OOTS #1019 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Origamite]

Maybe the surrounding green fire fried a vampminion? Please?

[Ivrytwr]

Not good!
Though Roy looks very fierce throwing his sword.
Will our heroes save the day?
Thanks Giant.

[2.5 cats]

And off they go.

Funny how the high priesesst of Odin--presumably the highest level Cleric there--did absolutely nothing all battle. Was it because that spear (which Roy embedded in the wall) was her holy symbol, or was she just paralyzed with shock/indecision?

[Professor Gnoll]

And once again, Roy's best efforts are thwarted.

[Ezekiel]

Absolutely beautiful artwork in this one Giant :smallsmile:

[Zwiebelchen]

Trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThrowingYourSwordAlwaysWorks) averted, I'd say. ;)


And damn you, Roy! Haven't you played The Order 1886? Talking to solve misunderstandings is forbidden!

[glowface]

Truly, excessive intelligence and the ability for the analysis of complex situations is just a source of unnecessary nuisance and stress.
Low intelligence must be the key to long life.

[Lord Torath]

Man, Roy looks Ticked!.

Thanks, Giant!

[MaverickMopete]

Welp, that's it, folks. It's the end of the world as we know it.

The Vamps are going to dominate the Dwarven Council, they're going to vote "yes," and the world will be destroyed.

All we can do now is look forward to what will now be infinite comics of blank white space while we wait for Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier!

[ben-zayb]

Since Roy seems to be the level headed one in this gathering, it really surprises me that he never threw his sword earlier at Durkula. Ah, well. Prophecy, here we go!

[Odin's Eyepatch]

For one horrid second I thought that the sword was going to hit Vampire Durkon in the face, and get brought along in the teleport. :smalleek:

I hope we'll soon learn a bit more of the "green rage" which has now activated twice in the same encounter. It would be awesome if Roy was able to find some sort of control over it. (though seeing as it apparently works through emotions, that may be wishful thinking)

[Zwiebelchen]

(though seeing as it apparently works through emotions, that may be wishful thinking)
I guess it's simple as that. It's basicly his super sayjan form.

[Havelocke]

Impressive show of strength to throw the sword at Durkula, but in vain. Things are not looking good for the Heroes. Team Vamp is going to go massacre the Dwarves unless someone does something there. I doubt that the "in the nick of time" airship can make it there that quickly!

[ben-zayb]

Welp, that's it, folks. It's the end of the world as we know it.

The Vamps are going to dominate the Dwarven Council, they're going to vote "yes," and the world will be destroyed.

All we can do now is look forward to what will now be infinite comics of blank white space while we wait for Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier!

The easy guess is that Hel's plan will fail, but at a horrible cost for the dwarven population. No premature apocalypse, but prophecy is fulfilled.

[NerdyKris]

Since Roy seems to be the level headed one in this gathering, it really surprises me that he never threw his sword earlier at Durkula. Ah, well. Prophecy, here we go!

Since when is throwing your melee weapon a level headed move?

[Quebbster]

I really appreciate regular releases. Hope it can continue...

[AvatarVecna]

Should be interesting seeing how they solve this. Maybe with their ship that always arrives in the nick of time? :smallamused:

[Luna_Mayflower]

Oooo. Wonderful as always, Giant.

Edit: Hold on, don't you need to use the same spell to counterspell? How can a Cleric of Hel have a Thor-specific spell to counter with?

[Odin's Eyepatch]

Since Roy seems to be the level headed one in this gathering, it really surprises me that he never threw his sword earlier at Durkula. Ah, well. Prophecy, here we go!

Also, throwing the sword was a bit of a desperate act. If he had done that before, he would have then had had no more weapon to fight with, since his sword would have been in the anti-life barrier.

[Dr.Zero]

And off they go.

Funny how the high priesesst of Odin--presumably the highest level Cleric there--did absolutely nothing all battle. Was it because that spear (which Roy embedded in the wall) was her holy symbol, or was she just paralyzed with shock/indecision?

Good catch on the spear. She, differently from the most of the others HP, has no pendant, so you could be right about the holy symbol.
There are a few others in the same situation, so maybe this is a rare but not unique situation.

[Bulldog Psion]

Now we get an adventure in the dwarven lands! Like Elan hoping for dinosaurs, I'm hoping for woolly mammoths. :smallsmile:

[One Skunk Todd]

Can Roy still attack the fPoH?

[Itrogash]

Well, that's distressing.

[Marp]

More fantastic artwork in this one.

Thank you, Giant!

[WindStruck]

Can Roy still attack the fPoH?
He probably can.. but who knows... the vamp dwarves' real plan is probably to try to destroy the gate themselves. After all, Durkula knows Roy just tried to kill him, and he was his body guard.

No Hel vote = no tie = no need for demi god vote = no point in vamping elders.

Also, I think Roy just learned a new feat. :smallwink:

[Luna_Mayflower]

I hope we'll soon learn a bit more of the "green rage" which has now activated twice in the same encounter. It would be awesome if Roy was able to find some sort of control over it. (though seeing as it apparently works through emotions, that may be wishful thinking)

At the very least, I imagine he'll be able to activate it for Uncle Xykon.

[Ninjaman]

We need a smiley of Roy's face in the last panel.

[3SecondCultist]

Oh no, Roy! He's going to be pissed now. The 'Clatter.' sound effect of his sword hitting the ground with a period is a good mic drop for the scene, though. Good call there, Giant.

Edit: yeah, that face is pretty priceless. I definitely want one for smiley purposes. :smallbiggrin:

[Emperordaniel]

And there they go.

[Mad Humanist]

I prophesy we are heading into an arc that will have lots of zombie-movie tropes.

[zimmerwald1915]

Impressive show of strength to throw the sword at Durkula, but in vain. Things are not looking good for the Heroes. Team Vamp is going to go massacre the Dwarves unless someone does something there. I doubt that the "in the nick of time" airship can make it there that quickly!
Of course it can. That's what "nick of time" means.

Whether "nick of time" for the world is the same as "nick of time" for the dwarves . . . okay, we can all be pretty sure it's not.


Oooo. Wonderful as always, Giant.

Edit: Hold on, don't you need to use the same spell to counterspell? How can a Cleric of Hel have a Thor-specific spell to counter with?
You can use dispel magic or greater dispel magic to counterspell any spell, though they're not as reliable as using the same spell.

[ben-zayb]

Since when is throwing your melee weapon a level headed move?
When the fate of the world is at stake, with a heavily injured vampire being the deciding factor, I'd guess. As mentioned, it would be a desperate act, but the source of despair warrants/justifies doing that, especially since that's what he ends up doing anyway, on a Durkula that already has a teleport orb and better health.

[fishguy]

Oooo. Wonderful as always, Giant.

Edit: Hold on, don't you need to use the same spell to counterspell? How can a Cleric of Hel have a Thor-specific spell to counter with?

Dispel Magic can be used as a counter spell vs most spells.

ninja-ed .... so I will add that the feat Improved Counterspell also allows a caster to counter with a spell from the same school as the cast spell

[3SecondCultist]

You can use dispel magic or greater dispel magic to counterspell any spell, though they're not as reliable as using the same spell.

I was going to reply with this, thanks for the almost ninja! :smalltongue:

Edit: sorry, my commenting about ninjas needs to take back-seat to the actual ninja that just took place above. Damn swordsages!

[Sky_Schemer]

Of course it can. That's what "nick of time" means.

Whether "nick of time" for the world is the same as "nick of time" for the dwarves . . . okay, we can all be pretty sure it's not.


You can use dispel magic or greater dispel magic to counterspell any spell, though they're not as reliable as using the same spell.

Also, we don't know what Hel's domain spells are. Maybe Hel's Lightning is on the list.

[Seto]

At the very least, I imagine he'll be able to activate it for Uncle Xykon.

Careful, Luna, you're making sense :smallwink:

Well... I keep having images of the vampires reappearing in the wrong place because the sword has distracted them, or reappearing with a sword wound, but that's probably because of Dobby.

[MaverickMopete]

Guess the only hope now is to get to the Mechane and get to Dwarven Lands.

Too bad it won't arrive any earlier than the nick of time.

[Malfarian]

Clap clap

[fwiffo]

Any significance to teleport orb being broken, apparently not on purpose, when Thor's Lightning hit? "Kyeesh" doesn't seem like that went as planned.

In other words, could the spell "misbehave"?

[Emperordaniel]

Any significance to teleport orb being broken, apparently not on purpose, when Thor's Lightning hit? "Kyeesh" doesn't seem like that went as planned.

It's a single-use orb. Apparently it contained some kind of magic teleportation gas, and breaking it was how you "activated" it. You can see the tall vampire is intentionally throwing it down to the floor in that panel.

[Mad Humanist]

Any significance to teleport orb being broken, apparently not on purpose, when Thor's Lightning hit? "Kyeesh" doesn't seem like that went as planned.

In other words, could the spell "misbehave"?

No she threw it down deliberately to activate the spell. The Sound effect is for the smashed glass.

[Bulldog Psion]

And off they go.

Funny how the high priestess of Odin--presumably the highest level Cleric there--did absolutely nothing all battle. Was it because that spear (which Roy embedded in the wall) was her holy symbol, or was she just paralyzed with shock/indecision?

I'm going with "paralyzed with shock." It makes it more interesting if not all the high priests are ready for combat at a moment's notice; there have to be one or two duffers who freeze up as soon as the spells start flying. :smallbiggrin:


Absolutely beautiful artwork in this one Giant :smallsmile:

No kidding -- the art keeps going from best to even better.


Welp, that's it, folks. It's the end of the world as we know it.

The Vamps are going to dominate the Dwarven Council, they're going to vote "yes," and the world will be destroyed.

Wow, that's a mighty big conclusion to draw from one success on the part of Lurky.


Impressive show of strength to throw the sword at Durkula, but in vain. Things are not looking good for the Heroes. Team Vamp is going to go massacre the Dwarves unless someone does something there. I doubt that the "in the nick of time" airship can make it there that quickly!

Why would all the dwarven elders be conveniently gathered at one location waiting for Lurky to bop in and dominate them? I'd imagine they're scattered all over the place. Lurky is going to chase down one or two (I'm betting the first one is his mom) but by then the Order will be there chasing him.

Lurky's not going to be able to dominate/vamp the whole council of elders instantly. And four vampires aren't going to spread too much death and destruction very fast. There are 10 million dwarves.


Edit: Hold on, don't you need to use the same spell to counterspell? How can a Cleric of Hel have a Thor-specific spell to counter with?

Huh, that is odd. Maybe there's a house-rule that any spell of an equal level can be used for counterspelling.

Edit: well, while I was typing that, about 10 solutions were posted. Nevermind. :smallbiggrin:

P.S.: I'm still hoping for woolly mammoths in the dwarven lands. Other Pleistocene megafauna would be an even bigger bonus. As dinosaurs are to Elan, so Pleistocene mammals are to me. :smallwink:

[Bobbybobby99]

Oh dear my. Very much intense, and I have no idea what the next comic is going to be, which adds even more intensity. "What now?" I ask myself, ruminating over a pile of grass.

Edit: Thor's Lightning is very possibly a common cleric spell, just with deity specific names, like Righteous might being Thor's might.

[Vectner]

It has been prophesied that Durkon would bring wreck and ruin to the dwarves and their lands. It was also prophesied that he would only return to those lands posthumously.

So there was only one way this could have gone. The fates were against Roy in this one.

On the bright side we know that Elan has a happy ending so I don't believe the world will be unmade, so I think a quick airship trip to the dwarven lands is in order.

[Synesthesy]

Awww :smallfrown:

[Quild]

Can Roy still attack the fPoH?

There's no fPoH. There's a fHPoH and a nHPoH, but no priest/priestess that was a PoH lost his/her faith. Except if you count those who got destroyed as such. But then, no, Roy can't attack those anymore. Since they're destroyed, already.

I wonder, however, if Roy can attack the nHPoH or if he's not her bodyguard and has to be expelled from the Godsmoot building, like, right now.

[Edhelras]

Seems like Durkon will bring death and destruction to them all, after all.....

Stupid to-the-point self-fulfilling high-priestical prophecies!

[Deathmachine]

I wonder, however, if Roy can attack the nHPoH or if he's not her bodyguard and has to be expelled from the Godsmoot building, like, right now.

I would also guess that Roy should be able to just kill the new priest of Hel, but I'm fairly certain that we see the answer to that question in the next comic.

I also would like to congratulate Rich on that awesome art update, Roy going mad gives me the fizz.

[Fitzclowningham]

Huh. I thought we would have seen Belkar by now. I wonder how he's doing?

[Bulldog Psion]

I wonder, however, if Roy can attack the nHPoH or if he's not her bodyguard and has to be expelled from the Godsmoot building, like, right now.

I would guess this to be the case, since it has, IMO, pretty much been spelled out in 200 foot flaming letters that the next direction of the story is "chase down Lurky in Dwarven Lands."

Which I'm looking forward to. Another fighter vs. vampire cleric slugfest in the Moot would be a bit repetitive, IMO, and more than a little anticlimactic.

[Younger Boy]

So I get that we're all upset about vampire Durkon getting away, but how about that sly introduction of a new cleric of Thor? Or do we not think that she will become a character?

[CoffeeIncluded]

I think some sort of rule change is in order.

[grandpheonix]

First impressions? HOLY CRAP HE JUST NOW REALIZED HE COULD THROW THE SWORD?

Second, it looks like the rest of the vamps left? Like... smoked out?

Third, Thor's High Priest got that spell out a little too late, yeah? AND apparently yes, we have split the party.

Lastly,
Belkars gonna be pissed he missed this Ballroom Blitz!

[Basement Cat]

Bingo! Hope is on the horizon!!!

:durkon: "Don't worry, Roy, I'll take good care of Durkon's soul for all eternity in my Mistress' planar domain."

:roy: "Well, now that I know that Durkon is the vampire's prisoner I guess my next side quest will be to free him."

The fHPoH just gave Roy and the rest of the Order enough info for them to go above and beyond merely dusting the vampire.

OTOH: Welp, guess the bad guys got away...

Saw it coming. *shrugs*

[grandpheonix]

Oooo. Wonderful as always, Giant.

Edit: Hold on, don't you need to use the same spell to counterspell? How can a Cleric of Hel have a Thor-specific spell to counter with?

Can burn a spell of the same slot if you are able to spellcraft the know the spell and the slot while holding your action for counterspelling itself.

[Onyavar]

Funny how the high priesesst of Odin--presumably the highest level Cleric there--did absolutely nothing all battle. Was it because that spear (which Roy embedded in the wall) was her holy symbol, or was she just paralyzed with shock/indecision?

