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Saph
2007-06-14, 07:26 AM
Hey all - am currently trying to design a character for an upcoming game. It'll probably be somewhere in the 4th-10th level range.

I've never tried playing a gish character before, so I thought it'd be fun to try and make a Paladin with some spellcasting ability (as I get bored if I can't do anything besides hit things). Could you give me some advice? Here are the requirements:

• At least some levels of Paladin.
• Primary fighter with as much casting ability as possible.
• Has to hit its stride around levels 6-10 (no point being uber at level 15 if we never get there.)
• Books allowed: Core, Complete Series. Books banned: Tome of Battle. All others by request.

At the moment I'm thinking something along the lines of Paladin 4/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion X, which'll start working fairly well from level 7 up (I can probably persuade the DM to allow abjurant armour to work with mage armour), and use shield and mage armour to get a decent AC. For feats I was thinking Combat Casting (prerequisite for Abjurant Champion) and Practised Spellcaster.

Not sure about what other feats or spells to take, or what weapons to go for, so any suggestions would be appreciated - or even an entirely different build, as long as it does the same sort of thing. I haven't read Complete Champion yet, so there might be something in there that's useful.

Thanks!

- Saph

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-14, 07:32 AM
Hmmm...Paladin/Sorcerer sounds like a good idea. What about trying another level of Paladin to get the mount, then combine with Familiar and Monster Summonings/Augment Summoning feat plus the usual mass buffs (haste etc.) to always have some small paladin "army" if needed?

The gish tactics would then try to make use of feats that could make use of superior numbers (flanking, aid another, providing soft cover).

But that's just a first idea...will have to look at the complete series for more ideas.

- Giacomo

PS: a paladin/bard may even without the mount may make better use of such mass tactics...
Bards get animate object (albeit much) later, which produces a lot of creatures*. Shadow conjurations, I guess btw also get improved by augment summonings...
*darn! animated objects are immune to mind-affecting like inspire courage...

Ikkitosen
2007-06-14, 07:40 AM
Assuming you're not looking for uber optimisation (and I hope you're not :smallsmile: ) then your build looks solid - turning + divine feats + great AC + whackability + some sorc casting.

A more powerful build might be Pal 2 Sorc 6 AC X, which hits stride later but retains more casting, and there are a bunch of good spells you can cast in armour (swift and V, basically, so wraithstrike, displacement, true strike etc.).

Heck if you went dream dwarf (lose dex not cha) you could even go runesmith (assuming you can with spont casting - AFB) and dump AbjCh, good as it is. Wear armour and cast! Or if your DM rules against mage armour = abjuration do both :)

Pal 2 Sorc Runesmith AbjCh gets you plate armour and a swift shield spell plus great casting and wraithsrtike/power attack for smacking things with a war/great axe. Win!

Saph
2007-06-14, 07:47 AM
I'm building a gish, so pretty much by definition I'm not looking for uber optimisation. :) I just want something that's fun and good at as many things as possible.

I can't decide at the moment what mix of Paladin/Sorcerer to use - there's Pal 4/Sorc 2, Pal 3/Sorc 4, or Pal 2/Sorc 6. More sorcerer levels mean more caster power, but less HP, and delays getting into Abjurant Champion.

Don't know what Runesmith is - which book's it from?

Giacomo - I doubt I'd be able to summon all that much until getting to fairly high levels. Bard/Paladin might be possible though.

- Saph

Ikkitosen
2007-06-14, 08:04 AM
Runesmith is in Races of Stone - a dwarf class that allows casting in all armours!

The critical choice really is Pal 2 or 4 (just Grace or Turning too?) and Sorc or Battle Sorc (more spells of lower level or fewer spells of higher levels, plus HD/BAB etc. and light armour casting for all your armour special ability needs).

I think the general opinion is that Pal 2 BSorc 4 (thus BAB +5) is the best entry. 2d10+4d8 hp! Cha to saves! No loss in spell level of spells cast, just in no. known and spells/day. You'd be a proper gish then...In fact BSorc 7 is a great entry into AbjCh if you're not married to the pal idea - same level spells as a full sorc.

