A Fair Dragon Encounter, Part 2

[Chester]

Hello playground!

This is a follow-up to a thread that I posted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?460297-A-Fair-Dragon-Encounter-(3-5)&highlight=fair+dragon+encounter) a few weeks ago. Information regarding the party composition is on that thread.

The group has discovered that the gold dragon leader of a guild / city government has been either poisoned or infected with some disease that affects only dragons. They are aware that smaller green dragon holds an antidote / cure, as he's the one who orchestrated the plan to begin with. The group has also met a half-dragon kobold servant of the dragon, who serves more out of fear than of loyalty. He knows how to make the cure if given the right ingredient. The group has rightly guessed the source of the ingredient, though I have not as DM agreed to verify this until they try it. (Some party members want me to spell it out for them, but I'm not going to.) The group has options.

Based on the above situation and despite the options available, the group is itching for a dragon fight. I mean, they want it badly. One party member feels that if they win initiative, they can end the battle quickly. Another party member understands the danger and is up for the challenge, even if it means his character's death. Still a third member of the party wants to be absolutely prepared, and has rightly surmised that the dragon would most likely try to eliminate spellcasters first, given the group's limited access to ranged attacks.

Again: I provided this option to fight a dragon because they've clamored for it. It's an option.



This is a juvenile green dragon, level three wizard.
He has taken up residence in an old abandoned Elf outpost. The outpost is essentially a large wooden platform, roughly 100 feet in the air. To access the platform, the party would climb an old rope ladder to the top of a smaller platform, then cross an old rope/wooden bridge to the larger platform.
One vial of the antidote is held by the dragon. Another vial of the antidote is well-hidden on the large platform.
The dragon will be sitting in the tree canopy above the platform when the group arrives.
As far as the dragon's tactics go: He'll fly and strafe initially with his breath weapon; if he's not entirely effective this way, he'll cast Flaming Sphere or Burning Hands in order to set the platform on fire and force a retreat; if he's confident enough, he'll swoop in then snatch and drop characters.


I have assured the group, both through NPCs and my own warnings, that even younger dragons aren't chumps. This dragon will make sure the fight is on his terms and will not be stupid; they should really plan accordingly.



The party is in the process of leveling up to 7; thus, they are discussing tactics and spell selections.
Each party member possesses a potion of energy resistance for the acid breath.
The party has access to a teleport scroll with two uses. It's in possession of the kobold NPC, who has agreed to get them there but will not partake in the fight.
Preparations are still going on.



So, they get that they need to be ready for a tough fight. They hope to teleport in, find the antidote, and, if things go south quickly, teleport out. Still, at least two party members are looking forward to the possible rewards of killing a dragon themselves.



I'm guaranteeing successful teleport in and out (party must still be in kobold's vicinity to teleport out, or in the event of his death, the artificer's vicinity).
I have significantly lowered the height of the platform. I'm willing to lower it again if 100 feet is too high. Death is possible if knocked off, but not definite.
Loophole in the dragon's tactics: if he burns the platform and forces a retreat, it actually brings the fight to the forest floor, making the dragon's flight more difficult.
The area is actually in a ravine; there are escape routes through caves inaccessible to the dragon.



So, the big question: Is there anything else I can do to balance things out without chumping the dragon? It's clear to me that the party wants a challenge, wants to fight a dragon, and is aware that the death of a character or two is probable. I just don't want it to be a TPK. Thoughts?

[Chester]

How about even a "looks good," or "it'll never work?" Anyone? Bueller?

They plan to attack tonight.

[Quertus]

Why do they believe that, if they can win initiative, they can end the battle quickly, despite their limited access to ranged attacks?

[Chester]

Why do they believe that, if they can win initiative, they can end the battle quickly, despite their limited access to ranged attacks?

*shrug*

Hubris?

EDIT: Since I started this thread, the party has become quite prepared to minimize damage from breath. I don't think they've considered other tactics.

[nedz]

Looking at the previous thread: have they even got themselves ranged weapons yet ?

Do the melee characters have any means of flight ?

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about even a "looks good," or "it'll never work?" Anyone? Bueller?

They plan to attack tonight.
Looks good :smalltongue:.

It really does. Maybe the dragon needs some spider allies to put webs between the trees?

[Chester]

Looking at the previous thread: have they even got themselves ranged weapons yet ?

Do the melee characters have any means of flight ?

Minimal ranged weapons, no flight. Possible earthbind spell.

This may end up a "grab and run" encounter.

[Chester]

Looks good :smalltongue:.

