Struggling to "find myself" (now, multiclass opinions, paladin/cleric/fvs/bard?)

[charlesk]

Setting: we are playing Out of the Abyss (mild spoilers for it below, though most of what I am going to say you would learn in the first session anyway).



Current party is 4 PCs and a boatload of NPCs we have been dragging through the Underdark for weeks. Other three characters are:
- Very optimized Battlemaster fighter with a barbarian level for rage, who just got a nice magic sword. Fighters peak early and he now somewhat dominates the team, with +10 to hit already, high AC (20) and rage for half damage. And he's about to get his second attack.
- Rogue with sharpshooter who mostly snipes and does the usual roguey stuff.
- Fiend-type warlock, does very nice damage and stays alive with temp HP.

They are all good characters and all with very specific roles: tank, ranged DPS, blaster. I volunteered to "go last" in terms of picking a role, and as you can see I got left with utility/healing/casting. This alone is a tough order to fill. But my problem is exacerbated by the fact that I basically played this role in our last long campaign (warlock 2 / bard N) and I didn't want to make something very similar again.

My first character was a life cleric 1 / moon druid (cleric for Goodberry shenanigans, which were very useful). Solid character but I got bored of it quickly. I felt like a "Goodberry dispenser", using most of my spell slots for that, and got tired of keeping track of them. Wild shape quickly turned out not to be as much fun as I expected either, because the horrific AC of the animal forms meant I would get slaughtered quickly. I wasn't nearly as tanky as the tank and didn't do nearly as much damage as the DPS, and in animal form I couldn't cast anything, even if I hadn't already used my slots on goodberries.

So I dropped that to try my hand at an abjuration wizard, which I've always thought would be a neat concept. But that's not working out terribly well either. I took a level of cleric again so I am cleric 1 / abjurer 4. The arcane ward "looks good on paper", but it's actually a miniscule amount of health boost which goes away the first time you get hit. Then trying to regenerate it seems to take forever. There are very few abjuration spells in the game, which is disappointing. I mostly end up STILL running around healing everyone else, which is made worse by all the NPCs we are toting around.

Last night we played and a big fight began by me getting hit for 40 HP in one massive attack. The arcane ward absorbed 12 of that, okay, but that's not a lot, and then basically after that, there was almost nothing I could do to regenerate the ward. I had a couple of abjuration spells available but mostly I needed to use the slots for other things. I only have 9 slots. Meanwhile our warlock was getting 10 temporary HP every time he finished anyone off with his powerful Eldritch Blast / Hex combo. The imbalance between these two abilities was rather striking to me.

I don't know if the problem here is the character concept, the environment, poor build, or lack of patience on my part (low-level casters always seem to stink at first). I realize that at 10th and 14th levels abjurers get great abilities, but most of this campaign will be before level 10. Even with 20 Intelligence and at say, level 8, my arcane ward is going to have 21 HP. That's peanuts given that our characters will be pushing 80-100 HP.

So is the abjurer just overrated, at least at the low levels? Do I suck at playing it? Maybe it's only the 10th and 14th level abilities that shine and the arcane ward is just an added bonus that I am too focused on now because it's all I get?

Anyone have any other ideas for a fun support/utility character that I might have more luck with?

Thanks. :)

Note: DM has already ruled out Warlock 2 / Abjurer N infinite Mage Armor shenanigans. ;)

[Douche]

All I can say is that, as a 4th level life cleric, I too have felt the pain of being practically negligible in terms of damage during combat. Last week, I dealt damage once in the entire session. However, I have recently found the bless is a really awesome buff. Saved my partys bacon a bunch of times. I did feel pretty appreciated for that contribution.

Other than that, I don't know enough about wizards. In fact, I've only been playing for like 4 months, and have never even looked in the wizard section.

[Taejang]

Read this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IeOXWvbkmQ3nEyM2P3lS8TU4rsK6QJP0oH7HE_v67QY/edit). The second part is here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZHzEjiHvtDItZE2ixfoYwqi7brTO-ag8uBJndE5saro/edit). Treantmonk's opinions aren't spot-on with my own, but he does a fantastic job of explaining how a support wizard should look.

As an abjuration wizard, you may have to adjust some of his ideas slightly, but only slightly. Have fun watching your three friends storm the castle while you sip lemonade and grace them with Bless!

[charlesk]

Thanks, I've seen that guide before.

Funny as late in our big fight last night I ended up using my last 3rd level slot to cast Bless on 5 party members. It helped us finish off some guys.

I also ended up running in and casting Invisibility on myself and our unconscious tank and dragging him to safety.

So maybe I do just need to think more in terms of utility and "god mode". But a 4th level wizard doesn't feel very godlike.

I know that 5th level is a "big one" for wizards. But I've already got a warlock who can toss fireballs around. Counterspell is the biggie for an abjuration wizard, but that's kind of all or nothing: against spellcasters it is great, and against everyone else, useless.

[Taejang]

Thanks, I've seen that guide before.

