Maximum Gish

[ManicOppressive]

I'm big into Gishes. BIG into gishes. If you don't know what a gish is, it's a character that is designed to be able to cast spells and fight in combat simultaneously. In 3.5, they're generally focused on arcane magic.

The baseline for Gishes is often put at 16 BAB/9th level casting, because that's the minimum point at which you can't just play a Druid and be better. Of course, Druids ARE still better because they can just cast Divine Power, but that's neither here nor there.

So I've spent a lot of time trying to optimize the perfect Gish. Obviously the holy grail would be BAB of 20 and 9th level casting, but to my knowledge that is not actually possible as not a single class with 9th level casting has +1 BAB at level 1. (If you're about to suggest Abjurant Champion for maxing BAB, you need to reread that ability. Go ahead. I'll wait.)

I have, however, managed to come very close, and on what I believe to be a fairly playable character to boot. Note that my builds rely on one solitary houserule, which is that BAB is calculated as a whole rather than at each individual level. That is to say, all of your class levels at 3/4 BAB are put together, so a Cleric 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 1 would have 2 BAB rather than 0. If you're not okay with this "houserule" (in quotation marks because everyone I know uses this) feel free to ignore it in your builds. I'll post notes next to the builds saying what they are without this.

So: GIVE ME YOUR GISH. Cheese is fine, Pun-Pun is not, and get your weak-ass Divine Power out of here, we're not interested in Druids or Clerics.

Dusk Chord - ManicOppressive

Duskblade 8/Spellsinger 1/Swiftblade 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 2/Spellsinger 1/Spelldancer 1

Caster Level: 20
BAB: 19 (18 without BAB fix)
Highest Spell Level: 9, from entire Sorcerer list

Pros: Swiftblade and Spelldancer additions give tons of metamagic options, including cheese with Persistent spells and wonderful quickened Hastes.

Use a Spiked Chain to allow STR to be dumped, and enjoy throwing Touch Spells with your attacks from 20 ft away.

Duskblade gives some incredible class features before 8.

Also the maximum possible BAB with 9th level spells through class combinations alone.

Cons: Looks messy and cheesy on paper. 4 PrCs and 1 class isn't as horrible as some, but the strange order they come in can turn people off.

Relies on Sublime Chord for casting, which gives a pretty small Spells Known pool, but what are you gonna do.

Five [!] feats: Improved Counterspell, Skill Focus (Perform) (This one can and should be snuck around with Complete Scoundrel's feat granting magic sites, because this feat is awful), Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Casting. (This one is provided by Duskblade.)

Heavy skill taxing, but mostly in skills you wanted anyway. Except Profession (Astrologer). What the heck is that?

Kinda MAD. Needs Charisma maxed for lategame casting, but needs good Int for Duskblade casting. Also needs Dexterity for hitting things. Strength and Wisdom can be largely dumped, and Con doesn't need a heavy investment because you'll have good AC and dodge chance.

So what's your best Gish?

[Albions_Angel]

They are lacking in spells, but Dusk Blade is about as perfect as it gets, speaking from the point of view of "dont optimize, just let the class do its thing". Full BAB, decent set of spells, a little MAD, but thats ok. In a low power game, they wreck face, in a high power game, they can still be made to be effective.

Nothing like Shocking Grasp with a Guisarme at level 3.

Gets better with Gestalt. Take Sorc or Wiz as your alternate class and boom, you have yourself a powerhouse full of spells to channel. Or grab some cleric to play with smacking your friends to heal them and buff them.

I think its actually one of the better classes 3.5 produced outside of core and the tomes. Certainly seems their best attempt at a class that IS a Gish.

[Vizzerdrix]

Mystic Ranger is a good one. Maybe top it off with Nar Demonbinder. I think that is a legal build. AFB right now so I can't check.

