Dragon Shaman vs DFA

[Aleolus]

(Please be aware, I am looking for a friendly debate on this topic. If you wish to weigh in, please do so, but don't bash on others opinions or attack other posters. I say this more as a precaution than anything else)

After seeing a recent post where the person was asking advice on what to do with their Dragon Shaman character, and most of the replies involved variations of "Use Dragonfire Adept instead, its better", I wanted to get this started. This is intended to be a debate thread regarding DSs againt DFAs.

Personally, I dislike the DFA, for several reasons. First off, its not original at all. I've looked at the DFA extremely closely, and all I can see is a Warlock that has had the fluff and a couple of abilities changed out to have a draconic feel, rather than a generic arcane feel.

Second, the DFA mocks dragons, even though it is supposed to be channeling their own power. Whenever a DFA uses their breath weapon, they can use it again immediately afterwards (barring using feats that delay it), even though dragons themselves, arguably the progenitors of breath weapons, have to wait 1d4 rounds before they can use it again. This means that DFAs are better at one of the most iconic aspects of dragons than the dragons themselves are.

Lastly, I dislike how the DFAs breath weapon works. You have one and only one type, and if you want to change it, you have to use your limited number of invocations known to try to make it what you want, and you can only use so many invocations at a time, meaning your ability to customize it is limited.

Now, I do acknowledge that the DS has its faults as well, (several of the auras are kinda weak, you have to wait till level 4 to get your breath weapon, there is not a lot of support for them even in their own book), but I feel that the DS accomplished what it set out to do more effectively than the DFA did.

[JNAProductions]

I find DFA to be a lot of fun. That's really all I have to say on the matter. Sure, it might not be the best class, but it's definitely enjoyable.

[Rebel7284]

First of all, I will point out that in my opinion Warlocks, themselves, are pretty poor at the flavor of a warlock. Sure they are mildly magical, but nothing that screams "sorcerer witch". Hell, Hexblade probably does Warlock better with curses and actual arcane spells.

Also, I find it a bit inconsistent on your part that you first argue that the DFA breath weapon is not dragon-y enough due to not having a recharge and then immediately complain that they can't change breath type - dragons typically are stuck with a single type too!

[Waazraath]

Well, for a part it's a flavour thing I guess. Both are constructed round a draconic flavor, with breath weapon, natural armor... but where the dragon shaman is more melee focussed (despite the damnable medium bab), the dragonfire adept is more caster-like (invocations, low bab, no armor, lower hd). Not as good as real (full) casters, since indeed it uses the warlock as basis, but still. In general, that would make the dragonfire adept a bit more powerfull, since mostly casters > non casters. But power isn't everything. As I see the reasons of dislikement in the OP, they are mostly flavor (so: taste).

There is one rule controversy that is important (I don't have a strong opinion on it, for me it's 'ask the DM): can a dragonfire adept use meta-breath feats? They specificly mention that they work with breath weapons that have a recharge time (AFB, so can't quote the precise text); does a DFA has one (0 rounds) and does a DFA that uses a metabreath feat feat that increases it to 3 round; or can't it use them at all? If the latter is the ruling, that would be a definite minus for the class. It still could use entangling exhaltation though, since that isn't a metabreat feat officialy.

If I had to build a breathweapon build, I'd consider both. Dragon shaman has the option to go into melee (and should since it can't use a breath weapon every time), DFA depends a bit on the build and invocations chosen. I'd always use dragonborn though, either way, because another breath weapon is just too good to pass up on if you have abilities, items and feats that improve a breath weapon. Because of that, I'd also consider 2 other classes: binder (that can have one type of breath weapon from level 1 onwards, and gains another one at late levels) or psion (or another psionic base class), that can also gain two breath weapons (one with the power gemstone breath, one from the prestige class diamond dragon). All can work.

[Aleolus]

Individual dragons, yes. But every type of dragon has a different type of breath weapon, while all DFAs have the same one by default (line of fire, iirc). This is actually another example of DFA being better at breath weapons than dragons, though, because any DFA can change their breath on the fly if they wish to and were willing to learn the needed invocations. I just find the idea of a lesser being (like a human, elf or dwarf) being better than a dragon at the dragons own schtick to be upsetting and, frankly, insulting to dragons

[AmberVael]

The problem the Dragon Shaman faces is that it is unfocused - its hard to tell what exactly its supposed to do, and what it DOES do is fairly minor and not terribly effective. Auras aren't bad, but you can't just sit around using them doing nothing else, and because your breath weapon has cooldown you can't rely on that all the time either - and even when you use it, its damage is paltry. You don't have spells, or full BAB. Your healing ability is cool but not spammable. You have no skill points. They're just... not a great class.

By contrast, the dragonfire adept is fairly easy to use and understand. It gets a breath weapon that it can spam. The damage is not amazing, but you can add on all these nifty riders with your Breath Effects (note, you don't actually spend invocations to get breath effects, unlike how warlock spends invocations to get shapes/essences). They're decent at battlefield control, and have spammable area damage, so they can provide consistent damage if not particularly stellar damage, and they get some utility on the side with their invocations. The DFA is not the most amazing class, but they're a fire breathing control class that is fairly simple to use while remaining effective, which stands head and shoulders over Dragon Shaman's mess of non-synergistic and paltry abilities.

[Glimbur]

What does Dragon mean to you? They are large critters that can fly, they have sorcerous powers, they have huge piles of loot, they have legends so scary it gives them a fearful presence, and they have a breath weapon. Is it more dragon-like to play a character that wants to amass a huge horde, a character who wants to be big and fly, a character who wants sorcerous power, or one that has a breath weapon? Throw in the challenge of reasonable balance and it's not very easy to make a class that is like a dragon.