Funny as late in our big fight last night I ended up using my last 3rd level slot to cast Bless on 5 party members. It helped us finish off some guys.

I also ended up running in and casting Invisibility on myself and our unconscious tank and dragging him to safety.

So maybe I do just need to think more in terms of utility and "god mode". But a 4th level wizard doesn't feel very godlike.

I know that 5th level is a "big one" for wizards. But I've already got a warlock who can toss fireballs around. Counterspell is the biggie for an abjuration wizard, but that's kind of all or nothing: against spellcasters it is great, and against everyone else, useless.
Sounds like you are already doing a decent job of it. A 4th level wizard isn't godlike from the perspective of "ultimate power," I agree, but from a "tip the balance of any encounter," a 4th level wizard can feel pretty good. Having that level of cleric helps with your options, and you're right, 5th level wizard helps. Those 3rd level spells are amazing.

A real support wizard won't be doing as much damage as your party's warlock. If you feel useless when not doing damage (and nothing wrong with that, my wife feels she doesn't contribute unless somebody dies), then a support role is just not your thing.

[Oramac]

Read this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IeOXWvbkmQ3nEyM2P3lS8TU4rsK6QJP0oH7HE_v67QY/edit). The second part is here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZHzEjiHvtDItZE2ixfoYwqi7brTO-ag8uBJndE5saro/edit).

I was going to link exactly those two articles as well.

If you're not feeling the Wizard, maybe consider a Paladin as a support class. Oath of Devotion or Oath of the Ancients can be great support/tanks, and Oath of Vengeance is some of the best nova damage there is.

I'm currently playing a Vengeance Paladin in one campaign. At 3rd level, I literally one shot the Big Bad with a Greatsword, Divine Smite and some really lucky rolls. The DM wasn't so happy about that though......

[charlesk]

Was thinking about paladin. Though we already have two pretty good martials. (I know paladins are sort of cross-overs.)

What's ironic is that most of the good abjuration spells are.. cleric spells.

I also just noticed Armor of Agathys. I know that dipping warlock is supposed to be a no-no for a wizard, but man, that would be a perfect spell for an abjurer mage! Cast that in a second-level slot, get 10 temporary HP from the spell, 4 HP for the arcane ward.

If I have the ward up and a creature hits, wonder how that works... RAW I guess the points come off the ward first and the damage still applies.. but a bit cheesy to do damage if you never got hit. Or maybe not. :)

[charlesk]

This is more complex than I (or my DM) originally thought. If the arcane ward takes all the damage, then did I actually get "hit" for the Armor of Agathys to affect the attacker? Hmm.

[MaxWilson]

BTW, are you aware that Alarm is both an abjuration spell and a ritual? Each time you cast it your ward regains 2 HP. Plus as a side effect, you cover your back trail and learn when someone is following you.

Personally though, instead of an abjuror, I'd rather be an armored Cleric/Necromancer who tanks damage with real HP instead of Arcane Ward, and then regenerates the damage after combat by roasting sackfuls of 2 cp chickens with a Flaming Sphere for 4 HP of healing per chicken. Not only do you get healing, but you also get a delicious* meal! And eggs in the meantime.


* Yes, I know full well what a chicken roasted to death by a flaming sphere would actually taste like to a normal person. My Necromancer was a little batty.

[charlesk]

LOL.

Well, my DM is whining about me being a warlock (doesn't want to deal with more patron stuff with another warlock in the party) so I am probably stuck with the cleric 1 / wizard-something N. I did consider necromancer, but I won't be able to get away with cheese like that. (Chicken and cheese.. getting me hungry.)

I guess I'll stick with the abjurer, though Armor of Agathys was a natural there.

[8wGremlin]

svirfneblin gnome abjuration school mage, take the svirfneblin magic feat at 4th level and cast non-detection @will. It's a 3rd-level abjuration (6hp back).


or perhaps
Human variant, Standard Array:
12 Str,
14 Dex, (13 +1 human)
14 Con
16 Wis, (15 +1 human)
10 Int,
8 Cha


10 hp @level 1, + 7hp/level (avg)
Medium Armour (breastplate or half plate when you can afford it) with shield and Dex = AC: 18 (hard to hit)


Cleric Arcane domain, some good spells.
Pick up Firebolt and Green Flame Blade (GFB) - This covers melee and ranged combat


Feat: Magic Initiate Druid (Goodberry, Shillelagh, +1 other ) - With Shillelagh you now attack off of you Wis modifier - take a club that looks like something cool - does 1d8 damage, and is magical


First round of Melee goes:
Bonus action: Shillelagh
Move to attack range
Action: GFB - hit target and secondary target takes some damage.




Skills: Insight, Religion, Arcana, Athletics, Survival, Perception (Wis based skills will be high)
Background: OUTLANDER (able to search for food.)

[charlesk]

Thanks, good idea but she already said I can't be svirfneblin either for thematic reasons (which do make sense).

[Oramac]

Are you stuck on the Wizard? A Sorcerer could be another fun option too, though you would have fewer spells known, you'd get the Metamagic abilities, which can be all kinds of useful.