Droodle
2007-06-14, 09:41 AM
I think the general opinion is that Pal 2 BSorc 4 (thus BAB +5) is the best entry. 2d10+4d8 hp! Cha to saves! No loss in spell level of spells cast, just in no. known and spells/day. You'd be a proper gish then...In fact BSorc 7 is a great entry into AbjCh if you're not married to the pal idea - same level spells as a full sorc.Since you're already giving up caster levels by going with the Pally levels, I'd stay away from the battle sorcerer. Since you're probably going to concentrate on buffing and ray spells (a Gish's strong point), your spells per day is going to be more important that your caster level, anyway. Further, your only net gain for going with a battle sorcerer is an average of 6-24 hit points, the ability to cast in light armor, and a point or 2 of BAB. You can get the ability to cast in light armor from the Knight Phantom PRC (which also negates the need to buy a mount or take 5 paladin levels to get one). The build I'd use would probably be Pally 2/Sorc 6/Knight Phantom 10, Abjurant Champion 4. You'll end up with 17th level casting, a BAB of 17, and a whole slew of goodies from the Knight Phantom and Abjurant Champion PRC's.

You'll probably need to get the DM to work with you on re-tooling some of the fluff for this build, though. The Knight Phantom is region specific.

Iku Rex
2007-06-14, 09:49 AM
I made a paladin gish a while back to showcase the wraithstrike spell. It's a 12th level character, but you may still find it interesting as it's basically the character you proposed in the OP.

If you or your DM don't have the stomach to handle the wraithstrike cheese, wings of cover (RacDrag, also cheesy) or heroics (SpComp) make decent substitutes. Other than that the character is made to be solid and fairly boring.

***

Holy Arcane Warrior
Core + Complete used

Human Paladin 4/Sorc 2 /Abjurant Champion (CMag) 5/Spellsword (CWar) 1 (lv12)

(Variant: Fighter4/Focused Specialist (CMag) 2... for a wizard based build. No divine grace from paladin and no Divine Might feat, but more feats and more skill points due to higher Int.)

25 pb


Levels Item Total
Str 14 +4 18 (+4)
Dex 12 +2 14 (+2)
Con 14 +2 16 (+3)
Int 8 8 (-1)
Wis 12 12 (+1)
Cha 13 +3 +2 18 (+4)


Feats (1,1,3,6,9,12): Power Attack, Combat Casting, Improved Toughness (CWar), Somatic Weaponry (CMag 47), Divine Might (CWar), Arcane Strike (CWar)

(Variant: Arcane Preparation [CArc] and Extend Spell for Extended wraithstrikes.)

Weasel Familiar

Spells known:
4th (4/day, 1 known): Heart of Earth (CMag)
3rd (6/day, 2 known): Haste, Heroism
2nd (7/day, 3 known): Wraithstrike (CAdv, SC), Alter Self, See Invisibility
1st (7/day, 5 known): Shield, Enlarge Person, Swift Expeditious Retreat (CAdv), Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement

Equipment (88000 max):
4000 Amulet of Health +2
11350 +1 keen adamantine falchion
6000 Ring of Enduring Arcana (CMag)
4100 Armbands of Might (CAdv)
16000 Belt of Strength +4
4000 Cloak of Charisma +2
10100 +3 Mithral Chain Shirt
5000 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
4000 Gloves of Dexterity +2
9000 Vest of Resistance +3 (CArc)
8000 Ring of Protection +2

6450 left

Combat: Will usually cast heart of stone, heroism and alter self before battle.
Casts haste and shield in first round (swift shield thanks to abjurant champion).