I don't like the Dragon Shaman because they don't fit with what I think a dragon iconically should be, and it's not a very effective class mechanically. I'm ok with dragonfire adepts being more flexible with breath weapons than real dragons because they are specialists.

[ImperatorV]

The dragon shaman is actually worse fluff-wise then the DFA. Both classes claim to emulate dragons, but where have you heard of a dragon that has auras that boost allies, or lay on hands for that matter? Plus, the second that third biggest aspects of dragons, flight and arcane abilities, are not present in the dragon shaman (yes, I know there is the level 19 wings. If you're level 19 and don't have a means of flight yet you are doing something wrong. Also something like 90% of campaigns will be over before level 19). Essentially, if someone picks of a dragon shaman because they want to be like dragons, they will be very disappointed, because a dragon shaman is nothing like a dragon. It fails at it's most basic premise.

Another issue with the dragon shaman, and the one most people will be talking about when they recommend the DFA over it, is balance. Dragon shaman's are weak, and have no clear role in the party. They lack the BAB for pure melee, they can do a good ranged attack about once per encounter if using metabreath feats, they have these auras that are nice but don't really fit in any given party role, and they can heal a little. It has four different capabilities that don't really synergize with each other, and it's not very good at any given one either. As opposed to the DFA, which has a clear role as party spellcaster, and is good at said role without being unbalanced. If you read the dragon shaman handbook, the best rated ACF is the one that lets them trade auras for DFA invocations. The strongest option for a dragon shaman is to be more like a dragonfire adept.

Sure, the DFA has it's issues, but overall if you handed one player who wanted to be a dragon a DFA and another a dragon shaman the DFA player would be more useful, have more fun, and feel more like a dragon.

[Aleolus]

Everyone says that Shamans aren't a good meleeist because of their BAB, but they would still be comparible to a Cleric, which no one bats an eye at a Cleric wading into melee. Even factoring in the Cleric's buffing spells, the Dragon Shaman doesn't fall that far behind due to the combat based auras they have, such as Power or Healing. Now, I do think that Double Draconic Aura should be available before level 12, but that's personal opinion.

And yes, the auras aren't very draconic in and of themselves, but its like a variation on a dragons Frightful Presence. Dragons project an aura that intimidates those around them, their shamans project auras of their own to benefit their comrades

[Troacctid]

Dragon Shamans don't actually have any abilities past level 4 or so, essentially, and the few abilities they do have are junk. They're underpowered and they don't play very well. Dragonfire Adepts, on the other hand, have great abilities across their whole progression. They're well-balanced and fun to play.

Line up a Dragon Shaman level-by-level against a Dragonfire Adept and the DFA will come out ahead at every single point.

Edit: Dragon Shamans are worse than Clerics at melee. They don't get the War domain and they don't have any buff spells.

[torrasque666]

Plus, Dragons can even get the auras themselves, in exchange for a spell or two.

[AmberVael]

Everyone says that Shamans aren't a good meleeist because of their BAB, but they would still be comparible to a Cleric, which no one bats an eye at a Cleric wading into melee. Even factoring in the Cleric's buffing spells, the Dragon Shaman doesn't fall that far behind due to the combat based auras they have, such as Power or Healing.
A cleric gets spells that say yes I am fighter now, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) or I AM A GIANT DEATH MACHINE. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) The auras of a dragon shaman don't even come close to what a cleric can do. Power tops out at +5 melee damage at level 20, while fast healing - especially fast healing that only works at half HP or below - is rarely useful in combat, and is more an out of combat ability used to make healing cheaper.

And the thing is, even if you contest how good a cleric can be at melee... melee isn't even their actual thing. It is a side note that pales in comparison to the cleric being a full spellcaster. A handful of auras, a minor healing ability, and a sometimes breath weapon don't compare to spells, and don't add up to a major role or focus. Cleric gets away with being second fiddle melee because they're also a wielder of terrifying divine power. What does dragon shaman have?

[Waazraath]

I think the book Dragon Magic also gave dragons aura's, but that's a something that was modelled after the dragon shaman... a bit the other way around. As for the melee capabilities of the dragon shaman compared with the cleric.... well, I would go for the cleric buff spells, if I had the choice. Depends a bit on how you play the game though. At high optimization levels, with DMM clerics that have a persisted righteous might and divine power up, it's no contest, they are much much much stronger. Even with DMM quicken, they quickly surpass the Dragon Shaman, maybe unless it spends all its feats on combat feats, but then it won't get much out of the breath weapon. If your used to playing a low up cleric, that first needs one or two buff rounds to get those (or other) spells up, it gets closer. But at boards like these, quite high op play is mostly assumed.

As for the other capabilities of the dragon shaman in melee: medium armor means mithril full plate, that's ok, and the few extra ac they get from scales helps. They have a lot of hp, also because the breath weapon save is con based. The aura's, well... initiative helps to go first, and a few extra points of damage is sometimes nice, but meh... it's really a little, and only really significant if you have partymembers with lots of extra attacks, a large party with a lot of melee characters, and/or NPC's, animal companions and that kind of stuff. They can contribute, but it's not spectacular.

[Zaq]

I played a DFA for quite a while (and I played alongside a different one that I helped my friend build, though at a different level range), and I had a blast with them. They're far from perfect, but honestly, they're a really well-designed class overall. They're reliable (even on a turn where the d20s are against them, they almost always do half damage or have a half-duration debuff; Evasion exists, but it's really not that common), they've got a good mix of combat utility and out-of-combat utility, and they're hard to shut down entirely (blinded? Don't care! Slowed/can't full attack? Don't care! Attack penalties? Don't care! Grappled? Don't care!). They do benefit from magic items, but to be perfectly honest, they really don't need anything to function, so they're a good fit for games where the GM isn't so great about distributing loot appropriately.