[charlesk]

I've at this point decided to go back to a character concept I played briefly last year, which is a Paladin 2 / Favored Soul N.

My DM thinks FvS is a bit overpowered with all the extra spells so allowed me to take it but I only get one domain spell per level free. If I want the other I can have it but it comes off my spells list. I personally think Sorcs don't get enough spells but this was a reasonable enough compromise.

This isn't strictly what I wanted to play, but I think it's important for our party. Even with my current character, I'd eventually get lots of wizard utility, but 1 level of cleric only goes so far. We have nobody who can cast key spells like Lesser Restoration or Revivify, and I can get those off the FvS list.

I'm still stuck with mostly d6s, but this guy will be a viable front-liner to help out our tank (who thinks he can handle every encounter by himself, but can't). He can do decent melee DPS (probably going two-hander with GWM), he can heal, in a pinch he can blast, and eventually he has access to metamagic gimmicks (twinned Haste is nothing to sneeze at).

I am actually tempted for the first time ever to take the "Tough" feat on a character.. though I probably won't and just rely on mitigation of some form.

I wonder if Polearm Master would be good for this character. No I won't be doing the Polearm/Sentinel thing but I do like the idea of anything approaching me getting a halberd to the face.

[Taejang]

This isn't strictly what I wanted to play, but I think it's important for our party. Even with my current character, I'd eventually get lots of wizard utility, but 1 level of cleric only goes so far. We have nobody who can cast key spells like Lesser Restoration or Revivify, and I can get those off the FvS list.

I am actually tempted for the first time ever to take the "Tough" feat on a character.. though I probably won't and just rely on mitigation of some form.
Wizards can get Remove Curse, which doesn't replace the Restoration spells but covers curses. Potions and scrolls and NPCs can all cover the other "permanent" effects which Restoration handles. The temporary ones are usually (not always, but usually) best left to work themselves out. Revivify is harder to cover as a wizard (there are ways to do it, mind you, but it is harder). But if you keep people from dying, you won't need it.

That said, nothing wrong with the different character you've come up with.

"Tough" is actually a very good option for HP. You get 4 Constitution worth of HP at once. It may not help your Con saving throws, but HP is almost always relevant, while Con saves may not be (depending on your class and campaign).

[Sir cryosin]

I played a adj wizard and I talked my Dm abut spells. I liked but was on different caster list. so I talked with him and being a wizard you study magic and spell so he allowed me to learn spells from other list but I need to fine a scroll or someone to teach me. It cost 2x the money and time to learn them but that what a wizard does he study magic.

[gfishfunk]

LOL.

Well, my DM is whining about me being a warlock (doesn't want to deal with more patron stuff with another warlock in the party) so I am probably stuck with the cleric 1 / wizard-something N. I did consider necromancer, but I won't be able to get away with cheese like that. (Chicken and cheese.. getting me hungry.)

I guess I'll stick with the abjurer, though Armor of Agathys was a natural there.

For what it is worth, there are several threads on making a Warlock / Abjuration Wizard. Its very difficult to do. And yes, Arcane Ward reads 'when you are hit...', as does Armor of Agathys Cold damage, so it will trigger. You are still being hit according to the text of the Arcane Ward, even though it absorbs the damage.

I hate being stuck in an RP rut, forced to take a role because no one else wants it -- and it usually is the healer that no one wants to play.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

One could try an Undying Light Warlock - decent support, good damage, and since the `Patron` is a form of energy rather than a sentient being, it avoids most of those complications.

[Hudsonian]

No love for the Storm Cleric? That guy is beast! At lvl 8 he can even go melee and do pretty decent damage in one hit. (Kind of like a mini-smite 1/turn).

Also, You already have a skill monkey (rogue), a face (Warlock), and a tank. Do you have someone for perception, insight, and religion?

Cleric's might not necessarily be the go-to damage dealer, but that doesn't mean you can't do some pretty sweet stuff. S.Clerics even get a flying speed eventually.

[Taejang]

You know, the group I DM for hasn't had a healer from level 5, and they are now level 14. No druid, no paladin, no cleric. They had a monk, fighter, sorcerer, and wizard, and neither the sorcerer nor wizard focused on buffs or utility. The sorcerer did die a few levels back and the player rolled up a rogue.

I'm not sure 5e requires a support character, to be honest.

[Submortimer]

You know, the group I DM for hasn't had a healer from level 5, and they are now level 14. No druid, no paladin, no cleric. They had a monk, fighter, sorcerer, and wizard, and neither the sorcerer nor wizard focused on buffs or utility. The sorcerer did die a few levels back and the player rolled up a rogue.

I'm not sure 5e requires a support character, to be honest.

It doesn't, really. You can get by just fine with healing pots and short rests, so long as your DM isn't a stickler about such things.