[Twurps]

I don't really have a build to contribute, but just wanted to point out that the 'houserule' concerning BAB you mention sounds to me like the 'Fractional BAB' rule in unearthed arcane, so not really a houserule. (And yes, just about everybody uses it in one form or another)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mystic Ranger is a good one. Maybe top it off with Nar Demonbinder. I think that is a legal build. AFB right now so I can't check.
Mystic Ranger (Sword of the Arcane Order) is about as perfect a gish as you can get for the first half of the game-- you get full caster progression and full BAB, and light armor if you dip Spellsword at some point. After you hit 5th level spells, hop into Sublime Chord (which, coincidentally, requires ECL 10) and finish out with the usual medley of Abjurant Champion and, oh, Knight Phantom. Something like

Mystic Ranger 6/Spellsword 1/Mystic Ranger +3/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 4.

[Jormengand]

If you're prepared to read "9th level casting" as "9th level psionics" try psion 8/slayer 10/something with full BAB 2. You get some neat immunities too (immunity to divination and clairsentience is frankly ludicrous in some games).

[John Longarrow]

A default build I use is
Crusader (1)
Wizard (4)
Warblade (1)
Spell Sword (1)
Dragon Slayer (1)
Abjurant Champion (5)
Eldritch Knight (7)

Gives BAB 18, CL 17.

Replace Warblade with 2 levels of wizard and only go 6 in EK and you get BAB 17 and CL 18.

Crusader is in there because their healing stance isn't bad even at mid levels. Warblade is there to ignore hardness with single attacks. I build off of Wizard to have the versatility of full access to all those spells. With 6 levels in wizard you get a free feat so depending on campaign it may be worth it over the 'I ignore the golems DR'. The feat tax can be front loaded (Iron Will, Dodge, Combat Casting) with in game reasons for it.

With your build, can you slip Dragon Slayer in? Immunity to fear can be a life saver in some games.

[gorfnab]

Bards make decent gishes.
Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8

[Hiro Quester]

Nice build. You seem to be taking Spellsinger for the bardic music ability, to qualify for sublime chord.

One possible problem is whether Spellsinger grants bardic music abilities, or just advances it.

Another problem is that duskblade can't cast haste, required for swiftblade. But you could overcome that with a knowstone or a custom runestaff and UMD (not on duskblade' class skills, though).

Another option for bardic music is Heartfire Fanner (DragonMag 314). Gives you the bardic music of a 5th level bard, and all bardic music abilities (incl. fascinate, inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness) become available to you as long as you meet the perform ranks requirements. Plus you get a bardic music that grants fighter bonus feats to your allies.

Same casting and BAB advancement. But more bardic music flavor.

Oh. Hang on. It requires 10 ranks in perform and diplomacy, which would be difficult. Prob take a flaw to get apprentice entertainer feat, to get perform and diplomacy on your skill list for all classes.

But the 10 ranks requirement means you can't take it at 9th, so it delays sublime chord a level.

So another caster level lost. You might not want that. Though the bardic music buffs might add to your combat abilities (and those of your friends) In a welcome way. And you would still get one 9th level spell.

[Cerefel]

One of my personal favorite gish builds is

fighter 1/bard 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 3/eldritch knight 1/sublime chord 1/abjurant champion 2/eldritch knight 7

[ManicOppressive]

Nice build. You seem to be taking Spellsinger for the bardic music ability, to qualify for sublime chord.

One possible problem is whether Spellsinger grants bardic music abilities, or just advances it.

I'd definitely argue pretty strongly that Spellsinger grants Bardic Music. The wording is a little ambiguous to the point, but it does say it stacks with existing, not that it advances existing, and 1 + 0 is still = 1.



Another problem is that duskblade can't cast haste, required for swiftblade. But you could overcome that with a knowstone or a custom runestaff and UMD (not on duskblade' class skills, though).


I'll be honest, it never even occurred to me that Duskblade might not have Haste, so I didn't even check. If your DM won't let you use Haste as a Duskblade (seriously I don't understand how that is not on the list) then just grab Arcane Disciple (Time) or Extra Spell for it, not a big deal.