Do they fit the "draconic flavor"? To be perfectly blunt, I don't care. I find D&D dragons to generally be pretty uninteresting, mostly because they feel overwrought to me. When you've got five books dedicated to dragons (Draconomicon, Races of the Dragon, Dragon Magic, Dragons of Faerun, Dragons of Eberron) and one book dedicated to dungeons (Dungeonscape), I feel like you've got a fundamental imbalance. My DFA was refluffed to within an inch of their life, and they would have been baffled if you suggested that what they were doing was draconic in nature; my friend's DFA had a more traditional theme involving following a dragon god (though a very cheeky and irreverent take on one), but it was still fun to be alongside them.

It's true that they're pretty much always going to be support characters; a party where the DFA is the group's primary damage dealer is not a group that's good at ending combats quickly, unless that group's GM has a deep and abiding love of swarms of low-level mooks. And before Fivefold Breath of Tiamat comes online, there's a pretty hard cap on what you can do to increase the DFA's damage output; you can pick up a couple extra d6s here and there, but unless you count metabreath-stacking shenanigans (which I don't count, because they are indeed shenanigans), there's a very definite ceiling on a DFA's damage output. (My favorite breed of DFA's style focuses far more on debuffing than on damage, of course, but I recognize that not everyone plays that way.) This is both good and bad; it does mean that a DFA might have some difficulty fitting into a very highly optimized group, but I don't think that's much of a problem in a practical setting.

The obvious point of comparison, of course, is the Warlock. Warlocks are fine as far as it goes, and at high levels, I think they've got a higher ceiling than the DFA does, but to be honest, I like the DFA better. For one, I feel like the DFA gets cool tricks (especially debuffs and status effects) faster than the Warlock does. Entangling Exhalation can come online at level 1, and Slow Breath dominates level 5, but the Warlock doesn't get any really amazing debuffs until Greater invocations are in play. (I'm not saying that low-level Warlock debuffs are worthless, but I don't feel like they've got as much pop as low-level DFA debuffs.) I kind of like that the DFA puts most of its offensive tricks in the "breath effect" category and has most of its invocations as utility effects; in the aggregate, it may be a little bit less flexible than the Warlock in that regard, but I kind of like the compartmentalization, since a Warlock always feels like there's too many different goals pulling from the same set of resources (namely, invocation slots). A Warlock might have more freedom (they're free to take all blast effects, or no blast effects, or a mix, while a DFA has to take a certain number of breath effects and a certain number of utility invocations), but I feel like it's almost kind of liberating to not have to worry about overspecializing. Also, from a practical standpoint, the Warlock is basically required to take Precise Shot right away (with the prereq of Point Blank Shot, of course), which is annoying; a DFA doesn't strictly need to take any feats if they don't want to (Entangling Exhalation is an obvious candidate for first pick, but it's by no means mandatory for the DFA to function), so I consider that to be an advantage.

In short, the DFA sets out to do something, and they do that something very well. They aim to be a very consistent source of reliable (but not crazy) magical effects. No other class does nearly as elegant a job of providing consistent (at-will or nearly at-will) AoE effects. It's a good class for a newbie who wants to play a "blaster" throwing around d6s of magic every turn without having to worry about the bookkeeping of traditional casting, but there's enough versatility in their toolbox that an experienced player can play them without getting bored.

In contrast, of course, we have the Dragon Shaman. If the Dragon Shaman has an intended niche, I genuinely am not sure what it is, aside from "fifth or sixth wheel" or "barely competent thing that can be thrown together in ten minutes if your main character dies in the first few rounds of the session."

Its many failings have been documented already, of course: the auras are entirely passive and don't give you anything to actually do round-by-round, the breath weapon is nowhere near powerful enough to warrant the gnarly cooldown, the healing is acceptable but not enough to salvage the class (and the fact that the Vigor aura exists makes you disinclined to use it in combat, since it's more effective to let the Vigor aura do half the work for you and then use the Lay On Hands effect to top up afterwards), and the class doesn't actually get any other noticeable combat abilities (simple weapons, 3/4 BAB, no actual tricks) or out-of-combat abilities (low skill points, limited skill list, incredibly niche "draconic adaptations").

The Dragon Shaman does make a good NPC, if your goal is to gently support the party without overshadowing anyone. By making them an NPC, you remove from consideration the fact that the class doesn't give the player playing it anything especially interesting to do, so the small contributions it does offer can be better appreciated. Players will appreciate the aura bonuses, it's nice to have an NPC shoulder some of the job of topping up HP between fights, and the breath weapon lets the NPC contribute a little bit without giving the real PCs power envy. But as a PC? It doesn't give you anything to do, and that's a major sin for a base class. I did have a party once with a Dragon Shaman in it; he was a creative enough player that he managed to have fun roleplaying, but it was clearly in spite of the class rather than because of it. (It didn't hurt that I was the GM, so I let him get away with a lot of stuff, including letting him into a PrC or two that he didn't nominally qualify for, though the details escape me at the moment).

As far as the Dragon Shaman's "draconic flavor" goes, I honestly don't see it. Dragons aren't known for having auras that buff their allies. They aren't known for having a Paladin-style Lay On Hands. I guess the breath weapon is a thing, but the one granted by the Dragon Shaman is far too weaksauce to evoke the image of a true dragon (not to mention that it's far too weaksauce to be a player's primary contribution to the party). The "draconic adaptations" are cute, and they're a step in the right direction, but they're nowhere near enough to actually make a Dragon Shaman feel like a dragon.