Well, shock goes a long way. But also, what was she - as the head of the meeting - to do when two sides emerge to battle (via proxies, but still!) Had she taken side in the fight, her position would probably have been compromised.


The easy guess is that Hel's plan will fail, but at a horrible cost for the dwarven population. No premature apocalypse, but prophecy is fulfilled.

I think so too. There will be a bloody price to pay. (In blood.)

Awesome counterpoint to the glorious page of Haley's flawless victory. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html) They win the little battles, but lose the big ones.

[Gift Jeraff]

So I get that we're all upset about vampire Durkon getting away, but how about that sly introduction of a new cleric of Thor? Or do we not think that she will become a character?

We already knew she was the High Priestess of Thor.

[Basement Cat]

For one horrid second I thought that the sword was going to hit Vampire Durkon in the face, and get brought along in the teleport. :smalleek:


I had the same fear. It's funny how relieved I was to see Roy's sword clatter on the floor.

Funny how he almost never throws it given his demonstrated accuracy with it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0164.gif/)

[Bluepaw]

All the other vampire spawn (any that survived?) seem to be misting on out of there... what about the corpses, though? Do they just dissipate because they don't have coffins?

[wkwkwkwk1]

Loved the "CLATTER."

On the other hand, Roy can now take care of the new High Priestess!

[Bulldog Psion]

First impressions? HOLY CRAP HE JUST NOW REALIZED HE COULD THROW THE SWORD?

I doubt it. In a D&D world, throwing his sword is a truly suboptimal move; one sword hit cannot kill a high level opponent unless they're almost dead already. Disarming himself for the sake of getting one additional non-fatal hit would be a very poor move.

My guess is that he only threw it now because he knows Lurky is going to be gone and won't stroll up and kill him while he's unarmed; and he's desperate and hoping that Lurky is in single-digit hps, and that he can therefore kill him, maybe.


econd, it looks like the rest of the vamps left? Like... smoked out?

They were killed in the previous strip and this strip, where it's shown that they turn to mist once reduced to 0 hit points. In two hours, they will die completely, since they have no coffins to retreat to.


Third, Thor's High Priest got that spell out a little too late, yeah? AND apparently yes, we have split the party.

Exactly.


Lastly,
Belkars gonna be pissed he missed this Ballroom Blitz!

Definitely. :smallbiggrin: But I think he'll have some opportunity to rub Roy's nose in his own mistakes, at least, which should bring the diminutive death-dealer a certain measure of satisfaction.

[Silverionmox]

The obvious thing to do seems that the Roy, as bodyguard, once again attacks the High Priest of Hel. So at least the vote business is dealt with before they go on a merry chase after the four vampires.

Even if he's not allowed anymore for some contrived reason, saving the world should give a large enough XP reward to offset the level loss from dying and being resurrected :p

[rman]

Roy gets major bad-ass points here. And in front of the high clerics of 1/3 the world and their bodyguards. If there is a 6 months later Roy will either be legendary or someone will have cast an epic level forget spell so no one hears the world was on edge.

[luagha]

TV Tropes lied to me! Throwing your sword doesn't always work!

[Bulldog Psion]

The obvious thing to do seems that the Roy, as bodyguard, once again attacks the High Priest of Hel. So at least the vote business is dealt with before they go on a merry chase after the four vampires.

Since this hinges on Hel and her High Priest being utterly ignorant of Godsmoot procedure, or knowing it and still setting up a situation where where Roy can immediately counter their carefully constructed plan, I really doubt that Roy is going to attack the High Priest of Hel. At least not successfully.

Additionally, we've already had an extended "bodyguard fights HPoH vampire in the Moot" sequence. Repeating that all over again would be a "High Priest Fight: Repetitive Bugaloo" situation so recursive that I really, really doubt that Roy is going to attack.

And since killing the new HPoH would remove like 90% of the dramatic tension of Lurky and the other vampires teleporting out, IMO there is a zero percent chance of the situation developing in the manner you describe.

[DigoDragon]

Well... unless the vamp lands on the other side of that teleport with a space-sword-sized hole in his chest, things really ended bad there.

but hey, Durkon got his wish. He's returning home post-mortem. :3

[LoRdofCookIES]

What a great strip!

[Cizak]

The art in this one is amazing. All the different magical effects, Roy's sword flare and facial expressions, the lone "clatter." in the room smoking with vampire dust, that smug HPoH waving as they teleport... Really well done.

[schmunzel]

New comic is up.

so ... beautiful

but beware Roy
Anger leads to the dark side of the force!

Now how does our favorite troup of dogooders will get there ?

sch

[Giggling Ghast]

Well, he got away. Not surprising, though, since the prophecy essentially demanded it.

[Ganbatte]

Thank God it's over.
Now in a non-moronic world I expect Roy to go out explaining to all the other clerics how Durkon is heading to the Dwarven council to dominate/vamp/obviously rig the vote in Hel's favour just like he did here, with everyone else doing something, anything to fix this farce of a voting session.
It's not gonna happen though.

[onigame]

Trope averted, I'd say. ;)


That's not the only Trope that got averted. I note that The Blade (did not) Always Land Pointy Side In.

[Kantaki]

Oh well so much for stopping Durkula before he teleports away. At least following them should be relative easy as long as they have the Mechane.

[Faramir]

so ... beautiful

but beware Roy
Anger leads to the dark side of the force!



I thought anger led to the bright green fiery side of the force?

[Doug Lampert]

The obvious thing to do seems that the Roy, as bodyguard, once again attacks the High Priest of Hel. So at least the vote business is dealt with before they go on a merry chase after the four vampires.

Even if he's not allowed anymore for some contrived reason, saving the world should give a large enough XP reward to offset the level loss from dying and being resurrected :p

Contrived? Really, things working exactly the way you should expect both in the real world and in the comic is somehow CONTRIVED?

It's not contrived at all for a bodyguard to be assigned to a particular PERSON (aka body) rather than an office.

If Obama drops dead tomorrow, Biden's protective detail does not suddenly go off duty and abandon him because "they're the vice president's guards and he's no longer vice president", they stay with him till reassigned, because they are Joe Biden's bodyguards, NOT the bodyguards of whoever happens to hold a particular office. Similarly for the first lady's guards and the president's children's guards, ALL are assigned to a PERSON, not an office.

And we've SEEN two pieces of evidence in comic that this is also the case in the comic: Veldrina has a bodyguard and is not a high priest, so having a guard is not a function of being a high priest and when Roy and Belkar come down with Durkula it's explicitly because Wreccan thinks that Durkon will be allowed two bodyguards despite not being a high priest.

Hence it follows, Roy is STILL the bodyguard of Durkula, anything ELSE would be contrived and unlikely and unreasonable.

Seriously, "plot hole" and "contrived" have actual meanings BEYOND the NPCs and rules aren't exactly as I want them to be to spoil the plot. It would be NICE if people's claimed plot holes and contrivances were at least the LESS LIKELY alternative.

In this case it is overwhelmingly likely that the guards go with the priest, not office. It would be overwhelmingly likely that this would be the case if someone were making up the rules with NO REGARD to the current scenario. Bodyguards who suddenly change who they are supposed to guard at the drop of a hat, THAT would be an unlikely contrivance.

[Shining Wrath]

Durkula is one cold-blooded bastiche, no question. And calm in combat, too. Although the comment about taking care of Durkon's soul will ensure that Roy knows he was not betrayed by Durkon, but by a spirit using Durkon's body. That may matter.

I was so hoping Vaarsuvius had left a fake teleport orb out and hidden the real one; it would have been sweet to see the look on Durkula's face as his plan crumbled around him.

[RblDiver]

So, does this mean the "internal church dispute" can resume? I would think Roy can defeat the new HPOH rather handily, thereby nulling out Hel's vote.

[Ganbatte]

Contrived? Really, things working exactly the way you should expect both in the real world and in the comic is somehow CONTRIVED?

It's not contrived at all for a bodyguard to be assigned to a particular PERSON (aka body) rather than an office.

If Obama drops dead tomorrow, Biden's protective detail does not suddenly go off duty and abandon him because "they're the vice president's guards and he's no longer vice president", they stay with him till reassigned, because they are Joe Biden's bodyguards, NOT the bodyguards of whoever happens to hold a particular office. Similarly for the first lady's guards and the president's children's guards, ALL are assigned to a PERSON, not an office.

And we've SEEN two pieces of evidence in comic that this is also the case in the comic: Veldrina has a bodyguard and is not a high priest, so having a guard is not a function of being a high priest and when Roy and Belkar come down with Durkula it's explicitly because Wreccan thinks that Durkon will be allowed two bodyguards despite not being a high priest.

Hence it follows, Roy is STILL the bodyguard of Durkula, anything ELSE would be contrived and unlikely and unreasonable.

Seriously, "plot hole" and "contrived" have actual meanings BEYOND the NPCs and rules aren't exactly as I want them to be to spoil the plot. It would be NICE if people's claimed plot holes and contrivances were at least the LESS LIKELY alternative.

In this case it is overwhelmingly likely that the guards go with the priest, not office. It would be overwhelmingly likely that this would be the case if someone were making up the rules with NO REGARD to the current scenario. Bodyguards who suddenly change who they are supposed to guard at the drop of a hat, THAT would be an unlikely contrivance.

You sure seems to be overreacting a lot for a pretty calm, polite post like that.

[Shining Wrath]

All the other vampire spawn (any that survived?) seem to be misting on out of there... what about the corpses, though? Do they just dissipate because they don't have coffins?

No coffin means 2 hours from now they are gone forever.

It seems likely to me that you are the bodyguard of a person, not of an office. Otherwise the new HPoH is about to get a whole lot of smacking with a fiery green sword.

Possible other plot: Belkar comes in, learns what the situation is, and sacrifices himself to kill the new HPoH, saving the world and getting nuked by the assembled priests as his reward ... which, being that he sacrificed his own life to save the world, would probably tip him over into at least CN alignment, if not CG. Durkula goes ahead with his plan to dominate the elders because he doesn't know this, or out of revenge.

[Lord Stoneheart]

Thank God it's over.
Now in a non-moronic world I expect Roy to go out explaining to all the other clerics how Durkon is heading to the Dwarven council to dominate/vamp/obviously rig the vote in Hel's favour just like he did here, with everyone else doing something, anything to fix this farce of a voting session.
It's not gonna happen though.

Do the other clerics know that the specific reason Lurky just resigned was to go dominate the dwarves? Even then, would the high priests of the gods who voted yes care? Maybe some of the Lawful ones might be annoyed at Hel twisting the rules left and right, but that might just be "Next world's godsmoots will have better rules." kinda of thing. And some of the other evil gods probably don't care at all. I'm not sure why everyone assumes all the clerics will be super helpful once they have all the information.


So, does this mean the "internal church dispute" can resume? I would think Roy can defeat the new HPOH rather handily, thereby nulling out Hel's vote.

As others have said, Roy was probably strictly a bodyguard to Lurky, not a bodyguard to the general office of the High Priest of Hel. I wouldn't be surprised if the next strip he's in has him getting thrown out of the godsmoot because there's no reason for him to be there anymore (Plus that would be a really weak plan on behalf of Lurky if it ended up with something that Roy could nullify in a strip. I'm sure there will be flaws in the plan for the Order to exploit, just not at this exact moment)

[Sniper Jo]

Seeing all the arguments over what abbreviations for the HPOHs to use, I think we need a name for the new High Priest that's a counterpart to Lurkey Corpsewhiskers.
How about "Macey Shadows"?

[Bulldog Psion]

Seeing all the arguments over what abbreviations for the HPOHs to use, I think we need a name for the new High Priest that's a counterpart to Lurkey Corpsewhiskers.
How about "Macey Shadows"?

Macey Shadows ... I like it. :smallsmile:

[schmunzel]

New comic is up.


Now we get an adventure in the dwarven lands! Like Elan hoping for dinosaurs, I'm hoping for woolly mammoths. :smallsmile:

I WANT TO SEE AN OLYPHANT!!!!

sch

[Jasdoif]

Thank God it's over.
Now in a non-moronic world I expect Roy to go out explaining to all the other clerics how Durkon is heading to the Dwarven council to dominate/vamp/obviously rig the vote in Hel's favour just like he did here, with everyone else doing something, anything to fix this farce of a voting session.
It's not gonna happen though.I'm pretty sure any alterations to the current voting session would end up extending the scene that you seem thankful is over. So I suppose it's just as well if it doesn't happen.

[Spoomeister]

Trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThrowingYourSwordAlwaysWorks) averted, I'd say. ;)



Only because the last strip and this one were too busy using this trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall) instead. I can see the argument that others have made about things happening too fast for the others to realize Durkula was vulnerable - a 'fog of war' sort of thing, basically - but the more I think on it the less I agree with it. This many high-level priests and not one of them realized on their own, among the save-the-world voters, that Durkula was vulnerable and should have been blasted on the spot. Or that any of them would try to look for holes in the rules to affect things themselves. I don't understand or agree with how they all got to that high a level to be kept in check by a series of parliamentary procedures.

Regardless of one's opinion on that subject in particular, it just underscores for me that I've found the Godsmoot-rules portion of the story to be excessively convoluted and contrived. It seemed like the goalposts were nearly constantly moving, just to give the bad guys a half a chance to get out of it.

I'm glad to be mostly past this section of it, to get back to Belkar's fate and the general race to the last gate. Or heck, even popping in to see what Xykon and company have been doing for the last few dozens of strips. Here's hoping that the next encounters with Durkula will be much more like pre-Godsmoot stuff, as he's a great character.

[Spoomeister]

Thank God it's over.
Now in a non-moronic world I expect Roy to go out explaining to all the other clerics how Durkon is heading to the Dwarven council to dominate/vamp/obviously rig the vote in Hel's favour just like he did here, with everyone else doing something, anything to fix this farce of a voting session.
It's not gonna happen though.

Yup. I'm with you on all of this. The sooner the plot can get away from this whole Godsmoot thing the better.

[Shining Wrath]

Personally ready to see what's going down on the Mechane.

[Doug Lampert]

You sure seems to be overreacting a lot for a pretty calm, polite post like that.

I've been seeing people complaining about "contrived" rules for about 10 threads now. Mostly in ways that make it clear that the writer:
(a) has no clue whatsoever about how organizational rules work in the real world
(2) has not been paying any attention whatsoever to the actual comic which provides solid evidence that their interpretation is wrong
(iii) has not considered how things would be if their proposed rules were in place since they result in an unworkable mess
(D) is criticizing SOMEONE ELSE for having such "contrived" rules when their own rules would be the contrived ones.

Seriously, bodyguard goes with the office rather than person is an organizational disaster that would be almost totally unprecedented in the real world. Guard details are assigned to a person and there has been no indication whatsoever in the comic that guards are not personal in comic (quite the contrary). That the guard probably goes with the person rather than office has been pointed out repeatedly in discussion threads.

