Defense of the binder

[Lans]

The Binder is the best class in Tome of Magic... which might literally be the most meaningless complement it is possible to give a class.

Tome of Magic was clearly a way to test different mechanics to see what people liked, but because it was made by WotC, they did a terrible job by making them all so weak that no one would play them for good mechanics at all, and instead they only play them fluff or the desperate need to optimize a bad character.

I think they wanted to balance things with the fighter and swashbuckler.





1) All of the Binder's abilities are too weak to do anything level appropriate, because you can't have nice things. I mean, look at the only non-Summon monster trick put forth in this thread, it basically amounts to casting Ghoul Touch, but worse, once every five rounds, and it's literally impossible for anyone less than Binder level 7, A good way to think about it is most of the vestiges replicate a weak class, but very, very badly.

The 2 vestiges that are supposed to replicate the rogue and ninja are one of the better ones, and could be combined to pull a flask rogue. On there own Adromalius can give you 2d6 sneak attack at 3rd, and malphus can give you a d6 of sudden strike at 1st. Progression wise at the end you would get 5d6 sneak attack and 6d6 sudden strike. Adding in things like locate item and invisibility from the vestiges, and the binders bonus to hit, I think it could compete with the rogue.

I believe sudden strike works for pulling a flask rogue. If i'm wrong then this wouldn't work.

1st level Leraje is does okay damage, by okay I mean can drop 2 CR 1/2s.

Full plate at the start of the adventure isn't the worse.

The other thing that binders can do is pouncing, but that comes online pretty late

Standing next to an enemy to give it -4 to saves for somebody else?


2) Then on top of that, they give you basically no prepared slots. Like, that "Fire" Ability I described earlier would be mega weak if it was the only thing a Sorcererlike class could prepare for seven levels, and yet, it's actually more powerful than most of the vestiges! But if you were making a "Sorcerer" who used this mechanic, you would probably give them at least two slots at level 1 to prepare two different thematic abilities, and then scale up from there to like 5 at level 10. The Binder never even sees five at all. He gets his second at level 8 and his third after the campaign is over at level 14.

They definitely need at least another vestige, no later than 3rd. Its a big problem with customizable classes like this is that they need to be customizable. I am thinking a vestige of each level wouldn't be broken.

[DeAnno]

I feel like Paimon's Dance of Death could maybe be used to do something kind of ok, maybe with Tripping. Also, just glancing through, Balam the Bitter Angel is kind of impressive passively, though I suppose that doesn't amount to much unless you're actually doing something useful with the rest of your character. An 8 level dip for spammy rerolls and one other cool thing is the kind of meh package you get out of Binders, I suppose.

[Beheld]

First off, you led this thread off by calling it "Defense of the Binder" and then said it's a terrible class balanced to fighters...

I mean, sure, I guess. But that's not much of a defense.


The 2 vestiges that are supposed to replicate the rogue and ninja are one of the better ones, and could be combined to pull a flask rogue. On there own Adromalius can give you 2d6 sneak attack at 3rd, and malphus can give you a d6 of sudden strike at 1st. Progression wise at the end you would get 5d6 sneak attack and 6d6 sudden strike. Adding in things like locate item and invisibility from the vestiges, and the binders bonus to hit, I think it could compete with the rogue.

I believe sudden strike works for pulling a flask rogue. If i'm wrong then this wouldn't work.

Well it's certainly better than the binder that tries to cast Ghoul Touch once a fight, I'll give you that. But let's first recognize that no one ever cares what you can do at level 20, and let's look at what you actually get at various breakpoints:

