Rogue, sneak attack with thrown handaxe?

[Aasimar]

Can a rogue sneak attack with a thrown handaxe? I mean, does it count as ranged for those purposes?

[Arkhios]

I think not, hand axe is listed as a melee weapon which has the thrown property, while ranged weapons are listed separately.

As a DM, however, I would allow it as a houserule, if anything.

[SharkForce]

I think not, hand axe is listed as a melee weapon which has the thrown property, while ranged weapons are listed separately.

As a DM, however, I would allow it as a houserule, if anything.

agreed. technically not allowed, but i would allow it anyways.

[Human Paragon 3]

agreed. technically not allowed, but i would allow it anyways.

Mike Mearls says he allows it at his table, but it's not RAW.

[Slipperychicken]

Mike Mearls says he allows it at his table, but it's not RAW.

That's good enough for me. It makes perfect sense, isn't broken, and even the head of the 5e team does it at his own table.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Can a rogue sneak attack with a thrown handaxe? I mean, does it count as ranged for those purposes?

RAW: As others have said, no.

Rule of Cool: Yes, hell yes.

And really a DM doesn't need to restrict sneak attack to any weapon, the damage is pretty balanced no matter what you use (as in you don't suddenly go crazy high in damage).

[SharkForce]

RAW: As others have said, no.

Rule of Cool: Yes, hell yes.

And really a DM doesn't need to restrict sneak attack to any weapon, the damage is pretty balanced no matter what you use (as in you don't suddenly go crazy high in damage).

well, not quite.

being able to sneak attack with a weapon that qualifies for the polearm mastery feat could make sneak attack *really* easy to get on someone else's turn with a relatively low investment. and allowing it on a heavy weapon would mean that you could combine the two highest damage options in the game pretty much... something like 5 levels of barbarian or battlemaster fighter, using a glaive with polearm mastery and great weapon master, then going mostly into rogue, would give what i suspect would be an extremely high DPR value.

[JumboWheat01]

To be fair, if the monster somehow doesn't see you and your big weapon and focus on you enough, it deserves whatever sneak attacks come its way.

Though I'm away from my book, but do hand axes have the finesse property? That's the thing I look at, since rogue Sneak Attack says it requires the finesse property, not that you have to use it, but that the weapon needs it.

So I could totally see a sneak attack with a thrown dagger.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

well, not quite.

being able to sneak attack with a weapon that qualifies for the polearm mastery feat could make sneak attack *really* easy to get on someone else's turn with a relatively low investment. and allowing it on a heavy weapon would mean that you could combine the two highest damage options in the game pretty much... something like 5 levels of barbarian or battlemaster fighter, using a glaive with polearm mastery and great weapon master, then going mostly into rogue, would give what i suspect would be an extremely high DPR value.


I don't play AL, AL is borked and the game is already unbalanced so I don't really care much for it. So my response is for the idea of a homegame.

There really isn't much difference when going Fighter or Barbarian 5 as there is now, the only difference is the base damage dice. All the other stuff is pretty much the same. The fact that Great Weapon Fighting (fighter reroll 1s & 2s) doesn't apply to extra damage really keeps things from going as crazy as what some people think it would.

Heavy Weapon Master would give the Rogue 10 extra points, they could use the 10 extra points (-5 to attack). Fighters already can give the rogue a reaction attack that can be used quite a bit. Barbarians make the rogue work off strength and not dexterity so you can have a conflict of interest there.

Polearm Master + Sentinel + GWF = Meh. You need three feats (level 8) with no ASI boosts so you will be using a 16 strength for the polearm, your AC iss going to sufferscunless you MC or pick up the armored feats (both of which will delay your ASI by a few levels).

There are already Barbarian/Rogue and Fighter/Rogue builds that do a lot of damage, I don't see letting a straight class Rogue not jump through hoops as being a bad thing.

Will it do nice damage? Sure, but it won't be anything we don't already see.



To be fair, if the monster somehow doesn't see you and your big weapon and focus on you enough, it deserves whatever sneak attacks come its way.

Though I'm away from my book, but do hand axes have the finesse property? That's the thing I look at, since rogue Sneak Attack says it requires the finesse property, not that you have to use it, but that the weapon needs it.

So I could totally see a sneak attack with a thrown dagger.


I'm confused with what you are saying, you can already sneak attack with a thrown dagger.

Duel daggers is like the best way to currently RAW Rogue.

