Requirements to Be a True Dragon?

[LordOfCain]

As is said above, what are the requirements? Thanks.

[OldTrees1]

Be a True Dragon that WotC recognizes as a True Dragon. It is a classification rather than a status one can qualify to become.

RAI it is any dragon that was printed in the format the Metallic and Chromatic True Dragons of the MM were printed in.
RAW you have authorial disconnect between Monster Manual & Draconomicon and Races of Dragon that might allow Dragonwrought Kobolds to join the mix.

[ben-zayb]

I've seen some arguments for Half-Dragon Phaerimm Hatchlings qualifying as one, which suggests that only the Dragon-like age category and the Dragon type is needed.

[MisterKaws]

Any dragon that advances in HD through aging is considered a True Dragon.

[Ruethgar]

Races of the Dragon being the most recent has a definite list of all true dragons printed until that book was published.

Dragonwrought Kobolds were not published then and thus fall back on the Dracinomicon definition which I believe was advance through 12 age categories, not to be confused with Advancement through age categories, the defined D&D term.

As a technicality, Half-Dragons are "versions" of True Deagons and thus qualify as True if you squint really hard.

The Dragon Compendium, Tome, Hex and a couple Fearunian Dragons lost their True status with Races of the Dragon, but as I recall, Magic of Incarnum was printed after Races of the Dragon and so the Incarnum Dragon falls back to Dracinomicon and is thus True.

[OldTrees1]

Races of the Dragon being the most recent has a definite list of all true dragons printed until that book was published.

Dragonwrought Kobolds were not published then and thus fall back on the Dracinomicon definition.

AFB: Wait, why are you presuming that the definite list in Races of the Dragon excluded itself?

[LordOfCain]

What templates make you a dragon?

[John Longarrow]

Half Dragon changes your Type to Dragon. Depending on what you are tying for this may be all you need.

[Red Fel]

Well, here's the crux of the issue.

The SRD describes the features of True Dragons. They are Chromatic and Metallic. They advance by age categories. And it notes that other creatures with the Dragon type do not necessarily have these features. Nonetheless, these are features, not requirements.

Draconomicon goes on to say that the only True Dragons are those listed in the Monster Manual and SRD, as well as an explicit and limited list of additional True Dragons. Between this book and Races of the Dragon, it appears - but is not explicit - that any creature of the Dragon type that advances through twelve age categories is a True Dragon.

It becomes a matter of interpretation, and this interpretation has been and remains hotly debated. Either a True Dragon is one of the listed True Dragons, full stop, in which case the only way to be a True Dragon is to be one of these creatures; or a True Dragon is any creature with the Dragon type that advances through twelve age categories, in which case any creature that can meet those two requirements can be a True Dragon.

If you're looking for an explicit RAW answer to your question, you won't find it. If you're looking for an internet debate, however, you'll find advocates on both sides.

[Ruethgar]

AFB: Wait, why are you presuming that the definite list in Races of the Dragon excluded itself?
Because it says that the list is all of the true dragons published to date and, at time of writing, that book was not yet published.

Edit: Half-Dragon and Dragonspawn are the only two templates I know of that make you a Dragon. Half-Dragon has the benefit of being referred to as a "version" of their True dragon ancestor in Races of the Dragon and can thus be considered True by RAW, but it is only one supporting sentence in the book. So, while rules legal, is not on solid ground.

There are multiple ways to get the effects of half dragon, the normal template, the template class, the draconic class, the disciple and rituals, 3 of which can overlap(exclude disciple). So you can be essentially a half-red, half-blue, half-silver, white dragon. Half dragon and elf both specify that they can be several generations removed from their "half" ancestor and don't need to be born of one parent from each race.

[Necroticplague]

Dracomonicon has this to say:

For the most part, this book concerns itself with the ten
varieties of true dragon described in the
Monster Manual
—
the five chromatic dragons (black, blue, green, red, white) and
the five metallic dragons (brass, bronze, copper, gold, silver).
True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful
as they grow older.
A number of other true dragons are described in Chapter 4
of this book. In addition, Appendix 2: Index of Dragons provides
a complete list of all true dragons that have been presented in
official sources.
Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance
through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons (which
should not be taken to mean that they are necessarily less
formidable than true dragons)
Thus, by this, it appears that the definition of true dragon is "a creature of the Dragon type that advances through age categories". Implicitly, it's referring to the draconic age categories (starting at wyrmling and ending at great wyrm).

[LordOfCain]

Dracomonicon has this to say:

Thus, by this, it appears that the definition of true dragon is "a creature of the Dragon type that advances through age categories". Implicitly, it's referring to the draconic age categories (starting at wyrmling and ending at great wyrm).
So... half-dragon humans could count as true dragons. They advance through age categories and have the dragon type...

[daremetoidareyo]

Because it says that the list is all of the true dragons published to date and, at time of writing, that book was not yet published.

But you can't read those rules unless it is published! HAHA. Silly WOTC and their predilection for infinite loops.