[John Longarrow]

The text on SpellSinger is that it advances your bardic music based on your level in Bard (or the class that grants bardic music). It is a lot like +1 Caster Level with Dragon Slayer. It doesn't grant you bardic music, it just advances bardic music you already have.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can make really nice steel dragon gishes. A spellhoarding loredrake wyrmling steel dragon is 4 HD, LA +2 (buy-off!), and casts as a wizard 3. Depending on your view on progressing racial casting with PrCs, that means you can get 20 bab and CL 18 (follow up with spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/eldritch knight or whatever), or 19 bab and CL 18 (wizard 1/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/etc.).

[Rebel7284]

Try Duskblade 9/Warrior Skald 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/Bladesinger 1

19 BAB, full sublime chord casting. No questions about bardic music.

Honestly, after getting the 4th attack, the last two levels just hold you back. You end up with a better character replacing those two with anything that progresses casting without a huge feat tax.

[WhamBamSam]

If you're prepared to read "9th level casting" as "9th level psionics" try psion 8/slayer 10/something with full BAB 2. You get some neat immunities too (immunity to divination and clairsentience is frankly ludicrous in some games).Ranger or Track Variant Paladin/Ardent/Slayer/Sanctified Mind is a bit more limited in terms of Powers Known, but it's hard to top in terms of PsiGishing. Due to the way Ardent Manifesting works you never fall behind on your maximum level of Powers Known with Practiced Manifester, and you only lose a single point of BAB.

For me, Gishing doesn't really boil down to the 16 BAB/9th level spells thing. That's certainly nice, but substantive numbers were never really what gishing was about, because if it were just about substance, then not losing Caster Levels would always be superior.

No my friends, Gishing is about style.

With that in mind, here are a few Gish builds that I really like which don't really go for the classical Gish benchmarks.

Primordial Half-Giant Factotum 3/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/Dungeoncrasher Fighter +4. Requires either a flaw for Human Heritage or the alternate rule in Races of Destiny giving half-human characters the Human subtype, so you can take Able Learner and Chameleon. Wall of Stone is a 3rd level spell on the Trapsmith list, meaning you can quicken it with only a Least Metamagic Rod. So you can throw up a wall next to a line of enemies, then use Whirling Blade to Dungeoncrash them all into it (which you qualify for by virtue of Powerful Build. You can also get Iaijutsu Damage on the attack if your opponent is flat-footed and you can manage the weapon drawing aspect, since you are after all a Factotum with Able Learner. Chameleon casting isn't as powerful as some classes, but 6th level spells off every list is nothing to sneeze at.

Neraph, Otherworldly Human, or Otherworldly Grey Elf Archivist 4/Ordained Champion 3/Earth Dreamer 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. More Whirling Blade shenanigans. Ordained Champion lets us channel a spell into the Whirling Blade before we let it fly (it *probably* only affects one of the enemies hit with the Whirling Blade, but it's still nice). The Brilliant Blade spell and Earth Dreamer's Earth Sight ability allow for launching your Whirling Blade through walls. BAB is just 13, but you don't full attack so it doesn't really matter.

Half-Elf Paragon 1/Marshal 1/Sha'ir 3/Half-Elf Paragon +1/Ordained Champion 3/Earth Dreamer 5/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 1/Abjurant Champion 4. A much less elegant version of the build above, which crams in Iaijutsu Focus. Half-Elf Paragon's non-specific bonus feat allows us to take both Aereni Focus (Iaijutsu Focus) and Human Heritage at first level, the latter being necessary for Southern Magician (yes, I'm aware it's cross setting with Aereni Focus), which allows for the casting of Magic Weapon (and later Protection From Evil) as a divine spell (Sha'ir is a divine spellcasting class and so can be progressed by Ordained Champion natively, it just needs Southern Magician to qualify). You can also rock Spirited Charge on your Whirling Blade attacks because of how screwy the mounted charge rules are (especially fun if you can work out a way of making a lance count as a slashing weapon).