[SharkForce]

barbarian gives advantage on every attack, pretty important for making GWM work for you.

there is zero need for sentinel. polearm master gives you an attack when someone moves up to you, which should happen fairly often when you have a polearm.

rogues don't need extra damage to make them good, they have their out-of-combat utility to make them good. they shouldn't be as good at dealing damage as a fighter or barbarian, that is the opposite of balance. no idea why you think AL is relevant though. my answer was not "here are the AL rules", it was "here's what happens if you allow sneak attack with literally any weapon". and what happens is that barbarian 5/rogue 15 becomes basically the best damage-dealer, and is also better at every other damage-dealer in utility (with the exception of the actual single-classed rogue). you would also be perfectly fine from an AC perspective... just slap on some medium armour, no problems.

yes, you can get sneak attack on someone else's turn in other ways. those ways generally require you to spend resources. they have a cost, and the cost shouldn't be that you have to take a feat that is already one of the best DPR-increasing feats in the game.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

barbarian gives advantage on every attack, pretty important for making GWM work for you.

there is zero need for sentinel. polearm master gives you an attack when someone moves up to you, which should happen fairly often when you have a polearm.

rogues don't need extra damage to make them good, they have their out-of-combat utility to make them good. they shouldn't be as good at dealing damage as a fighter or barbarian, that is the opposite of balance. no idea why you think AL is relevant though. my answer was not "here are the AL rules", it was "here's what happens if you allow sneak attack with literally any weapon". and what happens is that barbarian 5/rogue 15 becomes basically the best damage-dealer, and is also better at every other damage-dealer in utility (with the exception of the actual single-classed rogue). you would also be perfectly fine from an AC perspective... just slap on some medium armour, no problems.

yes, you can get sneak attack on someone else's turn in other ways. those ways generally require you to spend resources. they have a cost, and the cost shouldn't be that you have to take a feat that is already one of the best DPR-increasing feats in the game.

The AL thing is because I know someone would have came along and said "but AL blah blah blah".

I'm aware of what the Barbarian gives the Rogue, however there are already builds that capitalize on this. Heck, there are rogue builds (moderately armored + shield master strogue) that don't need barbarian levels. Expertise in athletics on a strength based character and you are almost guaranteed to always win shove contests.

The point of sentinel is that there is already an option for attacking off turn without multiclassing. You can also get a friendly Fighter to tell you to attack.

Barbarian/Rogue, without allowing any weapon to be used with sneak attack, is already one of the best damage dealers. There have been tons of builds with those two classes, you are late to the party.

Multiclassing and feats wouldn't boost the Rogue in terms of damage any more than what they would already do. All of the combos that would work with a higher base weapon dice work with a d8 base weapon dice.

The only difference would be that you are changing a d8 for a 1d10 or 2d6 and maybe (depending on the build) adding on 10 more damage from GWM (if you even go that way, there are many other things you would want to pick up first).


TL;DR: Allowing a rouge to sneak attack with any weapon wouldn't make it broken. All the high damage multiclass builds and attacking on another's turn tactics are already in play one way or another.

[SharkForce]

none of the current multiclass high damage builds combine GWM and PM with sneak attack, which pushes damage even higher than anyone else can get. mostly because it doesn't work, presumably.

and sentinel is not a good rogue feat. it requires you to be adjacent, it requires that you don't mind being attacked over everyone else, and it requires that you be able to reach the target. now, a rogue *can* stand on the front lines certainly, but you're not going to enjoy your time there for very long unless you have your reaction available to spend on uncanny dodge. which means you're not getting sentinel. which means that you can't use it to sneak attack. unless you're cool with getting killed, that is. personally, i find that causes problems for me.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

none of the current multiclass high damage builds combine GWM and PM with sneak attack, which pushes damage even higher than anyone else can get. mostly because it doesn't work, presumably.

and sentinel is not a good rogue feat. it requires you to be adjacent, it requires that you don't mind being attacked over everyone else, and it requires that you be able to reach the target. now, a rogue *can* stand on the front lines certainly, but you're not going to enjoy your time there for very long unless you have your reaction available to spend on uncanny dodge. which means you're not getting sentinel. which means that you can't use it to sneak attack. unless you're cool with getting killed, that is. personally, i find that causes problems for me.

I've found that sentinel is a fantastic feat for Rogues. Especially when a character (paladin or multiclass fighter or paladin) has the protecting fighting style. Combine that with uncanny dodge and you have a nice set up.

If the target attacks your ally? Sneak Attack from sentinel.

If the target attacks you? Disadvantage from ally. If they hit even after that you can use uncanny dodge if you feel the need to.

It becomes a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario where both (or more) allies get to shine. After you clear out the hordes and you get to the big baddie this tactic really shines.