No holds barred option:

AB:
+11 BAB
+4 Strength
+2 heroism spell
+1 haste spell
+1 enhancement weapon
-11 Power Attack
+4 Arcane Strike 4th level spell.
= +12/+12/+7/+2

Damage:
2d4 weapon
+6 Str
+1 enhancement weapon
+22 Power Attack
+2 armbands of might
+4 Divine Might
(+4d4 Arcane Strike)
= 2d4+35+4d4, 15-20/2x

AC:
10 base
+2 Dex
+6 troglodyte
+7 armor
+9 shield spell
+1 haste
+1 ioun stone
+2 ring of protection
= AC 38

Saves (fort/ref/will):
4/1/1 paladin
0/0/3/ sorcerer
1/1/4 abjurant champion
2/0/2 spellsword
4/4/4 divine grace
2/2/2 heroism
3/3/3 vest of resistance
3/2/1 ability scores
0/2/0 familiar
---
Fort +19, Ref +15, Will +20

Average hit points: 10 + 3d10 (Pal) + 2d4 (Sorc) + 5d10 (AC) + d8 (SS) + 12*3 (Con) +12 (ImpTough)= 111 hit points (+22 temporary from heart of earth)

Saph
2007-06-14, 10:08 AM
Okay, so comparing the Pal 4/Sorc 2 and Pal 2/BatSorc 4 builds (which is the point where they qualify for Abjurant Champion:

Pal 4/Sorc 2 gets two 1st-level spells known and four 1st-level spells per day.

Pal 2/BatSorc 4 gets two 1st-level spells known, one 2nd-level spell known, five 1st-level spells per day, and two 2nd-level spells per day.

Both have the same BAB and saves, but the second loses Aura of Courage, Divine Health, and Turn Undead. So I guess the question is whether being able to cast one more spell and one more spell level is worth that. Probably.

I'm not so keen on the Pal 2/Sorc 6 approach because it delays getting into Abjurant Champion by a level, and will mean a fair drop in HP. Knight Phantom sounds interesting, though, which book's it from? We usually play in Forgotten Realms settings.

Okay, so next question: feats. If I play a human (probably will, for the skill points) I'll have 4 by level 6. Combat Casting is a pre-requisite. Do you think Practised Spellcaster's worth it? It'll make my caster level equal to my HD, which'll help for rays and SR. The other options are Power Attack (if I want Wraithstrike cheese, which is probably a bad idea) and Arcane Strike, which I've never seen used, so I'm not sure whether it's worth it or not.

- Saph

Ikkitosen
2007-06-14, 10:31 AM
Wraithstrike - just don't abuse it. It's a great spell on occasions, so take it as your 2nd or 3rd L2 spell.


Both have the same BAB and saves, but the second loses Aura of Courage, Divine Health, and Turn Undead. So I guess the question is whether being able to cast one more spell and one more spell level is worth that. Probably.

BSorc 4 gets you 2 caster levels too! Seriously though, the whole extra level of spells is huge, even if you only get to know 1 or 2. I agree with getting into AbjCh asap too, but take all 5 levels since the last one nets you quickened 3rd level abjurations (like Magic Circle vs. X or Prot Energy).

I wouldn't bother with Knight Phantom or indeed Eldritch Knight until you have no choice but to lose the caster level they'll both cost you at 1st - stick to AbjCh and maybe even a level of spellsword for the +1CL/+1BAB. That takes you to 12th with 10 caster levels.

Arcane Strike is great, much better than the AbCh's similar ability. I'd take it if you're not going to go P4 for divine feats.

Power Attack is a must since you should use a 2h weapon (shield spell, plus you can have a hand "free" for casting without taking the frankly terrible somatic weaponry feat).

Leap Attack is Good. Using it too often with Wraithstrike is Bad.

Smiting Spell is Very Good - be careful not to abuse it. Your extra spell level makes it even better.


...Further, your only net gain for going with a battle sorcerer is an average of 6-24 hit points, the ability to cast in light armor, and a point or 2 of BAB...

The main reason for going BSorc is to get into AbCh earlier thanks to BSorc's medium BAB.

Droodle
2007-06-14, 10:42 AM
Okay, so comparing the Pal 4/Sorc 2 and Pal 2/BatSorc 4 builds (which is the point where they qualify for Abjurant Champion:

Pal 4/Sorc 2 gets two 1st-level spells known and four 1st-level spells per day.

