories involved have various maths behind them. There's few ways to distinguish which one is "right".

Fortunately, this is for a game, so we don't have to. The DM simply needs to pick one and move on.

[noob]

What if I cast mirage arcana:

This spell functions like hallucinatory terrain, except that it enables you to make any area appear to be something other than it is. The illusion includes audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements. Unlike hallucinatory terrain, the spell can alter the appearance of structures (or add them where none are present). Still, it can’t disguise, conceal, or add creatures (though creatures within the area might hide themselves within the illusion just as they can hide themselves within a real location).
If I add an illusion of structure which is infinitely massive(it might even be a black hole initially) will it collapse in the illusion under the form of an illusion of a black hole and then it make people have all the audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements from being sucked in a black hole without any other physical effect.

[Deophaun]

I think to be accurate, it needs to be a glamer, not a figment, as a proper black hole would make anything that approaches it seem to slow down.

[Jack_Simth]

What if I cast mirage arcana:
If I add an illusion of structure which is infinitely massive(it might even be a black hole initially) will it collapse in the illusion under the form of an illusion of a black hole and then it make people have all the audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements from being sucked in a black hole without any other physical effect.
And it still has no real effect. Trees don't move, the ground doesn't shift, they're not pulled into it. Which basically means they've got proof it's not real, and auto-pass their saves. They get an exciting move clip.

[noob]

I think to be accurate, it needs to be a glamer, not a figment, as a proper black hole would make anything that approaches it seem to slow down.

mirage arcana is an Illusion (Glamer).


A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
so they feel the audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory effects of a black hole directly and they see everything fall in the black hole even if it does not and in fact would not even see anything since the black hole seems to absorb all light(unless they have dark vision)
However their Proprioception kicks in as well as many other senses(like a dozen or more) which are not tricked.
And they instantly have their Will disbelief (if interacted with) save but they can fail it and still have the curious feeling of falling in a black hole for 5 of his senses but not for the dozens of senses all the game designers forgets.
This would be probably intensely nausea inducing.
(If such thing was possible in real life I might sign up for that.)

[Melcar]

All theories involved have various maths behind them. There's few ways to distinguish which one is "right".

Fortunately, this is for a game, so we don't have to. The DM simply needs to pick one and move on.

First of all I wanna make clear that I'm not a student of physics, just very interested, so I have done some research into the matter, not saying you havent but I'm going to state my case anyway :smallbiggrin:

The math I'm talking about is the math related to weight/mass and radius, thus standard gravity math. Which basically states that the smaller the radius if the weight is the same the gravitational pull increases. At one point the Schwartchild radius, the gravity becomes strunger than the nuclear forces (i think its called). The result in an collaps, which in turn decreases the radius, increasing gravity... this prosses continues. The problem is, that this means infinite gravity in an infinitly small space. Thats the math. What actually goes on inside... or beyong the event horizon I have no clue.. But I'm pretty sure the math around gravity is sound. While looking for the math I found this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WbrujNXSw8&list=FLL30DxR4CwtoXz0HsEEgBZw&index=7)... I think its worth a view if you can spare a few (many) minutes. And again I cant be 100% sure of the statements, I've just made, but the math looks good to me. :smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Simth]

First of all I wanna make clear that I'm not a student of physics, just very interested, so I have done some research into the matter, not saying you havent but I'm going to state my case anyway :smallbiggrin:

The math I'm talking about is the math related to weight/mass and radius, thus standard gravity math. Which basically states that the smaller the radius if the weight is the same the gravitational pull increases. At one point the Schwartchild radius, the gravity becomes strunger than the nuclear forces (i think its called). The result in an collaps, which in turn decreases the radius, increasing gravity... this prosses continues. The problem is, that this means infinite gravity in an infinitly small space. Thats the math. What actually goes on inside... or beyong the event horizon I have no clue.. But I'm pretty sure the math around gravity is sound. While looking for the math I found this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WbrujNXSw8&list=FLL30DxR4CwtoXz0HsEEgBZw&index=7)... I think its worth a view if you can spare a few (many) minutes. And again I cant be 100% sure of the statements, I've just made, but the math looks good to me. :smallbiggrin:

Well, there's basically three major mixed-up theories of reality involved, roughly like so:

Relativity (which is almost entirely about space, time, light, and gravity on very large scales) + (Quantum Mechanics vs. String Theory) (both of which deal primarily particles on very small scales)

... and they don't really mix well. What happens in there depends on which one you go with, who's doing the thought experiment, and what assumptions they're starting with. You'll get everything from a goopy sorta-liquid mess to what amounts to a mathematical point to a hole in the universe to a micro universe and a few other things.

[ryu]

Don't forget that while quantum mechanics are undeniably dominant, there's a split between many worlds interpretation which came out more recently and the alternative, less elegant version which came earlier.

[Deophaun]

mirage arcana is an Illusion (Glamer).

That specifically does not change the appearance of creatures, which are the things you want to appear to slow down. So, no dice.

[Melcar]

Well, there's basically three major mixed-up theories of reality involved, roughly like so:

Relativity (which is almost entirely about space, time, light, and gravity on very large scales) + (Quantum Mechanics vs. String Theory) (both of which deal primarily particles on very small scales)

... and they don't really mix well. What happens in there depends on which one you go with, who's doing the thought experiment, and what assumptions they're starting with. You'll get everything from a goopy sorta-liquid mess to what amounts to a mathematical point to a hole in the universe to a micro universe and a few other things.

True... relativity does not "function" inside black holes and before the Big Bang, but the process for increasing gravity does, at least the to point of creation of the black hole. The reason relativity does not function to describe what happens inside is explicitly because of the infinite part. Thats a number that does not work with relativity. But, for me it would seem logical (in lack of a btter word) that mass continues its collaps.

Do you know the other theories well enough to shed some light on what... that math says about what goes on beyond the event horizon?

[Chronos]

Special relativity actually works just fine with quantum mechanics. I mean, sure, it gets complicated, but it's still all stuff that a physics grad student can pick up in a single class. It's only general relativity and quantum mechanics that seem to have a conflict. There have been many attempts to resolve that conflict, including the string model, but nobody has any clue whether any of those attempts actually work (and if so, which ones), because nobody's been able to come up with any practically doable experiment to test them.

And which interpretation you take of quantum mechanics (Many Worlds or otherwise) doesn't change the compatibility with GR (or lack thereof) at all. All interpretations of quantum mechanics lead to the exact same results, even for completely impractical experiments. If someone came out with an interpretation that didn't give the same results, nobody would take it seriously, at least until someone managed to actually do the experiments that show the difference. Now, some interpretations make it easier to set up some calculations than others, and some might be more intuitive than others (for any given intuition), but they're ultimately all the same.