It really does. Maybe the dragon needs some spider allies to put webs between the trees?

Thinking that....I just don't want to throw too much at the party.

[nedz]

Minimal ranged weapons, no flight.

But they're 8th level ? :smallconfused:

Give them a random encounter on route which would be easy - if only they had ranged weapons.

[DrMotives]

But they're 8th level ? :smallconfused:

Give them a random encounter on route which would be easy - if only they had ranged weapons.

Like maybe winged dragonborn kobolds in service to the green dragon they're trying to kill. Kobolds pepper them with sorcery & crossbow sneak attacks (doesn't higher ground allow automatic denial of dex bonus?) but if they were on the ground would be steamrolled by the party.

[Chester]

But they're 8th level ? :smallconfused:

Give them a random encounter on route which would be easy - if only they had ranged weapons.


Like maybe winged dragonborn kobolds in service to the green dragon they're trying to kill. Kobolds pepper them with sorcery & crossbow sneak attacks (doesn't higher ground allow automatic denial of dex bonus?) but if they were on the ground would be steamrolled by the party.

Funny thing....I did that. Goblins in trees with crossbows, plus ogre barbarians throwing javelins from the other side of a pit trap. Party won, but it was a nailbiter.

[FocusWolf413]

If they want a dragon fight, give them a dragon fight. Don't pull your punches. If they die because of their actions, so be it. Actions have consequences and dragons are to be feared.

Make sure it attacks them when they're climbing onto the platform. They're extra vulnerable then.

Make sure it hits them with a dispel at the beginning of combat. Dragons get casting based off of HD, and I think wizard levels stack with that. If they don't, you should pretend they do. Anyway, it should be able to hit them with a dispel with no problem.

Try to grapple the casters and lift them off the platform, or just bull rush them over the edge. Anyone who stands next to the edge should get hit with a tripping tail attack and make a reflex save or fall.

The dragon should try to herd them into a corner of the platform. If they can be corralled, they're not a threat.

All in all, it looks really good.

[Draconium]

Make sure it hits them with a dispel at the beginning of combat. Dragons get casting based off of HD, and I think wizard levels stack with that. If they don't, you should pretend they do. Anyway, it should be able to hit them with a dispel with no problem.

I don't think that's exactly how dragon spellcasting works. They have an effective Sorcerer level, which I imagine serves for spells per day, spells known, and Caster Level. And Wizard levels don't stack with that (although Sorcerer levels would).

Of course, you could always apply the Spellhoarding template (Dragon #313) to him, changing his effective Sorcerer levels into effective Wizard levels, and therefore allowing the spellcasting to stack.

[DrMotives]

This dragon, unless you start pulling those optional rules Eberron, is a sorcerer 1 / wizard 3. Those don't stack, and I think OP knows that.

[FocusWolf413]

This dragon, unless you start pulling those optional rules Eberron, is a sorcerer 1 / wizard 3. Those don't stack, and I think OP knows that.


Dragons get casting based off of HD, and I think wizard levels stack with that. If they don't, you should pretend they do.


Just because the Monster Manual says something doesn't mean that's how it needs to be. The DM is free to tweak monsters as he wants. Nonstandard monsters can often be very fun.

[Draconium]

Just because the Monster Manual says something doesn't mean that's how it needs to be. The DM is free to tweak monsters as he wants. Nonstandard monsters can often be very fun.

Well, the main reason dragons don't get a Caster Level based off of their HD is for balancing purposes - not only is the spellcasting is meant to be just one small part of their build, but they tend to have a lot of HD - in fact, if the casting was based off of their HD, then their CL would be way higher than any of the party members'. The CL limited to their effective Sorcerer level helps keep it a bit more balanced.

Still, either way, it doesn't have high-leveled enough spells known to get Dispel Magic anyways. Dispel's a third-level spell, and any way you slice it, the dragon's only got up through second level. Now, a scroll of Dispel Magic may work...

[FocusWolf413]

Well, the main reason dragons don't get a Caster Level based off of their HD...

But they do. It's just not a 1:1 ratio.

A scroll would definitely work. That's something that the dragon should have anyway.

[Randomthom]

Side-note, green dragons are notoriously cunning and conniving. They also like to control their surroundings and gather information about the world, particularly the world pertaining to them. It would not be unlike a green dragon to have cast dominate on this kobold that is "helping" the party in order to either set up a trap or at least to gather information regarding their plans.

Given your descriptions of the environment, the dragon should not truly be in danger by the party. It could simply wait until the group near the top of the rope ladder or are half-way across the rope bridge before sending the PCs plummeting to their deaths.