I fail to see why I should NOT use emphasis when talking to someone who missed a statement the first 20 or so times it was made by multiple different people in the main discussion threads.

[Ganbatte]

Do the other clerics know that the specific reason Lurky just resigned was to go dominate the dwarves? Even then, would the high priests of the gods who voted yes care? Maybe some of the Lawful ones might be annoyed at Hel twisting the rules left and right, but that might just be "Next world's godsmoots will have better rules." kinda of thing. And some of the other evil gods probably don't care at all. I'm not sure why everyone assumes all the clerics will be super helpful once they have all the information.

Because they don't want the world to end? Because this voting was about democratically deciding how to handle the Snarl's problem and not Hel's childish gloat for power?
Why are only the "Yes" clerics super-proactive when it comes to enforcing their votes while the "No" ones are all happily twiddling their thumbs while watching an obviously rigged process?

[schmunzel]

Since this hinges on Hel and her High Priest being utterly ignorant of Godsmoot procedure, or knowing it and still setting up a situation where where Roy can immediately counter their carefully constructed plan, I really doubt that Roy is going to attack the High Priest of Hel. At least not successfully.

Additionally, we've already had an extended "bodyguard fights HPoH vampire in the Moot" sequence. Repeating that all over again would be a "High Priest Fight: Repetitive Bugaloo" situation so recursive that I really, really doubt that Roy is going to attack.

And since killing the new HPoH would remove like 90% of the dramatic tension of Lurky and the other vampires teleporting out, IMO there is a zero percent chance of the situation developing in the manner you describe.

I mostly agree with your reasoning - though I guess that the nHPoH is the nHPoH because there needs to be a HPoH (aHPoH) around when Durkula leaves, since otherwise the church of Hel would be in disagreement with Procedure. Whether there is aHPoH around when Durkula returns to be the nHPoH to replace the fnHPoH (formerly new HPoH) is quite another matter entirely.

Also there are obviously no new Bodyguards - so I believe that the nHPoH at this point is completely at Roys mercy.
I believe she'll be offed by Belkar.

sch

[Keltest]

Cant say im surprised the plot didn't end here, but at least the clerics actually tried.

[Omegonthesane]

Oooo. Wonderful as always, Giant.

Edit: Hold on, don't you need to use the same spell to counterspell? How can a Cleric of Hel have a Thor-specific spell to counter with?

Dispel Magic. Redcloak did similar before he killed Tsukiko.

~~~

I wish to point people's attention to how the new High Priest of Hel just left the room, invalidating Hel's vote.

[Keltest]

Dispel Magic. Redcloak did similar before he killed Tsukiko.

~~~

I wish to point people's attention to how the new High Priest of Hel just left the room, invalidating Hel's vote.

:smallconfused:

She's standing right there, in the middle of the last panel, looking strangely indifferent to the events unfolding around her.

[schmunzel]

I thought anger led to the bright green fiery side of the force?

Well obviously, yes - but THAT leads directly to the dark side!

sch

[Shining Wrath]

:smallconfused:

She's standing right there, in the middle of the last panel, looking strangely indifferent to the events unfolding around her.

And Roy even called her out; "The one with the mace" is the only one they can't attack, and the rest are clouds of mist floating about the temple searching for coffins that don't exist.

[Basement Cat]

How about "Macey Shadows"?

You just won the thread, my friend. :smallsmile:

OT: I suspect Roy's throwing his sword will give Macey Shadow's sufficient time to simply say "You're fired." Without his sword Roy can't kill an armed vampire in a single round and she could simply turn to mist if she wanted to, anyway.

I expect another story shift away from the Godsmoot but I hope Belkar shows up before that happens so we don't lose track of him again.

And because I realy want to see him tell Roy: :belkar: "I told you so!!!"

[Bobblit]

Oooh, update! Nearly didn't notice it.

Angry Roy is angry... and this isn't looking like it'll end well at all :smallconfused:

[MaverickMopete]

:smallconfused:

She's standing right there, in the middle of the last panel, looking strangely indifferent to the events unfolding around her.

She's "strangely indifferent" because she knows no one can attack her (without violating the rules of the Godsmoot) except Roy, and he just threw his sword away.

[Keltest]

She's "strangely indifferent" because she knows no one can attack her (without violating the rules of the Godsmoot) except Roy, and he just threw his sword away.

I mean, ok, she personally isn't in any danger, but you would think she would at least be smirking or something.

[Lord Stoneheart]

Because they don't want the world to end? Because this voting was about democratically deciding how to handle the Snarl's problem and not Hel's childish gloat for power?
Why are only the "Yes" clerics super-proactive when it comes to enforcing their votes while the "No" ones are all happily twiddling their thumbs while watching an obviously rigged process?

The No votes were proactive? They just didn't realize that they could have saved the world by attacking Lurky before he could teleport out. So they attacked more convenient target. (Presumably the only person who heard Lurky and VampGontor's conversation in 1016 was Roy himself. Or nobody did and Roy put two and two together in 1017 once he saw the teleport orb)

As for whether the No votes will be willing to give Roy aid in stopping Lurky now, you also have to consider that the Yes votes would be interested in preventing Roy from stopping Lurky. They could decide no one gives him aid to prevent more indirect conflict between the priests.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Well that was just uncalled for, hoarding the plotcritical magic item just to destroy it.

[137beth]

Whelp, now the plot won't end here. Which we basically already knew, seeing as we're only a third of the way through the book.

Now it's time for Roy to destroy the new HPoH....

[Rift_Wolf]

My prediction;

Roy: I can still finish one job off today... I'm still allowed to kill-
HpoH: you're fired.
Roy: DAMMIT! Why did I take that character flaw that made talking a move action?
HPoO: I'm afraid by the rules you must leave. You've caused enough disruption already.
HpoH: mwahahaha! Now I'm the high priest of Hel, there's nothing you can do! To clarify, I am the designated high priest and you cannot kill me to save the-
*Belkar drops down with Halfling Jump Rage Attack.*
Roy: Huh. Looks like that character flaw was more popular than I thought.

Bear in mind there are Groundhogs that have better prediction rates than me.

[zyxophoj]

Two questions:


Didn't Roy just win? If he kills Mace Lady, Hel loses her vote and the gods' vote is no longer tied, so it doesn't matter what the demigods want.

More importantly, does Roy get XP for "defeating" Durkula and his replacement in this manner?

[Pyrous]

Two questions:


Didn't Roy just win? If he kills Mace Lady, Hel loses her vote and the gods' vote is no longer tied, so it doesn't matter what the demigods want.

More importantly, does Roy get XP for "defeating" Durkula and his replacement in this manner?

He didn't kill Mace Lady so no, he didn't just win.

If he does kill her, he will have defeated Phyrnglsnyx. The XP gain would be dependent on the DM's CR calculation for the encounter.

However, it should be noted that he may no longer have bodyguard status and even if he still have it, Mace Lady can just gaseous form out of his reach.

[Aegis J Hyena]

Durkula 1, Roy 0. Now do they follow them or go to the last gate?

Were it me, I'd go to the gate before Mr. Boney and his sidekick One Eye get to it. They will NOT be able to save the dwarves in time.

And now the Belkster has nothing to "charge in on to save the day"...

[1dominator]

What if Roy just kills the new High Priest? I doubt she is that tough, and she probably has no spells prepared.

[Killer Angel]

Durkula 1, Roy 0.

but the war is not over! :smallbiggrin:


poor Belkar... he'll arrive late.

[Ganbatte]

As for whether the No votes will be willing to give Roy aid in stopping Lurky now, you also have to consider that the Yes votes would be interested in preventing Roy from stopping Lurky.

Which would be the most moronic development so far as Hel is very clearly planning to use her vampires to cheat (but apparently none of the Godsmoot's peoples cares about that) this democratic voting.

[JessmanCA]

Only one solution I can see. Roy attacks the new Priest of Hel killing her, sacrificing himself for the good of the realm. Or Belkar attacks her because it's one of Durkula's minions. Then since Hel has no current representation she loses the vote.

[eilandesq]

*sigh* Roy, it would have been a tad more clever to attack the undefended new HPoH before she has a chance to fire you rather than flinging your sword and costing yourself at least a round or two to recover it (and running the nonzero risk that Durkula pops out and takes it with him after a solid nonfatal hit). Oh well--probably just setting up Belkar's Dying Moment of Awesome.

[goodpeople25]

On the bodyguard topic i would like to add something I've been sitting on to the previous statement(s?) that having the bodyguards tied to the HP office doesn't really make sense. To me the typical situation at the Godsmoot makes HPs automatically (considering relative power differences between D&D and IRL sometimes you might want to have the higher leveled body guards) retaining the previous bodyguards make even less sense. As policy is to send only one HP, I would expect the likely reason for it to be in the rules would be if a HP died of old age (not really that farfetched I can't really think of valid reasons for abdicating in the middle of a moot) and if they needed a New HP he/she would need to be sent for (most likely as in sending or a similar spell) and then having the previous bodyguards go back to get him/her doesn't really make sense compared to using different bodyguards and heading out after being contacted.

[stor]

This is a great catch. Strip oots0331 in case anyone cares to take a look


It has been prophesied that Durkon would bring wreck and ruin to the dwarves and their lands. It was also prophesied that he would only return to those lands posthumously.

So there was only one way this could have gone. The fates were against Roy in this one.

On the bright side we know that Elan has a happy ending so I don't believe the world will be unmade, so I think a quick airship trip to the dwarven lands is in order.

[Jasdoif]

Were it me, I'd go to the gate before Mr. Boney and his sidekick One Eye get to it. They will NOT be able to save the dwarves in time.Given that the dwarves would be destroyed along with the rest of the world if HPoH's plan succeeds, I don't think ignoring it to go after Xykon and Redcloak would be at all prudent. Stopping Xykon's plot to take over the world isn't going to make much difference if the world's destroyed shortly thereafter.



As for whether the No votes will be willing to give Roy aid in stopping Lurky now, you also have to consider that the Yes votes would be interested in preventing Roy from stopping Lurky.Which would be the most moronic development so far as Hel is very clearly planning to use her vampires to cheat (but apparently none of the Godsmoot's peoples cares about that) this democratic voting.You really think a lot of the high priests of "Yes" voters are more interested in fair play than in winning?

[PallentisLunam]

But but but, throwing your sword always works (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThrowingYourSwordAlwaysWorks) :smallfrown:

[Aegis J Hyena]

Oh gods, a TVTropes link. Heh. *wisely doesn't click, fearing the abyss*

I really gotta comb over (with a chainsaw) my writing for tropes, now that I think about it. I bet I have dozens in the story I posted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473746-The-Saga-Of-The-Forgotten-Dragon-Guild-%28working-title%29) to the Arts and Crafts thread looking for pre-readers this means you guys, because you are smart and I am not before I go and edit it.

[Breitheamh]

I see some people saying that all the priests, or at least a majority of the priests (which would include a few "yes" voters) will try to help Roy now that they know Durkula's trying to cheat, and while I wish that were the case, I highly doubt it is.

First of all, they are HIGH PRIESTS. You don't become the top ranked member of your church's hierarchy without complete faith in your deity. Call it blind faith if you want, but I doubt any of them will be going against their deity's wishes to let the world be destroyed without SERIOUS compulsion. Basically, nothing short of a message from their own deity is going to change their stance at this point. I'm certain some of the gods who voted yes would like to take back their vote at this point, but short of commanding their high priest to commit suicide or break a major law of the godsmoot in order to nullify their vote, they can't. Until the "yes" voters hear otherwise from their gods, I doubt they will do anything that could jeopardize their gods' votes.

Secondly, how many of them care whether or not the dwarves are doomed to Hel and Hel becomes the new queen of the gods? Any dwarven clerics would certainly care, but not many of them are dwarves. It looks like most of the priests are humans, and the two, possibly three, dwarves voted "no" anyway. No one besides the dwarves is guaranteed to care what happens to the souls of dwarves. Beyond that, I bet a lot of the priests of evil deities are evil themselves, meaning they probably don't mind having Hel as their queen, or might even prefer her to Odin.

As for the "no" voters, given that the "yes" voters probably won't do anything to stop this for the above reasons, the "no" voters are stuck doing nothing as well. If they do anything that could jeopardize their deity's vote, they doom the world because one nullified "no" would break the tie in favor of destroying the world. So, as before, I think we have a stalemate. The Order is on their own.

[kaoskonfety]

Which would be the most moronic development so far as Hel is very clearly planning to use her vampires to cheat (but apparently none of the Godsmoot's peoples cares about that) this democratic voting.

Um, no they don't care about that? The idea that the mortal dwarves get a say at all probably rubs most of them the wrong way.

Do your house pets get to veto you taking them to the vet? Do their fleas?

If they did would bribery be acceptable? Cheating even?
"were leaving with the tuna guys, get in the cat carrier or no tuna!"
Later, a final vet visit - it was unpleasant, but necessary.

Now to get a new cat.

The gods don't give a D*** what the mortlas think and have not even set up a means to hear them (something that I assume would be trivial), some of them are clearly voting out of spite or indifference "Whatever Odin and Thor vote, so no, I guess?", "YES! BURN THE WORLD! Piss on the ashes!".

Hel isn't cheating, the rules are clear, Dvalinn is currently holding the tie breaking vote. The dwarves getting a say is very likely NOT part of the rules, so this domination scheme could easily be fair game (he was deified AFTER the world was made, which may have been when the rules were set out, and only then did it become a concern, and only then in tie breaking that is itself tied).

Dvalinn isn't being coerced - I assume that would be against the rules. Dominating mortals is not against the rules, because they don't matter. Dvalinn selecting his vote because of a bunch of mortals isn't against the rules, its just him following an old oath and picking a 'bad' reason for his vote yea or nea ... to the bitter end. Like a good dwarf.

Yes, Lawful Stupid as presented, but we shall see. Will he take their dominated vote? Will he see and know their 'will' on the matter?? Will the order stop this plan in action!?! Find out!... later! on Order of the Stick!

[PallentisLunam]

This is a great catch. Strip oots0331 in case anyone cares to take a look

The world ends, Elan and Haley, both being chaotic good go to the same place and live happily ever after. Only Elan is promised a happy ending. That probably includes Haley at this point but it says nothing about the rest of the world.

[Lkctgo]

That is one vulnerable looking new high priest of hel. Not sure that she's going to be able to stand up to a Belkar Bitterleaf suicide assault.

[Deliverance]

What if Roy just kills the new High Priest? I doubt she is that tough, and she probably has no spells prepared.
Roy was the accepted bodyguard of the previous high priest of Hel.

