Minor Illusion as an instrument

[Millstone85]

For roleplay reasons, my character is a warlock with the outlander background. I also happen to have selected the Minor Illusion cantrip.

A bit surprisingly, the outlander background gives proficiency with one type of musical instrument.

While thinking about interesting ways to incorporate this musical proficiency into the character, it suddenly hit me that my warlock could have the habit to air guitar with actual music! Or, to be less goofy, she could put the melody of a Pan flute into the wind and her own whistling.

Now, by RAW or even by RAI, it doesn't work. Well, the warlock could probably use Minor Illusion to play music. The beating of drums is given as an example, after all. But the proficiency bonus wouldn't be added to a performance check just because the cantrip mimics an instrument the warlock has practice with. The instrument isn't actually here to help with the performance.

But how would you react as a DM if a player came to you with this idea and a pwetty pwease look on their face?

[ji6]

I would allow the use of minor illusion for your instrument to mechanically function the same. Not a big deal, although some who make instruments might not like you for it.

[JoeJ]

I would allow it for a minor illusion of the specific instrument that the character has as a tool proficiency. However, I would also remind the player that they would be very unlikely to ever use it, because entertaining an audience is a Charisma (Performance) check. Having a tool proficiency in a musical instrument just lets you use that instrument instead of singing or acting or whatever else you might do for a performance. You're already proficient with your spells, so you really don't need what you're asking for.

[JoeJ]

What is the math of a musical performance? Is it 1d20 + charisma modifier + proficiency bonus, the latter coming from either the performance skill or an instrument? Can you really have it come from a spell instead?

I would say that the proficiency bonus comes from Performance only. If the character doesn't have proficiency in that skill, then they don't add their proficiency bonus to the roll. Proficiency in the musical instrument doesn't give you to bonus for the actual entertainment, it simply allows you to play that particular instrument. Without it you could still entertain, but you'd have to do it some other way: singing, acting, telling jokes, etc.

In general, skill proficiencies are what allow you to add your proficiency bonus to a roll. Tool proficiencies, in contrast, allow you to do something that you otherwise couldn't.

Edit: I just looked in the PHB, and it looks like you should be able to add your proficiency bonus with a tool proficiency as well as skill (although not both to the same roll).

[Millstone85]

It seems that I first need help understanding the regular case of a character performing with a musical instrument.


Tool proficiencies, in contrast, allow you to do something that you otherwise couldn't.
A tool helps you to do something you couldn't otherwise doAre you sure that tools do not follow the same rules as weapons, where any character can use them and the proficiency is just about the proficiency bonus? For sure, a successful shot from someone who had never used a ranged weapon is a bit more believable than a beautiful melody from someone who had never used a musical instrument, and I can imagine most DMs ruling that you can't play the lute at all if you are not proficient with it. But I am still doubtful about the RAW here.


I just looked in the PHB, and it looks like you should be able to add your proficiency bonus with a tool proficiency as well as skill (although not both to the same roll).
Proficiency with a tool allows you to add your proficiency bonus to any ability check you make using that tool.What are the rolls, then? Is it a single Charisma check that can get the proficiency bonus either from proficiency with the Performance skill or from proficiency with the musical instrument? Is it a Dexterity (Instrument) check next to a Charisma (Performance) check, and if yes how would you have the two checks interact? Both must succeed, either one must succeed, one can give advantage for the other...

[Tanarii]

Charisma (Performance) is a check for how well you can delight the audience with entertainment. That's a check to affect attitude. It also covers a variety of forms of entertainment.

Tool Proficiency (Instrument) checks are to play music with that one instrument. Nothing says that's a Cha check. In fact, most of the time, I rule that's a Dex check, if you're trying to play something relatively complex accurately. For the first time figuring out a complex song, it might be an Int check. For trying to get the soul-searing melody right might be Wis. Reducing someone to tears could be Cha.

If all you want to do is entertain and delight, you don't need musical instrument tool proficiency. If you want to be able to do more than that, you need the tool proficiency.

[Millstone85]

some who make instruments might not like you for it.That could be an amusing conflict.


Tool Proficiency (Instrument) checks are to play music with that one instrument. Nothing says that's a Cha check. In fact, most of the time, I rule that's a Dex check, if you're trying to play something relatively complex accurately. For the first time figuring out a complex song, it might be an Int check. For trying to get the soul-searing melody right might be Wis. Reducing someone to tears could be Cha.That makes sense.

As for my original question, the concept at least doesn't seem to bother anyone here. Good to know.