Pal 2/BatSorc 4 gets two 1st-level spells known, one 2nd-level spell known, five 1st-level spells per day, and two 2nd-level spells per day.

Both have the same BAB and saves, but the second loses Aura of Courage, Divine Health, and Turn Undead. So I guess the question is whether being able to cast one more spell and one more spell level is worth that. Probably.

I'm not so keen on the Pal 2/Sorc 6 approach because it delays getting into Abjurant Champion by a level, and will mean a fair drop in HP. Knight Phantom sounds interesting, though, which book's it from? We usually play in Forgotten Realms settings.

Okay, so next question: feats. If I play a human (probably will, for the skill points) I'll have 4 by level 6. Combat Casting is a pre-requisite. Do you think Practised Spellcaster's worth it? It'll make my caster level equal to my HD, which'll help for rays and SR. The other options are Power Attack (if I want Wraithstrike cheese, which is probably a bad idea) and Arcane Strike, which I've never seen used, so I'm not sure whether it's worth it or not.

- SaphYou can find the Knight Phantom Online. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) It's an Eberron PrC and, in my opinion, blends quite nicely with the Paladin Class. If you were to go with the Knight Phantom, I'd reccomend taking it straight to level 10 before you start taking Abjurant Champion levels. It's that good. Whether or not Practiced spellcaster is worth taking kind of depends on how many non-caster levels you actually take. If you are making a combat dominant Abjurant Champion, it isn't worthwhile since your fifth Abjurant Champion level allows you to use your BAB as your caster level. If you are more magic heavy, it really boils down to what kind of spells you are using. A loss of a couple caster levels isn't always going to be a big deal.

Arcane strike is worth it. For a melee Gish, Arcane Strike is better than Power Attack since it really helps out with MAD.

If you want a build with lots of Charisma Synergy, you should really consider going with the Swiftblade. Not only does he get to add his Charisma to his initiative modifier (which also stacks with improved initiative) but he also ends up with what amounts to an undispellable, quickened, 3e haste that also gives him a displacement-like effect for both melee and spell attacks. The swiftblade is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327).

Iku Rex
2007-06-14, 11:12 AM
Arcane Strike is not that great at lower levels - it becomes decent once you're high enough level to have spell slots to spare.

Practiced Spellcaster depends on your spells known. I'd say it's usually worth it, especially of you want to use attack spells.

Power Attack is useful for any melee character, even without wraithstrike. With Pal4 it's a prerequisite for Divine Might.

Somatic Weaponry is worth having if the DM rules that putting your hand back on your weapon after casting a spell requires a move action. It can also be useful to a polymorphed caster if the DM lets natural weapons or unarmed strike count as a "wielded weapon".

Ikkitosen's Leap Attack + wraithstrike suggestion can be useful, especially if you throw in the 1st level paladin spell (SpComp) rhino's rush for double damage. (Buy pearls of power for lots of 1st level paladin spells.)

Draz74
2007-06-14, 12:33 PM
OK, weird change of thought here ... Psionics!

Human Paladin 4 / Wilder 1 / Slayer X.

Go for Track (a Slayer prereq), Power Attack, Divine Might, Improved Critical (Falchion) as some of your first feats.

Buy a Falchion of Collision (+5 damage) when you can. With threat range of 15-20, you will be getting a lot of crits. And these crits will double not only your base damage and Strength damage and Power Attack damage, but also your Smite damage, Divine Might damage, and Collision damage. Against evil foes, you can use Bless Weapon (Paladin 1 spell) to auto-confirm crits. (You can only cast it 1/day, so buy a lot of dirt-cheap Level 1 Pearls of Power.)

Check if you're allowed to use appropiately-sized Astral Constructs as mounts. If you are, get Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct), try to get a good Ride skill and Mounted Combat/Spirited Charge.

Your first and favorite psionic power will be Offensive Precognition, the psionicist's more-balanced version of True Strike, so you can Power Attack more.