Unless the new high priest of Hel appoints him her bodyguard, which seems unlikely, presumably the moment he attacks the new high priest he'll be in violation of the rules and all the high priests will be obligated to nuke him till he glows, while she retreats out of reach in gaseous form.

I could see Belkar attacking her by surprise, though. :smallbiggrin:

[Aegis J Hyena]

I could see Belkar attacking her by surprise, though. :smallbiggrin:

I'm almost expecting him to be vamped by the big guy outside first, then he pops up in one panel with just his cloak showing going "I'm back!"... Roy either smiles at the reinforcements (such as it is) or goes "oh, great... you again"... then Belkar pops up, vamped... going "Too bad for you."

[rodneyAnonymous]

A mace with spikes is called a morningstar.

[Baphomet]

These guys are really strict on following the word, not the spirit, of their godsmoot rules, so here's the way I see this going. So the priests are allowed to have two people enter with them to act as their bodyguard, but the priest changed mid-procedure, and is presumably about to fire her bodyguards. Let's say Macey does that immediately next strip. Bodyguards are allowed to attack their own priests if it's an internal church dispute, but if Roy is fired it's no longer an internal church dispute, so he probably won't since it would result in all the other clerics killing him. However, the rules already allowed him to enter the room, and there's no rules saying that he has to leave if he's fired, so technically he can stay even though he's no longer associated with any church. He's going to have to stand there hemming and hawing about whether it's worth it to kill Macey, probably with some of the yes-voting clerics making it clear that if he does, his body will be destroyed past the point of possible resurrection.

At this point Belkar comes in. He doesn't know he's fired and isn't allowed to enter, he didn't hear all this conversation, he just sees another vampire, and immediately dusts her.

[wolfdreams01]

Personally, I just look forward to Belkar finally coming back up the mountain, ready to save the day and get into an argument with Roy, only to find the battle over and Roy conceding that Belkar was right all along. It should make for a funny moment. :smallbiggrin:

[blunk]

1. could the High Priest of Odin or Thor Send ahead to warn the elders, or has it already been established that Sending doesn't work into Dwarven Lands (hence Durkon not just calling home to find out if he could return)?

2. could some cleric with the travel domain teleport the party ahead? Or as someone else pointed out, use a scroll?

[Lord Stoneheart]

You really think a lot of the high priests of "Yes" voters are more interested in fair play than in winning?

Especially since some of the Gods aren't Lawful themselves. How do we know that many of them would even care if Hel basically cheated so she would get more power in the next world. Of course Odin, and Thor aren't going to like that but they voted no anyway. Maybe Heimdall would change his vote from Yes to No if he knew about the fate of the dwarves, but his high priest doesn't know that. And maybe many of the Yes gods would be just fine with Hel having more power. I mean look at some of the Yes reasons.

Njord: I'm bored of this world anyway!
Hoder: This world's time has passed
Vafthrudnir: ...Too many mortals know of the rifts
Surtur: It's no Ragnorak, but it will do.
Thrym: My reasons are my own.
Fenrir Tear down the world! Murder everyone! Piss on their graves!

Something tells me that those gods aren't very concerned about the fate of the dwarves. And they might not really care whether the rules weren't followed in spirit. (They technically, still have been followed in word however. Lawful Evil types like Lurky are annoying like that). Especially that last one. For some reason I can't see Fenrir caring about democracy except that he has to play by the rules to prevent another Snarl from forming.

Yes, it's incredibly stupid of Dvalin to be demigod of the dwarves, and to vote in a manner that would condemn the dwarves. But the whole "Follow the rules no matter how stupid the conclusion is." has been the dwarves' thing in the OOTS world. And having it taken to these extremes might cause Durkon to have some realizations about his outlook on life. (Assuming he gets his life back at least).

[Ganbatte]

As for the "no" voters, given that the "yes" voters probably won't do anything to stop this for the above reasons, the "no" voters are stuck doing nothing as well.

This makes zero sense as Hel's cheating is bypassing their voting. They have all the more reasons now to pitch in and stop her from meddling with the Dwarven council too as she already caused enough damage with the Godsmoot.


If they do anything that could jeopardize their deity's vote, they doom the world because one nullified "no" would break the tie in favor of destroying the world. So, as before, I think we have a stalemate. The Order is on their own.

So wait, only the "yes" voters are allowed to "do things that may jeopardize their deity's vote" with complete impunity, but the naysayers can't?
Same as above, very little sense.

[Basement Cat]

I mean, ok, she personally isn't in any danger, but you would think she would at least be smirking or something.


Well...she's a newly spawned vampire: Her entire world revolves around serving the vampire who spawned her, i.e. Durkula, and he just left her behind after randomly selecting her to replace him as HPoH.

Maybe she's feeling disappointed because she wasn't able to accompany her master. Maybe she's a little concerned over being alone among a lot of high priests despite the protective rules of the Godsmoot.

Maybe she just isn't an arse like Durkula. As the vampires seem to have individual personalities maybe she's a pleasant sort (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PunchClockVillain) of bloodsucking evil. :smallwink:

[PallentisLunam]

his body will be destroyed past the point of possible resurrection

No such state exists since a true resurrection can be enacted without requiring a piece of Roy.

[Messenger]

So what now? Does the Order detour to stop Durkula? Or do they continue to Kraagor's? Either way, it seems like the fulfillment of an end of the world scenario. :smallfrown:

And: Where's Belkar?

[Kish]

Soul Bind him and toss the gem into a rift.

(...although really, I think "destroyed to the point of needing a Resurrection which no one in here will give him; maybe you could go ask that dwarf vampire who just left? He looked like the obliging sort" would be more than sufficient.

No, this is not going to happen. Roy is going after the former High Priest of Hel. The fate of the world is staying in the balance.)

[Breitheamh]

This makes zero sense as Hel's cheating is bypassing their voting. They have all the more reasons now to pitch in and stop her from meddling with the Dwarven council too as she already caused enough damage with the Godsmoot.

I think either you misunderstood what I said, or I did not say it well.

You are correct that the "no" voters have many reasons to try and stop Hel, but the "yes" voters have reasons to not try to stop Hel. All the "yes" voters have to do is nothing. Their side seems to be winning, so theres no need to get in the way by doing something.


So wait, only the "yes" voters are allowed to "do things that may jeopardize their deity's vote" with complete impunity, but the naysayers can't?
Same as above, very little sense.

See above. The "yes" voters don't get to act with impunity at all, but that's fine because following their deities' wishes means they don't have to act at all in this situation. Their side is already winning.

The "no" voters, in order to fulfill their deities' wishes for the world to not be destroyed, have an incentive to stop Hel's plan. But the more immediate concern is that until they find a loophole of some sort, chances are good that anything they do toward stopping Hel could jeopardize their deities' votes, so they won't do anything.

Does that make more sense?

[Bulldog Psion]

This makes zero sense as Hel's cheating is bypassing their voting. They have all the more reasons now to pitch in and stop her from meddling with the Dwarven council too as she already caused enough damage with the Godsmoot.

That's true, except that none of them can leave the Godsmoot to stop Lurky from meddling with the Dwarven council.

They'd need to have some kind of third party to go intervene on their behalf.

Thinking about it, a band of ragtag but powerful heroes, preferably one with an airship for fast transportation, led by a lawful good character and with strong personal reasons for wanting to bring down Lurky, plus a thorough knowledge of the stakes involved, would be ideal for preventing Hel from meddling with Dvalinn's vote.

Tsk, tsk ... if only such a band of heroes were available... :smallcool:

[Nightcanon]

Since when is throwing your melee weapon a level headed move?

When you need to something inside an anti-life shell that you can't otherwise enter, very quickly, and don't have a ranged weapon? It's a million to one chance, but it might just work...

[kaoskonfety]

This makes zero sense as Hel's cheating is bypassing their voting. They have all the more reasons now to pitch in and stop her from meddling with the Dwarven council too as she already caused enough damage with the Godsmoot.



So wait, only the "yes" voters are allowed to "do things that may jeopardize their deity's vote" with complete impunity, but the naysayers can't?
Same as above, very little sense.

I think you missed the point the poster was making: No one is going to (significantly) risk their vote, except MAYBE Hel. Assuming Hel is cheating. Which I still don't see. I'd be amazed if dominating mortals was against the rules. Yes it's influencing the vote. But only by proxy and arguably less forcefully than yelling at Hermod, no one is forcing Dvalin to do anything. He's making a choice. A choice based on some random mortals choices. But its his choice to make.

The priest stand off is more "I won't spend spell slots to enforce my gods will if you don't", arguably risking the votes of everyone involved.

Ninjaed

[HandofShadows]

Awwwww Crap. :smalleek: Poor Roy.

[Anarion]

Looks like it's time for that ruin to the dwarves lands thing. I wonder if Durkon's mother will make an appearance.

[Basement Cat]

Call it blind faith if you want, but I doubt any of them will be going against their deity's wishes to let the world be destroyed without SERIOUS compulsion. Basically, nothing short of a message from their own deity is going to change their stance at this point. I'm certain some of the gods who voted yes would like to take back their vote at this point, but short of commanding their high priest to commit suicide or break a major law of the godsmoot in order to nullify their vote, they can't. Until the "yes" voters hear otherwise from their gods, I doubt they will do anything that could jeopardize their gods' votes.

Sinna voted "Yes" but her HP said he didn't figure she'd object to him frying a few vampires, so there's a precedent for a HP following the rules of the Godsmoot by the letter rather than the spirit.

As a counter-balance to blind faith: You can't reach High Priest of your faith by not understanding your god's desires and wishes. :smallwink:

Also the gods who voted yes may feel a little differently about the matter now that Hel's had her pre-victory villainous gloating moment which included her pointing out that the entire dwarven race was doomed by the laws of the cosmos.

Now that Durkula is an open target the "No" and maybe Sinna's "Yes" voting HP's are perfectly free to move against Hel's genocidal motion so long as they don't violate their god's will directly.

For example: Remember that Tyr's reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) for voting "Yes" was a refusal to have anyone gain strategic advantage over the gods....but that was before Hel out-flanked everyone. So I can see the god of war being a little--itty--bitty--bit furious at the sudden turn of events and thus be willing to permit his HP to move against Durkula (who's no longer HPoH) and thus move to counter Hel's intentions. Doing so would not conflict with the "No Backsies" rule, after all.

All of that said: You're right for the most part and I figure that the situation will largely involve the Order handling everything with the conclave largely being useless.

[Breitheamh]

I think you missed the point the poster was making: No one is going to (significantly) risk their vote, except MAYBE Hel. Assuming Hel is cheating. Which I still don't see. I'd be amazed if dominating mortals was against the rules. Yes it's influencing the vote. But only by proxy and arguably less forcefully than yelling at Hermod, no one is forcing Dvalin to do anything. He's making a choice. A choice based on some random mortals choices. But its his choice to make.

The priest stand off is more "I won't spend spell slots to enforce my gods will if you don't", arguably risking the votes of everyone involved.

^^This. It seems like Hel has had a VERY long time to pore over the rules and find anything she could exploit. It's not like she's had anything else to do at these meetings. So I doubt that there is any rule that actually prevents her from dominating the dwarven elders to influence the vote.

But even if there is, the Church of Hel cannot be held liable if a heretical splinter group just so happens to dominate a group of dwarven elders in order to influence their decision about whether or not to destroy the world.


Sinna voted "Yes" but her HP said he didn't figure she'd object to him frying a few vampires, so there's a precedent for a HP following the rules of the Godsmoot by the letter rather than the spirit.

As a counter-balance to blind faith: You can't reach High Priest of your faith by not understanding your god's desires and wishes. :smallwink:

Also the gods who voted yes may feel a little differently about the matter now that Hel's had her pre-victory villainous gloating moment which included her pointing out that the entire dwarven race was doomed by the laws of the cosmos.

Now that Durkula is an open target the "No" and maybe Sinna's "Yes" voting HP's are perfectly free to move against Hel's genocidal motion so long as they don't violate their god's will directly.

For example: Remember that Tyr's reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) for voting "Yes" was a refusal to have anyone gain strategic advantage over the gods....but that was before Hel out-flanked everyone. So I can see the god of war being a little--itty--bitty--bit furious at the sudden turn of events and thus be willing to permit his HP to move against Durkula (who's no longer HPoH) and thus move to counter Hel's intentions. Doing so would not conflict with the "No Backsies" rule, after all.

All of that said: You're right for the most part and I figure that the situation will largely involve the Order handling everything with the conclave largely being useless.

Those are some good points. However, I would say that the problem remains that these High Priests are stuck in this meeting hall in order to fulfill their deities' wishes, so their options for directly affecting Durkula's plan are severely limited at best.

On the other hand, the Church of (Insert Chosen Deity Here) cannot be held liable if a large number of clerics hear about a heretical cult of Hel/coven of evil vampires infiltrating Dwarven lands and decide to put a stop to it.

[Nightcanon]

This is a great catch. Strip oots0331 in case anyone cares to take a look

Great catch in that this has been telegraphed ever since Durkon was vamped (and will thus return home after death) and will bring death and destruction with him ('cos he's now a bad guy)? We've been waiting for this moment for months now, with the only questions being how and when. Since they acquired the teleportation Orb, the question has been at what point in the next half-dozen or so strips they would move out.

More generally, well, here we are at the point that we knew was coming, more or less, since Gontor stole the Orb. The good news is, no-one looks like they want to take Roy to task over the internal church dispute he just had with his former employer. I'm predicting a rapid resolution to the question of Roy (and Belkar's) relationship to the Frontarch- either Roy or a newly returned Belkar scrags her quickly, or it is just as quickly established that doing so would incur the wrath of the assembled high priests, and we have a quick regroup of the Order back on the Mechane before chasing off to stop Durkon, either way.

[Baphomet]

No such state exists since a true resurrection can be enacted without requiring a piece of Roy.

A spell which Rich says he hates the existence of and which he probably won't introduce in the comic.

[Breitheamh]

A spell which Rich says he hates the existence of and which he probably won't introduce in the comic.

Well it's kind of implied in this strip: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html

[NeeL]

So, time for Wrecan to sacrifice himself and kill the new representative of Hell so that Roy doesn't have to die to end this voting thing and the OOTS can go heads deep in their final story arc. Either the big showdown for the last gate or the diminishing of a dwarven vampire army. Probably both. Yay!!!

[PallentisLunam]

A spell which Rich says he hates the existence of and which he probably won't introduce in the comic.

It has already been mentioned. When Roy was dead they talked about needing a 17th level cleric to bring him back without his body.

When did Rich say he hates True Resurrection?

Edit: half ninja'd

[Breitheamh]

So, time for Wrecan to sacrifice himself and kill the new representative of Hell so that Roy doesn't have to die to end this voting thing and the OOTS can go heads deep in their final story arc. Either the big showdown for the last gate or the diminishing of a dwarven vampire army. Probably both. Yay!!!