[OldTrees1]

Because it says that the list is all of the true dragons published to date and, at time of writing, that book was not yet published.

And why are you concluding that it was written as if for the writer and not as if for the reader? From the context of the 1st reader, RotD was published and thus part of "published to date". Vs from the context of the 1st author, RotD was not "published to date". Often the written word is written in the context of the reader, why do you expect it was written in the context of the writer rather than the reader?

To take a more RAW approach: The written word cannot be RAW until published, thus the words "published to date" become RAW at the point of publishing. Thus RotD was "published to date" when the words "published to date" became RAW.

[John Longarrow]

So... half-dragon humans could count as true dragons. They advance through age categories and have the dragon type...

Humans do not advance through age categories. Humans advance through experience. A dragon gets stronger just by living regardless of what else it does. Humans need to get XPs.

[LordOfCain]

Humans do not advance through age categories. Humans advance through experience. A dragon gets stronger just by living regardless of what else it does. Humans need to get XPs.

Maybe age categories? StackOverflow says that half-dragons are true dragons...

[John Longarrow]

The template does not state you advance by age categories.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Maybe age categories? StackOverflow says that half-dragons are true dragons...

Advancing through age categories and advancing because of those age categories are very different situations. A human(and thus half dragons) will be considered a different age category as they age, and they may have also advanced in level or hit die over that time, but they did not advance in hit die BECAUSE of the advancement in age category, they had to gain experience. While a true dragon doesn't need experience and will advance in hit die simply because they have advanced in age category.

[Ruethgar]

At the time of the rule's writing it was not a legal published rule and could not have included itself in documents published to date no mater the intent for the reader. Once published it became a rule but to date would still have referred to that sentence's pre published writing.

Consider an example such as a scientist's notes being made into a publication. Saying "these are my most promising results to date" would not be referring to the date of publication, but rather the date originally referred to in the notes.

Even knowing that they would be published, references to published works to date, while likely intended to refer to the current publishment pending works, for the post publication reader could only accurately refer to actually published works at time of writing.

[Max Caysey]

As is said above, what are the requirements? Thanks.

Be born as one!

[OldTrees1]

At the time of the rule's writing it was not a legal published rule and could not have included itself in documents published to date no mater the intent for the reader. Once published it became a rule but to date would still have referred to that sentence's pre published writing.

Consider an example such as a scientist's notes being made into a publication. Saying "these are my most promising results to date" would not be referring to the date of publication, but rather the date originally referred to in the notes.

Even knowing that they would be published, references to published works to date, while likely intended to refer to the current publishment pending works, for the post publication reader could only accurately refer to actually published works at time of writing.

The example of a scientist's notes is a poor example for your argument since a scientists notes would include themselves in any "results to date" statement.

However you have explained your position like I asked so at this point I will thank you for the explanation and agree to disagree.

[Chronos]

One can also argue that dragonwrought kobolds are on the list, because dragonwrought kobolds are based on specific dragons, not just dragons in general. Thus, for instance, you can have a white dragonwrought kobold, or a bronze dragonwrought kobold, etc. And a white DWK is on the list as "white dragon", and a bronze DWK is on the list as "bronze dragon", and so on.

[Ruethgar]

Except that DWK, unlike half dragons, do not have a clause saying that they are version of the true dragons they are based upon.

[Chronos]

Oh, and while we're at it, whether DWKs are true dragons or not actually makes very little difference. Most of the really juicy benefits you'd be trying for just require the dragon type, and DWKs definitely have that. IIRC, dragon psychoses are the only thing that's actually restricted to true dragons.

[Jay R]

Well, see, when a mommy dragon and a daddy dragon love each other very, very much, ...

[Deadline]

Oh, and while we're at it, whether DWKs are true dragons or not actually makes very little difference. Most of the really juicy benefits you'd be trying for just require the dragon type, and DWKs definitely have that. IIRC, dragon psychoses are the only thing that's actually restricted to true dragons.

Well, there's the epic feat cheese for Great Wyrms.

[Chronos]

Which doesn't require you to be a true dragon.

[Deadline]

Which doesn't require you to be a true dragon.

It, and the Sovereign Archetypes in Dragons of Eberron, both strongly imply that they are for True Dragons only (high HD [21+] dragons and actually mentioning True Dragons, respectively). But because neither of them states explicitly that they are only for True Dragons, we (as optimizers) take the most broken reading possible. :smalltongue:

[Chronos]

Except that the epic feats rule can't only be referring to 21 HD dragons, because those wouldn't need any special rule to qualify for epic feats. In fact, so far as I can tell, not only are DWKs affected by that rule, they're the only dragons affected by that rule. All of the core true dragons, at least, already have more than 20 HD by the time they reach Old age, and the core non-true dragons don't have age categories.

[Jay R]

The main requirement to be a True Dragon is a DM who wants True Dragons in his campaign.

[Ruethgar]

The best way to qualify is to be an ECL 0 hatchling dragon(only the base ten MMI apply).