Saph
2007-06-14, 02:08 PM
Okay, mostly finished. I'll go for Pal 2/BatSor 4/Abjurant Champion X.

Feats: Combat Casting, Power Attack, Luck of Heroes, and Arcane Strike when I can get it, which means level 9. That leaves one feat spare. Smiting Spell might work, but I'd need to pick a damage spell to use with it, and I can't think of any really good ones. I'd rather not use Leap Attack, since it doesn't really fit the style of the character I'm thinking of.

Spells: At the moment I'm thinking shield, expeditious retreat, mage armour, and alter self, which'll take me up to level 7. Not sure about what spells to take after that. Maybe one of the rays, but I can't decide which one. Resist Energy might be nice, since I could cast it as a quickened spell for free.

Not sure what to take after level 11, since Eldritch Knight loses a caster level and only has a d6 HD. Swiftblade's an option, but it loses even more caster levels and only spending 3rd-level spell slots on haste would be a nuisance.

For weapons I'll probably go with a greatsword.

One last thing; does anybody know of something useful a battle sorcerer could trade their familiar in for? I can't see a gish needing a familiar that much, though I suppose a +2 to a save is always nice.

- Saph

Deel
2007-06-14, 02:19 PM
Metamagic Specialist from PHBII over your familiar, grab Quicken Spell and you can quicken some buffs a few times a day so you don't have to wait if combat comes at you out of nowhere. Either that, or Empower Spell on debuffing like Ray of Enfeeblement can be nice, or Touch of Idiocy.

I'd suggest taking Stalwart Sorcerer from Complete Mage too, if your DM allows multiple alternate class features. It negates Battle Sorcerer making you sometimes wait an extra level to learn new spells because it makes you have to have at least one top level spell, and the HP bonus gives you the average of a d12 hitdie.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-14, 02:23 PM
Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4).

As for Smiting Spell, it's a good choice. Remeber, though: it doesn't have to be a damage-dealer. You can use, say, reduce person instead. Another feat option might be Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm).

Saph
2007-06-14, 02:49 PM
I'd suggest taking Stalwart Sorcerer from Complete Mage too, if your DM allows multiple alternate class features. It negates Battle Sorcerer making you sometimes wait an extra level to learn new spells because it makes you have to have at least one top level spell, and the HP bonus gives you the average of a d12 hitdie.

I just looked this one up, and trying to figure out how this would combine with Battle Sorcerer makes my head hurt. So, you now have two abilities each giving you one less spell known at the top level to a minimum of 1? How many spells are you supposed to know?

Also, if I was going into Abjurant Champion, wouldn't that negate the benefit of the extra HP?

- Saph

Deel
2007-06-14, 03:52 PM
You lose one spell known per level, and two of your highest level possible, to a minimum of 1(which at some levels will be great, like the ones you normally wouldn't have that spell at all, and at others, like when you'd normally have 3 spells known of that level, 2 with battle sorcerer, 1 with stalward, it will be mediocre.) It might not be worth it only up to level 15, but you are still primarily sorcerer, so it will end up giving you a bit, I'd go, for a 15 level build, Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Battle Sorcerer 4, finish out Battle Sorcerer if you go on to 20. It'll end up giving you 16 extra HP, at least, which isn't too bad, though it's really up to you if it's worth the spell slot(and worth the levels where you would normally know 1 spell known of a new level with sorcerer being 0 with battle sorcerer.)

Droodle
2007-06-15, 04:18 AM
Not sure what to take after level 11, since Eldritch Knight loses a caster level and only has a d6 HD. Swiftblade's an option, but it loses even more caster levels and only spending 3rd-level spell slots on haste would be a nuisance.Not really. As a battle sorcerer, you are only going to know one third level spell when you reach level 6 and, chances are, you aren't going to know a lot of (if any) metamagic feats yet. You can't help but use all your third level spell slots for haste since haste will be the only third level spell you actually know.


One last thing; does anybody know of something useful a battle sorcerer could trade their familiar in for?Rapid meta-magic variant. PHB II.