1: You spent a feat on improved binding instead of Rapid Shot or TWFing, but you get a scout Bird and you start every fight invisible. +1d6 Sudden Strike. The rogue probably has an extra attack, might be able to flank, and might be able to do +2d6 SA (those last two are pretty much mutually contradictory, although maybe you can flank and use range attacks?). It's not exactly a win by the Binder, but if I was a the rogue, I wouldn't be **** talking the binder, that's for sure.
3: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, but with Hold person new save each round mechanics, locate item at will, see invisible, +2d6 SA. The Rogue has one more feat than you spent on extra attacks, but he may have the same actual number of attacks, could have +3d6 SA, could have only 2d6 SA. In either case I think the added utility of the binder keeps you even here, if not ahead (of the 2d6 SA rogue with no extra attack that you don't have).
7: You are exactly like the level 3 Binder in every way. Man **** this, Give binders a second vestige at level 4. Rogue doing +4d6 or +5d6 or +5d6+7 SA.
8: TWO VESTIGES! Now you get a huge boost because you bind both of then and get all the utility of both, and also +3d6 Sudden Strike and +3d6 SA, so at this level you suddenly jump to more flask damage than the Rogue (assuming you have TWFing and Rapid Shot). Although, then again, maybe not since maybe you don't qualify for Craven (can't remember if it strips you of fear immunity or if you literally just can't have it if you are immune to fear), or maybe you haven't had time to take Craven yet.
10: Now you do +4d6 Sudden Strike and +3d6 SA as compared to Rogues 5d6 or 6d6 or +10 that you might also have. But the Rogue does 2 str damage on attacks too which helps against fortification and elementals, two types you can't get a cheap wand to beat (although deathstrike bracers do). Again, neither of those characters is objectively worse, at least not without getting into specifics about whether they took halfling sub level, or whether you can qualify for Craven.
13: +4d6 of each, as compared to Rogues +7d6/+8d6+Craven+Str damage. Still within the realm of comparison.
14: +5d6 SS and also you get a whole nother vestige. Too bad 3.5 nerfed to crap poor little darkness, or else Tenebrous would be mandatory here.

And you get all this with a bigger HD, a bonus to slap somewhere, some immunities that aren't terrible, and better saves, because fort and will are more important and more numerous than ref. Unfortunately you have no UMD, and few skills, which probably cuts into your ability to SA a fair chunk. Also no Str damage.

All in all, it looks like the Binder can, if he basically just copies a Rogue build, do slightly less damage, to fewer targets at most if not all levels, but have more utility aside from Rogues UMD and Trapfinding (which are highly variable in their usefulness from person to campaign and could range from drastically outdoing the binder to being mostly not a thing). In addition, compared to the Rogue damage, you are probably weakest from levels 3-7, and that makes up probably 60% of all campaigns that last more than a level.

So yeah, a Binder can be a guy who uses that one internet vestige that is poorly written, a Flask Avenger, or a guy who keeps casting Ghoul Touch long after it goes out of style.

So basically, one whole build that isn't terrible and that doesn't use the online vestige. More than I thought he had before.

[Segev]

On the other hand Binder is a spectacular dipping class for a number of different builds.

[daremetoidareyo]

On the other hand Binder is a spectacular dipping class for a number of different builds.

Fluff wise, it totally makes sense to dip also. You want quick power, so you delve into the dark arts just enough to get that power instead of diving all the way into the dark arts to make that your whole schtick.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ignoring the two broken online vestiges, Green Lady and Zycerll, Binder is still far better than a fighter. It's no caster, but it's about as good as any noncaster can be. The two main problems with Binder is that 1) the vestiges seem to be ranked by their background fluff more than their actual powers (which is why Zagan is so high yet worse than many low level vestiges, for example) and 2) their power comes in spurts rather than a smooth progression. Sure, casters get a quadratic increase every two levels, but at least that forms a smooth curve. A Binder's power is largely stagnant until they hit a level where they get to bind a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th simultaneous vestige, and at those distinct points their power at least multiplies if not outright explodes from a synergistic combo.
And I guess the 3rd problem would be those online vestiges, but they're pretty easy to ignore.

They do get plenty of good tricks that other noncasters just plain don't, though. They can have at high levels Imprisonment at will, every 5 rounds. They can go ethereal at will. They can give themselves various immunities aside from the ones the class itself gives (most notably, Mind Blank!). I can't even fathom thinking Fighter or Swashbuckler is on the same level as a Binder. Maybe levels 1-7...maybe. But still not really.