I'm pretty sure Rich has said he's expecting the story to go for two more books after BRitF, so this isn't the Order's final arc anyway.

[Alsadius]

An obvious way to save the world comes to mind: "Her in the front" is still the High Priest of Hel, and thus is still bodyguarded by Roy. I think Roy can take her. Thus, the HPOH 2.0 isn't in the room, Hel's vote doesn't count, and the world is saved.

Failing that, Dvalin swore to obey the will of the Council, but he could perhaps argue that the Council's will has been taken from them. He didn't hear the vampire confess the plan, but presumably his High Priest can fill him in.

[Dr.Zero]

I don't know why you all worry about the bodyguard status of Roy.
He can attack HPOH and it would still be an internal church dispute (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html).

On the other hand there was no rule which allowed a bodyguard to attack his own HP, simply there was no rule about it at all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html). And this permitted Roy to attack.

So, as far as it has been shown to us, the simple absence of a rule regarding a specific situation is enough to make it legit.

So, internal church dispute -> no violation of the rules.
The bodyguards of the other HP are not allowed to attack (seems to be an explicit rule someway) but if there is not a specific rule forbidding an ex BD to attack, then he can attack. I repeat the point above: there was no rule permitting a BD to attack his own HP, simply there was no rule regarding it, and this made it legit.

And yeah, if this seems quite a convoluted reasoning, this is because of the convoluted rules. :P

Not that any of this matters, really. Because the new HPoH can simply use her gaseous form, now, since she has not the particular interest (or opportunities) to kill Roy that Durkula had, and thus she will turn to mist and float out of his reach (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html).

[rman]

but the priest changed mid-procedure, and is presumably about to fire her bodyguards. Let's say Macey does that immediately next strip.

If firing worked then why didn't the original Durkula(HPoH) fire Roy back a the beginning of the fight then ask for his removal. HPoH was already rules lawyering their way around.

From what we have seen
1) Aligned authorized Godsmoot parties are prohibited from attacking other aligned parties.
2) Aligned authorized Godsmoot parties may attack their own alignment.
3) Unaligned but authorized Godsmoot parties may be attacked. (Original HPoH on the Order to make them vampires).
4) No-unathorized parties were allowed to attend the Godsmoot.
5) Authorization to attend was given to the high priests, up to two bodyguards per high priest and a few attendants required to operate the godsmoot like the Order.

Note that Hel clearly violated #4 by using Vampirization to drop other souls inside the Godsmoot.
Also note that Roy is not likely to be ejected as the Cleric of Odin has orderd a lockdown until the vote is resolved.
Note again Hel has violated the lockdown rule.

As the godsmoot clearly did not have a rule about attendies attacking the non-aligned support members should Roy drop down to the catagory of "other" attendee he should still be free to attack the fHPoH.

For Roy to leave the Godsmoot there will have to be some action to remove the edict of the high priest which put the place on lockdown, or to get around it like Durkula did.

[Bravo]

Prediction: Belkar will show up. Roy and Belkar will move to attack Macey Shadows, but will be informed that Durkula was who they were bodyguards for and that if they attack Macey they will be in breach of the rules of the godsmoot and will be destroyed. Belkar will say "screw it", shank Macey with a crit, destroying her and sacrificing himself to save the world.

Or I could be completely wrong.

[PallentisLunam]

Prediction: Belkar will show up. Roy and Belkar will move to attack Macey Shadows, but will be informed that Durkula was who they were bodyguards for and that if they attack Macey they will be in breach of the rules of the godsmoot and will be destroyed. Belkar will say "screw it", shank Macey with a crit, destroying her and sacrificing himself to save the world.

Or I could be completely wrong.

You can't crit the undead.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, looks like things aren't getting any easier.

[Keltest]

If firing worked then why didn't the original Durkula(HPoH) fire Roy back a the beginning of the fight then ask for his removal. HPoH was already rules lawyering their way around.

From what we have seen
1) Aligned authorized Godsmoot parties are prohibited from attacking other aligned parties.
2) Aligned authorized Godsmoot parties may attack their own alignment.
3) Unaligned but authorized Godsmoot parties may be attacked. (Original HPoH on the Order to make them vampires).
4) No-unathorized parties were allowed to attend the Godsmoot.
5) Authorization to attend was given to the high priests, up to two bodyguards per high priest and a few attendants required to operate the godsmoot like the Order.

Note that Hel clearly violated #4 by using Vampirization to drop other souls inside the Godsmoot.
Also note that Roy is not likely to be ejected as the Cleric of Odin has orderd a lockdown until the vote is resolved.
Note again Hel has violated the lockdown rule.

As the godsmoot clearly did not have a rule about attendies attacking the non-aligned support members should Roy drop down to the catagory of "other" attendee he should still be free to attack the fHPoH.

For Roy to leave the Godsmoot there will have to be some action to remove the edict of the high priest which put the place on lockdown, or to get around it like Durkula did.

Durkon has flat out acknowledged that there were options available to him that would utterly neutralize Roy, he just wasn't taking them because he really wanted to beat the crap out of Roy. Likely this new vampire will take advantage of them, given she lacks any personal connection to Roy.

[Baphomet]

If firing worked then why didn't the original Durkula(HPoH) fire Roy back a the beginning of the fight then ask for his removal. HPoH was already rules lawyering their way around.


Good point. I guess it could make sense if fHPoH wanted to gloat or something but you're right, if that's how it worked he could have fired him then and had a bunch of other clerics helping him in the fight. I didn't think of that.

[Deliverance]

I don't know why you all worry about the bodyguard status of Roy.
He can attack HPOH and it would still be an internal church dispute (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html).

It was an internal church dispute precisely because Roy was the bodyguard to the high priest he attacked; It was fighting between two of the three members of team Hel allowed to the meeting - high priest + his two bodyguards.

But while Roy was the acknowledged bodyguard of Durkon, he is not the acknowledged bodyguard of the new high priestess, who, like all high priests, is allowed two bodyguards of her own. And it seems unlikely that she'll claim Roy for her bodyguard.

If he attacks the new high priestess, then it is not an internal church dispute as he is not one of Hel's three allowed people at the meeting currently. It is an attack by somebody without official status on the sanctioned representative of Hel.


Roy probably should be evicted from the Godsmoot now, but the ushers are otherwise occupied. On the positive side, Roy no longer having an official status affiliated with one of the high priests means that he will undoubtedly get to take advantage of the same loophole as Durkon, namely no longer being included under the "let all who have a formal role remain sequestered here, so as not to influence the outcome" ruling, which means he will be allowed to leave and take the Mechane, allowing him to arrive in the nick of time to save the day.

[Elenna]

Well, it could be worse? They could have taken Roy's sword with them while teleporting out...
Yeah, not much of a silver lining.

On the bright side (at least for me), it seems my prediction of "Hel will lose the vote but Durkula will escape to cause havoc in Dwarven lands" was correct. Granted it wasn't exactly a surprising twist, but getting things right is always nice.

[Renegade Paladin]

Evil Overlord List, #197: I will explain to my Legions of Terror that guns are ranged weapons and swords are not. Anyone who attempts to throw a sword at the hero or club him with a gun will be summarily executed. :smallamused:

Well, back to Plan A. Time to kill the Frontocrat.

[8BitNinja]

To counter the Evil Overlord list, The Black Knight threw his sword and it worked out very well

And don't forget Wesley threw his sword in the duel with Indigo Montoya

[Kish]

On the bright side (at least for me), it seems my prediction of "Hel will lose the vote but Phyrnglsnyx will escape to cause havoc in Dwarven lands" was correct. Granted it wasn't exactly a surprising twist, but getting things right is always nice.
Gloating is highly premature. The vote isn't over yet, whatever events that settle it on "No" you're considering as good as happened.

[Renegade Paladin]

To counter the Evil Overlord list, The Black Knight threw his sword and it worked out very well

And don't forget Wesley threw his sword in the duel with Indigo Montoya
The Black Knight was in a comedy and Westley didn't throw his sword at Inigo, but rather where he could get it after jumping down. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

But apparently Wesley (no T) threw his sword at Indigo Montoya--whoever they are.

[Jasdoif]

It has already been mentioned. When Roy was dead they talked about needing a 17th level cleric to bring him back without his body.Do keep in mind, the entire reason OotS is at the Godsmoot in the first place is because they haven't been able to find anyone else capable of casting resurrection on their behalf. If Roy gets killed at the Godsmoot over rules, the likelihood of him being resurrected (true or otherwise) by attendees of the Godsmoot is...rather slim.


When did Rich say he hates True Resurrection?A couple places:
And more to the point, True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.



Is there any particular part of the D&D 3e rules that "gets in the way" of your story more consistently than others? I mean, it doesn't really get in the way because it's swept aside the moment it becomes inconvenient, but I hope the question makes sense.True Resurrection, without a doubt. It's literally impossible for a mortal character to ever be completely out of the story because of its existence. Actually, all forms of resurrection are kind of a pain in the ass, though the other versions have roadblocks you can throw in the path. But because True Resurrection exists, every character death is met with, "Well, they could still come back!" forever.

[8BitNinja]

Westley didn't throw his sword at Inigo, but rather where he could get it after jumping down. :smalltongue:

Still kind of gave him a strategic advantage

[Canuck617]

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, but I'm wondering if Roy is still the HPoH's bodyguard. Maybe this was mentioned already. If so, I'll add something to this post.

[GM_3826]

It was an internal church dispute precisely because Roy was the bodyguard to the high priest he attacked; It was fighting between two of the three members of team Hel allowed to the meeting - high priest + his two bodyguards.

But while Roy was the acknowledged bodyguard of Durkon, he is not the acknowledged bodyguard of the new high priestess, who, like all high priests, is allowed two bodyguards of her own. And it seems unlikely that she'll claim Roy for her bodyguard.

If he attacks the new high priestess, then it is not an internal church dispute as he is not one of Hel's three allowed people at the meeting currently. It is an attack by somebody without official status on the sanctioned representative of Hel.


Roy probably should be evicted from the Godsmoot now, but the ushers are otherwise occupied. On the positive side, Roy no longer having an official status affiliated with one of the high priests means that he will undoubtedly get to take advantage of the same loophole as Durkon, namely no longer being included under the "let all who have a formal role remain sequestered here, so as not to influence the outcome" ruling, which means he will be allowed to leave and take the Mechane, allowing him to arrive in the nick of time to save the day.

I really have to wonder just how ironclad these rules are if Roy was under the impression that he was the bodyguard of a priest of Thor. I doubt allowing a hero to try and kill a villain who tricked them was their intention. All it does is tip the scales a little; These rules were meant to allow gods of all alignments to mingle without danger, and yet so far they have mostly benefited evil.

Roy should not have even been allowed in and the high priest of Hel is twisting the rules like mad. They make no sense and not everyone should be listening to them. Even if the ones who voted "no" fought back, it was on their god's decision and on their god's decision only. Not a single other thought "Why should we let Hel win?" I can understand why this might happen, since these are the high priests of those gods, but Hel is taking over the Pantheon and beings of both worlds are about to suffer because their gods, who are supposed to care about them (even if they are evil), said "**** it, I don't care WHO'S leading us in the new world." Why is everyone still supporting them? Even if dwarves do not care for their own lives, dwarves are supposed to be lawful and yet there are representatives for all gods here. There is no reason why all of them should conform to what their gods say and not make an intelligent decision. It's stupid. Even if the heroes always winning is boring, there is a much bigger threat who we should be devoting our attention to. Xykon threatens everyone, protagonists and antagonists included, and yet we are spending the day or two we have fighting off the vampire apocalypse. It is pointless padding. To be redundant; there is no reason for it.

[Nogster]

Durkon has flat out acknowledged that there were options available to him that would utterly neutralize Roy, he just wasn't taking them because he really wanted to beat the crap out of Roy. Likely this new vampire will take advantage of them, given she lacks any personal connection to Roy.

When was this? I see him specifically mention he could mist around and run out the clock in #1019 but nothing of him stating he could just get rid of Roy like a simple nuisance.

Guess the new HPOH has that same option.

[Jasdoif]

There is no reason why all of them should conform to what their gods say and not make an intelligent decision.Regardless of the intelligence involved in any decision, I find it supremely unlikely any active deity is going to have a high priest whose loyalty falls short of "unswerving".


Xykon threatens everyone, protagonists and antagonists included, and yet we are spending the day or two we have fighting off the vampire apocalypse. It is pointless padding. To be redundant; there is no reason for it.The destruction of the world triggered by "the vampire apocalypse" also threatens everyone. And, in fact, Xykon threatens them in the exact same way: Xykon's plan is to use the Snarl against his enemies...and even though he's mistaken on the matter, Redcloak's plan is to allow the Dark One to use the Snarl against his enemies. And destroying the world is the fallback if the last rift is opened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html)...and the Snarl isn't accessible without opening that last rift.

Now, Roy knows Xykon has to be stopped before he can finish with the Gate. There will be absolutely no opportunity to reverse whatever he accomplishes, because there will not be a world left to perform a reversal in.

[Breitheamh]

So... problem solved. Roy's status is still the same, he's the HPOH bodyguard. He can just go kill the new HPOH and the demigod vote becomes unnecessary as Hel's vote is removed.

Okay, seriously, just....real quick....I mean....

Does everyone who keeps saying this actually believe this? We could debate for hours whether or not the rules of the godsmoot allow that, but if we're being honest, we'd all be talking out of someone else's pet rat's ass.

The reason this will not happen is because that would be such an anticlimactic, almost slapstick way to end this.

:roy: HA! He totally missed this last loophole
nHPoH :smalleek: What?!?! AAARGH X-P (that's a dead face by the way)

The Order has a new mission now: stop Durkula before he destroys the world. It is a far more pressing concern than stopping Xykon at this point.

Edit: Ninja edited, but the sentiment remains.

[ti'esar]

Huh, so the reason the vampire formerly known as the High Priest of Hel wiped out the entire Creed of the Stone was just to take a chance on getting as many extra minions as luck would have it? That seems a bit odd, though I guess two extra vampires is better than none.

The fighting lasted for less time than I was expecting, but I can't say I'm surprised either.

The detail of the female dwarf vampire who was killed by crossbow bolts graying out is kind of cool. I guess that's what it looks like when they're staked in the OOTSverse.

[Wildroses]

That went great for Roy! Durkula has really screwed up!

No I'm serious. The existence of the prophecies about Durkon's returning home posthumously and bringing death and destruction to them all meant Roy never had any chance of stopping his getaway.

But Durkula told him he had the real Durkon's soul trapped inside his head! Now Roy knows he hasn't lost all hope of getting his friend back! It may take several hundred pages but he will regret that taunt, I'm sure.

