Dumbass rules question.

[Mikezster]

In terms of how many ranks you can put into a given skill, is the maximum ranks available for a given skill tied to the characters ECL? Or is it the number of levels in that class specifically?

E.g A character has 4 fighter levels and 3 wizard levels, the rule for calculating the max number of ranks is New Level+3, for say Knowledge (Planes) is his max number of ranks 6 or 10?

Any house rules that you guess find works better than this?

[Troacctid]

Technically neither--it's tied to the character's total hit dice, which is separate from ECL. (ECL includes level adjustment, which doesn't count towards skill rank caps.)

But in your example, yes, it would be 10.

[AvatarVecna]

Skill maximums are determined by two things: class skill lists and Hit Dice. Your maximum in a full skill is "HD+3", while your maximum in a half skill is "HD+3 halved, rounded down". A full skill is a skill that is or has ever been a class skill for your HD, while a half skill is a skill that has never been a class skill for you.

Now, this doesn't change whether a skill counts as class or cross-class for you in terms of cost; a Rogue 1/Fighter 19 has a maximum of 23 ranks in any skill possessed by either class, but they would basically have to spend most of their Fighter skill points keeping even just one of your Rogue class skills maxed out (maybe more if you've got a good Int).

[Tiri]

Skill maximums are determined by two things: class skill lists and Hit Dice. Your maximum in a full skill is "HD+3", while your maximum in a half skill is "HD+3 halved, rounded down". A full skill is a skill that is or has ever been a class skill for your HD, while a half skill is a skill that has never been a class skill for you.

Now, this doesn't change whether a skill counts as class or cross-class for you in terms of cost; a Rogue 1/Fighter 19 has a maximum of 23 ranks in any skill possessed by either class, but they would basically have to spend most of their Fighter skill points keeping even just one of your Rogue class skills maxed out (maybe more if you've got a good Int).

Well, you could only have HD+3 halved, rounded down skill ranks in any skill on the Rogue list not also on the Fighter list, since all those Fighter levels would have treated it as a half/cross-class skill.

[Cerefel]

Well, you could only have HD+3 halved, rounded down skill ranks in any skill on the Rogue list not also on the Fighter list, since all those Fighter levels would have treated it as a half/cross-class skill.

If a skill was ever a class skill, it keeps the cap as if it were still a class skill, even if it no longer is.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, you could only have HD+3 halved, rounded down skill ranks in any skill on the Rogue list not also on the Fighter list, since all those Fighter levels would have treated it as a half/cross-class skill.

Not true, actually. Read the last line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm): if it was a class skill for Rogues, but not for Fighters, your max ranks in it are "HD+3". Now, you still have to purchase them as cross-class skills if they're cross-class for Fighters (so gaining 1 rank costs 2 points), but if you spend 2 points at every level, you can keep one of those Rogue class skills maxed out, even though it's a cross-class skill for Fighters.

EDIT: Sort of ninja'd, although I provided a link so nyaa :smalltongue:

[nedz]

Well, you could only have HD+3 halved, rounded down skill ranks in any skill on the Rogue list not also on the Fighter list, since all those Fighter levels would have treated it as a half/cross-class skill.

This is a common misconception.

From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm) — last line

Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3.

Ed: Ninja'd, though I provided the link and the quote :smallcool:

[AvatarVecna]

This is a common misconception.

From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm) — last line


Ed: Ninja'd

To build on this, I had this misconception myself a long time ago, because I often played Neverwinter Nights...and in NWN, if you went Rogue 10/Fighter 1, and you had Open Lock maxed out when you took that Fighter level, you couldn't advance it any further at that level because you were past the Fighter's normal skill rank limit for that cross-class skill. It took me awhile to learn that I was wrong on this, but I eventually did.

I don't know if that's the only place the misconception comes from, or if it also comes from the multiclassing rules being a tad too convoluted for more casual players, but NWN is at least once source of this.

[KillianHawkeye]

A minor correction:

Your maximum in a full skill is "HD+3", while your maximum in a half skill is "HD+3 halved, rounded down".

There is actually no rounding involved in this calculation. You totally CAN have half a rank in a cross-class skill; it won't count for anything until you get another half to complete it, but it absolutely can be there.

[AvatarVecna]

A minor correction:


There is actually no rounding involved in this calculation. You totally CAN have half a rank in a cross-class skill; it won't count for anything until you get another half to complete it, but it absolutely can be there.