[Beheld]

I can't even fathom thinking Fighter or Swashbuckler is on the same level as a Binder. Maybe levels 1-7...maybe. But still not really.

I think the point was that the Binder was supposed to be balanced with the Fighter (Hence why they suck so much, get so few abilities, and spend 80% of the time people actually play D&D with only one vestige.) Not that they specifically are as strong as fighters. That WotC failed at their balance attempt should surprise no one.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think the point was that the Binder was supposed to be balanced with the Fighter (Hence why they suck so much, get so few abilities, and spend 80% of the time people actually play D&D with only one vestige.) Not that they specifically are as strong as fighters. That WotC failed at their balance attempt should surprise no one.

I don't think that's true, though. Binder is a class that appeals to supernatural/otherworldly beings for a taste of their power and changes daily or (with feats) on the fly what specialties it can handle. Seems obvious to me they would be aiming for a balance level around classes like Warlock, Factotum, etc... And they pretty much got it.

[Florian]

I don't think that's true, though. Binder is a class that appeals to supernatural/otherworldly beings for a taste of their power and changes daily or (with feats) on the fly what specialties it can handle. Seems obvious to me they would be aiming for a balance level around classes like Warlock, Factotum, etc... And they pretty much got it.

We won´t ever know what they thought. Going by what happened to Ari Marmell, the guy who did the shadow magic section, his proposal seems to have found its way straight into the book w/o any real editing or proof reading. He later noticed himself that he forgot some chunks with the stuff there, like adding rules for bonus shadow-spell based on high intelligence...

So, no clue what the Binder was supposed to be or whether its a finished thing or not.

[Segev]

Binder is, ultimately, playable. The same cannot really be said for the other two classes. Truenamer can be optimized into playability, but it takes work. Shadowcaster...why play this instead of the simpler to build, easier to understand, and more powerful Sorcerer? The "system" in Shadowcaster isn't even appreciably distinct from "spontaneous caster."

[Lans]

First off, you led this thread off by calling it "Defense of the Binder" and then said it's a terrible class balanced to fighters...

I mean, sure, I guess. But that's not much of a defense.

I figure it gets a D instead of an F, and if other people wanted to prove other wise they would have a thread for it.






So yea
h, a Binder can be a guy who uses that one internet vestige that is poorly written, a Flask Avenger, or a guy who keeps casting Ghoul Touch long after it goes out of style.

So basically, one whole build that isn't terrible and that doesn't use the online vestige. More than I thought he had before. I want to argue there's more, but I can't find it. A couple low level ones could be argued to be okay at level 1 but thats not much.

[A Tad Insane]

Snip
To add to this, a totally-not-a-rogue binder still can bind other vestiges. If a horde of skeletons is coming towards mcguffinville, the rogue almost shouldn't bother coming to the session, but the binder could bind Amon and still be somewhat useful.

[Talionis]

Binders are a strange lot. There is a guide somewhere that suggests which vestige you should bind at each level. While I agree that many of the Vestiges seem to be set at very arbitrary levels, they are actually very fun to play. Activating abilities every fifth turn is fun, it keeps you from spamming the same thing over and over again. This is of course a complaint at low levels since you have so few abilities to activate that it can leave you feeling like you have no good thing to do on some turns and just attack. The biggest problem as i see it is that you should be able to bind your second vestige earlier than level 8.

But I dont' think they feel under powered in a Tier 3 campaign. I think they tend to be fun and a challenge to play. It can help if you have some scry in the group so that you have an idea how to set your vestiges up at the beginning of the day.

[Troacctid]

The Binder was designed to be balanced to the Warlock. I'm pretty sure they said so in a sidebar somewhere about vestige design.

[Beheld]

To add to this, a totally-not-a-rogue binder still can bind other vestiges. If a horde of skeletons is coming towards mcguffinville, the rogue almost shouldn't bother coming to the session, but the binder could bind Amon and still be somewhat useful.