Gravetouched Ghoul Human Martial Enhanced Undead Necromancer 5/Incantatrix 8/Earth Dreamer 5. Persisted Draconic Polymorph into an Ibraldin (Monsters of Faerun, can branch out a bit with forms at higher levels) to make yourself Gargantuan. Use the Area Attack feat (wielding a sufficiently large paralyzed enemy as an improvised weapon) to deliver Contagious Paralysis, Knock-down, and Fell X Blade of Blood to a large area of enemies. Brilliant Blade allows your Area Attack to swing through walls and to pass harmlessly through your own undead minions.

Gravetouched Ghoul Human Martial Wizard/Incantatrix 3/Effigy Master 5/Earth Dreamer 5. As above but with a focus on Effigies/Constructs as the Brilliant Blade-proof minions.

Star Elf Cloistered Cleric 1/Duskblade 3/Ordained Champion 3/Arcane Archer 2/Divine Crusader 1/Contemplative 1/Prestige Ranger 2/Seeker of the Misty Isle 7. Perhaps the elfiest Elf to ever Elf. Elvencraft Longbow cheese allows us to use Ordained Champion's Channel Spell and to make Iaijutsu attacks (acquired through Aereni Focus again) with it. Use some means of drawing that longbow as a free action (Quick Draw or a Least Crystal of Return, most likely), then unload two spells on an attack either at range (Imbue Arrow+Ordained Champ's Channel Spell) or in melee (Duskblade's Channel Spell+Ordained Champion's Channel Spell) on a respectable attack with iaijutsu damage for added style points.

Dragonborn Silverbrow Human Stalwart Dragonblood Battle Sorcerer 5/Swordsage 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Full Casting medium BAB 4. Drop Draconic Heritage from Dragonblood Sorcerer for your required dropped feat and trade Weapon Focus from Stalwart Sorcerer for Dragon Tail when undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. Intersperse JPM levels as necessary for desired maneuvers. Pretty basic Sorcerer/JPM build, but this one is set up for the combo of Arcane Thesis Fell XYZ Sudden Maximized Empowerd (by Empowering Strike) Ghostly Tail+Defensive Rebuke+Desert Tempest. Ghostly Tail is hours/level and makes a melee touch attack to deal 2d6 Force damage (+CL up to 20 if you're a Dragon or Dragonblooded) whenever someone performs an action that would provoke an AoO from you, critically (and explicitly), even if you aren't wielding a weapon that threatens them at the time. With Defensive Rebuke+Desert Tempest, you can make it so that a bunch of your enemies will be forced to move to attack you, likely provoking an AoO from your reach weapon and tasting the Ghostly Tail, or else provoke an AoO and taste the Ghostly Tail as a result of attacking your allies. Having used a strike maneuver (Desert Tempest), you can Empower a spell on the following round. If you don't mind losing 9th level spells, consider going all the way to JPM 10 for Quickening Strike and other goodies.

I also have a lot of appreciation for this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286800-Merry-Gishmas!-19-BAB-9th-level-spells-and-full-attack-channeling) gish build by Piggy Knowles, which does hit the classic benchmarks (19 BAB and scraping 9ths with chicanery) while still getting Full Attack Channeling.

[ManicOppressive]

The text on SpellSinger is that it advances your bardic music based on your level in Bard (or the class that grants bardic music). It is a lot like +1 Caster Level with Dragon Slayer. It doesn't grant you bardic music, it just advances bardic music you already have.

"Stacks with" is definitely not the same as advances, and stacks is the wording used. Like I said, I'll grant that it's ambiguous, but it's also unique in being a class that stacks bardic music while not actually requiring bardic music, so it's hard to look at other classes (like virtuoso or sc) for similar rules.

[MisterKaws]

Human Paragon 1(Adp. Learn. Perform(Swordplay))/Duskblade 6/Virtuoso 1/Duskblade +1/Human Paragon +1(Duskblade adv.)/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Human Paragon +1(Subl. Chord adv.)/Dragonslayer 1(Subl. Chord Adv)/Sublime Chord +1/Virtuoso +1(Subl. Chord Adv)

This one follows the same principle, but it's totally legal, as long as you have an ultra-pumped int to throw trillions of skill points in Listen at level 10. It's likely to need Nymph's Kiss and Able Learner, but skills are always welcome anyway, and the feat pre-requisites are down to 3(Otyugh hole gives iron will). There's also the extra feat from human paragon, which should probably be used to get Arcane Preparation, because Luminous Armor is just too good to pass.

