Is there a prestige class or something I could take to combine these two classes?

[Vorgen]

see, I want to do something Ive never done before in a DnD setting. That thing is to completely, utterly ignore equipment. +5 Sword of Win? Please. Robes of Unyielding Sexiness? Pass.

I have found the perfect character with which to do this, a combination Monk-Sorcerer!

See, this guy was growing up and strange things would happen to, near, or about him so he was shunned by his community of dirt-farmers and sent away to the nearest monkery by his authority figures in hopes that they would fix him.

When he got to the monkery they taught him that cherry blossoms were beautiful, that material possessions were intangible and useless to the disciplined mind, and that he should look within himself for true worth through transcendental meditation. They said he should find his center during this meditation and unlock its full potential. He did, and unlocked alot more than his teachers thought he would, a whole second class.

But the last time I tried to play a monk/sorcerer in Icewind Dale II it ... didn't work so well. So how could I combine the two of these for untold amounts of cheese?

Come on powergamers, help me!

[CrazedGoblin]

i can't think of a build that combines monk and sorcerer very well without making it to weak.

[Ceres]

First of all, whatever you do, take the "Vow of Poverty"-feat from book of exalted deeds.

If you insist on combining monk and sorcerer you should take the Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Adventurer.

Also, you would need the Eschew materials feat to use spells that normally have costly material components.

[Charity]

You'd be much better off asking over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30)

[Penguinsushi]

see, I want to do something Ive never done before in a DnD setting. That thing is to completely, utterly ignore equipment. +5 Sword of Win? Please. Robes of Unyielding Sexiness? Pass.

I have found the perfect character with which to do this, a combination Monk-Sorcerer!

See, this guy was growing up and strange things would happen to, near, or about him so he was shunned by his community of dirt-farmers and sent away to the nearest monkery by his authority figures in hopes that they would fix him.

When he got to the monkery they taught him that cherry blossoms were beautiful, that material possessions were intangible and useless to the disciplined mind, and that he should look within himself for true worth through transcendental meditation. They said he should find his center during this meditation and unlock its full potential. He did, and unlocked alot more than his teachers thought he would, a whole second class.

But the last time I tried to play a monk/sorcerer in Icewind Dale II it ... didn't work so well. So how could I combine the two of these for untold amounts of cheese?

Come on powergamers, help me!

"you can say 'nunnery' - why can't you say 'monkery'?" :smallwink:

Well, i tend to dislike power gaming, so I'm probably not going to be much help here. I don't think the monk/sorceror multiclass is any weaker than other multiclass combinations (imo - multiclassing always weakens the character. The price you pay for flexibility). You might look at the Enlightened Fist in Complete Arcane though - it's pretty much the only monk/sor PrC I've seen.

Ascetic characters are fun to play - because it's fun not to need anything. However, since loot is one of the big rewards in the game, it can also be a less exciting character to play unless the story truly takes advantage of that strength.

on a side note - this thead probably needs moved to the 'gaming' forum...

~PS

[Korith]

IMO, the whole "Prestige Class" thing is optional with this build.

Take 1-3 levels of sorcerer, then start your monk training.

Sorcerer spells to look in to:
-Expeditious Retreat
-Jump
-Mage Armor
-Magic Weapon
-Shield
-True Strike


Then, just add in the Practiced Spellcaster found in both Complete Arcane and Complete Divine. This boosts your sorcerer level for casting (but not spells known) by up to 4, giving you better durations on your powers. (Who can say "no" to 7 hours of mage armor that doesn't interfere with your monkness, anyway?)

[Exalted_Hater]

i had an enlightened fist once... i made the dm cry.

I was running around these boards (http://www.wizards.com/) about a weak ago and i saw something called The King of Smack. but i cant find the link today(looked for about 2 hours)

the king will probably break the campaign :roach: i'm just mentioning it in hopes that you will be inspired.

and Eschew Materials only removes the components that cost less than 1gp

[Ceres]

^^ The king of smack can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=227556). Hasn't got anything to do with sorcerers, though.

[squidthingy]

try the tatooed monk prestege class from the complete warrior

[Mr Croup]

Shouldn't this be in the Gaming (d20 and General RPG) section?

