3.P Balance of evasion requiring an immediate action but allowing movement

[Da Beast]

This is a house rule I was considering to add more reactive abilities to mundane characters. While spellcasters are pulling out wings of cover or ruin delvers fortune most mundane characters don't have a lot to do with their immediate actions. I'm unsure how exactly to implement it and what improved evasion should do with this. Maybe regular evasion allows this only on a successful reflex save but improved just makes it available all the time with no need to react to a particular trigger. Obviously this could negate one enemy's actions per round and make full attacks impossible against some characters. I'm thinking that his might need to be paired with a reduction in bonus move speed for monks since they're a popular gestalt at my table or maybe give it a cost like one level of fatigue. Has anyone tried something like this?

[SangoProduction]

This is a house rule I was considering to add more reactive abilities to mundane characters. While spellcasters are pulling out wings of cover or ruin delvers fortune most mundane characters don't have a lot to do with their immediate actions. I'm unsure how exactly to implement it and what improved evasion should do with this. Maybe regular evasion allows this only on a successful reflex save but improved just makes it available all the time with no need to react to a particular trigger. Obviously this could negate one enemy's actions per round and make full attacks impossible against some characters. I'm thinking that his might need to be paired with a reduction in bonus move speed for monks since they're a popular gestalt at my table or maybe give it a cost like one level of fatigue. Has anyone tried something like this?

I'm mostly confused. So, you say mundanes don't have anything to use immediate actions on so you are nerfing evasion to be an immediate action? How would that prevent full attacks? A different suggestion could be to allow, as an immediate action, evasion to ignore the roll and just affect the triggering effect as though it were a success save.

Monk speed also isn't a big deal (generally) as speed isn't a combat stat, its progression really slow and traveling is only as fast as the slowest person.

You are saying it is a big deal at your table so we clearly need more information.

[HammeredWharf]

Don't nerf monks.

As for Evasion, you could give it an extra feature: by spending an immediate action after a successful Evasion, you can move up to your speed. Making it require an action would, again, be a nerf to martial characters. Don't nerf martial characters.

[OldTrees1]

This is a house rule I was considering to add more reactive abilities to mundane characters. While spellcasters are pulling out wings of cover or ruin delvers fortune most mundane characters don't have a lot to do with their immediate actions. I'm unsure how exactly to implement it and what improved evasion should do with this. Maybe regular evasion allows this only on a successful reflex save but improved just makes it available all the time with no need to react to a particular trigger. Obviously this could negate one enemy's actions per round and make full attacks impossible against some characters. I'm thinking that his might need to be paired with a reduction in bonus move speed for monks since they're a popular gestalt at my table or maybe give it a cost like one level of fatigue. Has anyone tried something like this?

1) You were considering adding more reactive abilities (ones that use the immediate action) to mundane characters
2) You see mundanes not having much use for their immediate actions
3) You decide to nerf some of their always-on abilities by reducing them to reactive abilities.

1+2 makes sense
2+3 is spiteful
1+3 is nonsensical

Go back to your original plan of adding some new reactive abilities. So instead of changing evasion/improved evasion, add a new ability that is something like "Dodge:Immediate Action: Reflex save to halve damage from the attack (Evasion and Improved Evasion apply which makes it less dipable)".

To ward off gestalt based balance problems, buff the mundanes so that a mundane//mundane recieves 2x the rising tide as a caster//mundane.

Sidenote: Immediate Actions are limited to 1/round and thus not a very useful mechanic for reactive abilities. AoOs are a much better reactive mechanic resource than Immediate actions (your class features would be replacing the attack effect). However even AoOs are not an indeal reactive mechanical resource, so maybe you will think of an even better system.

[Jormengand]

The 10th-level Disciple of the Word ability allows you to do this, if you can make a fairly high truespeak check and spend one of your stunning fists. Allowing monks and rogues to do it randomly might not be a good thing, but then monks suck anyway.

[nedz]

Nerfing Evasion would improve Blasting which is one of the weaker caster options.
This would hit Caster/Rogues who may have a use for immediate actions.
Casters would now like to hit Rogues with 2 Reflex AoEs per round - as an obvious exploit.

[Da Beast]

I think people are missing the point, evasion would now allow someone to move up to their speed while it's not their turn. This is not strictly a nerf as it gives extra mobility options. This would be a godsend to two weapon fighting rogues who can now get into position and full attack every round.

[John Longarrow]

OP,

Can you post the text of how you want this to work? That should clear up any misunderstandings. It would also be the text you would include in your houserules handout.

[Da Beast]

OP,

Can you post the text of how you want this to work? That should clear up any misunderstandings. It would also be the text you would include in your houserules handout.