Edit: Oh noes! Just read virtuoso, and it's also cryptic in description :C

[Ger. Bessa]

Here's my "Ranger", Mr.WishIHadAWord. Fully FR settings, no DragMag.

Race : not exactly 'anything' but there's room fo choice (human is good).
Regional background : the bardic/harper one that grants you one langage (needs that druidic, seems cheesy but the character is rather fluff coherent).

Build :
Ranger 4 (shooting star lv4 substitution level)
Duskblade 1
Knight of the Weave 1
Abjurant Champion 5 progressing KotW. Martial Arcanist sets the Duskblade Caster Level to BAB.
Spelldancer 2 progressing ranger spellcasting.
Fochlucan Lyrist 7 progressing Ranger and KotW.

BAB : 18 (losses at lv 6 and 12)
Duskblade caster level : 18
Knight of the Weave caster level : 18+13 =31
Shooting Star Ranger caster level : 13/2 + 18 + 31 = 55.

buffs undispellable. 18d6 of sneak attack with that spell that everybody gets with unseen seer but is in fact a ranger spell. KotW spell list, ranger spell list. Casts as a lv13 ranger (no lv4) and maxed KotW (so you can go epic magic through KotW). Spelldancer metamagics.

Can also be built with paladin instead of ranger, but the fluff for druidic holds a little less (you're still the FR good guy magic tree loving poster boy). Can also be built as a geo-pally.

How to make it work : the druidic comes from the background, that's the biggest rule stretch of the build.
Feats are nearly all required for prerequisites, but it can be done without flaws. The most frustrating is having to take combat casting because the build has no room for 2 more levels in Duskblade.
Apprentice shouldn't be needed to have the ranks in perform (some sub levels also help) since spell dancer comes at lv12.

The build only uses classes worded with "Caster Level" and not "Spellcaster Level". No ambiguity, no doubt, no contestation possible (that's why there is no Nar Demonbinder/Sublime Chord or Master Spellthief).

Fun fact : FL boosts the ranger CL by 3.5 for each level in it :
0.5 progressing ranger
1 for BAB -> Duskblade \
1 for BAB -> Duskblade -> KotW I => +3 for SS ranger.
1 for progressing KotW /

Of course, if you have mystic ranger and can adapt shooting star to it, it GETS BETTER...

[Hiro Quester]

Fun fact : FL boosts the ranger CL by 3.5 for each level in it :
0.5 progressing ranger
1 for BAB -> Duskblade \
1 for BAB -> Duskblade -> KotW I => +3 for SS ranger.
1 for progressing KotW /



How does it do that? I can't see any reading of FL that grants you this kind of stacking progression of caster level.


Edit: abjurant champ 5 gets your arcane caster level to be equal to BAB (so 18).

But the caster level of the divine class is independant of this, not in addition to it.

And Abj Champ only makes CL = BAB for the arcane class whose casting Abj Champ progresses. You can't use it to progress KotW CASTING, yet make Duskblade CL =BAB.

[Ruethgar]

Well to start, a optimal White Dragonspawn Abomination(ritually added to avoid complications and bought off via Major Red Bloodline as first levels) Awakened Lizard Sorcerer 1/Dragon Mystic 4/Warblade 5/Abj Champ 5/Jade Pheonix Mage 5

You need Miser with Magic, Energy Sub(Cold), Piercing Cold, and the Sorc feat to prep spells. Take Body of the Sun and prepare it as Piercing Cold, cast and reclaim it, now you deal 7d6+2 piercing cold damage on every single melee hit. Cast whatever the heck else you want. You have an ECL of 20 total(with buyoff, 21 without) and cast as a 21st level sorcerer, your BaB is 20 and if max health at level one you have 29 before Con and potentially higher depending on Sorc options.