We can spend countless hours talking about group tactics, but then again you don't think sentinel is a good feat for the rogue so it isn't like that would be worth anyone's time as you already made up your mind on the feat without thinking through the actual tactics of the game. its a abstract combat game that typically revolves around *teamwork* to get stuff done.

===

Barbarian 5/Rogue 15

Weapon Damage: 1d10 (glaive or whatever)
Ability Score Damage: +5
Rage: +2 damage
GWM: +10
Polearm Master (third attack/turn)
Sneak Attack: 8d6 (1/turn, at most 2/round)

Three attacks per turn (4 per round possible)

Attacking off turn isn't going to happen every round so let's focus on your turn.

GWM -5 negates the advantage of advantage when it comes to numbers (except for crits) as advantage equals +3.33 whatever. Overall you are at -2 to your attack (but you still crit more often). So while raging, which you can do only 3/day) your damage looks like...

1d10 + 5 + 2 + 10 + 8d6 (if qualifies for SA, this is very variable as not all DMs allow Swashbuckler). (51 dmg)

1d10+5+2+10 (22.5)

1d4 + 5 + 2 + 10 (19.5)

Total Average = 93

Which is about the same as a Frenzy Barbarian (I think the frenzy barbarian has 92/turn).

Of course the rogue has the off turn which will bring him up to 144. Well that isn't a problem at all.

At level 20 you aren't fighting stupid goblins all that much, they aren't going to just run into the slaughter. Now, it would be good to throw mobs at your players from time to time and let your rogue feel awesome by getting that off turn attack, but when it really matters? That off turn attack isn't something that will happen a lot. Do you really think a lich, Dragon, or high ranking demon will be falling for such low level tactics? Nah.

At this level if you don't have the utility to back up your damage, decent allies at the least, you could be doing a million damage per round and it wouldn't matter. Drop disadvantage on the Rogue and even if they have advantage on their attack (reckless attack) they still don't get their sneak attack (dev confirmed).

So yeah if you play the game like a robot at very high levels then the Rogue Barbarian can be considered OP. But if you play the game with a slightest bit of immersion then the Roguebarian (with GWM) isn't nearly as OP as people would claim.

Of course the easy thing to do is get rid of GWM as I and many people I've talked to IRL do even without the thought of Rogue (+heavy blade) + Barbarian multiclass.

[SharkForce]

oh, well hey, if it "only" does as much damage as the highest-damage character in the game (who can only afford to reach that high damage when expending a major resource that can be used, at most, a couple times per game), unless it gets a sneak attack outside of its own turn, i'm sure that's perfectly reasonable. not like displacing the highest damage build in the game, but with fewer drawbacks and more versatility, invalidates every other build...

oh wait, that's kind of exactly what it does. yeah, no thanks, i'll pass on allowing that build into any game where i'm DMing. damage-dealing is not the only useful ability in the game, but it is in fact a useful ability, and it absolutely does matter how much of it characters can do. in point of fact, damage-dealing is going to be the great majority of what a fairly large variety of characters bring to a party, with very little else to recommend them, which quite frankly kinda limits the amount of damage you can safely hand out to others without making those character concepts stop being good at the one thing they're capable of.

or, in other words, we go right back to 3.5 where if you choose the wrong character concept, you might not be good at anything at all. i'd rather not bring tier 5 back into the game, personally. there are things that i don't like about 5e, but making it so that fighters are at least very good at one thing and reasonably competent in a few others instead of just being bad at everything like they were in 5e is not one of those things.

also, i'm not entirely clear on what you think high level monsters are going to do that is so incredibly clever that they are just never going to approach you, ever. it has absolutely nothing to do with "clever". monsters that need to get within your reach to melee you will have no choice but to come into your reach, or to just stand there and let you walk up, stab them a couple of times, and then step back. perhaps allowing themselves to be stabbed to death while not fighting back is clever in your books, but it sounds pretty dumb in mine.

as regards sentinel, once it becomes obvious that you have it, it's pretty easily countered in core (at least, against a rogue). all they have to do is attack from the side where you are not, and your typical rogue won't get to use sentinel at all. if they have any sort of reach, you will get sentinel approximately never (has to be within 5 feet of you).

meanwhile, you've condemned the guy next to you to using a shield (which means any reasonable threat he might have posed that might induce enemies to attack him rather than ignore him in the first place is basically gone, because now that he doesn't have crucial damage-increasing feats he is indeed quite irrelevant offensively. unless he's a paladin, in which case he might still have enough abilities to annoy enemies into attacking him first) so that he can offer some limited protection to you once per round against a single attack. and once you've each used your ability once, that leaves them to spend the rest of their attacks wherever they want.

perhaps if you heavily houserule things enough, handing out better damage than the best damage-dealer while still having substantial amounts of utility doesn't sound like a problem. to me, that sounds like a recipe for invalidating a number of builds that are quite valid normally. YMMV i suppose.