Person_Man
2007-06-15, 01:37 PM
Might I suggest a Cleric 7/Prestige Paladin 3/PrC X. With the right domains, you should be able to cast everything you want, but you'll only lose 1 level of spellcasting. And its strong at every level. You might even want to go Cleric 5/PrC 2/Prestige Paladin 3/PrC X, depending on what you're looking for.

Might I ask what spells you want to be able to cast? There are a ton of PrC and domains out there that might grant you access to them without having to dip into arcane caster levels (thus giving up hit points, BAB, AC, caster levels, etc).

Also, can you get access to the Complete Champion? It has a ton of useful Paladin material.

Saph
2007-06-15, 02:04 PM
Well, I've pretty much decided on the build by now . . . though there are always options, I guess.

I find Clerics terribly boring to play. Too much power, not enough interest, IMO - they can do anything except be fun. I'm not sure if Prestige Paladin would be allowed, and in any case, Cleric 7/Prestige Paladin X would mean that I wouldn't even be one until level 8, by which point the campaign would be half over.

I'd really rather have arcane casting than divine casting. It's just more my style. Besides, I like the Abjurant Champion PrC and wanted to get a chance to use it. As is, this build only loses 1 BAB and 2 caster levels, which seems pretty good to me. The spells I want to cast are all my favourite arcane ones - mage armour, shield, alter self, then one of those nice third level combat buffs which I can never make full use of as a wizard.

I would be interested in the stuff from Complete Champion, though. Is there anything there that'd be helpful for the Pal/BatSorc/Abjurant Champion build?

- Saph

Person_Man
2007-06-15, 03:21 PM
The spells I want to cast are all my favourite arcane ones - mage armour, shield, alter self, then one of those nice third level combat buffs which I can never make full use of as a wizard.

I would be interested in the stuff from Complete Champion, though. Is there anything there that'd be helpful for the Pal/BatSorc/Abjurant Champion build?

- Saph

Wait, I'm confused.

The main purpose of Mage Armor and Shield is to make up for the lack of armor that an arcane caster gets. As a strait Cleric or Paladin (or combination thereof) has full armor, so you don't need those spells.

Alter Self is easily replicated with a variety of magic items. You can also gain access to it with the Transformation domain.

A Paladin/Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion is going to be stuck casting 1st level spells when your friends are casting 3rd level spells, and from then on you'll always be two spell levels behind, and you'll be unable to be an effective tank (mediocre BAB and hit points, lack of a strong combo) until around ECL 11ish, when you get access to 4th level arcane spells (Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, etc). At that point you'll be fine again, albeit for a limited number of times per day.

Perhaps you could just play a Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion, and roleplay being a Paladin. Class does not equal occupation or other fluff. Higher Saves and Immunities can better be accomplished with spells and items then Paladin levels anyway.

I respect you wanting to play a Gish. I respect you want to playing a Paladin. But a Paladin/arcane Gish just doesn't work mechanically, and you're going to suffer a lot at mid levels, and then be permanently outclassed by other casters at high levels.

Also, Complete Champion is chock full of various build options, especially for members of particular religions, like a Paladin. I can't suggest anything in particular without knowing your god, but I highly suggest picking it up.

Saph
2007-06-15, 05:53 PM
A Paladin/Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion is going to be stuck casting 1st level spells when your friends are casting 3rd level spells, and from then on you'll always be two spell levels behind, and you'll be unable to be an effective tank (mediocre BAB and hit points, lack of a strong combo) until around ECL 11ish, when you get access to 4th level arcane spells (Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, etc). At that point you'll be fine again, albeit for a limited number of times per day.

I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers from.

A Pal 2/BatSorc 4/Abjurant Champion X has only 1 less BAB and 4 less HP than a full BAB, d10 HD class of equivalent ECL. And it's one spell level behind equivalent spontaneous casters like Sorcerers, not two. Not as strong as a specialist, sure, but nowhere near as weak as you're making it out to be.