WRT the other issues, I'll say this: Base clerics are monsters in terms of damage output and utility. Bless is one of the best uses for a 1st level spell slot in the game, Spiritual weapon can double your damage output and doesn't require concentration, and I'm sure I don't need to tell you how astoundingly awesome Spiritual Guardians is. Having a 5th level cleric in the party sets most fights to Easy mode.

Now, personally, I like to play life clerics. For one, they get heavy armor, which is great, and two, their heals are much more potent, so I can spend fewer spell slots to keep my party alive and more slots on killing the stuff that was making my party dead in the first place. Remember, spending your time in combat healing the party is an inefficient use of action economy: be a combat medic. Use Spare the Dying and the like to keep the meat shields on their feet, and use Prayer of healing after the fight to get everyone ready for the next encounter. In the meantime, hit everyone you can with your massive hammer or mace, and either make the whole party better at killing or summon a cloud of tiny, pissed off angels to tear your foes to shreds. Treat Cure Wounds like a fire extinguisher: great to have around, but only use it in emergencies.

Also, play a dwarf, and heal people by smacking them in the head with your staff/cane/cudgel.

[RickAllison]

I agree with the previous posters, you don't need to be strictly support because the rest of your party only wanted damage. Play the character you want and the challenges will be that much more entertaining when you improvise to succeed rather than having the perfect skill for the job each time.

[charlesk]

This campaign seems to have a LOT of combat. We already have far less healing since I dropped my druid. If we go to no cleric stuff at all, we are going to be running from every fight.

I also don't really like the idea of the party not having anyone who can cast Revivify. Yes there are ways around it, but still.

I do usually try to "get ahead of the heals" but there's just a lot of PCs and NPCs and monsters... I'm afraid to drop it entirely.

This is not a typical campaign. We go for days or weeks without encountering anywhere to get supplies. We are foraging for food and water. There are no friendly temples nearby with clerics we can pay to raise people or cast restoration spells.

[RickAllison]

This campaign seems to have a LOT of combat. We already have far less healing since I dropped my druid. If we go to no cleric stuff at all, we are going to be running from every fight.

I also don't really like the idea of the party not having anyone who can cast Revivify. Yes there are ways around it, but still.

I do usually try to "get ahead of the heals" but there's just a lot of PCs and NPCs and monsters... I'm afraid to drop it entirely.

This is not a typical campaign. We go for days or weeks without encountering anywhere to get supplies. We are foraging for food and water. There are no friendly temples nearby with clerics we can pay to raise people or cast restoration spells.

Well, it sounds like this is almost a survival game rather than a dungeon-delver. It could make for a very interesting game if everyone is very well aware of the risk of death. Giving up healing might force everyone to consider more strategy, engaging in battle only on your terms. Running becomes a viable strategy, and may become a tactic leading to an ambush. A non-optimized party makes for more engaging gameplay as everyone is forced to think more creatively.

[Submortimer]

This campaign seems to have a LOT of combat. We already have far less healing since I dropped my druid. If we go to no cleric stuff at all, we are going to be running from every fight.

I also don't really like the idea of the party not having anyone who can cast Revivify. Yes there are ways around it, but still.

I do usually try to "get ahead of the heals" but there's just a lot of PCs and NPCs and monsters... I'm afraid to drop it entirely.

This is not a typical campaign. We go for days or weeks without encountering anywhere to get supplies. We are foraging for food and water. There are no friendly temples nearby with clerics we can pay to raise people or cast restoration spells.

Like I said, life cleric. Mostly, I was trying to point out that a life cleric is not just a healbot, they're very competent and powerful combat machines with the bonus of being very efficient healers at the same time. They can afford to prepare other spells, because the beat healing ones are auto prepared every day.

A few other good points:

1. This works wonders with Magic Initiate (Druid). Shillelagh + produce flame allows you to mainline wisdom without sacrificing damage, and Good berry 1/day takes care of all of your nourishment needs. You already have the 1st level spell Create or Destroy water.

2. As suggested earlier, Arcane clerics are just as good, but require you to stay further from the action. Potential exists for great things as a wood elf with a splash of rogue: use your speed plus your high dexterity while taking the disengage action, allowing you to get in, heal, and get back out without getting hit.

3. Magic Initiate (wizard or sorcerer) can also be quite nice: Booming Blade or Greenflame blade are great spells and key off of your melee attack bonus, allowing you to get lots of bonus D8's with your Big Fargin Hammer swings (or mace, if you're not playing a dwarf). You lose some damage on the back end by not having a high int, but not enough for it not to be worth it. Throw in a utility cantrip, like mage hand, and then Shield 1/day and you have a solid boost to your fighting prowess.

All else fails, take war caster and save a 3rd level slot for Create Food and Water every couple days or so.

[Submortimer]

Point to make: determine how your DM adjudicates Spirit guardians first. I'm in the "you can cast it, and then run over your enemies once a turn" camp, but lots of people see it differently.

[RulesJD]

Okay here's how to un-suck your Cleric:

1. Realize that at level 5 you become the biggest damage dealing class in the game.

2. Get as much armor on your Cleric as possible (I recommend Tempest Cleric). Ideally Heavy Armor + Shields, but you can dumpstat Str and just take Medium armor + Shields instead if need be. Take Resiliency (Con) or War Caster.