[ravenkith]

Do not combine Spell casters with VOP.

It makes for unhappy high level spellcasters.

[LordoftheFools]

The Enlightened Fist.
Page 34, Complete Arcane

[Greenfaun]

Just wanted to pop in and let you know: Your DM may not allow it, but the best class I know of to fit your concept is the Oathsworn, from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. The class revolves completely around not using items at all. It's basically a 3.0 monk with some new abilities to dial up the "why won't it DIE" factor to 11. They cannot use weapons or armor, ever. They don't use tools or horses or vehicles, either, if they can help it. They eventually gain class abilities that let them go without food, water, sleep, and even air. They're not as good against casters, though.

I've never played one, but they seem like more of a gimmick class than a real threat in combat. Definitely good at not dying, though.

Just thought you should know it's out there.

[Indon]

Do not combine Spell casters with VOP.

It makes for unhappy high level spellcasters.

So you can't use Forcecage. Meh.

A Sorceror is already at the point where they aren't going to be casting every spell under the sun, and taking a precious Spell Known on a spell with a costly component isn't neccessarily a good idea anyway.

Plus, if you don't want to be reliant on items, you might as well get +8 to a stat for it.

Aside from feats previously mentioned, here's another feat you should grab: Improved Unarmed Strike; it increases you effective level for monk unarmed damage - From the Tome of Battle if I recall.

I would recommend getting at least to the point where you can cast 3'rd level spells as a Sorceror. You get some real staples from there, like Fly, Dispel Magic, and the ever-popular Fireball.

[Skjaldbakka]

Just wanted to pop in and let you know: Your DM may not allow it, but the best class I know of to fit your concept is the Oathsworn, from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. The class revolves completely around not using items at all. It's basically a 3.0 monk with some new abilities to dial up the "why won't it DIE" factor to 11. They cannot use weapons or armor, ever. They don't use tools or horses or vehicles, either, if they can help it. They eventually gain class abilities that let them go without food, water, sleep, and even air. They're not as good against casters, though.

I've never played one, but they seem like more of a gimmick class than a real threat in combat. Definitely good at not dying, though.

Just thought you should know it's out there.

Oathsworn is a really cool idea in theory, but is an extremely underpowered class. I mean seriously. People talk about how monk is underpowered, but an oathsworn is like a monk, except with less of the stuff that makes monk worth doing. They don't even get to add their wisdom bonus to AC (but they still can't wear armor). I really like AE in general, but the oathsworn is one of those things that just wasn't done well.

They also have a high mortality rate. Something about having bad AC, d8 HD, and not being effective damage dealers (although they can get through DR).

Pretty much, the oathsworn can do a lot of thematically cool things, which aren't particularly helpful in most situations (how often does having to breath actually come up in a game?)

PS- however, the characters the oathsworn are based off of, the bloodguard, are awesome. don't remember the book that's from though.

EDIT- to address the OP, are you sold on sorceror as you spellcasting class? And are you going for A)sorc., splashing monk, B) monk, splashing sorceror, or C)monk/sorceror gish?

[Vorgen]

EDIT- to address the OP, are you sold on sorceror as you spellcasting class? And are you going for A)sorc., splashing monk, B) monk, splashing sorceror, or C)monk/sorceror gish?

I don't know what that question means.

[SpiderBrigade]

It means what's the class ratio of your concept. Mostly monk? Mostly sorceror? 50-50?

[DreadArchon]

...So it's your goal in life to play a Monk who now also relies heavily on Charisma?!?

:eek:

Mix with a divine caster (or a Magic of Incarnum meldshaper). Not a Sorcerer.

[Penguinsushi]

...So it's your goal in life to play a Monk who now also relies heavily on Charisma?!?

:eek:

Mix with a divine caster (or a Magic of Incarnum meldshaper). Not a Sorcerer.

While I'll admit that monk/clr might seem like a more natural combination - especially if Vorgen's looking for a munchkiny character - I think the monk/sor concept is perfectly valid, if less min/maxed.

Also, if the sorceror specializes in personal spells (mage armor, shield, bull's str, etc), having the high dc for a high charisma is pretty unimportant. All you're missing then for a having a low(er) charisma is a bonus spell here or there.