[Zalabim]

barbarian gives advantage on every attack, pretty important for making GWM work for you.1

there is zero need for sentinel. polearm master gives you an attack when someone moves up to you, which should happen fairly often when you have a polearm.2

rogues don't need extra damage to make them good, they have their out-of-combat utility to make them good. they shouldn't be as good at dealing damage as a fighter or barbarian, that is the opposite of balance.3 no idea why you think AL is relevant though. my answer was not "here are the AL rules", it was "here's what happens if you allow sneak attack with literally any weapon". and what happens is that barbarian 5/rogue 15 becomes basically the best damage-dealer, and is also better at every other damage-dealer in utility (with the exception of the actual single-classed rogue). you would also be perfectly fine from an AC perspective... just slap on some medium armour, no problems.4

yes, you can get sneak attack on someone else's turn in other ways. those ways generally require you to spend resources. they have a cost, and the cost shouldn't be that you have to take a feat that is already one of the best DPR-increasing feats in the game.5

1: Reckless Attack only works on your turn.
2: Why? Unless you're alone, or tightly packed into your threatened area, why would any enemy move up to the raging barbarian with a polearm of all the options? That's assuming they have no ranged options, too.
3: Rogues don't have as much HP, or as good of defenses as fighters and barbarians. Their damage is also situational. If they can't hide, trip, trick, or have someone to distract the target, they don't get their damage. I'd say that's cost enough to be comparable, if not equal, in damage when it all comes together.
4: You can get the same AC as the pure rogue if you wear expensive armor that gives disadvantage on stealth checks and have spent extra stat points to raise another stat to 14.
5: Because Reckless Attack doesn't apply when it isn't your turn, the reaction opportunity attack from Polearm Master will essentially never be a sneak attack. They aren't within 5', so swashbuckler doesn't work. They shouldn't be adjacent to another enemy because they're moving into your reach. Any other source of advantage probably makes them unable to move, and definitely comes from some other character since it will probably be a spell you can't cast while raging.


Far too long to quote it all.

Barbarian 5/Rogue 15

Weapon Damage: 1d10 (glaive or whatever)
Ability Score Damage: +5
Rage: +2 damage
GWM: +10
Polearm Master (third attack/turn)
Sneak Attack: 8d6 (1/turn, at most 2/round)

Three attacks per turn (4 per round possible)

Attacking off turn isn't going to happen every round so let's focus on your turn.

GWM -5 negates the advantage of advantage when it comes to numbers (except for crits) as advantage equals +3.33 whatever. Overall you are at -2 to your attack (but you still crit more often). So while raging, which you can do only 3/day) your damage looks like...

1d10 + 5 + 2 + 10 + 8d6 (if qualifies for SA, this is very variable as not all DMs allow Swashbuckler). (51 dmg)

1d10+5+2+10 (22.5)

1d4 + 5 + 2 + 10 (19.5)

Total Average = 93

Realistic math has damage while already raging as 73.76 average, 57.95 on the round rage gets activated, and 69.92 on rounds not raging. The reaction attack worth 9.275 when raging, or 8.475 when not.

Max's favorite AT does 56.625 with booming blade and an extra 15.795 if they move. I suppose it accomplishes this by taking Mobile, prebuffing with Mage Hand, distracting with the bonus action for advantage, casting booming blade and then stepping out of reach. Mobile is optional if you don't mind taking the OA.

If I make assumptions like a DPR spreadsheet, I'd put the AT at 70.767 and the HR-Raging Rogue-nado at 73.9088 as a daily DPR average. I expect the AT could do better if it used any of its spells for combat.

So my giveaway from this math would be don't allow polearms to sneak attack unless you want to see players in an arms race like this.

[darkrose50]

Rogues don't need extra damage to make them good, they have their out-of-combat utility to make them good. they shouldn't be as good at dealing damage as a fighter or barbarian, that is the opposite of balance.


Fighters should get some out-of-combat abilities as well. I am quite pleased with the decoupling of Intelligence from skills in 5e as this was a definite step in the right direction.

Some bonus to history, nobility, and leadership should be in there quiver. History for heraldry, the history of the noble houses houses, and the ability to lead should be in the fighters non-combat skill suite.

[SharkForce]

Fighters should get some out-of-combat abilities as well. I am quite pleased with the decoupling of Intelligence from skills in 5e as this was a definite step in the right direction.