I believe that the dragon would need to be adequately distracted (or perhaps asleep) for the PCs to get the jump on it. I'd also imagine the dragon to have an alarm spell on the bridge though so asleep seems unlikely.

Dragons are meant to be intelligent and scary, don't sell it short for the sake of a 'fair fight'. Perhaps the gold dragon could have a mate or young or an ally (possibly an angel) who could help. The point is that all the cards are stacked against the players and to give them a fair fight you either need to play the dragon poorly or give them some help that makes sense and nullifies some of the dragon's advantages.

[Draconium]

But they do. It's just not a 1:1 ratio.

Not exactly... it is based on age categories, as one they have spellcasting, their effective Sorcerer level goes up by 2 per age category, and they go up an age category for every 3 RHD they possess.

However, the age category/HD at which they gain their first spells varies from dragon to dragon. Gold and Green Dragons, for instance, both gain their first spells at 14 HD, while the Copper Dragon gains their spells at 11 HD. However, this is in the Young age category for Copper and Gold Dragons, and the Juvenile age for Greens.

It gets even wonkier as you bring other kinds of dragons into the picture. There isn't a whole lot of cohesion between them, to be honest. From what I can tell, all the Metallic Dragons, along with the Red Dragon, get their podcasting at Young age, while Blue and Green Dragons get it a Juvenile, Black Dragons at Young Adult, and White Dragons at Adult. That is a huge discrepancy in HD from dragon to dragon.

[Chester]

This dragon, unless you start pulling those optional rules Eberron, is a sorcerer 1 / wizard 3. Those don't stack, and I think OP knows that.

I do.


The point is that all the cards are stacked against the players and to give them a fair fight you either need to play the dragon poorly or give them some help that makes sense and nullifies some of the dragon's advantages.

Therein lies the question. I'm not chumping the dragon, that's for sure. Party has at least eliminated the danger of the breath weapon. I'll start with that, if the opportunity permits, as the dragon wouldn't be aware right away.

I guess it's the height of the platform that might be just plain mean. The warforged can survive the fall no problem. It's likely instant death for everyone else. Is it worth loweri g the height to give the PCs SOME chance of survival?

It's likely they'll have the kobold teleport them out if things get hairy, but not before someone gets knocked down.

[Invader]

I do.



Therein lies the question. I'm not chumping the dragon, that's for sure. Party has at least eliminated the danger of the breath weapon. I'll start with that, if the opportunity permits, as the dragon wouldn't be aware right away.

I guess it's the height of the platform that might be just plain mean. The warforged can survive the fall no problem. It's likely instant death for everyone else. Is it worth loweri g the height to give the PCs SOME chance of survival?

It's likely they'll have the kobold teleport them out if things get hairy, but not before someone gets knocked down.

They shouldn't really have to worry about the dragon grabbing them and throwing them off. He's only large and I'm assuming no one in your group is tiny unless you're dragon is investing in snatch and improved snatch.

[Draconium]

They shouldn't really have to worry about the dragon grabbing them and throwing them off. He's only large and I'm assuming no one in your group is tiny unless you're dragon is investing in snatch and improved snatch.

Snatch has Huge size as a prerequisite anyways. Of course, the OP may run it differently in his game, based off what he was saying.

[Chester]

Yes, I gave him Snatch. I wanted that to be a strategy while keeping the dragon juvenile.

The fight happened.

The dragon was hiding in the canopy over the old outpost, and every party member failed the spot check miserably. It was sad.

So, they all climbed the rope ladder without taking Feather Fall potions. About 60 feet up, the dragon emerged from hiding, bullrushing the Warforged off the ladder (he led the party). Everyone else made a strength check to hold on, and everyone failed except the Artificer. Fall damage happens.

This was actually a stroke of luck, as it limited the dragon's flight path.

Cleric cast Anti-Dragon Aura. Party already quaffed potions of energy resistance. Paladin/Sorcerer/Spellsword fired Magic Missiles. Psion shot rays and went into hiding. Artificer continued his climb in order to find the antidote, and the Warforged followed.

Dragon strafes, does some damage. Rolls a 1 on 1d4, can strafe again next round.

So goes the strategy. The dragon notices the Artificer and Warforged, and shoots a flaming sphere to set the platform on fire. Warforged makes an escape while Artificer quaffs a Feather Fall potion and drops to the ground safely, .