Alright, fair enough, I was technically wrong. The end result is ultimately similar.

[Venger]

A minor correction:


There is actually no rounding involved in this calculation. You totally CAN have half a rank in a cross-class skill; it won't count for anything until you get another half to complete it, but it absolutely can be there.

While you're right in that having 0.5 ranks in craft (basketweaving) doesn't boost your bonus (you round down with half ranks) it does let you use trained-only skills

[XionUnborn01]

A minor correction:


There is actually no rounding involved in this calculation. You totally CAN have half a rank in a cross-class skill; it won't count for anything until you get another half to complete it, but it absolutely can be there.


While you're right in that having 0.5 ranks in craft (basketweaving) doesn't boost your bonus (you round down with half ranks) it does let you use trained-only skills

Venger is totally right on this, I've used it a bunch of times on characters that I wanted to show had dabbled in a lot of knowledges and professions. .5 rank makes you trained but provides no bonus.

[AvatarVecna]

Venger is totally right on this, I've used it a bunch of times on characters that I wanted to show had dabbled in a lot of knowledges and professions. .5 rank makes you trained but provides no bonus.

It's a neat thing, but if you're doing it for more than 5 skills or so, you may as well take the Jack of All Trades feat, which gives you a half rank in every skill you're not trained in.

[Venger]

It's a neat thing, but if you're doing it for more than 5 skills or so, you may as well take the Jack of All Trades feat, which gives you a half rank in every skill you're not trained in.

You're correct, of course.

Jack of all trades is kind of a weird feat. If you're the type who would enjoy its use, then your playstyle probably predisposes you to skillful classes anyway, so you could just buy the ranks.

If you're playing a brute class, who lacks class skills, it won't really do anything for you, especially since you need a 13 int.

It's a great mesh with bardic knack, though.

Or you could just dip binder and grab naberius.

[Cerefel]

Or you could just dip binder and grab naberius.

Naberius' skills is an ability you can through the Bind Vestige feat so if that's all you'd be doing with the binder dip you're better off with the feat.

[Venger]

Naberius' skills is an ability you can through the Bind Vestige feat so if that's all you'd be doing with the binder dip you're better off with the feat.

fair enough, but a binder dip gets you all his other powers, alongside the other 1s. depending on your build, feats might be tighter than class levels, like with a pouncer

[Ettina]

Not true, actually. Read the last line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm): if it was a class skill for Rogues, but not for Fighters, your max ranks in it are "HD+3". Now, you still have to purchase them as cross-class skills if they're cross-class for Fighters (so gaining 1 rank costs 2 points), but if you spend 2 points at every level, you can keep one of those Rogue class skills maxed out, even though it's a cross-class skill for Fighters.

EDIT: Sort of ninja'd, although I provided a link so nyaa :smalltongue:

Where does it say that? I've always played it where if you grabbed the rogue class first, those skills always counted as class skills even if you were gaining a level of fighter instead. Is that a houserule?

[Deadline]

Where does it say that? I've always played it where if you grabbed the rogue class first, those skills always counted as class skills even if you were gaining a level of fighter instead. Is that a houserule?

Yep, that's a houserule. There's a feat that will let you do that, though. Able Learner, I think. Also, the Human Paragon class has an ability that lets you treat one of your Human Paragon skills as a class skill for all of your classes.

[AvatarVecna]

Where does it say that? I've always played it where if you grabbed the rogue class first, those skills always counted as class skills even if you were gaining a level of fighter instead. Is that a houserule?

Where does it say that? That's the general rule for how skills work, so it's the default unless there's another more specific rule present. The thing I quoted doesn't say "once a class skill, always a class skill", it says "if its ever been a class skill, your maximum rank in that skill is HD+3".

[Venger]

Yep, that's a houserule. There's a feat that will let you do that, though. Able Learner, I think. Also, the Human Paragon class has an ability that lets you treat one of your Human Paragon skills as a class skill for all of your classes.
Yes, that's races of destiny's able learner. adaptive learning functions in this way as do a number of other feats and class features. martial study, for example, lets you always retain your discipline skill as a class skill.


Where does it say that? I've always played it where if you grabbed the rogue class first, those skills always counted as class skills even if you were gaining a level of fighter instead. Is that a houserule?

I think maybe a more clear way than how the srd phrases it might be: "In the absence of features saying 'x is always a class skill,' only consult your current class's skill list for what skills you can buy at cost. all other skills, even from prior classes, cost double."