If a horde of skeletons is coming, the Rogue is thrilled that he gets to fight skeletons and not elementals, and just walks in with his grave strike wand. On the other hand, the totally not a Rogue Binder should absolutely keep preparing the same vestiges and break out his own wand of Grave Strike, because that will be much better than wasting his time binding Amon. Unless you are talking about level 1, in which case I suggest that while it really doesn't matter what he binds, the rogue throws two flasks a round, and that does as much damage as a breath weapon that can hit 2 targets, which, for something as small as a 30ft line, is probably the most you were going to to get anyway.

In theory it is fine for people to claim that Binders could bind other vestiges, but the sheer fact that Binders can't do anything even remotely level appropriate without specing gear and feats to one specific combination should tell them that suddenly switching vestiges for the day means you can't do anything level appropriate at all.

[Troacctid]

The first Binder I ever DM'd for was a sneak attacker who took a 3-level dip with Improved Binding because it got him the same sneak attack as Rogue levels, but with some added utility. It turned out that the party's other damage-dealers were getting along pretty well already, so he ended up switching between three or four different vestiges as the adventure demanded. At the end of the campaign, he said being able to change his power set to fit the party's needs was his favorite thing about the character—he went in expecting to be a one-trick pony and ended up being a jack-of-all-trades. (The flavor of the class was also a lot of fun.)

The point being that even if you expect you'll only ever bind the same vestige, the class might surprise you.

[Lans]

If a horde of skeletons is coming, the Rogue is thrilled that he gets to fight skeletons and not elementals, and just walks in with his grave strike wand. On the other hand, the totally not a Rogue Binder should absolutely keep preparing the same vestiges and break out his own wand of Grave Strike, because that will be much better than wasting his time binding Amon. Unless you are talking about level 1, in which case I suggest that while it really doesn't matter what he binds, the rogue throws two flasks a round, and that does as much damage as a breath weapon that can hit 2 targets, which, for something as small as a 30ft line, is probably the most you were going to to get anyway.

In theory it is fine for people to claim that Binders could bind other vestiges, but the sheer fact that Binders can't do anything even remotely level appropriate without specing gear and feats to one specific combination should tell them that suddenly switching vestiges for the day means you can't do anything level appropriate at all.

Against a horde of low level enemies Paimon's dance of death looks like it would be better than sneak attack.

What level do you expect to have a wand of grave strike?

[Beheld]

Against a horde of low level enemies Paimon's dance of death looks like it would be better than sneak attack.

What level do you expect to have a wand of grave strike?

Depends on a lot of things, but you can get your first wand of Grave/Golem Strike at 2nd level, so if you choose Grave over Golem, theoretically at that level. You almost certainly won't, but you can. You can get both by the end of level 3, and probably should, if not the beginning of level 3.

Certainly if you are facing "a horde" of skeletons, you probably have to be at least level 3, and more likely level 5 (and if you are facing skeletons in any appreciable numbers at level 1, like I said, the extra 1d6/2d6 per attack probably isn't that important, since the skeletons come with 6.5 HP average).

But obviously, horde isn't specifically defined with respect to skeletons, so it depends what you mean by horde both in terms of numbers and strength what the Binder and Rogue should do.

[Florian]

That sub-discussion is booooring. Any decent melee build can just wade through that horde of skeletons and be done with it. That s not the issue here.

The Binder-issue here comes down to having the right vestige at the right moment and thats it.

[Beheld]

That sub-discussion is booooring. Any decent melee build can just wade through that horde of skeletons and be done with it. That s not the issue here.

The Binder-issue here comes down to having the right vestige at the right moment and thats it.

Well, in this case, the discussion about how if he's level 5 the right vestige is always and forever the one that gives Sneak attack (presuming that he is in fact, specced as a Flask Avenger).

[Graypairofsocks]

Ignoring the two broken online vestiges, Green Lady and Zycerll, Binder is still far better than a fighter.

I have heard of the Zceryll vestige (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718), but where is the Green Lady from?
Also what is so powerful about it?