The dragon is getting annoyed, especially with the Paladin, who keeps pestering him. Swoops down, bites, and grapples. I tell the Paladin that if he rolls a natural 20, he can resist the grapple.

He rolls a natural 20. :smallfurious:

After escape attempts and some general scrambling about, the dragon is finally successful in snatching the Paladin and dropping him 60 feet.

I rolled 10 damage. Lucky Paladin.

The party accomplished the mission. They managed to avoid hubris, get what they needed, and get out. Diversionary tactics worked, an initial plunge off a ladder turned out to be in their favor, and lucky die rolls saved lives.

I didn't pull any punches. The die rolls happened. It was a satisfying game.

[nedz]

Sounds good, how did the party react afterwards ?

[Fizban]

One thing you overlooked: the unattended rope ladder should have melted after a single breath weapon unless it was somehow acid-proof. I'd also point out that Feather Fall lasts only 1 round/level, making it terrible for a potion (there are multiple printings of 50gp "not-potions" that let you use the spell as intended outside your turn).

One thing I always find amusing when people talk about dragons is the "intelligence." Many have caught on by now that dragon spellcasting is completely overrated, but their int scores are in the same boat: starting at or below human and not reaching significantly past 1st level PC stats until at least Adult or better ages, which are in near endgame CRs. Green dragons aren't any more cunning than Reds, in fact Reds have the higher stats by age because they're higher CR. Dragons are only as mysteriously awesome as the DM makes them: like most monsters with even a hint of ecological information, they are unbeatably superior to any humanoid race in both natural and breeding ability and are only limited by the racial tendencies the DM enforces.

Compared to canny adventurers, dragons are a reasonable threat but the numbers are not all that scary to me. While as a species dragons should own the world (barring Phaerimm involvement-those have more casting) since it takes many thousands of humanoids to produce just a few adventurers of high enough level to match a single dragon. The point being that sure, dragons are "intelligent" and "ancient," but if they were actually using that intelligence and longevity you wouldn't exist, so clearly they must have natural self-destructive tendencies such as cockiness or laziness that get them killed (the given reason being that they sleep on a tiny pile of treasure for centuries at a time and will die to protect it). The DM is almost obligated to make dragons idiots when confronted with adventurers just to maintain suspension of disbelief.

I'm sadly disappointed in your party's preparedness considering they wanted a dragon fight. No knocks to you for keeping the dragon alive, that's just sticking to your guns and playing actually smart/cautious, and their lack of ranged weapons would imply that much more heavily to avoid sustained melee. But they didn't even buy bows, seriously?

Checking the last thread, no one mentioned the easiest anti-flight weapon: Tanglefoot Bag. Dragons have all high saves but low dex so the flat DC15 isn't all that bad: dropping winged flyers on a failed save, in addition to the excellent entangling condition, and the whole party can throw them regardless of class, and there's a nice cantrip for throwing them at absurd ranges. Stick it to the ground with a volley of goo, retreat out of breath range, shoot until dead.

*Hate me if you want, but when a player shows me a sheet without a ranged weapon I immediately point out how insanely inappropriate it is for their professional adventurer that has survived dozens of offscreen combats (screw 1st level) to think it's a good idea to walk around with only a pointy stick and maybe they should get a bow. Of course I can't actually make them use it. . . Edit: my bad,, seems they weren't completely unarmed.

[Chester]

They had ranged weapons, just nobody in the party is any good with them.

[Fizban]

*Squints at party information* Ah, in my haste I managed to interpret "not particularly apt" as "not having any" thanks to other posts that were slanted more that way. Well then at least they're not being silly.

I'd say the next big question is if the dragon will come back for revenge. Once it's not tied to a macguffin it can do whatever strafing tactics it wishes. That's the reason I'd avoid annoying dragons: high overland flight speed lets them chase down anything that hasn't teleported to an unexpected location.

[Draconium]

*Squints at party information* Ah, in my haste I managed to interpret "not particularly apt" as "not having any" thanks to other posts that were slanted more that way. Well then at least they're not being silly.

I'd say the next big question is if the dragon will come back for revenge. Once it's not tied to a macguffin it can do whatever strafing tactics it wishes. That's the reason I'd avoid dragons: high overland flight speed lets them chase down anything that hasn't teleported to an unexpected location.

Well, just because they can doesn't mean they will. Creatures that live as long as dragons have a different perspective of time than beings such as humanoids. There's a good chance the dragon will take some time to plot his revenge against the party - he's in no rush. Heck, he'll get the last laugh anyways - assuming the party doesn't try to hunt him down, he'll probably just outlive them.