Honestly, if you wanted to build a character whose core fluff was "I love dragons, I seek to emulate their powers, and I try to embody their essence," I wouldn't point you at either the DFA or the Dragon Shaman. I might point you at the Totemist, who gets enough natural weapons to be as close as most PCs will ever get to "claw/claw/bite/wing/wing/tail." I might point you at a Cleric or a Sorcerer, arguing that the primary aspect of a dragon's power is their inherent magic. In the same vein, I might point you at a gishy sort of build, since what creature embodies "magical power on top of a very dangerous physical attacker" more than a dragon? Whatever class you played, I would certainly advise you to take the dragonborn race, since that's by far the easiest way to mark off the "has a breath weapon" checkbox without much fuss.

So yeah. I think the DFA is a well-designed and fun class, and I think the Dragon Shaman is a very uninteresting class that forgets that players want to have something to do every round. I don't think either is especially bursting with draconic flavor.

Long ago, I had some ideas sketched out for ways to make the Dragon Shaman more interesting; I'm an amateur homebrewer at best (and that's probably pushing it), and these are just brainstorms rather than strong and refined ideas, but if you're interested, they're in the spoiler.

We start by giving them ToB disciplines. Desert Wind is obvious, and the energy type it deals is automatically swapped out if the DS's totem dragon deals a different type of damage with their breath weapon. (If desired, throw in a clause about the maneuver save DCs being based on CHA instead of WIS.) Beyond that? Probably White Raven and Tiger Claw. You could also toss in Stone Dragon if you want to keep it as the Universal Discipline, but you don't want to give them TOO many schools. Give them about as many maneuvers known/readied as the Warblade; maybe a little more, but definitely fewer than the Swordsage. Since we're homebrewing anyway, you could bring in one or more of the many, many homebrewed ToB disciplines, if you wanted, but let's just keep things simple for now.

Next, make the breath weapon available from level 1, scaled appropriately. Keep the 1d4 round recharge on it. Possibly make it friendly, though that would depend on the balance point you have in mind, and that would definitely affect what I'm about to say next. Here's the key to making the Dragon Shaman feel unique: the breath weapon is how they recharge their maneuvers. When they use their breath weapon (and throw in a clause about it only working on THIS breath weapon, even if they have breath weapons from other sources), they recover maneuvers based on how many targets are affected (minimum 1). The exact wording would depend on your desired balance point; you could have it be based on how many targets fail their save, or you could just make it based on how many targets take damage from it. You can even have the number of maneuvers recovered scale with level, but the key point is that the breath weapon is the trigger for the maneuver recharge. You might want to keep the breath weapon DC based on CON, or you might solidify the CHA-focus by tying it to CHA, but either could probably work. You might need to do a little bit of tweaking to make them less hamstrung by fighting solo monsters (possibly introduce a buffing breath effect that could be used on allies, then count allies as targets?), but the base idea is there.

After that, just do a little bit of cleanup (give them better proficiencies and better skills, possibly tweak the auras a bit, and so on), but the bulk of the work is done. Having ToB maneuvers goes a huge way toward giving them something to do every round, and the breath weapon lets them keep some draconic flavor while making them actually feel distinct from the existing initiator classes. I'm sure there's room for improvement, but how's that for a starting point?

[Nifft]

Most of what I wanted to say has been said.

Dragonfire Adept is a lovely T3 class which is great fun to play in a T3 campaign.

Dragon Shaman is ... well, a bit of a shame. It's like they wanted to make a more balanced Marshal, and in that regard they might have succeeded, but as a class in itself it was not a success.

[Red Fel]

After seeing a recent post where the person was asking advice on what to do with their Dragon Shaman character, and most of the replies involved variations of "Use Dragonfire Adept instead, its better", I wanted to get this started. This is intended to be a debate thread regarding DSs againt DFAs.

Well, here's the thing. Setting aside personal preferences - which are (1) personal, and therefore not subject to debate, and (2) generally strongly outcome-determinative, irrespective of optimization standards - there are clear distinctions between the capabilities of the two classes.

From a purely objective standpoint, DFA is better. It does more. Let's look at a quick comparison.
Chassis. Both classes get a good Fort and Will save. DS gets a better BAB, 3/4 as opposed to 1/2, but DS' design doesn't give it any real advantage in melee. Slight advantage to DS.
Breath weapon. Both classes get one. The DS' breath weapon is usable every 1d4 rounds, making it eligible for metabreath feats, but its shape and energy type are strictly defined. The DFA's breath weapon is usable at-will as a standard action, so no metabreath feats (I think), but the various breath effects allow you to customize it in terms of shape, energy type, and rider effect. Further, since the breath weapon is your primary damage output, having low BAB is less of an issue. Advantage to DFA.
Flight. DS gets Ex flight at 19. DFA gets the Draconic Flight invocation at level 6. Advantage to DFA so much.
Other abilities. Quick rundown.
DS: Auras, but only one at a time. Lay on Hands. Immunity to sleep, paralysis, and frightful presence. Natural armor. Immunity to one type of energy. 1/week Commune. One effectively passive Ex or Sp ability you can share.
DFA: Invocations, all sorts. The Dragontouched feat. Natural armor, better and sooner than DS. DR. Immunity to paralysis and sleep. Diplomacy bonus to Dragons and Dragonbloods. Also, PrCs which advance spellcasting classes advance DFA, where they don't advance DS.I'll give this to DFA. More versatility, and more offensive options. Those options which they have in common, the DFA gets better (e.g. natural armor).
Bottom line, the DS has to sit back and be a buffing and healing battery. It doesn't really have the options to do much more. The DFA, like the Warlock, has more options, particularly offensive ones.


Personally, I dislike the DFA, for several reasons. First off, its not original at all. I've looked at the DFA extremely closely, and all I can see is a Warlock that has had the fluff and a couple of abilities changed out to have a draconic feel, rather than a generic arcane feel.