Some bonus to history, nobility, and leadership should be in there quiver. History for heraldry, the history of the noble houses houses, and the ability to lead should be in the fighters non-combat skill suite.

they can have those things. just have to choose the right background.

edit: @ zalabim

- people will move to the raging barbarian with a polearm if they are melee creatures because the other option is to stand there and do nothing for some creatures. like i said, it isn't a function of how clever the creature is, it is a function of whether or not they have enough reach (or a ranged attack i suppose). any enemy that doesn't have reach isn't going to have much of a choice but to approach, whether they like it or not, because not approaching is inviting the enemy to just make free attacks against them. i suppose they could also just run away, but at that point you just won the fight anyways.

you are right on reckless attack, i suppose, but the free attack with GWM is still just a straight boost. basically, the point still stands; it is not desirable to create one warrior to rule them all in the DPR category that also beats every warrior in utility. it would still be possible to get advantage on the attack, but not without spending further resources at least. on a side note, it remains entirely possible to get sneak attack against an enemy that moves up next to an ally on the opposite side from you, though.

(also, you could just park yourself in the second rank, and anyone who moves up to the front rank is going to be eligible for a sneak attack if you could do it with a polearm... basically, it just isn't a good idea to let someone stack their DPR decisively higher than all of the current highest DPR builds while also being better in almost every other way possible too, regardless of the precise mechanics involved; i could care less if a rogue sneak attacks with a rapier or a long sword, or if they use a dagger or a hand axe. but i do have problems getting sneak attack with a glaive or a halberd or a greataxe, because that makes other primarily damage-dealing characters lose a lot of value).

[Naanomi]

I thought stacking Great Weapon Style with sneak attack was also part of the problem with opening up rogue weapon options? Did I miss that above?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I thought stacking Great Weaon Style with sneak attack was also part of the problem with opening up rogue weapon options? Did I miss that above?

The Fighter Fighting style? That only applies to weapon damage and not extra damage, as said by the Devs.

Edit: You know what, I think I hate wotc for naming those two things so similar.

Edit: Also, from above, most people aren't going to get into an arms race except on the internets. A big part of 5e, straight from the get go, is that DMs adjust things.

Take out the -5/+10 and you are golden as that will reduce the damage per round by 30 - 40 pts (2 attacks, bonus action attack, and reaction attack).

[SharkForce]

The Fighter Fighting style? That only applies to weapon damage and not extra damage, as said by the Devs.

Edit: You know what, I think I hate wotc for naming those two things so similar.

Edit: Also, from above, most people aren't going to get into an arms race except on the internets. A big part of 5e, straight from the get go, is that DMs adjust things.

Take out the -5/+10 and you are golden as that will reduce the damage per round by 30 - 40 pts (2 attacks, bonus action attack, and reaction attack).

take out -5/+10 and you just took out a large chunk of what makes fighters and barbarians useful.

[Naanomi]

The Fighter Fighting style? That only applies to weapon damage and not extra damage, as said by the Devs.
Another 'rules say X, devs say Y; but no formal errata' situation; though we are already talking house rules so probably not an issue

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Another 'rules say X, devs say Y; but no formal errata' situation; though we are already talking house rules so probably not an issue

No.

The rules say weapon damage, sneak attack isn't your weapon damage but extra damage from a class feature. The devs just clarified something that p[eople are truing to munchin.


GWF talks about damage coming from the weapon you are holding in two hands.

Sneak Attack and Smite are extra damage. Smite clearly calls out smite as "in addition to weapon damage" and sneak attack is called "extra damage". Neither one of these are damage from the base weapon but damage that comes from other sources (class features).

Essentially the way it should be read, as told by the devs even, is that GWF lets you reroll the damage from the weapon and not damage from any other source. Even the battle master's extra damage dice aren't rerolled with this feature.

If the abilities said "your base weapon damage increases" or something along those lines then GWF would work with it. The champions critical bonus works with this because the critical is base weapon damage and not anything "extra".

Edit


take out -5/+10 and you just took out a large chunk of what makes fighters and barbarians useful.

They do just fine with damage versus the game without that feature. Play one before you say stuff like that.

The Fighter and Barbarian need to be fixed, yes, but not because of damage. They don't grow past level 8 ish except for *maor numbahs* and I'm going to do what I did before... ONE/TWO/THREE MORE TIMES!

A little bit of that ain't bad but a class shouldn't revolve around such stagnation.

[PoeticDwarf]

Can a rogue sneak attack with a thrown handaxe? I mean, does it count as ranged for those purposes?

Thrown weapons count as melee weapons and melee weapon attacks.

You can always throw daggers :/