[nedz]

I have heard of the Zceryll vestige (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718), but where is the Green Lady from?
Also what is so powerful about it?

Look here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2h3qh?The-Green-Lady#13).

It's a bit of a mishmash

Access to Wizard Spell Trigger items
Spam a 1st level Wizard spell
Free Identify
Turn/Rebuke Undead


TU is best used for powering Devotion feats, though you are limited to the ones which only cost 1 TU usage.

[Beheld]

I have heard of the Zceryll vestige (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718), but where is the Green Lady from?
Also what is so powerful about it?

Honestly, Green Lady isn't all that powerful. It's powerful for a vestige, because most vestiges are terrible, but it allows you to be a level 1 Wizard at level 1 at the cost of a feat.

That makes it the best vestige you can take at level 1, but you won't even be the most powerful level 1 character in your party, and by level 3 you are back to begging for another vestige because anything you are getting drops off a ton.

[daremetoidareyo]

zceryll ain't that broken. He's a level 6 vestige. He grants a little slice of the wizard life. He gets summon monster once every 5 rounds, not even the good monsters, with a duration maxing out at his level in rounds. Unless the binder dips chamelion in order to abuse some feats, this is only OK. With the pseudo template, he gets energy resistance to some types 5-15, truestrike once an encounter, and weak fear buff. On top of those "OP" abilities, he receives a ranged daze attack, and telepathy + mindsight. He's effective, not broken. A sorcerer, cleric, bard, or wizard with two feats can get all of that by that level.

If anything, all 6th level vestiges should offer as much. What is the point of bargaining with powerful pseudo-godlike creatures if they don't actually offer you the power you desire?

I've only played a binder once, and my biggest complaint is the middle levels. 3rd level vestiges are for the most part bleh. And while your friends pick up vampire touch and lightning bolt, and the fighters are finally getting their feat combos to be impressive, you are struggling... unless your race is providing some useful SLAs or fighting ability. Binder is at their weakest at level 4-7 and must be carried through those levels by the rest of the party. In my experience, Malphas and Naberious did like 75% of the work through those levels, along with running away from a bunch of fights in order to get to preferred terrain and different bindings. Once level 8 hits though, you are back to a solid tier 3.

[Beheld]

zceryll ain't that broken. He's a level 6 vestige. He grants a little slice of the wizard life. He gets summon monster once every 5 rounds, not even the good monsters, with a duration maxing out at his level in rounds.

Well allegedly according to some other people in the thread that spawned this one, Binder's Summon Monster is infinite duration, and no one ever said anything about not getting certain monsters.

I think if an entire character concept boils down to "Level appropriate Summon Monster once every 5 rounds" that's a not overpowered character, but still a really bad one, since it relies on constant shifting cast of minions.

EDIT: Indeed, having looked up the ability, the pseudonatural creature template can be added to every single core Summon Monster creature.


Binder is at their weakest at level 4-7 and must be carried through those levels by the rest of the party.

Yeah, of all the flaws of the Binder class, nothing is worse than how slow their vestige progression is.

[Graypairofsocks]

Well allegedly according to some other people in the thread that spawned this one, Binder's Summon Monster is infinite duration, and no one ever said anything about not getting certain monsters.
According to RAW there is no limit on the duration of the summoned monster.
However you should note that by RAW the monster summoned is not actually under your control, and you can't even dismiss it.....

Basically you can summon any monster a Sorcerer of the same level could.

[Lans]

Depends on a lot of things, but you can get your first wand of Grave/Golem Strike at 2nd level, so if you choose Grave over Golem, theoretically at that level. You almost certainly won't, but you can. You can get both by the end of level 3, and probably should, if not the beginning of level 3.
.

Won't you have problems activating the wand?

[Beheld]

Won't you have problems activating the wand?

I guess if you are level 3. But trying every round is a swift action you weren't going to use anyway, and the difference between 1d6 and 4d6 is worth it if you are attacking things that are actually level appropriate. Like I said before, if you are facing 1HD unded, it doesn't even matter, because an alchemist fire will probably kill them all on it's own.