~PS

[AtomicKitKat]

Wasn't there an Arcane equivalent to the "Sacred Fist" PrC?

[Toliudar]

Is there any point to the discussion of whether this is or is not a powerful/useful combo? This is what Vorgen wants, this is what Vorgen is going to do.

Vow of Poverty will help with this combo. It will also require Lawful Good, with a heavy emphasis on the good, so be ready for that.

Alternately, I have another suggestion that may make this more workable for you. Gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm). Get your DM to try out a gestalt campaign. Your character will still have a lot of abilities to try to split their focus amongst, but at least their saves will be good, their hit points will be decent, and they'll have full spellcasting.




And I echo the coolness of Bloodguards, and also can't remember what book they were in. Can someone help? It's driving me crazy, and all I get on internet searches is World of Warcraft stuff.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

...So it's your goal in life to play a Monk who now also relies heavily on Charisma?!?

:eek:

Mix with a divine caster (or a Magic of Incarnum meldshaper). Not a Sorcerer.

You can take a feat to switch from Wis-->AC to Cha-->AC. Ascetic Spellcaster, I think is it. Complete Adventurer.

[Penguinsushi]

You can take a feat to switch from Wis-->AC to Cha-->AC. Ascetic Spellcaster, I think is it. Complete Adventurer.

Ah, yes. Forgot about that one. Very good feat choice.

~PS

[AtomicKitKat]

Found it. Enlightened Fist(Complete Arcane). Let's you stuff stunning fists to channel touch spells through your attacks. Combined with Arcane Strike to burn people up in a single magical punch.

[Theodoxus]

The Bloodguard, which is instantly what I thought of when I read about the Oathsworn described here, are from the exquisite trilogies of Thomas Covenant, unbeliever, by Stephen R Donaldson.

I whole-heartedly recommend them to everyone who enjoys their fantasy settings with a touch of 'wtf'.

The first book is Lord Foul's Bane.

Those books were the reason I have a white gold wedding band... /sigh, such the sentimentalist.

:)

[Vorgen]

The Enlightened fist is exactly what I had in mind. I was thinking of using protections and touch spells from the sorcerer to augment the hand to hand fighting of the monk, because you know touch spells are used so rarely by magic users because they prefer to stand back and AoE everything from afar. I was looking for something more like an in-your-face spellcasting class.

Also no equipment.

Or maybe a Sacred Fist. That sounds like it could be cool.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Also no equipment.

Or maybe a Sacred Fist. That sounds like it could be cool.

If you do that, have your holy symbol be a tattoo(s). I did that once for a Sacred Fist. It was awesome. :smallsmile: (I think I made the tattoo look like Scar's from Full Metal Alchemist, including the glowing when used part, but that was a while ago.)

[The Mormegil]

Make it a Sor 4/Monk1 and then go for Enlightened Fist. Take Improved Unarmed Strike and Ascetic Spellcaster and Arcane Strike. Use those spell slots to get your fists to hit even with volley (I.E. Combine Complete Mage "feat-that-make-you-use-Quickened-Spells"[sorry, I don't pretty much remember what it's called, but it basically avoid getting a full-round action to use metamagic feats] and a Quickened True Strike + Sure Strike + Greater Magic Weapon + Arcane Strike + anything else). Now, rely principally on Cha and Dex; if you want more damage, make it elf and take a level of Corellon's Champion. Take the Sun School Tactical feat (CW). If you have feats left (probably not, especially if you make it elf) get Rapid Stunning (CW)

You now do THIS:
Dimension Door at opponent's back. Possibly at opponent wizard's back.
Use your feats and spells to get an excellent attack bonus. Sacrifice a Stunning attempt to channel Disintegrate (Enlghtened Fist, anyone?) in his back and another to stun it. Two Fortitude saves on a wizard. Oooooook!
Now just either be charged and use Vampiric Touch to heal yourself or use a Quickened Dimension Door (that is of course if you didn't already use a Quickened spell already) to teleport away from the wizard's dusty rests...

[Hypothetical]

see, I want to do something Ive never done before in a DnD setting. That thing is to completely, utterly ignore equipment. +5 Sword of Win? Please. Robes of Unyielding Sexiness? Pass.