[GloatingSwine]

The Minor Illusion spell isn't a performance. You'd be able to faithfully reproduce up to one minute of music that you knew per spell use, but wouldn't be able to alter it in progress (it's a single action with no ongoing concentration, so you set it off and the music carries on without further input).

Congratulations, you just invented elevator music. You monster.

[Millstone85]

Congratulations, you just invented elevator music. You monster.I couldn't help but read that in GLaDOS' voice. ^^

Well, you are allowed to "make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends". Does the absence of concentration really means you have to decide the whole sequence in advance?

Even then, you could recast the cantrip every turn. Each new illusion ends the last.

[GloatingSwine]

Well, you are allowed to "make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends". Does the absence of concentration really means you have to decide the whole sequence in advance?


Maybe not, though the spell description only appears to consider a single continuous sound for the duration or discrete sounds as directed.

Music would fall a little between those two stools if you wanted a responsive performance. It's not discrete sounds because the resonance between notes is important, nor is it a single continuous sound if you want to alter it.

You could probably maintain concentration to "conduct" the piece with relatively little effort though (unless you wanted to use it as backing for breakdancing or whatever)

[Tanarii]

Well, you are allowed to "make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends". Does the absence of concentration really means you have to decide the whole sequence in advance?That doesn't mean you're allowed to decide on those sounds at a time other than the casting. It means the sound doesn't have to be (for example) one long horn blast, or a waterfall, or an earthquake, for the duration of the spell.

People taking, or singing, or playing a song, all are discrete sounds. if hit play on a song on your iPad or YouTube, then walk away from the device, it makes discrete sounds at different times before the song ends.

That's still a lot more flexibility than the visual portion of the spell btw, which is a single unmoving object.

[Millstone85]

People taking, or singing, or playing a song, all are discrete sounds. if hit play on a song on your iPad or YouTube, then walk away from the device, it makes discrete sounds at different times before the song ends.If the cantrip can work like a gramophone with a record taken from my character's memory, it is already a very flavorful cantrip indeed. And it will be even better if the DM allows me to use that instrument proficiency to accurately remember musical compositions or imagine new ones.

Anyway, it is not like I want the character to earn money like that. I am just after an interesting quirk. Still, I suppose that I might have to accompany a bard or something at some point.

[Tanarii]

If the cantrip can work like a gramophone with a record taken from my character's memory, how accurately memory is required to be with illusions, and how you mechanically represent that, has already been the debate of one extended thread
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473912-Illusions-getting-arbitrarily-nerfed-by-DMs

Personally I'd probably rule that it required an Int check (with instrument proficiency bonus) to produce a recalled song very accurately if it wasn't performed recently. Or relatively frequently. Or at least, a score read recently. If you were just going for 'anyone who has heard it should be able to recognize this common song, it doesn't have to be perfect' I probably wouldn't bother though.

[Taejang]

As a DM, I'd allow the illusion to get the proficiency bonus from the instrument, with the argument that it works because of the characters familiarity with the songs and song-style of that instrument. However, it is limited to whatever the PC thinks up when casting it. Which is actually a bonus when conducting rock battles (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Dance-fighting), since you can do the illusion on one turn and another action the next, with the music still playing.

Holy crap, it's like a one-minute theme song! Or battle music, since many combats don't last longer than a minute.

[Tanarii]

Holy crap, it's like a one-minute theme song! Or battle music, since many combats don't last longer than a minute."Put on psych-war operations, make it loud.
This is Romeo Foxtrot. Shall we dance ?"

[Taejang]

"Put on psych-war operations, make it loud.
This is Romeo Foxtrot. Shall we dance ?"
Nice. I could also see Mars Bringer of War, or clips from Ultranumb, Fireflight's Unbreakable, or Light Em Up (for my dragonborn wizard). Or Battle of the Fates (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzVBqBosf5w)!

Man. Next time I play anybody with Minor Illusion...

[Hudsonian]

I know that I'm late to the party, but... If I were the DM you asked, as soon as you mentioned it I would be all "Hell Yeah!" I would change the "Proficiency with Instrument" and give you a homebrewed "music of the Mind" proficiency.

-One Instrument at a time
-subject to concentration checks in front of a crowd (You figured this out in the middle of nowhere)
-Requires you to "Whistle" but it comes out as the instrument of your choice. (Maybe just mimicking the noises, but they come out for real. Like the ultimate air guitar)
-You CANNOT actually play any instruments.
-you may have made up weird sounding instruments that no one else has heard before (FREEBIRD!)


This is considered a bonus cantrip and is obviously an illusion to all but the least sober, yet it is still very enjoyable for all who hear it... And aren't instrument craftsmen.