Beguilers at High Levels

[NuclearCommando]

As the title suggests, what do you do with a Beguiler at higher levels? Enchantment gets outdone by all those fun things like Mind Affecting Immunity, and that's annoying. Do you go into Ultimate Magus or something? Is there a metamagic feat like Pathfinder's Thanatopic Metamagic that makes spells go through mind affecting?

Or do you pull a Rainbow Warsnake and abuse your fixed list caster status?

What does a high (>13) level beguiler do at a medium level of optimization?

[Grod_The_Giant]

There are some easy ways to expand the list, such as a Sand Shaper dip, Runestaves + UMD, or (probably?) Prestige Bard. Plus Shadow Evocation/Conjuration are easy to pick up via Advanced Learning. If you want more power than that, you can always go full-on Shadowcraft Mage.

[Inevitability]

Buffing can be quite helpful. Put Blur or Invisibility on your rogue or Haste on your barbarian; they'll be grateful.

Spells like Slow can also be very effective against certain foes.

[John Longarrow]

Mid level, your the rogue who's able to sneak into anyplace, take care of a lot of recon/traps, and help coordinate attacks. You do pretty much everything a rogue does but better. Rogue gets sneak attack which is often useless (undead, constructs, other nasties) and two more skill points / level. You still have all your spells.

[Cosi]

There are some easy ways to expand the list, such as a Sand Shaper dip, Runestaves + UMD, or (probably?) Prestige Bard. Plus Shadow Evocation/Conjuration are easy to pick up via Advanced Learning. If you want more power than that, you can always go full-on Shadowcraft Mage.

Most of that is good advice. But I wouldn't go Sand Shaper or Prestige Bard. You lose a level of casting for a few extra spells. Not really a great deal. You're better off going for PrCs that grant domains (i.e. Divine Oracle), even a short dip in Rainbow Servant (CL +1 holy word is good).

You should also take Arcane Disciple some number of times. Look for spells that don't have saves, such as BFC (evard's black tentacles or wall of stone, rather than stinking cloud), buffs, or good utility spells. Getting animate dead or planar binding can also be good depending on how powerful you expect the campaign to be.

Also, the basic package of Enchantment and Illusion is still very solid. Very few things walk in with both true seeing and mindblank.

[Zaq]

Most of that is good advice. But I wouldn't go Sand Shaper or Prestige Bard. You lose a level of casting for a few extra spells. Not really a great deal. You're better off going for PrCs that grant domains (i.e. Divine Oracle), even a short dip in Rainbow Servant (CL +1 holy word is good).

You should also take Arcane Disciple some number of times. Look for spells that don't have saves, such as BFC (evard's black tentacles or wall of stone, rather than stinking cloud), buffs, or good utility spells. Getting animate dead or planar binding can also be good depending on how powerful you expect the campaign to be.

Also, the basic package of Enchantment and Illusion is still very solid. Very few things walk in with both true seeing and mindblank.

Debatable. Sand Shaper gives a LOT of extra spells, and they're relatively varied. Plus, once you know 'em, you know 'em. Arcane Disciple only gives you one casting per day of the domain spells—and you have to have WIS to cast them, which isn't a guarantee for every Beguiler. A lost caster level is a cost that shouldn't always be ignored, and I'm not saying otherwise, but I wouldn't say it's automatically a bigger cost than a bunch of feats and whatever it takes you to have high WIS, as is necessary for taking Arcane Disciple "some number of times."

[Necroticplague]

As the title suggests, what do you do with a Beguiler at higher levels? Enchantment gets outdone by all those fun things like Mind Affecting Immunity, and that's annoying. Do you go into Ultimate Magus or something? Is there a metamagic feat like Pathfinder's Thanatopic Metamagic that makes spells go through mind affecting?

Or do you pull a Rainbow Warsnake and abuse your fixed list caster status?

What does a high (>13) level beguiler do at a medium level of optimization?

Go Rainbow Servant. Even without early entry tricks to go beguiler 1/rainbow servant 10, the capstone for Rainbow Servant is incredibly powerful on a Beguiler. Then you can be the caster Divine Soul wishes it could be.

[NuclearCommando]

Thank you for the tips! So far, I've considered either the Rainbow Servant path (which looks like fun as hell, since it's like my favorite class, the Wizard, except with cleric spells and on drugs) or the Shadowcraft Mage route.

Now, what would be a decent build with either of them? I can already guess how to play both of them, but a 1-20 build would be much appreciated for either.

[Troacctid]

Proteus is a good option for high-level Beguilers. Cast your glamers as an immediate action. Pretty nice.

[Cosi]

Debatable. Sand Shaper gives a LOT of extra spells, and they're relatively varied. Plus, once you know 'em, you know 'em.

That's true for anything, including Prestige Domains (which you can get without losing caster levels).


Arcane Disciple only gives you one casting per day of the domain spells—and you have to have WIS to cast them, which isn't a guarantee for every Beguiler. A lost caster level is a cost that shouldn't always be ignored, and I'm not saying otherwise, but I wouldn't say it's automatically a bigger cost than a bunch of feats and whatever it takes you to have high WIS, as is necessary for taking Arcane Disciple "some number of times."

The WIS is not that bad. Even base 12 gets you 17 after the bumps from midgame wishes, and that's already enough for most spells. You can get everything with a +2 Item.

Also, what are you even doing with feats otherwise? Beguilers don't really want that much in terms of feats (maybe Delay Spell metamagic stacking for time stop).


Now, what would be a decent build with either of them? I can already guess how to play both of them, but a 1-20 build would be much appreciated for either.

Rainbow Servant, No Early Entry: Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Anything (Incantatrix maybe) 4
Full spontaneous Cleric casting, telepathy, and whatever other random goodies.

Rainbow Servant, Early Entry: Beguiler 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 9
Full spontaneous Cleric casting, and the ability to pick up Wizard spells a couple of times a day.

Shadowcraft Mage: Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/<Random Shadow PrCs, including 5 levels of Shadowcraft Mage> 14
Standard Shadowcraft Mage build, plus Mindbender.

Remember, you arguably continue to get Advanced Learning if classes progress spells known.

[Beheld]

That's true for anything, including Prestige Domains (which you can get without losing caster levels).



The WIS is not that bad. Even base 12 gets you 17 after the bumps from midgame wishes, and that's already enough for most spells. You can get everything with a +2 Item.

Also, what are you even doing with feats otherwise? Beguilers don't really want that much in terms of feats (maybe Delay Spell metamagic stacking for time stop).



Rainbow Servant, No Early Entry: Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Anything (Incantatrix maybe) 4
Full spontaneous Cleric casting, telepathy, and whatever other random goodies.

Rainbow Servant, Early Entry: Beguiler 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 9
Full spontaneous Cleric casting, and the ability to pick up Wizard spells a couple of times a day.

Shadowcraft Mage: Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/<Random Shadow PrCs, including 5 levels of Shadowcraft Mage> 14
Standard Shadowcraft Mage build, plus Mindbender.

Remember, you arguably continue to get Advanced Learning if classes progress spells known.

Alternatively, if your DM really hates the idea of Rainbow Servant Capstone, and for some reason won't let you Shadowcraft Mage:

Beguiler 3/Rainbow Servant 4/Divine Oracle 1/Mindbender 1/Contemplative 6/whatever.

You can get Good, Air, Any two domains you want, and a Bloodline from Dragon Compendium.

If you are going high level you can get things like Moon Bolt and Fort save or dies (including Implosion) from Domains pretty easy from those Contemplative Domains.