3. Once you hit 5th level you get Spirit Guardians. You now easily out-damage everyone in your party (since the Fighter clearly doesn't have GWM and is rocking sword and board). Use Spiritual Weapon to help whittle down bosses or Maximized Shatters to do terrifying damage in 1 round (24 Thunder damage at level 2 spell slot, +8 for each upgrade, then another 3d8 Radiant likely from Spirit Guardians = pretty much every mook is dead).

4. If you're going to be a Cleric/Wizard, that's fine. Pick up Find Familiar (Owl) to be the best scout in the game. You'll almost always be the first "person" in a room because you'll be controlling your familiar. Use Unseen Servant/Mage Hand to handle all the traps.

For Wizard, I HIGHLY recommend going Evocation. You'll be able to sculpt your Shatters directly on yourself and your entire front line. Between Spirit Guardians and a Maximized Shatter, you'll wipe out entire encounters on your own with just 2 spells. Also, pick up Chromatic Orb from the Wizard list. Use it as Lightning Damage for the auto-knock back and HUGE single target damage with the Tempest Cleric maximization. First level spell for 24 damage, and +8 for each spell slot above that? Not too shabby.

1. Take 5 levels of Tempest Cleric.
2. Take 1 level of Wizard (ritual casting + Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade).
3. Either 1 more of Wizard for Evocation sculpting of Shatters, or a few more of Cleric for more Channel divinities.

After those levels, it's up to you. You can take a level of Wizard sooner if you want for all the utility stuff, just get to level 5 asap for Spirit Guardians. If you're a Variant Human, first feat is Resiliency (Con) and then boost Wisdom at the next ASI.

[charlesk]

Some great food for thought all around there, thanks!

None of us has read SCAG and all of that is out of this campaign.

This group just finished a year-long campaign that had a Tempest Cleric in it, so I would likely avoid that, but yes there are many options. Spirit Guardians is an amazing spell, agreed.

BTW our rogue is an arcane trickster and the warlock is tome pact, so our mage handing and ritualing are under control.

The pally / favored soul does have a lot of flexibility in and out of combat, and a decent selection of both cleric and wizard spells.

I guess I can't really go wrong with any of these options.

[charlesk]

Wondering.... would a paladin/bard be even better than paladin / favored soul? Healing covered, utility up the wazoo, magical secrets, and better hit die.

[joaber]

Wondering.... would a paladin/bard be even better than paladin / favored soul? Healing covered, utility up the wazoo, magical secrets, and better hit die.

why go as favored soul if you already is a paladin? You already have the proficiencies and the extra attack, if you want the cleric spells, go bard. Any other origin will be better.
If you can abuse of twin or quick, and his spells fit to you, go sorc.
Any other case bard will be better.

[charlesk]

Ya sort of my thinking.

It does stink that I will be basically forced to take Warcaster for the build to work, though. I am not a big fan of that feat (prefer Resilient/Con).

[Oramac]

Ya sort of my thinking.

It does stink that I will be basically forced to take Warcaster for the build to work, though. I am not a big fan of that feat (prefer Resilient/Con).

Use a two-handed weapon. You can cast with the off-hand while holding the weapon in the main-hand, and attacking with two hands.

If you're stuck on sword and board, and your DM pays attention to that sort of thing, then War Caster might be required. :(

[charlesk]

Never thought of that! If I am casting a spell with a somatic component I am probably not attacking with my sword anyway. The only low-level bonus action bard spell is Healing Word, which is V only. I could also use a versatile weapon like a longsword.

Thanks!

I was debating in general whether to go 2H for damage (with GWM) or shield for better AC. We already have a tank. But otherwise, my AC is going to be rather poor.

The whole "dex vs. strength" issue comes up here too. 5e seems to be better optimized for dex builds, which is why I usually do them (stealth, and dex saves matter more than strength saves). Though I am tired of poking things with rapiers. And if I am going 2H, I probably need heavy armor to keep my AC from being awful.

One complication is the character concept. This guy is supposed to be someone able to infiltrate and survive in the Underdark on his own. It seems a big guy clunking around in heavy armor is much less ideal for this than a stealthy character.

What do you guys think. :)

I was even considering dipping 1 level of barb for rage, just for the damage resistance, if it became necessary. I'm a dipaholic. :)

[Taejang]

I was debating in general whether to go 2H for damage (with GWM) or shield for better AC. We already have a tank. But otherwise, my AC is going to be rather poor.

The whole "dex vs. strength" issue comes up here too. 5e seems to be better optimized for dex builds, which is why I usually do them (stealth, and dex saves matter more than strength saves). Though I am tired of poking things with rapiers. And if I am going 2H, I probably need heavy armor to keep my AC from being awful.

One complication is the character concept. This guy is supposed to be someone able to infiltrate and survive in the Underdark on his own. It seems a big guy clunking around in heavy armor is much less ideal for this than a stealthy character.
I agree, Dex builds are better than Str for most classes in 5e.