That's a fair assessment. It's very much like a refluffed Warlock, with Breath Weapon replacing Eldritch Blast, Breath Effects replacing Blast Shapes, and Invocations replacing... Invocations.


Second, the DFA mocks dragons, even though it is supposed to be channeling their own power. Whenever a DFA uses their breath weapon, they can use it again immediately afterwards (barring using feats that delay it), even though dragons themselves, arguably the progenitors of breath weapons, have to wait 1d4 rounds before they can use it again. This means that DFAs are better at one of the most iconic aspects of dragons than the dragons themselves are.

Whoa, mocks? Emulates. And frankly, emulates better than the DS. As others have mentioned, Lay on Hands isn't exactly a Dragon's weapon of choice. And the DFA's invocations are well suited to emulating different aspects of Dragonkind. Also, the at-will nature of DFA breath weapons means that, unlike Dragons - who can achieve unique mastery of their breath weapons through Metabreath feats - DFAs can only mimic such mastery with their Breath Effects.


Lastly, I dislike how the DFAs breath weapon works. You have one and only one type, and if you want to change it, you have to use your limited number of invocations known to try to make it what you want, and you can only use so many invocations at a time, meaning your ability to customize it is limited.

... As opposed to DS, which... Has one and only one type, and can't change it at all, with the exception of Metabreath feats, which don't so much change as add riders to breath weapons.


Now, I do acknowledge that the DS has its faults as well, (several of the auras are kinda weak, you have to wait till level 4 to get your breath weapon, there is not a lot of support for them even in their own book), but I feel that the DS accomplished what it set out to do more effectively than the DFA did.

And that's a fair statement of personal taste, which as mentioned is beyond dispute.

And that's the bottom line. If you find DS more to your liking, it is a better choice for you than DFA, full stop. And there's nothing wrong with that. Much like people who are more comfortable with a Fighter than a Barbarian or Warblade, you go with what feels best to you.

From an objective standpoint, the DFA has superior versatility, options, and support. But from a subjective standpoint, personal taste is personal.

[Beheld]

If I'm a Dragon, I confess, I don't feel very mocked by DFA breaths. A Dragon is usually hitting at least twice the damage of a DFA's breath weapon level for level. And metallic Dragons usually have two breaths. If you toss a Recover Breath feat on a Dragon they end up doing more damage and forcing a bunch of saves against status effects in the same time period, and they can almost always breath every round except when they roll bad, and then they can sweep wide on a strafe.

[WhamBamSam]

DFAs really aren't better at breath weapons than dragons who are relatively optimized for it. A Dragon of CR equal to the DFA's level will have many more feats (either to spend on metabreath feats, Rapid Breath+Recover Breath so that you only have to wait in between standard breath attacks 1/4 of the time, or the likes of Flyby Breath/Strafing Breath), better flight (significant for the likes of Flyby Breath/Strafing Breath), and better spell access (meaning they can use things like Breath Weapon Substitution and Dispelling Breath which measure up pretty well against DFA breath effects all on their own).

If you open up Dragon Magazine, then there's the Ravening Dragon Psychosis and Archdragon template which are pretty much the holy grails of CR-side Breath Weapon optimization (and in the case of Ravening, of ECL-side Breath Weapon optimization).

[Pluto!]

One's a variant Warlock. The other's a weaker Divine Mind.

...Yeah

[Khosan]

Probably the greatest redeeming factor of the Dragon Shaman is it's a pretty solid secondary gestalt class. Some good saves, 3/4 BAB, d10 hit die, and a largely passive set of support abilities that work with pretty much anything.

[Troacctid]

Probably the greatest redeeming factor of the Dragon Shaman is it's a pretty solid secondary gestalt class. Some good saves, 3/4 BAB, d10 hit die, and a largely passive set of support abilities that work with pretty much anything.

I disagree. Its passive abilities are weak to start off and scale very poorly, it has no skill points to speak of, it doesn't have full BAB, and Fort + Will is the same combination of good saves as premium passive classes like Incarnate, Binder, Cleric, Druid, and Ardent. It compares unfavorably to Paladin and Monk. That's really not a place where you want to be.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Long ago, I had some ideas sketched out for ways to make the Dragon Shaman more interesting; I'm an amateur homebrewer at best (and that's probably pushing it), and these are just brainstorms rather than strong and refined ideas, but if you're interested, they're in the spoiler.
Hmm. While normally I feel like slapping on ToB abilities is a sloppy fix, I rather like this. The breath-weapon-as-recovery-option is brilliant, and the disciplines you mentioned actually fit the existing abilities (I'd say Stone Dragon actually fits better than Tiger Claw-- dragons are more ponderous tanks than frenzied berserk, but that's a minor quibble).

The DS is actually really easy to houserule into competence.

Boost the auras (I'd say let the aura bonus equal your Charisma or class level, whichever is lower, but there are plenty of ways to do it)
Boost the breath weapon (I'd say d10/level, to match the big bad dragons)
Boost the chassis (I'd say full BAB and 4+Int skill points/level, but you could tie the skill boost to your Totem Dragon bit-- full ranks in the new class skills would work alright).
Grant abilities at a reasonable level (I'd say breath weapon at 1st and wings at 6th-8th)

I mean, you could do more-- Dragonblooded as a bonus feat at first, bonus Draconic or Metabreath feats every few levels, improve the NA bonus (Make it equal to your Con?), add more draconic features like claws and bite attacks-- but you get the idea.

[Aleolus]

... As opposed to DS, which... Has one and only one type, and can't change it at all, with the exception of Metabreath feats, which don't so much change as add riders to breath weapons.