Perhaps you could just play a Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion, and roleplay being a Paladin. Class does not equal occupation or other fluff. Higher Saves and Immunities can better be accomplished with spells and items then Paladin levels anyway.

Better in terms of raw power? I'm sure they can. Better in terms of keeping the character I want to play? Not so much. I already have a character who isn't a Paladin but acts like a Paladin. This time I want a character who acts like a Paladin and actually is one.


I respect you wanting to play a Gish. I respect you want to playing a Paladin. But a Paladin/arcane Gish just doesn't work mechanically, and you're going to suffer a lot at mid levels, and then be permanently outclassed by other casters at high levels.

I don't really think so. I've run the numbers, and by level 8 I'll have a very good AC, very good saves, and respectable HP. My attack power won't be amazing, but I'll have access to mobility effects like Alter Self and debuffs like Ray of Enfeeblement. Can I one-shot monsters of equal CR? No. Do I need to? No.

I think you're falling into the trap that most optimisers end up in sooner or later; assuming that every D&D game is going to be filled with the kind of hyper-powered builds you see on the CharOp boards, and that it's a necessity to have something as strong or stronger. My group's a fairly average one - a few powergamers, a few newbies, and most people somewhere in between. Some people are playing Wizards and Clerics; some are playing Rangers and Monks. I don't need to make an ubercharacter. An ordinary one will do.

If all I wanted to do was make a character who was as powerful as possible in melee and as powerful as possible at casting spells, I wouldn't have bothered asking for advice in the first place - I would have just played a Cleric. But Clerics bore me. Paladins I find fun. Anyway, making an overpowered class effective isn't exactly much of a challenge, is it?

The deity I was planning on taking is Bahamut, BTW. I'll have a look at Complete Champion to see what it's got.

- Saph

Nebo_
2007-06-15, 09:52 PM
Just skimmed the thread and noticed a lot of Paladin4/Sorc2 builds, or Paladin 2/Battle Sorc builds to get right into Abjurant Champion. I prefer Sorc4/Paladin2 then a level of Spellsword to get the BAB for Abjurant Champion. Once you stop taking the actual levels of Battle Sorcerer all you have left is it's stunted spell casting, you're far better off, imo, to use normal sorcerer.

Iku Rex
2007-06-15, 10:42 PM
filler text

Alter Self is easily replicated with a variety of magic items. Like?

Ikkitosen
2007-06-16, 07:05 AM
Just skimmed the thread and noticed a lot of Paladin4/Sorc2 builds, or Paladin 2/Battle Sorc builds to get right into Abjurant Champion. I prefer Sorc4/Paladin2 then a level of Spellsword to get the BAB for Abjurant Champion. Once you stop taking the actual levels of Battle Sorcerer all you have left is it's stunted spell casting, you're far better off, imo, to use normal sorcerer.

This sounds like a Good Idea provided you're comfortable with a 1 level dip in a prc. Costs you some HP, but not too many.

Catch
2007-06-16, 08:22 AM
Try this: Paladin 2/Bard 7/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2

After that, you just keep adding EK levels. The way it works out, you'll have 9th level spellcasting much sooner than you would with sorcerer levels, yet still maintain a high BAB with EK.

Omnipotent_One
2007-06-16, 03:15 PM
Try this: Paladin 2/Bard 7/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2

After that, you just keep adding EK levels. The way it works out, you'll have 9th level spellcasting much sooner than you would with sorcerer levels, yet still maintain a high BAB with EK.

I'd second this build, except that the original poster specified that he wanted the character to be viable from level 4 to level 10. Sublime chord simply doesn't come into play at that level of game.

I'd stick with the paladin/sorcerer idea. Go Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurantchampion5 (in that order)

You'll be 2 BAB behind a fighter and 2 CLs behind a sorcerer.

Droodle
2007-06-17, 05:14 AM
I'd second this build, except that the original poster specified that he wanted the character to be viable from level 4 to level 10. Sublime chord simply doesn't come into play at that level of game.A Paladin/Bard isn't exactly useless, though. In fact, with the right feats, it can be fairly devastating.