You can always use ranged weapons instead of melee, enabling a Dex build without a rapier. Bows and crossbows are also two-handed, so you have access to spells without the Warcaster feat. If you want to get up-close, take the feat to enable distance attacks without penalty, though it seems silly to do so instead of using melee weapons. You could use thrown weapons and a shield, if you can keep enough ammunition; your hands are open until you pull another dagger to throw (daggers aren't the best option, but I'm away from book).

With some light armor + 16 Dex, it is reasonable to get 15AC, for an eventual 17 when/if you hit 20 Dex, and a variety of magic items can improve that (mithril armor and cloak of protection are only uncommon). If you can cast Shield, that helps a lot, and I'm a big fan of Mirror Image (no concentration, unlike poor Blur).

[charlesk]

Thanks for the reply.

Party already has a bow-based rogue and a warlock, I need to be a front-liner.

At this point I'm really confused about how to build this guy because there are many options and many restrictions. I thought about swapping between S&B and 2H using a longsword depending on circumstances but apparently in 5e you can't drop a shield as a free action, which I think is ludicrous but my DM is being strict about. And now that you've mentioned the defensive spells, I realize that bards get none of them: no Shield, no Blur, no Mirror Image. Also no Counterspell or Dispel Magic or Haste.

I may have to back to the favored soul idea. Or something else. I love Cutting Words and so forth, but I can't make a gish who has no useful gish spells... :( Magical Secrets only goes so far...

[Citan]

Thanks for the reply.

Party already has a bow-based rogue and a warlock, I need to be a front-liner.

At this point I'm really confused about how to build this guy because there are many options and many restrictions. I thought about swapping between S&B and 2H using a longsword depending on circumstances but apparently in 5e you can't drop a shield as a free action, which I think is ludicrous but my DM is being strict about. And now that you've mentioned the defensive spells, I realize that bards get none of them: no Shield, no Blur, no Mirror Image. Also no Counterspell or Dispel Magic or Haste.

I may have to back to the favored soul idea. Or something else. I love Cutting Words and so forth, but I can't make a gish who has no useful gish spells... :( Magical Secrets only goes so far...
Hey there :)

I saw your thread yesterday but didn't have time to reply before. Read the whole quickly, maybe too fast, because I'm a bit lost as to what you want to be in the end... :)

So, for the sake of the exercise, let's say that I understood the following...
1. Some roles are already nicely covered: tank, ranged DPS, blaster
2. You'd like to avoid playing, again, a Warlock 2 / Bard N and generally, any build that is too much focused on utility/support to feel he provides in terms of raw power.
3. Your DM also would prefer any build that would bring too much complication / RP implications, such as a Patron (not sure I understand why since he's always free to follow or let you propose, but well).
4. With all that said, you stress the need for such roles (support/heal/utility) to be filled in your party, especially since there is a strong "survival" component present in your campaign...

Well, this is a non-trivial one. ^^ Like that ;)

Let's try and bring some builds where you would be able to bring a decent haul of support, but without being stuck as "heal caster".
I'll also consider that all options are allowed (since FS is allowed).


Roles covered: Utility +++ (Jack of All Trade, double Expertise), Heal ++, Buff ++, Debuff ++, Weapon ++
Rogue is basically to bring Cunning Action, small boost to damage and celerity (CHA initiative).
Valor Bard for everything else (I put lvl 10 for Magic Secrets in the end, but lvl 6 is the one required).

Start Bard up to 6 then Rogue.
Problem: you're still upping a caster.

Similar to the previous one, but more focused on offense. You just bring healing spells thanks to the Domain.
This build has the advantage of having fun with Metamagic.
You could even swap Swashbuckler for Arcane Trickster, different but great also. You trade mobility and bonus to Initiative for extra cantrip (including fun Mage Hand) and always useful spells (Shield, Magic Missile). ;)



You may wonder why I propose something you tried already. ;)
Thing is, you tried a Moon Druid and were disappointed by Wild Shaping right?
Get another approach: still take Life Cleric IF you feel the extra heal is necessary otherwise you can do without.
Same with Monk, take one level if you have high DEX (in addition to high WIS) for the Unarmored AC. You could take a few more levels if you plan to get a bit in melee, but generally not recommended because not enough ki points and US damage dice to feel really worthy.
So, Druid 5. Why? Conjure Animals ;) You can unleash some beasts and let them run and bite everywhere while you take care of other things. You are not technically always on the front line, but the front line is taken care of anyways. XD


If you want to be a frontliner, feel useful from lvl 1 onwards, and still have options, starting Paladin and going up to 6/7 (depending on Oath) is probably the best choice. From there, you can continue pure Paladin or cram another class. I'd suggest Sorcerer rather than bard because I feel Metamagic ability will be easier to use immediately than Bard's but it's up to you. You could also just take one level of Undying Light Warlock for the radiant damage bonus.