[Bravo]

You can't crit the undead.
Wellll... yes you can, but not typically. It's not the point, though: point is, in this scenario, Belkar does SOMETHING to destroy her in one stroke before he is destroyed himself. The other vamps seemed to be dispatched quickly enough, so it's plausible.

[KorvinStarmast]

Truly, excessive intelligence and the ability for the analysis of complex situations is just a source of unnecessary nuisance and stress.
Low intelligence must be the key to long life.
Knowledge is power ... but ... Ignorance is bliss.


Personally, I just look forward to Belkar finally coming back up the mountain, ready to save the day and get into an argument with Roy, only to find the battle over and Roy conceding that Belkar was right all along. It should make for a funny moment. :smallbiggrin:
One hopes that is the topic of the next strip ...


So what now? Does the Order detour to stop Durkula? Or do they continue to Kraagor's? Either way, it seems like the fulfillment of an end of the world scenario. :smallfrown:

And: Where's Belkar?

They have to go after Durkula. If his plan succeeds, world ends, Snarl issue with Xykon rendered irrelevant.

[GM_3826]

Regardless of the intelligence involved in any decision, I find it supremely unlikely any active deity is going to have a high priest whose loyalty falls short of "unswerving".

The destruction of the world triggered by "the vampire apocalypse" also threatens everyone. And, in fact, Xykon threatens them in the exact same way: Xykon's plan is to use the Snarl against his enemies...and even though he's mistaken on the matter, Redcloak's plan is to allow the Dark One to use the Snarl against his enemies. And destroying the world is the fallback if the last rift is opened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html)...and the Snarl isn't accessible without opening that last rift.

Now, Roy knows Xykon has to be stopped before he can finish with the Gate. There will be absolutely no opportunity to reverse whatever he accomplishes, because there will not be a world left to perform a reversal in.

Did I ever deny any of this was true?

OK, starting with the second point. You are completely misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not talking about in-universe reasons, I am asking why it is necessary that Durkula to take away the story from the main villain to a point that we have not seen yet. This has happened a million times before, and I would not have a problem with it if it were not for the fact that a. Tarquin already said that was a no-no, and b. the Snarl's rise is a climax that we have been building up for years on end, with no visible indication that it was going to be accentuated by the vampire apocalypse. They are linked, sure, but unless Hel and the Dark One have been plotting this the entire time, it's loosely, and despite the comic having built up to them for years we have not seen Xykon or Redcloak at all. (Even that would not be much of a problem if we were supposed to have the time for such a road bump in the first place.)

As for the high priest's feelings, yes, their faith should be unswerving, but this is D&D. Every one of these clerics has a high Wisdom score. Where is that? Why are they not using it? Are Good Clerics not supposed to be paragons who wouldn't let someone take over the throne without reason? And even if Evil can love, Lawful Evil heaven is explicitly a heaven for it's inhabitants because it is a place where backstabbing jerks can thrive. Why should a High Priest with an evil god always listen to them?

[otakuryoga]

We need a smiley of Roy's face in the last panel.

forget that...we need a smiley of his face in panel 6

[Keltest]

Why should a High Priest with an evil god always listen to them?

Because without being in their good graces, they don't get any class features besides equipment usage?

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, personally, I'm ready for the Moot thing to be over.

I'm ready for a vampire chase through dwarven lands, hopefully with a mammoth ride somewhere along the way. :smallwink:

I'm ready to meet Durkon's mom and find out what the secret is with his dad.

I'm ready to see the team back together, minus Durkon unfortunately, for some adventuring.

So I say -- let's drink a toast to complex rules and loopholes, if they will prevent the priests from intervening to solve things, and get Roy out of here without another anti-vampire slugfest! :smallsmile:

(Though as I pointed out, the anti-apocalypse High Priests do have a means to directly intervene without violating the Moot's rules, and stop Hel's nefarious plan with Durkon. They have a party of high-level adventurers with an airship they can send specifically to intervene. And in fact, those adventurers are the focus of the story, and are well known and hopefully liked by us -- so what better solution is there than to use them as anti-Lurky commandos?)

[rodneyAnonymous]

You can't crit the undead.

This may seem like splitting hairs, but yes you can, undead just don't take extra damage from critical hits.

[Kish]

Did I ever deny any of this was true?

OK, starting with the second point. You are completely misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not talking about in-universe reasons, I am asking why it is necessary that [...] to take away the story from the main villain to a point that we have not seen yet.
Because the author chooses to write it.

This has happened a million times before, and I would not have a problem with it if it were not for the fact that a. Tarquin already said that was a no-no, and b. the Snarl's rise is a climax that we have been building up for years on end, with no visible indication that it was going to be accentuated by the vampire apocalypse.

a. You are apparently under the impression Tarquin--Tarquin of all people--was supposed to be speaking for the author. If Tarquin says something it's a fairly safe bet Rich Burlew wants you to think what Tarquin just said is wrong.
b. You point out a counterexample to your "no visible indication" claim by bringing him up, however. We just finished a book where the main villain was a "side villain," Tarquin. The comic is about the Order of the Stick's saving the world. It's not about "the Snarl's rise" in the way you apparently want it to be, nor has it ever been indicated to be.


They are linked, sure, but unless Hel and the Dark One have been plotting this the entire time, it's loosely, and despite the comic having built up to them for years we have not seen Xykon or Redcloak at all. (Even that would not be much of a problem if we were supposed to have the time for such a road bump in the first place.)

What's that even supposed to mean? First off, there is no "we." You're neither part of the Order of the Stick nor part of Rich's writing team. I defy you to point to anywhere in the comic where it actually says "the world will end if the Order doesn't immediately go non-stop to Kraagor's Gate."

Watsonianly, Hel has a scheme to end the world which takes precedence over Xykon's scheme because she'll finish it sooner, so it needs to be stopped first. Doylistically, the High Priest of Hel is the villain of the current book's main story arc. Xykon is the villain of the overarching plot, yes, but that doesn't guarantee him more page time in any individual book than the brief appearance he put in in Blood Runs in the Family, and it certainly doesn't imply that other villains--villains who have plans that will render Xykon irrelevant if they succeed--will stay out of the Order's way because some of the comic's readers got the impression they were reading a comic which had one plot and a lot of weird meaningless filler, rather than a comic which had a number of plots.


As for the high priest's feelings, yes, their faith should be unswerving, but this is D&D. Every one of these clerics has a high Wisdom score. Where is that? Why are they not using it? Are Good Clerics not supposed to be paragons who wouldn't let someone take over the throne without reason? And even if Evil can love, Lawful Evil heaven is explicitly a heaven for it's inhabitants because it is a place where backstabbing jerks can thrive. Why should a High Priest with an evil god always listen to them?
Could you make up your mind whether your claim is that all the priests, being mortals, should disregard their faith and act to preserve their lives, or that the good and neutral priests, being paragons, should disregard the rules and act to smite the evil in front of them while the evil priests, being evil, should suddenly discover they have no actual loyalty to their gods? Because it's looking like this is more about "why is this storyline I don't like not getting swept out of my way, characterization be damned!" than actual problems with the characterization of the high priests.

[Jasdoif]

I'm not talking about in-universe reasons, I am asking why it is necessary that Durkula to take away the story from the main villain to a point that we have not seen yet.Well that seems simple enough. We've had more character discovery/development devoted to Durkon now than we had while he was alive, which is almost certainly going to be more significant than any plot developments. And on the subject of plot developments, Xykon's expecting the Gate stuff to take a few weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html), so this is a way to add time pressure back into thing; and if it turns out HPoH has a backup plan of going after the last Gate anyway, we could get back to Xykon without even needing a pause.


As for the high priest's feelings, yes, their faith should be unswerving, but this is D&D. Every one of these clerics has a high Wisdom score. Where is that? Why are they not using it? Are Good Clerics not supposed to be paragons who wouldn't let someone take over the throne without reason? And even if Evil can love, Lawful Evil heaven is explicitly a heaven for it's inhabitants because it is a place where backstabbing jerks can thrive. Why should a High Priest with an evil god always listen to them?So...you say their faith should be unswerving, while at the same time you have a problem with it being unswerving?

[Basement Cat]

Throwing my two cents in on the debate whether Roy still qualifies as bodyguard for the HPoH 2.0 version: We don't know. Rich hasn't revealed the pertinent details so we don't know if Roy's being bodyguard to Durkula automatically transfers over to the nHPoH.

Given Durkula's supreme indifference to the nHPoH's well being I figure either the bodyguard status doesn't automatically transfer or it's a moot point because the nHPoH can simply go into gaseous form indefinitely.

On a separate but connected point: If the HP of Odin declares that Roy isn't welcome any more because of the change of HP's then Veldrina--who only has Wrecan as a bodyguard--can simply claim Roy as her second bodyguard.

:roy: "But that would make it against the rules for me to attack the HPoH."

Oh...right...nevermind that idea. :redface:

It's Belkar whom I want to see. In light of the fact that he would require a Protection from Sunlight spell to survive being turned into a vampire during the day then I figure he's safe from being turned into the living dead by that oger/whatever vampire we last saw approaching him.

Even though he only has a few weeks left (in-universe) before the Oracle's prophecy of his doom comes true we've just seen Rich drag out a couple of days (literally---just two days) in universe over six or more RT months, and given that Rich has said that there are two more books due before the story ends Belkar should emerge from this whole ordeal with his sexy and shoeless self intact.

[Pyrous]

I'm not talking about in-universe reasons, I am asking why it is necessary that Durkula to take away the story from the main villain to a point that we have not seen yet.

Because the comic is the Order of the Stick, not Greenhilt vs Lich (nor Greenhilt vs vampire for that matter).


This has happened a million times before, and I would not have a problem with it if it were not for the fact that a. Tarquin already said that was a no-no

Tarquin thinks he's the main villain of the comic.


, and b. the Snarl's rise is a climax that we have been building up for years on end, with no visible indication that it was going to be accentuated by the vampire apocalypse.

This whole Godsmoot thing is the indication in question.


They are linked, sure, but unless Hel and the Dark One have been plotting this the entire time, it's loosely, and despite the comic having built up to them for years we have not seen Xykon or Redcloak at all. (Even that would not be much of a problem if we were supposed to have the time for such a road bump in the first place.)


We don't need to see Xykon or Redcloak until they do something plot relevant. As I said the comic is the Order of the Stick, and the Order of the Stick is going to prevent the Vampocalypse now, because it has the potential to destroy the world faster than whatever Xykon's plan is.

[Fincher]

Unless I missed it, my prediction hasn't been raised:

Roy is the new HPoH's bodyguard, she turns to mist and can't be attacked, he has to stay because of the barrier and the rules that necessitate it, so Belkar and the others go to the dwarven lands without him. It makes Belkar being outside of the meeting hall particularly relevant.

[brian 333]

Another excellent comic.

I'm thinking Miss Macey's next act should be to confirm that Roy and Belkar are not her bodyguards and have them tossed out of the temple.

[Kish]

On a separate but connected point: If the HP of Odin declares that Roy isn't welcome any more because of the change of HP's then Veldrina--who only has Wrecan as a bodyguard--can simply claim Roy as her second bodyguard.

:roy: "But that would make it against the rules for me to attack the HPoH."

Oh...right...nevermind that idea. :redface:
Also, if a priest can switch around bodyguards at will after declaring who's coming in with them, I'd expect the former High Priest of Hel to have responded to Roy's attack with, "You're fired!"

To be clear, I think Roy is not the new High Priest of Hel's bodyguard. Either she can appoint two vampires her bodyguards if any survive, or having become the High Priest already in the temple locks her at "bodyguards waived for the duration of this Godsmoot."

[JoeyTheNeko]

sounds like roy and the others next stop is the dwarven lands.

where is belkar? he still fighting that door vampire?

[Pyrous]

where is belkar? he still fighting that door vampire?

That, or he is upstairs grabbing his daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html).

[8BitNinja]

So when they were sitting in a city full of paladins, they couldn't get one person to join the party for a convenient moment like this? Evil undead, perfect pally targets

[Metahuman1]

Ya know, this story arc is proving an excellent argument for heavy duty optimization.


Why? Cause it's maidenly frustrating and annoying, and is only just barely sufferable in the current medium with the good will the series had built previously. In an actual table top game it would be rage quit insufferable if it went past one session start middle end.


And in an actual session, this level of optimization, which is not optimized at all, would allow for it to just keep dragging.



Were as a properly optimized character could have ended this before now.

[Kish]

^ You know what the current arc is providing an even better argument for? D&D being bad. Since if anything significantly opposes your character it's apparently a reason to rage about the fact that you don't have the ability to bat it out of the way, and if nothing ever does the result is a game about as much fun as watching paint dry.

So when they were sitting in a city full of paladins, they couldn't get one person to join the party for a convenient moment like this? Evil undead, perfect pally targets
1) Azure City was not a city full of paladins.
2) The paladin order who dwelled in Azure City were oathbound to guard the Sapphire.
3) No paladin could have joined a group that included Belkar without falling.
4) If there was a paladin here, what do you suppose they would do that Roy couldn't do? Neither "Automatically Destroy High-Level Undead" or "Ignore Antilife Shell" is actually on the paladin class spell list.

[Keltest]

What's that even supposed to mean? First off, there is no "we." You're neither part of the Order of the Stick nor part of Rich's writing team. I defy you to point to anywhere in the comic where it actually says "the world will end if the Order doesn't immediately go non-stop to Kraagor's Gate."

Pretty sure Rich said in the commentary for BRITF that he deliberately put the Order on a timer specifically to create this sense of urgency.

[Porthos]

Ya know, this story arc is proving an excellent argument for heavy duty optimization.


Why? Cause it's maidenly frustrating and annoying, and is only just barely sufferable in the current medium with the good will the series had built previously.

Sez you. :smallsmile: Personally, I've found this to be one of the best arcs to date. :smallwink:


In an actual table top game it would be rage quit insufferable if it went past one session start middle end.


And in an actual session, this level of optimization, which is not optimized at all, would allow for it to just keep dragging.



Were as a properly optimized character could have ended this before now.

I was a part of FAR more frustrating, game-altering campaigns than this one being depicted without rage-quiting.

And, really, "properly optimized"? I thought that argument was settled in regards to OotS around 2005 or so. :smalltongue:

[goodpeople25]

So when they were sitting in a city full of paladins, they couldn't get one person to join the party for a convenient moment like this? Evil undead, perfect pally targets
That was pretty much stated in comic already, they had good reasons not to bring paladins to Girard's gate (regardless of the Girard clan's demise) and they already sent the 2 paladins ahead to Kraggor's the next objective after Girard's and the events leading up to this point were hardly predictable. And having a paladin (most likely Lien due to razor) go alone to Kraggor's is unwise (the buddy system is taught to children for a reason) while the other is expected to just be backup, so having the paladins go together makes the most sense.
And besides Hinjo that is the entirety of the available paladins. And he too has good reason to remain at the colony.