You only actually need the first level of Dragon Mystic so if you make it. Sorc 1/Drg Myst 1/War 1/Abj Champ 5/JPM 10/Eldritch Knight 2 you can have Sorc 23 casting frac BaB 22 but only get +4d6 damage to melee. If you buyoff the template class as you get it you can technically count as a Ture Dragon for Loredrake with Half Dragon if you really wanted more Sorc casting and Str.

[Mousedigits]

I personally like Duskblade 5/Cleric 2/Ordained Champion 3/Mystic Theurge 10. While, yes, it does rely on Divine Power, but you get: 4th Level Duskblade Spells, 7th level Cleric spells, +20 BAB with Divine Power, a LOT of spells/day, and your full attack goes something like this: Move Action: Cast any spell with a target into your weapon (Channel Spell, Ordained Champion), Standard Action: Cast any touch spell you know into your weapon and strike, delivering both spells. You also have a Quick Cast available, if you want to squeeze one extra spell in there, or if you want to Quickened Dimension-Hop into the fray and nova on the first round. Hell, you could even take DMM: Persist for Divine Power.

-Cons: Not a 9th level caster, and can't cast Arcane spells in Heavy Armor (Unless it's mithral!) Also, kinda MAD.

[Flame of Anor]

your full attack goes something like this: Move Action: Cast any spell with a target into your weapon (Channel Spell, Ordained Champion), Standard Action: Cast any touch spell you know into your weapon and strike, delivering both spells.

Wow! I hadn't realized that you can use both of those at once...and that they apply to any known spells! I may have to steal this one.


can't cast Arcane spells in Heavy Armor (Unless it's mithral!)

Complete Arcane has a feat for that. It's called Battle Caster.

[Ger. Bessa]

How does it do that? I can't see any reading of FL that grants you this kind of stacking progression of caster level.


Edit: abjurant champ 5 gets your arcane caster level to be equal to BAB (so 18).

But the caster level of the divine class is independant of this, not in addition to it.

And Abj Champ only makes CL = BAB for the arcane class whose casting Abj Champ progresses. You can't use it to progress KotW CASTING, yet make Duskblade CL =BAB.

Abjurant Champion sets the Duskblade caster level to 18.
KotW is progressed by Abjurant Champion and FL (as the arcane side) so is CL 13, but KotW also adds your CL in every other Arcane spellcasting class to its own, so he gets the CL 18 added to its 13.

Shooting Star Ranger has a caster level of Class level/2 (so 4 real class levels) + 2 + the sum of every arcane casting Caster Levels. (Champion of Valor). I don't use SotAO because it only works with Wizard.

The "+3.5 cl/lvl" is because FL progress arcane (+1) divine (+0.5 cause Ranger is half-caster) and BAB (+2 because the Duskblade gets +1 so the KotW also gets +1 and so the Ranger gets +2).

And even if it looks impressive, it's FR so red mages do stupid **** like that at ECL 10.

Edit : I'm pretty sure Martial Arcanist says "in a chosen arcane spellcasting class" not "in the spellcasting class that progress...".

[Hiro Quester]

Yeah... I don't think it works that way.


Martial Arcanist (Ex): At 5th level, you master the art of combining your militant and mystical training. From this point on, your caster level in a chosen arcane spellcasting class is equal to your base attack bonus (unless it would otherwise be higher). For example, a 7th-level fighter/1st-level wizard/5th-level abjurant champion has a base attack bonus of +12 (and thus a caster level of 12th). You can apply this benefit to only one arcane class to which you have added spellcasting levels by your advancement as an abjurant champion.

The last line means that your CL for this feature must be the class for which you progress casting. So if your KotW spells are advanced, it's your CL for KotW is added to your duskblade level.

And "unless it would otherwise be higher" means that the CL=BAB is not added to further progression. It only sets a minimum of =BAB. Your caster level otherwise is your levels of duskblade, KotW, AC, and FL, which would be 14. Martial arcanist makes this a minimum of =BAB.

And your divine caster level is also not added to your arcane claster level. The example in the description of the class makes that very clear. Your divine caster level will be your levels of ranger (4) plus FL(7), so as though you were a 11th level ranger.