Wizard!! What else to say? You got everything covered... Except healing (hence the Bard proposition). Otherwise, just Fighter for proficiencies, CON saving throw and fighting style.

My gut would tell Paladin if you want to be a front-liner and need to start lvl 1. Second would be Fighter 1 / Life Favored Soul (fighter only for proficiencies and Fighting Style) or Bard 1 / Wizard X.

Otherwise, I hope my propositions will have inspired you (most will be hard/boring for the few first levels and you will feel behind, so maybe a pure class will be the best, or just taking bits of idea here and there).

Hope this helps. :)

[Taejang]

And now that you've mentioned the defensive spells, I realize that bards get none of them: no Shield, no Blur, no Mirror Image. Also no Counterspell or Dispel Magic or Haste.
Remember, a Bard can have any spell he wants if he wants it badly enough.

[charlesk]

@Citan thanks so much, I will review those builds!

My big decision is whether to focus on Gish-like spells to help me in combat, or more utility spells. On the surface the utility brought by bard spells is what we need, but will I get to cast them if I am frequently in melee? I am familiar with bard since I played one for a long time and this would be different enough that it wouldn't be a big 'deja vu' issue.. but I am not sure how much sense it makes in melee unless I am just using the slots for smiting.

@Taejang, yes, magical secrets is great but realistically I only get 2 spells. By the time I have 10 bard levels this campaign is 4/5 over. Lot of time until then.

I am leaning back towards favored soul now. There are too many holes in the bard spell list -- last time I had a cleric in the party, now I don't, and life domain favored soul lets me get essential spells such as Lesser Restoration (a big deal in this campaign), Revivify, Counterspell, Haste, Mirror Image, Polymorph, Dispel Magic, Slow, etc. There are good bard spells too but they don't fill as many holes.

(One issue with this party is that it is small and we have two DPS guys out, which leaves a lot of roles uncovered. This is why I am struggling.)

On the plus side, my DM has allowed me to use the polearm master / war caster combo. This I think I could have a lot of fun with (being able to cast a spell as someone enters your reach is much more interesting than as they are leaving it).

[joaber]

shadow sorcerer is allowed? At level 2 you can cast darkness for 1 sorc point and can see in that darkness (if you burn your spellslots you can cast 8 times a day at lvl 2). Can be variant human with darkvision and test Con to stay with 1 HP if you drop to 0.

[8wGremlin]

The 'drop a darkness with the ability to see in said darkness' is a viable tactic on paper, but every time i have seen it go off it always seems to backfire against the rest of the party. situationally brilliant though, but as a standard tactic be wary.

[charlesk]

The 'drop a darkness with the ability to see in said darkness' is a viable tactic on paper, but every time i have seen it go off it always seems to backfire against the rest of the party. situationally brilliant though, but as a standard tactic be wary.

Yep. And actually, my son is already playing a warlock with this gimmick so I wouldn't want to step on his toes. And he never casts Darkness for that exact reason.

A good idea though!

[charlesk]

Is it just me or does great weapon fighting stink if you are using a polearm? Seems like a pointlessly small increase in damage given the ruling that it doesn't apply to smite dice.

[charlesk]

Though I just realized that while rerolling 1s and 2s is bad on a d10 weapon, it's pretty nice on the d4 bonus attack...

[Oramac]

Though I just realized that while rerolling 1s and 2s is bad on a d10 weapon, it's pretty nice on the d4 bonus attack...

It's also really awesome on a 2d6 greatsword/maul. ;)

[charlesk]

When I did the math, even on a d4 it's only an extra average of 0.5 damage per attack. Probably +1 AC would be better.

I was just reading about polearm master / quarterstaff/ Shillelagh shenanigans. That seems like it could be some OP fun. But then I have to waste a slot on Magic Initiate or go back to druid! LOL.

[Taejang]

It's also really awesome on a 2d6 greatsword/maul. ;)


When I did the math, even on a d4 it's only an extra average of 0.5 damage per attack. Probably +1 AC would be better.
A d4 isn't best served by the reroll, since you have to take the second roll regardless of the number and there is a 50% chance it'll still be a 1-2. A d6 or higher starts to make more sense, because there is a wider gap between 1 and 6 (or 1 and 8, etc), and a better chance that the second roll will be better than a 1-2.

The 2d6 maul one of my players uses seems to work well with his rerolls. They help average his damage output so it is almost always 6-12 instead of 2-12. He also loves turning a 1 into a five, if for no other reason than the satisfaction it gives him to roll higher numbers on a damage dice.


I was just reading about polearm master / quarterstaff/ Shillelagh shenanigans. That seems like it could be some OP fun. But then I have to waste a slot on Magic Initiate or go back to druid! LOL.
I saw some discussion about it awhile back, let me dig it up for you... here we go (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2vuhf7/the_angry_mage_arcane_beatdowns_with_a_magic/). Some neat ideas here you could adapt, particularly if you can go variant human for the feat.