I haven't written such a thing yet since I'm still not sure how I want this to work. The basic idea is that when a character uses evasion they take an immediate action to move up to their speed. I'm not sure if this should still allow the normal benefits of evasion even when the immediate action isn't used; if I want to let people move whenever they feel like it or only with a successful reflex save as a trigger; or how improved evasion should figure into things.

[GreyBlack]

To be honest? Make it an option, not a must thing. Append to the text of evasion, "If this character makes a successful reflex save, they may choose to spend an immediate action. If they do, the character may move up to their movement speed at no further cost beyond the immediate action." This makes it an option and doesn't autonerf the always-on functionality of evasion.

[Zaydos]

It makes it so that the only sort of melee threat that's a threat is a character which has improved evasion themselves because otherwise you autonegate their action, or that can swarm you. It goes further, though, if you do combats that are not in wide open fields without obstacles to block line of effect as it allows you to move out of line of sight or line of effect to dodge spells and ranged attacks as well. I'd say it probably does nothing to help the play state other than push improved evasion towards a must have for melee and makes it so melee enemies are less of a threat than they already are, and with ranged combat forces you to make terrain far less tactical or everything becomes a mess of using readied actions to negate the ability.

I'd instead possibly suggest granting swift action movement options to certain classes if your intent is to do things like make 2WF Full attack easier, and possibly create some new immediate action abilities for non-casters. Idea that comes to mind is a dodge bonus to AC or save based on class that can be used as an immediate action (Fighter might get AC/Fort/Will, Barbarian gets AC/Fort, Rogue gets AC/Ref, Monk gets AC/Ref/Will, etc). Possibly make a skill trick that requires evasion and allows immediate action movement with the limitations of skill tricks (1/encounter, PrCs can give limited extra uses).

[Jormengand]

Incidentally, this makes it a possible strategy to launch a burning hands at your own ally because it grants him a free move.

[GreyBlack]

Incidentally, this makes it a possible strategy to launch a burning hands at your own ally because it grants him a free move.

Assuming he doesn't roll a natural 1.

[John Longarrow]

For myself, I don't think it is an appropriate use. You make a Ref save and it give you movement doesn't seem... right.

I could see burning your immediate to do a second 5' adjust after doing a full round action. Cannot be sequential to your 5' adjust though. This would let you move in, hit, move back.

[nedz]

I think people are missing the point, evasion would now allow someone to move up to their speed while it's not their turn. This is not strictly a nerf as it gives extra mobility options. This would be a godsend to two weapon fighting rogues who can now get into position and full attack every round.

By making Evasion an immediate action you limit it to only being used 1/round and stop it's use when flat-footed. This is a nerf.

The opposing wizard would see more mileage in fireballing the party during any surprise round, since they cannot now evade the flames, which does improve blasting a little.

[martixy]

I think people are missing the point, evasion would now allow someone to move up to their speed while it's not their turn. This is not strictly a nerf as it gives extra mobility options. This would be a godsend to two weapon fighting rogues who can now get into position and full attack every round.

I think it is strictly nonsensical to require enemies to hit you with reflex-save-able spells to trigger your bonus movement abilities.

We do get the point. It is just not a very well designed option given your intent vs. the result you'd be getting.

There are other ways of granting more combat choices than just "I move to my enemy and poke it with a pointy stick."

Your options are many: Make various combat maneuvers more impactful and fun to use. Alleviate feat taxes. Use Called shots. Come up with new feats, new systems, appropriate old ones or variant rules. (If you're interested I'll post a few things I've come up with).

[HammeredWharf]

I think people are missing the point, evasion would now allow someone to move up to their speed while it's not their turn. This is not strictly a nerf as it gives extra mobility options. This would be a godsend to two weapon fighting rogues who can now get into position and full attack every round.

Depends on how strict one wants to be. No, it's not just a nerf. However, it makes Evasion much, much weaker. Let's see why:

1) It becomes a 1/round thing
2) You can't evade while flat-footed
3) It blocks you from using other immediate actions
4) Movement is ok, but not getting killed is better

The third point is quite important, too, because especially rogues could have a ton of magical items - like wands - that use immediate actions. They might also want to pick some immediate action abilities, such as Protection Devotion or maneuvers. All of these would conflict with Evasion. Not good.

[Mr Adventurer]

Evasion: when you sucessfully evade damage from an area attack using this ability, you may spend your Immediate action to move up to half your land speed. If you do this, you are prone at the end of your movement.

Improved Evasion: when you spend your Immediate action, you may move up to your full land speed (instead of half) and may choose whether to be prone at the end. Whenever you take half damage from an area attack thanks to this ability you may take a free 5' step.