As I already stated, yes, an individual Dragon Shaman is locked in with a single breath weapon, chosen by their Totem Dragon, but two different Dragon Shamans will probably have two different breath weapons, unless their totem dragons overlap there. All DFAs have a single breath weapon, a line of fire

[Nifft]

As I already stated, yes, an individual Dragon Shaman is locked in with a single breath weapon, chosen by their Totem Dragon, but two different Dragon Shamans will probably have two different breath weapons, unless their totem dragons overlap there. All DFAs have a single breath weapon, a line of fire

They have two at level 1: a line of fire, or a cone of fire.

At level 2, they have a choice of several other effects, so they have 3 at level 2, one of which isn't like every other DFA.

At level 5, they get another choice, so they specialize and diverge even further.

Breath weapon variety is not an area where a Dragon Shaman can win.

[Shadowbane13]

So to keep this thread interesting....
What would be a good prestige class or multi class for said DS?

[Rebel7284]

So to keep this thread interesting....
What would be a good prestige class or multi class for said DS?

They have the right saves to enter Ur Priest easily.

[ImperatorV]

Lastly, I dislike how the DFAs breath weapon works. You have one and only one type, and if you want to change it, you have to use your limited number of invocations known to try to make it what you want, and you can only use so many invocations at a time, meaning your ability to customize it is limited.

Uh... you do realize that a DFA automatically learns a breath effect, separate from it's normal invocation progression, at levels 2nd, 5th, 10th, 12th, 15th, and 20th? They don't spend invocations known, in fact by RAW they can't spend invocations known on breath effects. They get a couple for free and that's it.

[Khosan]

I disagree. Its passive abilities are weak to start off and scale very poorly, it has no skill points to speak of, it doesn't have full BAB, and Fort + Will is the same combination of good saves as premium passive classes like Incarnate, Binder, Cleric, Druid, and Ardent. It compares unfavorably to Paladin and Monk. That's really not a place where you want to be.

I'm not too familiar with Incarnate, Binder and Ardent, but what I like about Dragon Shaman in a gestalt is that it requires zero investment. No stats needed for spellcasting, no code of conduct and a very loose set of alignment restrictions. The auras are weak (and now that I've checked again, weaker than I remembered), but they're group-focused and helpful in more than just combat.

[Necroticplague]

Breath weapon. Both classes get one. The DS' breath weapon is usable every 1d4 rounds, making it eligible for metabreath feats, but its shape and energy type are strictly defined. The DFA's breath weapon is usable at-will as a standard action, so no metabreath feats (I think), but the various breath effects allow you to customize it in terms of shape, energy type, and rider effect. Further, since the breath weapon is your primary damage output, having low BAB is less of an issue. Advantage to DFA.

There's always the Power Surge feat if a DFA wants to mess around with metabreath feats. .

[Segev]

When I want to play a dragon in D&D, I often find myself looking at pseudodragon or white dragon wyrmling for my race, and DFA for a class on top of it. The breath is ultimately better than what I'd get as a dragon for the same ECL, and the invocations are "early access" sorcery, in feel. There's a little overlap in some areas, but it's usually still better than trying to play the full dragon chassis.

And DFA gets breath effects from a separate source than its invocations, making it not a direct sacrifice of "cool stuff" for breath weapon versatility the way Blast Shape and Eldrich Essence invocations are for Warlocks.

Finally, metabreath feats don't have a caveat of "must have a cooldown of X minimum length on your breath weapon to use this." They just add +1 or more rounds to the existing cooldown. Therefore, a metabreath feat used by a DFA adds 1 or more rounds to the normally 0-round cooldown. I see no reason in the RAW why a DFA couldn't pick up metabreath feats.

[Malimar]

Finally, metabreath feats don't have a caveat of "must have a cooldown of X minimum length on your breath weapon to use this." They just add +1 or more rounds to the existing cooldown. Therefore, a metabreath feat used by a DFA adds 1 or more rounds to the normally 0-round cooldown. I see no reason in the RAW why a DFA couldn't pick up metabreath feats.

Nope!


To take a metabreath feat, a creature must have a breath weapon whose time between breaths is expressed in rounds. Therefore, a hell hound (which can breathe once every 2d4 rounds) can take metabreath feats, whereas a behir (breath weapon usable 1/minute) cannot.


At 1st level, you gain a breath weapon that you can use at will as a standard action.

"At will" is not "expressed in rounds".

[Beheld]

Personally, if I'm a DFA, I'm just going to slap Dragonborn on whatever I was going to be beforehand, and then qualify for metabreath feats.


The breath is ultimately better than what I'd get as a dragon for the same ECL,

Uh... So? a Dragon of the same ECL is a Cohorts Cohorts Cohorts Cohorts mount.

A Juvenile Black is CR 7. CR 7. That's a thing that can spend six days tracking you, figuring out all your techniques, buying items specifically to beat you, and then laying an ambush, and then not even challenge you at level 10. But it's ECL 17! You can either play a this CR 7 Dragon, or, instead, you can have 17HD, who spends all day shapechanged into his bigger, stronger, more damaging breath weapon, harder to hit brother who has frightful presence, and DR. Oh yeah, and then also have all spells 1-8, to this guys none.

ECL rules are dumb. They are dumb on purpose to punish players for trying to play Dragons. Don't compare anything to ECL on monsters, because that's just a kludge to punish players for playing monsters.

[daremetoidareyo]

A Dvati DS with the vigor aura is constantly healing (each twin has 50% of the HP). Throw a few levels of Berserker strength barbarian on top of that to stay constantly buff. Double hulk smash for the rest of your life. Knockdown blah blah.

Add bladeproof skin feat from UA to have constant DR 3/bludgeoning added to that.

Pick Up levels of DS again once your HP is far below 5X barbarian level.

[Segev]

Nope!





"At will" is not "expressed in rounds".