[charlesk]

That's a very cool build and fun to read, thanks! But it will take too long to pull together for this campaign. And my DM would probably hate/nerf it. :) Also, I can't do human basically because I need to have darkvision, not having it makes no sense for this character.

Greatsword is the best for GWF. If I stick with polearms it's probably not worth it.

My big problem with my current build plan will be stats. I will have to dump (or near dump) Dex, Int and Wis, and even so probably end up with 16 Str, 16 Con and 14 Cha. I can focus on non-DC Cha spells. It will be hard to bump my Str though because of how feat-heavy the build is. This means I am going to miss a lot, probably, and really focus on using the extra attacks from polearm master to "farm crits" I can smite with.

I wonder if a paladin / nature cleric build would work for the shillelagh polearm bit. I can get shillelagh from that. Then I only really need two stats: Wis and Con.

Or of course, back to druid.

Another tradeoff: quarterstaff gives no reach, and reach is very nice. But I could go with duelist, usually use a quarterstaff, then also carry a halberd for when reach was necessary.

[Taejang]

My big problem with my current build plan will be stats. I will have to dump (or near dump) Dex, Int and Wis, and even so probably end up with 16 Str, 16 Con and 14 Cha. I can focus on non-DC Cha spells. It will be hard to bump my Str though because of how feat-heavy the build is. This means I am going to miss a lot, probably, and really focus on using the extra attacks from polearm master to "farm crits" I can smite with.
The difference between 16 and 20 Str is only +2 on attack rolls. With bounded accuracy, that isn't a deal breaker. You can further mitigate it by gaining advantage on rolls (flaking, if you guys use that rule, is great for this, especially since there is another melee character in your party), or by targeting things with lower AC. Just ask your DM: "Say, what is that soldier wearing? Oh, plate? What about that guy? Studded leather? Alright, Mr. Tank, you go after the plate dude, I'll smash the leather guy."

[charlesk]

Well, +2 to hit also matters a lot because of bounded accuracy. If the monster AC is 18, the difference between +6 to hit and +8 to hit is hitting 20% more often. Also, +2 damage per hit. It's significant.

On the to-hit, I can cast Bless. But that applies regardless.

I am still considering this paladin/FVS concept. But also now thinking about barbarian 1 / paladin 2 / druid 2. I can put everything into Dex, Wis and Con. Barbarian rage allows me to go into wild shape and last twice as long. I can heal in wild form while raging without casting because it's not a spell. I can even smite in wild form.

When not in forum, I have Shillelagh and full casting. I can do the shield / quarterstaff / dueling trick with polearm master. And while I don't have the full complement of cleric spells, there are some good druid spells.

I don't need warcaster because a druid can use a quarterstaff as his focus.

Of course.. this leaves us with a tome-pact warlock as our only arcane. At least he has the rituals...

[Taejang]

Well, +2 to hit also matters a lot because of bounded accuracy. If the monster AC is 18, the difference between +6 to hit and +8 to hit is hitting 20% more often. Also, +2 damage per hit. It's significant.

On the to-hit, I can cast Bless. But that applies regardless.

I am still considering this paladin/FVS concept. But also now thinking about barbarian 1 / paladin 2 / druid 2. I can put everything into Dex, Wis and Con. Barbarian rage allows me to go into wild shape and last twice as long. I can heal in wild form while raging without casting because it's not a spell. I can even smite in wild form.

When not in forum, I have Shillelagh and full casting. I can do the shield / quarterstaff / dueling trick with polearm master. And while I don't have the full complement of cleric spells, there are some good druid spells.

I don't need warcaster because a druid can use a quarterstaff as his focus.

Of course.. this leaves us with a tome-pact warlock as our only arcane. At least he has the rituals...
True, but at lower levels you hopefully won't face too many enemies with 18 AC. And you did say the campaign was mostly below lvl 10, right?

But that build looks neat. I'd do that.

[charlesk]

Yah I think I am going to do that build. It has so much synergy.

Even the to-hit issue goes away. I crank up my Wis and use Shillalegh out of wild form, or bear/wolf to-hit in wild form (which won't be great but that's the cost of wild shape).

With barbarian unarmored defense, brown bear AC goes from the laughable 11 to the halfway-decent 13. Doesn't help dire wolf. But raging means twice the length of time in shape.

Lots of potential here. And a full divine caster.. only missing Revivify. And I can take Resilient/Con instead of Warcaster.

If I get either our arcane trickster or warlock to dip one wizard level, we can use wizard spells off scrolls.

[charlesk]

I just realized doing this requires 13 str and 13 cha for the multiclassing. I always forget about those. They are both dump stats for this build, so in the trash it goes. :(

Well, I can do it if I am okay with mediocre stats: 13, 14, 14, 8, 15, 13, which after racials becomes 13, 14, 16, 8, 16, 13. (Or DM is letting us either start with a feat or a 33-point build.) Viable, but not sure there's a lot of point using Shillelagh with a 16 wis, and I have to wait 2 more levels for my first feat. Having 13 strength as a moon druid is a complete waste. Bleh.

EDIT: Going to start a new thread.