I have found the perfect character with which to do this, a combination Monk-Sorcerer!

See, this guy was growing up and strange things would happen to, near, or about him so he was shunned by his community of dirt-farmers and sent away to the nearest monkery by his authority figures in hopes that they would fix him.

When he got to the monkery they taught him that cherry blossoms were beautiful, that material possessions were intangible and useless to the disciplined mind, and that he should look within himself for true worth through transcendental meditation. They said he should find his center during this meditation and unlock its full potential. He did, and unlocked alot more than his teachers thought he would, a whole second class.

But the last time I tried to play a monk/sorcerer in Icewind Dale II it ... didn't work so well. So how could I combine the two of these for untold amounts of cheese?

Come on powergamers, help me!

Well, you run into one major problem....

If you start as a monk, and then dual class, you can NEVER again gain levels in MONK. ( This may have been changed in post 3.0, but 3.0 is what I play, and I've never looked at 3.5.)

Therefore you would have to raise your Monk to whatever level you deem needed ( for me it's at least level 14) before you "Discovered" your Sorcerors bent....

[PinkysBrain]

Meh, enlightened fist increases a lot of monk abilities ... 1 or 2 monk levels is enough.

[AtomicKitKat]

Hoo boy. *points to Enlightened Fist entry in Complete Arcane*

A Monk who takes levels in Enlightened Fist can return to the Monk class without penalty. He may also freely multiclass with the class that allowed him entry to the Enlightened Fist without stopping his progression in the Monk class.

[squidthingy]

Aside from feats previously mentioned, here's another feat you should grab: Improved Unarmed Strike; it increases you effective level for monk

It's from the player's handbook and what it does is make it so when you fight unarmed it counts as if you have a weapon so your enimies can't attack of opprotunity the crap out of you

[squidthingy]

Well, you run into one major problem....

If you start as a monk, and then dual class, you can NEVER again gain levels in MONK. ( This may have been changed in post 3.0, but 3.0 is what I play, and I've never looked at 3.5.)

Therefore you would have to raise your Monk to whatever level you deem needed ( for me it's at least level 14) before you "Discovered" your Sorcerors bent....

Or he could start as a sorcerer and in his backstory explain that he was sent to monkery because of practicing sorcery

[TreesOfDeath]

One of those dragon issues had a class iwth monk abilties and spell progression. I think it was master of the <something> wind. NOrth, south, east, west, can't remeber which oine.
Since dragon is gone, maybe someone can post it?

[Pestlepup]

Ooh! Sorcerous monks galore! I wholeheartedly agree with all proposed Vows of Poverty, and Enlightened Fist does come up as a logical choice. Now, this is only my personal preference, but spell choices (aside from all those channeled bombs) would include my all-time favourites such as Caltrops, Blood Wind, even Critical Strike or Swift variations of Invisibility, Flight, and Expeditious Retreat. Small-scale teleportation could be a nice touch, and if you've got the skills and feats (or spells) to back it up, playing with darkness and displacement always gets a smile or two.

I'd say go for it, but with my enthusiasm for all concepts obscure, it's no wonder. :smallsmile:

(Most spells from Spell Compendium are fun to consider, aside from those already mentioned.)

[Swooper]

...Use those spell slots to get your fists to hit even with volley (I.E. Combine Complete Mage "feat-that-make-you-use-Quickened-Spells"[sorry, I don't pretty much remember what it's called, but it basically avoid getting a full-round action to use metamagic feats] ...
Or just take the Metamagic Specialist alternate class ability from PH2, sacrificing a familiar but saving a feat, which sounds like a precious resource for this character.

[Penguinsushi]

Hoo boy. *points to Enlightened Fist entry in Complete Arcane*

[quote about how it lets you multiclass with the monk and an arcane spellcasting class]

Yeah. The Ascetic Mage feat in CA also lets you do that.

And one of the other posters touched on using a backstory to justify it. If it's well-thought-out, I almost always let my players do things like that (but that really depends on your GM).

~PS

[Indon]

It's from the player's handbook and what it does is make it so when you fight unarmed it counts as if you have a weapon so your enimies can't attack of opprotunity the crap out of you

Oh, yes.