Ah, I stand corrected. (It'd been a long while since I read the actual rules on it, so I'd just forgotten the rule was in there.)

[Malimar]

Ah, I stand corrected. (It'd been a long while since I read the actual rules on it, so I'd just forgotten the rule was in there.)

Yeah, it's easy to miss, not being in the text of any of the feats.

[Zaq]

A Dvati DS with the vigor aura is constantly healing (each twin has 50% of the HP). Throw a few levels of Berserker strength barbarian on top of that to stay constantly buff. Double hulk smash for the rest of your life. Knockdown blah blah.

Add bladeproof skin feat from UA to have constant DR 3/bludgeoning added to that.

Pick Up levels of DS again once your HP is far below 5X barbarian level.

I don't think dvati work the way you think they do. They each have half HP compared to a normal character (give or take the fact that CON isn't halved), but each twin's HP total is their HP total. If a normal character would have 50 HP, and each dvati twin has 25 HP, that doesn't mean that their "real" HP max is 50. It's 25 for Twin A, and it's 25 for Twin B. (If this weren't the case, you could cast healing magic at them and heal each one up to 50 HP, which clearly isn't legal.) So a dvati Dragon Shaman (or a dvati with an allied DS, whatever) has to get down to half of a given twin's max HP before the Vigor aura affects them.

A dvati DS might be able to project two auras at once, though, one from each twin. I think. Maybe. Dvati are basically just one giant rules headache after another. Or maybe two giant rules headaches that count as one giant rules headache for some purposes.

[daremetoidareyo]

I don't think dvati work the way you think they do. They each have half HP compared to a normal character (give or take the fact that CON isn't halved), but each twin's HP total is their HP total. If a normal character would have 50 HP, and each dvati twin has 25 HP, that doesn't mean that their "real" HP max is 50. It's 25 for Twin A, and it's 25 for Twin B. (If this weren't the case, you could cast healing magic at them and heal each one up to 50 HP, which clearly isn't legal.) So a dvati Dragon Shaman (or a dvati with an allied DS, whatever) has to get down to half of a given twin's max HP before the Vigor aura affects them.

A dvati DS might be able to project two auras at once, though, one from each twin. I think. Maybe. Dvati are basically just one giant rules headache after another. Or maybe two giant rules headaches that count as one giant rules headache for some purposes.

Quick question then,

If you're standing in the middle of 2 different fast healing 1 auras, do you heal as though you were standing in a fast healing 2 aura?

[Zaq]

Quick question then,

If you're standing in the middle of 2 different fast healing 1 auras, do you heal as though you were standing in a fast healing 2 aura?

Good question. In the case of the DS's Vigor aura, I would say . . . probably? Bonuses from the same source don't stack, but Fast Healing isn't really a bonus per se, so it would probably work. Unless there's a general rule that different sources of FH don't stack? I didn't see anything in the Rules Compendium description about that.

Maybe not, though. I mean, it says "Fast healing 1 for each point of your aura bonus," not "increase fast healing by 1 for each point of aura bonus." Though maybe it's good that it doesn't, because then it might run into global stacking rules?

I guess the question comes down to this: if you have Fast Healing 1 from a different source (the Lesser Vigor spell, a Druid's Spontaneous Regeneration ACF, or something else), and you're in an aura that grants Fast Healing 1 (assume that you meet whatever other requirements are present, like being below 50% HP or whatever), do you heal 1 HP per round or 2 HP per round? Does Fast Healing ever stack? I think we need to answer that question before we can decide if two DS Vigor auras are compatible with each other. If FH does stack, then the question comes down to whether an ability that grants FH 1 is a "bonus" (and thus subject to the global stacking rules) or simply an ability (and thus not subject to the global stacking rules). If FH doesn't stack, then it doesn't matter if your two sources of FH are "the same source" or not.

Assuming it does work, though, it wouldn't be 100% accurate to say "as though you were in a fast healing 2 aura," though; I think you'd heal 2 HP per round, but it would come as two "packets" of 1 HP apiece, which could have some interactions with other abilities. (Can't think of any specific abilities off the top of my head, but still, it'd be Fast Healing 1 + Fast Healing 1, not Fast Healing 2. Assuming, of course, that it works at all, which isn't ironclad by any means.)

[Necroticplague]

Quick question then,

If you're standing in the middle of 2 different fast healing 1 auras, do you heal as though you were standing in a fast healing 2 aura?

Not quiet. You would have two different instances of Fast Healing 1. However, the end result, that you would heal 2 HP per turn, is the same, with some minor exceptions (i.e, if you were 1 HP away from half, you would be healed by one, then lose both fast healings, not heal by two).

[Chronos]

For the first three levels, a dragon shaman is doing nothing but weapon combat. They bring along some nice benefits in the auras, but what they're actually doing is just weapon combat.

And even after that, they're still spending most of their time just doing weapon combat. They'll use their breath weapon at the start of each combat (assuming that the enemies aren't immune to that particular energy, and assuming that there aren't any allies or innocents mixed in with the enemies), and then they'll just use weapons until the breath weapon comes off cooldown.

And they suck at using weapons. They don't have the worse BAB in the game, but neither is it actually good. They don't get any class features that improve weapon combat, not even the fighter's bonus feats. They don't even have proficiency in decent weapons. The only classes that are worse than dragon shamans at weapon combat are classes who are intended to never be falling back on weapons.

Compare this to an actual dragon. Like the DS, the actual dragon also has a cooldown on its breath weapon. It, too, will likely lead off with the breath weapon, and then spend a few rounds doing something else while it's waiting for its breath to cool down. But it actually has things it can do. It has spells. It has skills. And even if it does fall back on melee, it has six natural weapons with really high attack bonus and damage.