[Drynwyn]

If Wrecan kills Veldrina, this issue is resolved, or at least forced to yet another tiebreaker. She's the representative of the Yes-voting Western Pantheon, and their Yes vote no longer counts if she's dead- all that would be left is the No vote of the Southern Pantheon and the undecided vote of Odin's Pantheon.

Wrecan could even get her resurrected later.

[goodpeople25]

If Wrecan kills Veldrina, this issue is resolved, or at least forced to yet another tiebreaker. She's the representative of the Yes-voting Western Pantheon, and their Yes vote no longer counts if she's dead- all that would be left is the No vote of the Southern Pantheon and the undecided vote of Odin's Pantheon.

Wrecan could even get her resurrected later.
If i shoot my screen will your post disappear?
I seriously doubt killing Vel would accomplish anything, well besides killing off a cameo with the representation of the late Wrecan.

[Pyrous]

Ya know, this story arc is proving an excellent argument for heavy duty optimization.


Why? Cause it's maidenly frustrating and annoying, and is only just barely sufferable in the current medium with the good will the series had built previously. In an actual table top game it would be rage quit insufferable if it went past one session start middle end.


And in an actual session, this level of optimization, which is not optimized at all, would allow for it to just keep dragging.



Were as a properly optimized character could have ended this before now.

Huh.

I thought that this arc was pointing out how frustrating and annoying it is to play with a rules lawyer.

[Drynwyn]

If i shoot my screen will your post disappear?
I seriously doubt killing Vel would accomplish anything, well besides killing off a cameo with the representation of the late Wrecan.

By the established rules of the Godsmoot, all indications are that it would accomplish something- at worst, it would force Hel to find a way to rig another tiebreaker in her favor (no idea what the Godsmoot procedure is for two pantheons voted and disagreed, and one pantheon didn't, as that hasn't been addressed). At best, it would resolve the issue instantly.

Obviously a scene in which Wrecan killed Veldrina would veer towards tearful, but that's hardly a bad thing.

[ti'esar]

By the established rules of the Godsmoot, all indications are that it would accomplish something- at worst, it would force Hel to find a way to rig another tiebreaker in her favor (no idea what the Godsmoot procedure is for two pantheons voted and disagreed, and one pantheon didn't, as that hasn't been addressed). At best, it would resolve the issue instantly.

Obviously a scene in which Wrecan killed Veldrina would veer towards tearful, but that's hardly a bad thing.

I'll need the banana to provide the exact link, but Rich has already stated in no uncertain terms that he's not going to have a character who was invented as a tribute to an actual real-life deceased forum regular (http://www.giantitp.com/index.html#6eam4vhlOtdyflgooaB) be portrayed as a cold-blooded murderer (even to save the world).

But honestly, I'm not sure why even people who aren't familiar with Wrecan's origins would be expecting this. OOTS has had some dark moments, but it's generally not the sort of story where the author looks at it and goes "Hmm, what's the most depressing resolution I can come up with here for this particular plot point?"

[Ganbatte]

If i shoot my screen will your post disappear?
I seriously doubt killing Vel would accomplish anything, well besides killing off a cameo with the representation of the late Wrecan.

Huh, who cares? :smallconfused:
Actually removing Veldrina would be a very good way to solve the problem, and she seems decent enough of a character (and not bound to lawful-stupid alignments) to maybe accept that herself for the benefit of the world.

[goodpeople25]

Huh, who cares? :smallconfused:
Actually removing Veldrina would be a very good way to solve the problem, and she seems decent enough of a character (and not bound to lawful-stupid alignments) to maybe accept that herself for the benefit of the world.
It's a example, my screen is just showing me his post through the Internet. just like it appears Vel is just showing the northern moot the results of the western vote. And as destroying my device would do nothing to his post, i doubt Vel getting killed would do anything to the votes.

[Drynwyn]

It's a example, my screen is just showing me his post through the Internet. just like it appears Vel is just showing the northern moot the results of the western vote. And as destroying my device would do nothing to his post, i doubt Vel getting killed would do anything to the votes.

Except that it's been established that for votes to count, deities must have a living (or unliving) representative physically present at the Godsmoot for their votes to count. This presumably extends to the pantheons, who are simply a group of deities sharing a single representative.

[Breccia]

When I said last thread that I didn't think this fight would last very long, this is not at all what I meant.

Who knows what foul deeds Durkula and the Nosferocktu have in mind, wherever the Hel they're going. It's a shame they can't arrive just in the nick of time to thwart oooooooooooooooh right, it's parked outside.

Meter's running, Roy.

[goodpeople25]

Except that it's been established that for votes to count, deities must have a living (or unliving) representative physically present at the Godsmoot for their votes to count. This presumably extends to the pantheons, who are simply a group of deities sharing a single representative.
Yeah but those votes have already been concluded, to use an anolagy it has already been posted while the Northern moot is still being edited. Now yes it's possible it could work as you said but i don't find it likely, and as said it will NOT happen anyway.

[Jasdoif]

I'll need the banana to provide the exact link, but Rich has already stated in no uncertain terms that he's not going to have a character who was invented as a tribute to an actual real-life deceased forum regular (http://www.giantitp.com/index.html#6eam4vhlOtdyflgooaB) be portrayed as a cold-blooded murderer (even to save the world).Indeed...and seeing as a thread on the subject was locked, giving the topic a wide berth seems prudent.

[Drynwyn]

Well, there's that theory shot down, then.

[NeeL]

I'm pretty sure Rich has said he's expecting the story to go for two more books after BRitF, so this isn't the Order's final arc anyway.

Ah, don't know where I got the idea from then. In that case, let's make it:


So, time for Wrecan to sacrifice himself and kill the new representative of Hell so that Roy doesn't have to die to end this voting thing and the OOTS can go heads deep in their next story arc. Either a confrontation with Xykon for the last gate or the diminishing of a dwarven vampire army. Hopefully both. Yay!!!

I still think the straightforward way to end it is for someone (preferable non-OOTS) to sacrifice him/herself by killing a representative of a Yes-voter. However, after that, everyone who is prepared to die for his/her god('s vote) can then attempt to do the same. Especially if this god already voted to end your world.

[Kish]

Given that you're prepared to accept the next plot arc being Roy going after the vampires, I'm not at all sure why you're assuming removing all the pressure to go after the vampires first is either necessary or desirable.

My prediction is: The vote stays in its current deadlocked state for now, Roy finds a way to leave the hall without going through the arches, Roy and the rest of the Order (less Durkon) go after the former High Priest of Hel to destroy him before he can dominate the dwarven elders and destroy the world.

[homeslice]

It would seem the most likely next step would be for the new Priest of Hel to fire Roy and have him kicked out.

The chamber has been sealed (even though that didn't quite work). How exactly do they kick Roy out if no one is allowed to leave? I mean I guess they could just make an exception, but I feel like this group is more likely to stick to the letter of the law. However, I'm not sure what other option that would leave this group.

hrm...

[NeeL]

Given that you're prepared to accept the next plot arc being Roy going after the vampires, I'm not at all sure why you're assuming removing all the pressure to go after the vampires first is either necessary or desirable.

My prediction is: The vote stays in its current deadlocked state for now, Roy finds a way to leave the hall without going through the arches, Roy and the rest of the Order (less Durkon) go after the former High Priest of Hel to destroy him before he can dominate the dwarven elders and destroy the world.

Well you know how this goes, you want to get to Xykon, but run into a herd of dwarven vampires, or the other way around. It feels like they never encounter what they where expecting anyway. These two issues are now what we've got to be solved in the near future, and there is the deadlocked vote which can at this point be ended with one swing of Roys sword.

I agree that priority-wise, preventing the world from being destroyed is probably higher on the agenda as preventing the worst that can come from the vampires, apart from the vote. But from that point of view, the best reason for Roy NOT to kill the new HPoH now is that it doesn't stop Xykon from destroying the world, and he wants to come out of this alive to stop Xykon as well. That, and his moral compass on dishonouring about all gods at the same time, together with the idea that no cleric would want to raise him after his intervention, maybe.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[KyrtFurey]

[QUOTE=Basement Cat;20315214]Throwing my two cents in on the debate whether Roy still qualifies as bodyguard for the HPoH 2.0 version: We don't know. Rich hasn't revealed the pertinent details so we don't know if Roy's being bodyguard to Durkula automatically transfers over to the nHPoH. [/quote[]

I wouldn't think so. It'd be too easy an out and would render Durkulas leaving to dominate the Dwarven Council moot. Durkula has to think the new HP will survive until the new vote is held.

So - as you say, either Roy is no longer a bodyguard and therefore open to attack as he is now bound by the protection clause.....or the new HP has a way to survive, maybe by turning to mist for a couple of days.

That is, of course, assuming that Hels plan to destroy the world IS her plan. This was a last minute opportunity strike for her, so she may have had something else in motion before that she now thinks is better.

[KyrtFurey]

Except that it's been established that for votes to count, deities must have a living (or unliving) representative physically present at the Godsmoot for their votes to count. This presumably extends to the pantheons, who are simply a group of deities sharing a single representative.

Has it? I thought Roy just assumed it. Yes, Durkula needed to leave a HP, but that could just be a result of the HP can't leave rule.

It seems likely given what's occurred, but it is known for definite?

[Deliverance]

My prediction is: The vote stays in its current deadlocked state for now, Roy finds a way to leave the hall without going through the arches, Roy and the rest of the Order (less Durkon) go after the former High Priest of Hel to destroy him before he can dominate the dwarven elders and destroy the world.
It is possible that he might be able to just walk through the arches.

Given that a situation such as this has probably never come up before and it is unlikely in the extreme that a case of a high priest resigning his position at the moot has been contemplated, and given the rapidity with which events have overtaken them, it is entirely likely that nobody has thought of what status Roy has now.

Assuming that he's not the new HPoH's bodyguard, and I see no reason for her appointing him to that job (if it is even possible to appoint bodyguards after being admitted) and good reason for Roy being able to argue that he is not if pressed (he's a smart guy), Roy is no longer the bodyguard to a high priest, has no formal role in the proceedings and should be allowed to leave by the rules. (It could even be argued that he should be made to leave, not having a valid reason for being present.)

HPoOdin clearly states: Let all who have a formal role remain sequestered here, so as not to influence the outcome. No attendee shall pass through the arches until this issue is resolved. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html)

So one way or another, I don't think Roy will have great problems leaving. If nothing else, he can point out that this is what Hel is taking advantage of by having her former high priest leaving not violating the rules, so it should also apply to said former high priest's bodyguard. Cue all the high priests saying that they never thought of that but it sounds reasonable (or whatever).

[ufis]

Edit: Hold on, don't you need to use the same spell to counterspell? How can a Cleric of Hel have a Thor-specific spell to counter with?

Maybe he had 2 untapped islands?

[Ruck]

And, really, "properly optimized"? I thought that argument was settled in regards to OotS around 2005 or so. :smalltongue:

Seriously. I'm sure there's a Giant comment on it somewhere, but I couldn't find it. This is a story about flawed and complex characters, not an attempt to munchkin through a campaign setting.

That aside, I'm pretty excited for what seems to be a shift to a new setting-- not that I was bored with the pacing, but since it became clear Durkula and Gonteratu were going to teleport out of there, I've wanted to know how their plan would succeed or fail / how the Order would eventually stop Hel.

I'm also ready to see Belkar in action again; his character development has made him possibly my favorite part of this book-- because his concern over Durkula comes from the very real place that Durkon saved his life and he owes his teammate, not an attitude your typical Chaotic Evil adventurer would have. Rock on, little buddy!

[Fincher]

Assuming that he's not the new HPoH's bodyguard, and I see no reason for her appointing him to that job (if it is even possible to appoint bodyguards after being admitted)

She might appoint him (or rather, claim that he remained her bodyguard when the high priesthood transferred) precisely to keep him trapped there so he can't interfere with the other vampires.

[ORione]

What race is the vampire who escaped with Durkula, Gontorpire, and the vampire who shattered the orb? He's short, shoed, beardless, and hatless.


Ya know, this story arc is proving an excellent argument for heavy duty optimization.

Why? Cause it's maidenly frustrating and annoying...

I mean, I find optimization frustrating and annoying too, but I don't see what that has to do with anything.
Oh, wait, you meant the Godsmoot.

[Fincher]

What race is the vampire who escaped with Durkula, Gontorpire, and the vampire who shattered the orb? He's short, shoed, beardless, and hatless.

Maybe a young dwarf? He's the right height.

[talkamancer]

Just noticed Durkular waving bye bye. A lovely touch.

[hroþila]

Aww, I just noticed that Durkon got to keep his first two buddies with him. Ain't that sweet.
edit: No, wait, I totally thought that dwarf girl was the same usher who almost interrupted Durkon when he was having fun with Belkar. My bad. That first usher actually snuffs it in panel 2 of the current strip, when she was just about to make it. A pity, those arrows.

Except that it's been established that for votes to count, deities must have a living (or unliving) representative physically present at the Godsmoot for their votes to count. This presumably extends to the pantheons, who are simply a group of deities sharing a single representative.
You and everyone else who has ever brought up the possibility of Wrecan offing Veldrina are seriously misunderstanding the process here. The Western Pantheon has already voted, and so has the Southern Pantheon. Their votes are final and immutable. Veldrina is not here to vote, but to relay the vote of her Western colleagues. The vote of these demigods is not a tiebreaker for the general, pan-pantheonic vote, but specifically for the Northern Pantheon. Therefore, Veldrina has nothing to do with it.

So it's not just that it'd be in bad taste and/or too dark for OotS; on top of that, it wouldn't even work.

[Nightcanon]

(snip)
I am asking why it is necessary that Durkula to take away the story from the main villain to a point that we have not seen yet. This has happened a million times before, and I would not have a problem with it if it were not for the fact that a. Tarquin already said that was a no-no, and b. the Snarl's rise is a climax that we have been building up for years on end, with no visible indication that it was going to be accentuated by the vampire apocalypse. They are linked, sure, but unless Hel and the Dark One have been plotting this the entire time, it's loosely, and despite the comic having built up to them for years we have not seen Xykon or Redcloak at all. (Even that would not be much of a problem if we were supposed to have the time for such a road bump in the first place.) [emphasis mine]

Rich has specifically said that the plot as currently unfolding is the plot as intended, and is not being 'derailed' or 'taken away' from where it should be going. Xykon and Redcloak have gone to the last gate, where they must conquer the various monsters Serini put there to guard it and then spend several weeks performing the ritual that will assume control of the Gate. That conveniently gives the Order the time required to follow this plot arc (which is the story of Durkon) before arriving in the nick of time on their airship that always does just that. Tarquin's opinions on the matter are of less relevance than those of the dirt farmers in book two: he's been shown to be crazy on the subject of narrative determinism and was last seen ranting and raving because he was unable to bend the story to his insistence that Elan should be the leader of the group that saves the world. Sometimes I think his utterances are there specifically to tweak the noses of those who insist that Rich's story should be written in exactly the way they insist it should be.