Superior Unarmed Strike is the feat I was thinking of.

And Theodoxus; two trilogies and an additional quadrilogy in-progress. Book 7 is "Runes of the Earth".

However-

The main character is Linden, who I know not everyone likes as much as Covenant. It's also generally, how do I put it... 'higher power' than the previous books.

[Gungnir]

The Ascetic Mage feat allows for normal multiclassing between monk and whatever caster type he applies it to.

[Stephen_E]

The cute part of Enlightened Fist is that at 3rd lev you get to burn a stunning fist use to cast a touch attack spell as part of a full attack action, i.e. you're effectively getting to cast a touch spell as a free quickened spell.

If you do this with Chill Touch, you'll then be adding chill touch to your next "x" unarmed attacks that hit (where "x" = your caster level). This also makes you extremely effective against undead. - Chill touch does 1d6 + fort save or 1 Str damage vs living, or will save or flee for undead.

The bad news for enlightened fist is that the 5th lev ability sucks. You can burn a spell to heal damage to you equal to the spell lev. Gee.... want to burn that 5th lev spell to heal 5 pts of damage, as a standard action!
Sometime you've really got to wonder what the designer was thinking.

Stephen

[Human Paragon 3]

Wow, really? So you could slap a Touch of Idiocy onto a flurry of blows and deal 4d6 Int Cha and Wis drain? Yeowch!

[Penguinsushi]

The bad news for enlightened fist is that the 5th lev ability sucks. You can burn a spell to heal damage to you equal to the spell lev. Gee.... want to burn that 5th lev spell to heal 5 pts of damage, as a standard action!
Sometime you've really got to wonder what the designer was thinking.

Yeah. That's messed up. I'm really surprised there's nothing in the Complete Arcane errata about that. I'm asking on wizards' d&d board as I type here...

~PS

[lord_khaine]

yeah or something like a sudden empowered vampyric touch, damage your opponent while healing yourself.

heh VoP Monk/sorc/enligtend fist actualy sounds like something i want to try and make as well :)

[CASTLEMIKE]

This isn't an optimized build suggestion for your concept but consider taking the "Spellcaster" variant for Wisdom as a primary casting ability from UA and the Hypertext D20 SRD for build attribute synergism instead of sorcerer (Basically a sorcerer fix after introducing the Favored Soul). This way you don't have to burn a feat for Ascetic Mage and pick up a few extra feats.

Known spells from all spellcasting lists plus the choice of 2 known skills and getting to assign your best save plus the Anyspell (3rd) and Anyspell Greater (6th) for more spellcasting options with access to a spell book and 15 minutes.

Spellcaster also gets you bonus feats at level 1 (You can choose to get a familiar if you like), 5, 10 and 15 if not PRCing that side unlike sorcerer where you lose nothing for PRCing.

Those feats could be used for something like Magic in the Blood which would increase the following: (Fey or Fiendish Presence and Fey or Fiendish Legacy feats) Threefold. Consider taking a Reserve Feat if leveling up in a game from first level or other feats like Improved Initiative or Leadership.

Consider taking the Vow of Poverty which will pump up your ability scores and lots of other bennies and feats.

Take a level of Rogue on the Monk at level 1 for skill points and sneak attack +1D6.

Take a level of Ninja for Sudden Strike +1D6

Take the Ascetic Rogue Feat that lets you combine sneak attack damage and sudden strike damage with your monk attack.

Take 3 levels of Monk for Evasion and Still Mind to qualify for Fist of Zoukeen

Take 10 Levels of Fist of Zouken for Monk abilities and psionic abilities after your BAB is +4 and your concentration is 9+

Taking the level 4 Dweomer of Transference would probably be a good strategy.

Take a combination of Rogue and Ninja or Swordsage from the Tome of Battle for the remaining 5 levels of the build on your Monk side. (You could take more for swapping out Fist of Zouken PRC levels for something else increasing CL like the Arcane Variant Monks from Dragon or the Abjurant Champion PRC)

You have a lot of options for the using the other 5 Levels of Abjurant Champion on the Spellcaster side as one of the easiest PRCs or one of the Arcane Monks from Dragon. A level of Spellsinger would get you a lot more spellcasting, some Arch Mage levels or 1 - 4 levels of Guild Mage for the Spellpool or Loremaster - 2.

[Penguinsushi]

Yeah. That's messed up. I'm really surprised there's nothing in the Complete Arcane errata about that. I'm asking on wizards' d&d board as I type here...

~PS

Well, my question dropped to page two. The only answer I got as to the reasoning was essentially that "arcane casters usually can't heal".

Pfft.

~PS

[SalientGreen]

How about adding Lesser Ironguard (I think it's called - from Forgotten Realms Sourcebook) to allow your fists to ignore armor?

[Stephen_E]

Wow, really? So you could slap a Touch of Idiocy onto a flurry of blows and deal 4d6 Int Cha and Wis drain? Yeowch!

Unfortunately, no. Touch of Idiocy specifically is a one shot effect that lasts 10min/lev. So you flurry, and the next hit you do does 1d6 to Int, Wis & Char as well as your normal unarmed damage (or 1d6 x1.5 if you empowered it).

Interestingly enough as far as I can see it allows spontaneous "quickened" metamagic of touch spells, and at 7th lev, ray spells (although they have yo be converted to touch spells). Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement anyone, followed by Chill Touch. (1d6+5) x1.5 Str penalty (no save) followed by CL number of hits doing 1 pt Str damage if they fail a Fort save, and that can reduce their lowered Str to 0.

Great way of taking out other mages Use the Monk speed and tumble ability to get past the mooks, and then Ray of Enfeeblement followed by Chill Touch. Walla, one paralysed Mage.

Stephen

[AtomicKitKat]

The Ascetic Mage feat allows for normal multiclassing between monk and whatever caster type he applies it to.

Actually, it specifically says "Sorceror and Monk", whereas the Enlightened Fist applies to all Arcane casting classes and Monk(if for some reason you think having more than 1 casting class will make you more powerful. :P)

[toddex]

Ascetic mage lets you use cha for wisdom for your bonus AC, and lets your sorc levels stack for determining fist damage.

--- Someone got it before me :(

[LordLocke]

I'd still suggest against Vow of Poverty. You'll never be able to take a spell with a component costing more then 1 GP, and unless you only want to go so far in Monk, you'll have to settle with whatever Sorcerer you take before going into the Monk class- which means unless you're not starting Monk until level 10 or so, your spell list will be way to limited to keep the Monk going without magic items.

Assuming Gestalt isn't an option, I'm going to have to either suggest a Monk/Sorc combo where the Monk part is already finished and using Ascetic Mage to keep building unarmed strike and what-not- if that's unacceptable as a normal Sorcerer, check out the Battle Sorc in Unearthed Arcana. Otherwise, the only way you're going to grow Monk and Sorc at the same time is Enlightened Fist, which is fairly crummy on paper as PrC's go, but it's basically everything you're looking for from a fluff standpoint, and Monks probably gain more then most other Melee classes with the ability to spellcast (Mostly, the ability to actually be an effective force in combat, instead of just that annoying guy that doesn't die who runs around delivering healing potions to justify their 'awesome' mobility.)

[AtomicKitKat]

The main benefit of Ascetic Mage over Enlightened Fist(and makes it better being used in conjunction with it).

Ascetic Mage: Sorceror/Monk levels stack for Monk AC bonus based on combination of. Lets you use your Charisma instead of(not in addition to, I think) Wisdom(only for AC though. It's not like you'd get Quivering Palm anyway), reducing MAD. Lets you sac spells for what essentially amounts to Weapon Focus/Specialisation bonuses(+1/+1 per level sacced) on your fists.

Enlightened Fist: Levels in EF stack with your Monk levels for Unarmed Strike, Speed Bonus(Unarmoured obviously), Fist damage and some other things. 8/10 Spellcasting(so you wind up roughly 1.5 Spell Levels behind a pure Wizard all the time) Lets you sac Stunning Fist for more magical abilities.

Combined: All your levels stack with Monk for at least a few different things. You can sac 2 spells(3 if you get Arcane Strike), to deliver Touch Spells with almost guaranteed Hit/Damage.