A dragonfire adept, meanwhile, also lacks any other good options for combat than their breath weapon... but that's OK, because they can always use their breath weapon. A DFA might be a one-trick pony, but a DS is only a fraction of a trick (1/1d4).

[Invader]

There's always the Power Surge feat if a DFA wants to mess around with metabreath feats. .

I believe the preferred method is being a dragonborn an acquiring a breath weapon that way and applying meta breath feats to only that breath while still being able to spam your DFA breath without the modifiers.

[Psyren]

I think they both have their pros and cons, and that you could combine elements from both to make the ultimate dragon-channeling base class. Something that has invocations, auras, scales, a spammable breath weapon (with breath effects) that lets you change the shape and energy type round by round, and then you can apply Metabreath feats or similar to it in order to get the more powerful cooldown version if you need to nova your way out of a bad situation. This gives you the tactical choice between smaller but more reliable and mutable damage, or nuking the battlefield in an emergency but then being unable to use it at all for a little while if that didn't finish the job, forcing you to fall back on invocations, weapons or UMD for a while instead.

For the breath weapon itself, I would say you should be able to add Con or ½ Con to the breath weapon's damage to help it compete with blasting spells a bit better. I'd also say that you start off being able to freely choose between the 4 basic energy types (fire, cold, electricity, acid) and then you need breath effects for the more exotic ones (sonic, force, positive, negative.) Perhaps switching shape and type can be done as a single move action, which you can then reduce to a swift and free as you gain levels.

[Chronos]

A dragonfire adept's breath weapon certainly doesn't qualify you to take metabreath feats. But one can argue that if you have a breath weapon that does qualify (like from Dragonborn), you can then apply the metabreath feats to your DFA breath. At least, there don't seem to be any rules that prevent this, though a DM would be well justified to houserule against it.

Oh, and Power Surge is a pretty good feat to take on a DFA even if you're not planning on using it to qualify for metabreath.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I believe the preferred method is being a dragonborn an acquiring a breath weapon that way and applying meta breath feats to only that breath while still being able to spam your DFA breath without the modifiers.

At least, there don't seem to be any rules that prevent this, though a DM would be well justified to houserule against it.
Pretty much this. I'd honestly feel more comfortable asking for my breath weapon to just qualify as if it had a 0-round countdown than claiming that I can qualify with one ability and apply the benefit to another.

[Beheld]

Pretty much this. I'd honestly feel more comfortable asking for my breath weapon to just qualify as if it had a 0-round countdown than claiming that I can qualify with one ability and apply the benefit to another.

Some people seem to have an obsession with RAW as opposed to recognizing that the RAW is often times terrible, and should be improved often.

But Dragonborn also grants +2 Con which is pretty much the only stat a DFA cares about, so while Dragonborn Mind or Wings is probably better, Breath is fine.

[daremetoidareyo]

Some people seem to have an obsession with RAW as opposed to recognizing that the RAW is often times terrible, and should be improved often.

But Dragonborn also grants +2 Con which is pretty much the only stat a DFA cares about, so while Dragonborn Mind or Wings is probably better, Breath is fine.

Yeah, but you're locked into Good alignment. I hate good alignment. Not as a concept, but for how stilting it is on player creativity. I'll take evil for evil's sake any day over another LG paladin or CG thief. Asking for a 0 round cool down would by my preferred tactic as well.

[Beheld]

Yeah, but you're locked into Good alignment. I hate good alignment. Not as a concept, but for how stilting it is on player creativity. I'll take evil for evil's sake any day over another LG paladin or CG thief. Asking for a 0 round cool down would by my preferred tactic as well.

Meh, if you want to be evil you can ask for Tiamat Born, no good reason it couldn't exist, but there is absolutely no reason good has to limit player creativity. Yeah it would suck if you could never play a good character, but the range of what can count as a good character is pretty extensive.

[Red Fel]

But Dragonborn also grants +2 Con which is pretty much the only stat a DFA cares about, so while Dragonborn Mind or Wings is probably better, Breath is fine.

To be fair, DFAs get flight as a Lesser Invocation, although it's not Ex flight. So you don't need Wings aspect if you want to fly as a DFA. Similarly, the sensory abilities granted by the Mind aspect - Darkvision, Low-light vision, Blindsense - can be replicated by various invocations (See the Unseen, Voidsense).

So if you want to get a round-based breath weapon for metabreath feats on top of your existing DFA at-will breath weapon, there's nothing wrong with going straight for Heart aspect.

... Come to think of it, DFA can reproduce just about everything a Dragonborn does, huh?

[Beheld]

To be fair, DFAs get flight as a Lesser Invocation, although it's not Ex flight. So you don't need Wings aspect if you want to fly as a DFA. Similarly, the sensory abilities granted by the Mind aspect - Darkvision, Low-light vision, Blindsense - can be replicated by various invocations (See the Unseen, Voidsense).

So if you want to get a round-based breath weapon for metabreath feats on top of your existing DFA at-will breath weapon, there's nothing wrong with going straight for Heart aspect.

... Come to think of it, DFA can reproduce just about everything a Dragonborn does, huh?

I can find other things to spend invocations on, is my point.

[Troacctid]

Lesser invocations are pretty valuable, and you only get two. Getting your flight as a racial ability is like getting an extra lesser invocation.

[Nifft]

... Come to think of it, DFA can reproduce just about everything a Dragonborn does, huh? Dragon emulators gonna dragon emulate.

(Well, except the Dragon Shaman.)

[Chronos]

Dragonborn are only required to be nonevil and to fight against evil dragonkind. They don't have to be good. So there's still plenty of room to be morally conflicted.

Heck, you can be good and still morally conflicted. Nobody's perfect.

[Necroticplague]

But that means you take way more damage from the very useful Fivefold Breath of Tiamat.