[Idiotic_Bird]

Xykon and Redcloak have gone to the last gate, where they must conquer the various monsters Serini put there to guard it and then spend several weeks performing the ritual that will assume control of the Gate. That conveniently gives the Order the time required to follow this plot arc (which is the story of Durkon) before arriving in the nick of time on their airship that always does just that.
And don't forget that the paladin's assumedly went to Kraagor's gate. They split up with OotS... somewhere...right? Dammit.

[ti'esar]

Maybe a young dwarf? He's the right height.

That's a female dwarf. You can see her a bit more clearly in the last panel of 1017.

[Nightcanon]

On the question of Roy's status as bodyguard, I would have thought that the optimum position for the Church of Hel, if it could be made to work, would be for the new Frontarch to declare that Roy is indeed her bodyguard, while maintaining a situation that prevents him from attacking her (the aforementioned 'turning into gaseous form and wafting around near the ceiling' being an obvious choice), and trying to wangle the situation such that Roy was unable to leave. This would of course depend on Roy being unable to resign from the post of his own volition, which may or may not be provided for in the rules. Either way, I don't think it is going to happen: the next stage of the story is pretty obviously going to be the Order chasing Durkula and co to the Dwarven Lands to try to prevent the destruction of the world, and to rescue Durkon's soul from the vampire, and it's highly unlikely that Roy isn't going to be a major part of that. Whether Roy (or Belkar) manages to dust the Frontarch before leaving is almost a moot point: if Durkula succeeds in swaying the vote of the Dwarven Council, he'll likely be in a position to return to the Godsmoot as the newly re-appointed Frontarch, come to replace his murdered predecessor, to take back custodianship of Hel's already-cast vote, if required. The Order's need to pursue Durkula is motivated as much by the quest for Durkon's soul as it is for the future of the world at this point, I think.

[Bulldog Psion]

What race is the vampire who escaped with Durkula, Gontorpire, and the vampire who shattered the orb? He's short, shoed, beardless, and hatless.

'He' is a lady dwarf. You can see her first appearance on the second page here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html

Interesting that she seemed to have a cheerful personality while alive, and after being vamped, she's still smiling -- just an evil smile now.

[Roderick_BR]

VampDurkon is wicked smart. He handed the orb to a minion to activate it so he could standby to protect his group, like dispelling that lightning bolt.

[Sir_Norbert]

'He' is a lady dwarf. You can see her first appearance on the second page here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html

Interesting that she seemed to have a cheerful personality while alive, and after being vamped, she's still smiling -- just an evil smile now.

I can see that that's the same character, but what makes you think it's female?

[Emperordaniel]

I can see that that's the same character, but what makes you think it's female?

Take a look at the rounded model used for her body, and then compare it with the rigid and cornered model used for, say, Gontor's body.

[IDrankWHAT]

I have a small theory(and question) on what's going to happen next.

Because the clerics of all Gods (Good and Evil) know what's going on now, I believe that the powers that be, (for Good anyway) will not allow the dwarves vote, because it is not of their free will.

So, that is my question: WILL they be allowed to cast their vote because it isn't of their free will that they cast?

[Kish]

^I think a theory which amounts to "the actions of the heroes will prove irrelevant, the villain's scheme was never an actual threat" is unlikely to be realized.

Oooo. Wonderful as always, Giant.

Edit: Hold on, don't you need to use the same spell to counterspell? How can a Cleric of Hel have a Thor-specific spell to counter with?
Don't know if anyone gave this a serious answer...

Counterspelling Thor's Lightning with Thor's Lightning is one option, but you can try to counterspell anything with Dispel Magic.

[Cizak]

I can see that that's the same character, but what makes you think it's female?

Not to go down the "only women have boobs" route, but... boobs. Plus the rounded body shape mostly used for females.

[Pyrous]

Not to go down the "only women have boobs" route, but... boobs. Plus the rounded body shape mostly used for females.

Also she has the height of a dwarf and doesn't have a beard. Compare with young Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html) and his cousin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html).

[Sybarith]

I get that long-winded overanalysis is kind of this forum's thing, (the comic updates slowly so this is pretty unsurprising) but I'm not sure why everyone's so annoyed by the characters' mistakes. Not everyone has to use common sense at all times, and the comic is filled with examples of characters being selectively brilliant one minute and then absolutely moronic the next. It's a bit weird that a whole room of High Priests could act braindead for a few minutes, but the plot demanded it so that's what we got. It's not a big deal or atypical of what we've seen so far.

[Bulldog Psion]

Not to go down the "only women have boobs" route, but... boobs. Plus the rounded body shape mostly used for females.

Yes -- her body type is basically identical to Durkon's mother, actually.

Plus, as someone else noted, young male dwarves have stubbly facial hair from birth, apparently.

To tell you the truth, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that anyone could look at her and not think she's a woman... :smallconfused:

[hoplathemightly]

I can definitely see Belkar returning to the main chamber of the Godsmoot and exacting sweet re-death on the nHPoH. Thereby suddenly and violently removing any support the Order might get from all those juicy high level clerics. It'd be too easy to say they can't help because they can't leave. But a Belkar style slaying and flaying of the rules due to lack of knowledge would be sweet. That's just a little prediction.

[kaoskonfety]

I get that long-winded overanalysis is kind of this forum's thing, (the comic updates slowly so this is pretty unsurprising) but I'm not sure why everyone's so annoyed by the characters' mistakes. Not everyone has to use common sense at all times, and the comic is filled with examples of characters being selectively brilliant one minute and then absolutely moronic the next. It's a bit weird that a whole room of High Priests could act braindead for a few minutes, but the plot demanded it so that's what we got. It's not a big deal or atypical of what we've seen so far.

"a few minutes"?
A round, or rather most of a round. Possibly part of 2 rounds? Generously 12 seconds with the High Priest of Thor rolling poorly on their initiative as the poor mans held action or very well and going early in the second. Odin's High priest looked pretty shocked back there a couple comics back so this whole "vampires running past" event being, mechanically, a surprise round and the top of the following round would not be in anyway shocking. It would also neatly explain why several priests are not shown doing anything productive, they are too busy picking their jaws off the floor.

[8BitNinja]

Well, I walked in on an interesting conversation about females, that was interesting

But anyway, does any priest know a miracle spell here? they could just ask to de-vampirize Durkon, and I know that Lawful Good or Any-Good deities would answer that prayer

[Breitheamh]

Well, I walked in on an interesting conversation about females, that was interesting

But anyway, does any priest know a miracle spell here? they could just ask to de-vampirize Durkon, and I know that Lawful Good or Any-Good deities would answer that prayer

I'm sure that any of the Good deities would love to help out with that, but there's a particular Evil deity whose will they would have to contend with. Deities can do a lot of things, but controlling other deities is generally nearly impossible for them, as it is for anyone. An act like that could very easily cause another Snarl-forming god-war.

They would have no problems if Durkula was just an average vampire with no goddess paying very close attention to his well-being.

[kaoskonfety]

But anyway, does any priest know a miracle spell here? they could just ask to de-vampirize Durkon, and I know that Lawful Good or Any-Good deities would answer that prayer

This would likely be a case where the unwilling target gets a save, at the very least.

It's also been pointed out that there are a total number of priests who have 9th level spells world wide that lands in the small single digits (like 1 confirmed, and zero with 7th level slots found after non-trivial searching by Haley). There *may* be a couple more, and if they are anywhere they are at one of the 3 meetings. But the High Priest of Thor couldn't cast regenerate when Durkon was a kid. And the gap from Regenerate to Miracle - monster killing/ adventuring wise in this setting - is pretty D*** big. No one having miracle is not only quite reasonable, it make sence.

Also that would be LAME.

[8BitNinja]

Also that would be LAME.

If that's lame, then this whole battle is a dream

[Kish]

Any form of handwaving away this entire plot arc would be lame, and thus will not happen.

(And considering who the one cleric in the OotS world established as having ninth-level spells is, the Order should pray, pun intended, that Rich does not establish a "cast Miracle and your problems are automatically, completely, and casually resolved" precedent.)

[8BitNinja]

The others can pray for help, right?

If everyone in the order but Durkon isn't religious, now is the time to find a religion

[kaoskonfety]

I would point out a bit of a gap between:
Dramatic Conflict with no clear victor at the start of a plot arc.
AND
"I CAST WISH! I Wish this wasn't a problem. Hey look it worked!"

I generally limit access reality editing magic (wish and miracle notably) in my settings because they become the Go-To win button far too fast, sidestepping anything that annoys the players enough. Which is why I assume wish and limited wish are NOT on the cheat sheet with the big X's spell list.

Well that and it would be a PAIN to write into a comic to explain to non-D&D'ers for limited potential gain narratively.

[zimmerwald1915]

The others can pray for help, right?

If everyone in the order but Durkon isn't religious, now is the time to find a religion
Haley, Elan, and Vaarsuvius have all proclaimed their allegiance to various deities. Roy is less vehement, but still venerates the Northern Pantheon (possibly "venerated;" we'll see what impact on that veneration recent events have had). Belkar, AFAIK, is irreligious.

[schmunzel]

Roy was the accepted bodyguard of the previous high priest of Hel.

Unless the new high priest of Hel appoints him her bodyguard, which seems unlikely, presumably the moment he attacks the new high priest he'll be in violation of the rules and all the high priests will be obligated to nuke him till he glows, while she retreats out of reach in gaseous form.

I could see Belkar attacking her by surprise, though. :smallbiggrin:

Now - a rather insightful - post shortly before yours mused about the question whether there were rules against domination of humans being consulted by Dvalinn to decide on his vote and came to the (forseeable) conclusion that the rules lawyers concerned probably wouldnt give a damn. (as there might be *no rules against* it)

One important question to ask would be - is there a rule stating who the new bodyguard is in such a situation? Has this happened before?
In case there isnt I would fully expect Roy to be seen as her bodyguard and being allowed to kill her (in case she doesnt mistform for what reason ever)

The more important question would be if Durkula is able to return to the godsmoot after dominating the elders and will he be able to assume the position of HPoH in case the old nHPoH has been slain or is the vote invalid as soon as the nHPoH is killed?

sch

[Deliverance]

One important question to ask would be - is there a rule stating who the new bodyguard is in such a situation? Has this happened before?
In case there isnt I would fully expect Roy to be seen as her bodyguard and being allowed to kill her (in case she doesnt mistform for what reason ever)

There probably is no such rule, as it is unlikely that this has ever been considered.

Unlike you, however, I consider Roy to be the bodyguard of Durkon, since that is how he got in because Durkon as an attendee was allowed two bodyguards of his own, of which Roy was one - rather than Roy being the bodyguard of The Holder of the Title of High Priest of Hel, something we've been given no indication of, in which case he'd be the bodyguard of the new high priest.

Likewise, I consider Wrecan to be Veldrina's bodyguard, admitted to the conclave as one of the two she was allowed to bring, I don't consider him to be bodyguard of The Holder of the Title of Veldrina's Minor Elven Goddess' Representative or The Holder of the Title of the Western Pantheon's Representative with some right to be present apart from as Veldrina's bodyguard.

Doesn't mean it couldn't work the other way, but it would be rather unusual if it did, given how the situation has been presented from Wrecan's first introduction of the concept in #993 and until now.

[schmunzel]

I don't know why you all worry about the bodyguard status of Roy.
He can attack HPOH and it would still be an internal church dispute (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html).

On the other hand there was no rule which allowed a bodyguard to attack his own HP, simply there was no rule about it at all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html). And this permitted Roy to attack.

So, as far as it has been shown to us, the simple absence of a rule regarding a specific situation is enough to make it legit.

So, internal church dispute -> no violation of the rules.
The bodyguards of the other HP are not allowed to attack (seems to be an explicit rule someway) but if there is not a specific rule forbidding an ex BD to attack, then he can attack. I repeat the point above: there was no rule permitting a BD to attack his own HP, simply there was no rule regarding it, and this made it legit.

And yeah, if this seems quite a convoluted reasoning, this is because of the convoluted rules. :P

Not that any of this matters, really. Because the new HPoH can simply use her gaseous form, now, since she has not the particular interest (or opportunities) to kill Roy that Durkula had, and thus she will turn to mist and float out of his reach (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html).

I absolutely agree with 90% of the post
however, I have to Disagree with one point. This is *not* convoluted!!!
Everything is allowed, that is *NOT* explicitely forbidden.
One very simple rule.
That they chose to formulate the existent rules in such an explicit micromanagement manner instead of formulating some ... say - more general rules - (like in the Roman legal system for example) seems reminiscent of a certain legal system most readers of this comic should have some familiarity with. (if a little cartoonesque)

sch

[goodpeople25]

There probably is no such rule, as it is unlikely that this has ever been considered.

Unlike you, however, I consider Roy to be the bodyguard of Durkon, since that is how he got in because Durkon as an attendee was allowed two bodyguards of his own, of which Roy was one - rather than Roy being the bodyguard of The Holder of the Title of High Priest of Hel, something we've been given no indication of, in which case he'd be the bodyguard of the new high priest.

Doesn't mean it couldn't work the other way, but it would be rather unusual if it did.
I don't know, even though Older HPs seem a bit rare this godsmoot, though Thor's (and Odin's ? Is it the same HP in otOoPCs?) HP was recently replaced. That might not have been the case in other ones, It's not exactly unthinkable that they had rules in case a HP died right there and then. I mean sure it's very unlikely odds to die of old age on the 1 day of the godsmoot, but when have odds been the only factor?

[schmunzel]

Durkon has flat out acknowledged that there were options available to him that would utterly neutralize Roy, he just wasn't taking them because he really wanted to beat the crap out of Roy. Likely this new vampire will take advantage of them, given she lacks any personal connection to Roy.

No he did not!
He openly acknowledged he probably should mistform and float around until the issue is resolved (the vote finished and hopefully won) ((and we might ask ourselves how honest he was in his public statement)
He however stated, that he wanted to remove Roy in case there was need for the backup plan

The same thing goes with other statements by Durkula.
He said that he was made to fit the hole in Durkons heart. I believe that was just metaphorical speaking. Carfully chosen to break Durkon so that he stops fighting.
THAT what was the statement was supposed to achieve. Whether it was an honest discussion of the related mechanic seems to be questionable.
(And probably moot)

sch

[Shekinah]

Poor Roy. :smallfrown: