Miyamoto Musashi v.s Guan Yu

[ArlEammon]

Guan Yu v.s Miyamoto Musashi

Guan Yu was capable of carrying around a 40-50, maybe even 100 pound glaive like weapon called a Guan Dao. Miyamoto Musashi carries around two katanas with his unique weapon style. Miyamoto Musashi was so skilled as a swordsman, no swordsman in Japan would ever match him again. Guan Yu was so skilled with his generalship and combat prowess he became known as a god after his death.

Assuming that these two warriors met. . . who would win?

[Dienekes]

Well one has had his exploits been turned into near legendary status where the actual truth of what he accomplished and how is questionable, and the other the best information we have for his successes in combat where his self written stories about how awesome he was.

My point being, in their own legends that have been built up around them, they're both unbeatable titans of combat whose exploits border on unrealistic or just flat out are impossible (a 40 lb glaive? Why? There's no reason to ever use such a weapon).

So we end up going with, in my opinion, what was the weapons of the time that they used and how they used them, and Miyamoto has about 1400 years of metallurgic and technological advancement on his equipment over Guan Yu.

[ArlEammon]

Well one has had his exploits been turned into near legendary status where the actual truth of what he accomplished and how is questionable, and the other the best information we have for his successes in combat where his self written stories about how awesome he was.

My point being, in their own legends that have been built up around them, they're both unbeatable titans of combat whose exploits border on unrealistic or just flat out are impossible (a 40 lb glaive? Why? There's no reason to ever use such a weapon).

So we end up going with, in my opinion, what was the weapons of the time that they used and how they used them, and Miyamoto has about 1400 years of metallurgic and technological advancement on his equipment over Guan Yu.

Guan Yu's weapon has a much farther reach, and someone who can use that as a weapon reliably on the battlefield can probably swing it extremely quickly to be worshiped as a deity.

[Killer Angel]

Guan Yu's weapon has a much farther reach, and someone who can use that as a weapon reliably on the battlefield can probably swing it extremely quickly to be worshiped as a deity.

A good reach could be useless if the enemy is quicker

[Brother Oni]

Guan Yu v.s Miyamoto Musashi

Guan Yu was capable of carrying around a 40-50, maybe even 100 pound glaive like weapon called a Guan Dao. Miyamoto Musashi carries around two katanas with his unique weapon style. Miyamoto Musashi was so skilled as a swordsman, no swordsman in Japan would ever match him again. Guan Yu was so skilled with his generalship and combat prowess he became known as a god after his death.

Assuming that these two warriors met. . . who would win?

Fixing some inaccuracies first: the Green Dragon Crescent Blade is listed as 82 catties in Romance of the Three Kingdoms, making it a hair under 40lbs using Han Dynasty measurements. Guan Yu also didn't just become known as a god, he became a god - he was deified in the 7th Century.

The scenario needs more information (are they facing each other on a featureless plain, are they armed and armoured appropriately, mounted or not, etc), so I'm just going to mention my initial thoughts and will refine later:

Using the legendary depiction of Guan Yu from Romance, you have a mounted polearm user versus a twin katana armed samurai (as per your guidelines, rather than the sword/oar he used against Sasaki Kojiro). Assuming equal armour, my money's on the cavalryman with the weapon better at defeating armour, has a longer reach, can also dictate range and has a significant mass advantage. This isn't assuming that he isn't carrying his bow and thus could pepper Musashi at leisure (he had the rank of mounted archer during the Yellow Turban Rebellion).

If they were both on foot, then things get more interesting. Miyamoto was known for his psychological warfare tricks (see the aforementioned duel against Sasaki Kojiro), which wouldn't necessarily work against Guan Yu with the gulf in culture and language. I don't know enough about the Nitenichiryu style to judge, but unlike later Edo period samurai, Miyamoto fought during the Sengoku Jidai, so his sword style would be rooted in practicality (later samurai had a great deal of problems with non-Japanese fighting styles to the extent that samurai were banned from fighting with British sailors as they kept on losing), giving him more of a chance.



My point being, in their own legends that have been built up around them, they're both unbeatable titans of combat whose exploits border on unrealistic or just flat out are impossible (a 40 lb glaive? Why? There's no reason to ever use such a weapon).

So we end up going with, in my opinion, what was the weapons of the time that they used and how they used them, and Miyamoto has about 1400 years of metallurgic and technological advancement on his equipment over Guan Yu.

Guan Yu primarily fought while mounted, thus the weight of the guan dao he was reported to use wouldn't be as significant an issue (let the momentum of the horse do all the work). In reality, it was far more likely he would have fought with a ji (halberd).

I wouldn't say that 1400 years of metallurgic and technological developments give as great an advantage as you'd expect in this case, given the typically mediocre quality of Japanese steel and the quality of Han era metalworking.

[Dienekes]

Fixing some inaccuracies first: the Green Dragon Crescent Blade is listed as 82 catties in Romance of the Three Kingdoms, making it a hair under 40lbs using Han Dynasty measurements. Guan Yu also didn't just become known as a god, he became a god - he was deified in the 7th Century.

The scenario needs more information (are they facing each other on a featureless plain, are they armed and armoured appropriately, mounted or not, etc), so I'm just going to mention my initial thoughts and will refine later:

Using the legendary depiction of Guan Yu from Romance, you have a mounted polearm user versus a twin katana armed samurai (as per your guidelines, rather than the sword/oar he used against Sasaki Kojiro). Assuming equal armour, my money's on the cavalryman with the weapon better at defeating armour, has a longer reach, can also dictate range and has a significant mass advantage. This isn't assuming that he isn't carrying his bow and thus could pepper Musashi at leisure (he had the rank of mounted archer during the Yellow Turban Rebellion).

If they were both on foot, then things get more interesting. Miyamoto was known for his psychological warfare tricks (see the aforementioned duel against Sasaki Kojiro), which wouldn't necessarily work against Guan Yu with the gulf in culture and language. I don't know enough about the Nitenichiryu style to judge, but unlike later Edo period samurai, Miyamoto fought during the Sengoku Jidai, so his sword style would be rooted in practicality (later samurai had a great deal of problems with non-Japanese fighting styles to the extent that samurai were banned from fighting with British sailors as they kept on losing), giving him more of a chance.



Guan Yu primarily fought while mounted, thus the weight of the guan dao he was reported to use wouldn't be as significant an issue (let the momentum of the horse do all the work). In reality, it was far more likely he would have fought with a ji (halberd).

I wouldn't say that 1400 years of metallurgic and technological developments give as great an advantage as you'd expect in this case, given the typically mediocre quality of Japanese steel and the quality of Han era metalworking.

Even then, the heaviest lances are only around 15 lbs, a bit less than 20 is (I think) the heaviest I've seen. There is no benefit to going into combat with a 40 lb lance. My point, both these people's exploits are likely exaggerated, making an attempt to think up who is a better martial artist a rather futile endeavor.

You are probably right that the years of development may not have the effect that I originally perceived. I know that Japanese metal was poor and that their metallurgy worked around that fact, but I am admittedly not that well aware on the state of equipment during the Three Kingdoms era in China. I would ask what armor was available to them at the time, and, please forgive my ignorance on this one, but it's been years since I've read Miyamoto's accounts did Miyamoto wear armor during his duels?

[Raimun]

Well one has had his exploits been turned into near legendary status where the actual truth of what he accomplished and how is questionable, and the other the best information we have for his successes in combat where his self written stories about how awesome he was.

Okay, that settles it. Musashi would win. He was totally awesome in that book.

Plus everyone knows katanas are just better. :smalltongue:

[Brother Oni]

Even then, the heaviest lances are only around 15 lbs, a bit less than 20 is (I think) the heaviest I've seen. There is no benefit to going into combat with a 40 lb lance. My point, both these people's exploits are likely exaggerated, making an attempt to think up who is a better martial artist a rather futile endeavor.

I believe the goal was to compare the legends of their martial prowess against each other, rather than to break it down into the nitty-gritty of the real Guan Yu and Miyamoto Musashi squaring off. As I mentioned, it would be far more likely that Guan Yu would have used a typical 6-13lb ji.

If you thought that 82 catty guan dao was ridiculous, there was Dian Wei, a Wei general famed for his strength, who dual wielded a pair of 80 catty ji in Romance. While plotting the assassination of Cao Cao, one conspirator mentioned that Dian Wei and his weapons would be a problem, to which the other replied "only while mounted".



You are probably right that the years of development may not have the effect that I originally perceived. I know that Japanese metal was poor and that their metallurgy worked around that fact, but I am admittedly not that well aware on the state of equipment during the Three Kingdoms era in China. I would ask what armor was available to them at the time, and, please forgive my ignorance on this one, but it's been years since I've read Miyamoto's accounts did Miyamoto wear armor during his duels?

Han era armour would normally be iron lamellar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamellar_armour) or coat of plates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_plates), so probably a bit more protection than mail (which was very effective against katana). Given Guan Yu's later status, he would most likely be wearing the steel version of this armour (the most expensive type).
Barding was also introduced about this time, so Guan Yu's horse would also be fully kitted out (heavy cavalry were used as shock troops around this period).

During the Sengoku Jidai, Miyamoto would most likely be wearing gusoku type armour, which is the one most thought of when 'samurai armour' is mentioned, rather than the massive lamellar O-yoroi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8C-yoroi):

http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz238/estcrh/zgusoku222.jpg~original

It's very flexible, fairly light and offers good protection against swords - there's a fighting style of armoured grappling much like western styles, where a samurai tries to get sufficient advantage over his opponent to ram his sword into an unprotected part (sorry katana enthusiasts, it can't cut through armour).

A quick check of his duels indicate that the large majority of them were unarmoured bouts, where he typically used a bokken (wooden sword) since the fights were not to the death. As anybody's who sparred with bokken can testify though, they're plenty lethal enough.
In the interests of fairness though, Miyamoto should also be armoured as well.

Without further information regarding this match up, I'm still inclined to give it to the cavalryman, but I concede that both have had their abilities inflated by their legends and other PR.

Now if it were Miyamoto Musashi against Lu Bu, I'm sorry but the Wa Kingdom inhabitant is losing that fight. :smalltongue:

[Professor Gnoll]

Miyamoto was also famous for his ability to quickly adapt to different fighting styles.

[Zaydos]

I will note that Musashi didn't just duel wield katana he wielded what is sometimes called a daikatana, and was called in his time an "old school" (Old Style? It's been years since I visited the katana museum or read anything about Musashi) katana which was... well several inches longer than a modern katana and was the favorite for cavalry in the Warring States period, though he didn't use it in his offhand at least according to artwork and it is implied in the book of 5 rings when he suggests training by duel wielding katanas even if you're intending to wield a small offhand weapon.

And Musashi wasn't just famous for adapting to fighting styles, he was famous for stealing people's naginatas. We're talking about a guy who: killed his first man, using a bokken or a stick against a trained swordsman, at 13 (this would be a little before the Battle of Sekigahara as that's the only major battle he's supposed to have fought in... for the losing side); defeated a group of trained swordsman with a piece of fire kindling; who fought an entire popular swordschool while still far from his legendary status; who fought the warrior-monks of mount Heie for fun and beat at least one by grabbing his glaive and flinging him about with it (whole story about how he had to learn and adapt to fighting massive pole-weapons in there); and who thought "you know what would be fun? Fighting a whole group of bandits without armor and only using weapons I steal from them" and then went out and beat them while stealing their weapons from their hands. Also according to the Book of Five Rings Musashi preferred the bokken because in an unarmored bout it was deadlier since there was no chance the blade flew from the hilt and got you stabbed (this was apparently a common problem with katanas).

Guan Yu... I never finished the first of the four volumes of Romance so I can't say much about how this would go. Just noting that the legend surrounding Musashi is a lot bigger than it's being given credit for, and it's hard to tell what is real and what is apocryphal.

[Brother Oni]

I will note that Musashi didn't just duel wield katana he wielded what is sometimes called a daikatana...

There's no such weapon as the daikatana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daikatana) outside of a major translating error which was used in a flop video game. From what I read, his long sword was an odachi variant and he proposed a particular grip for it.



Guan Yu... I never finished the first of the four volumes of Romance so I can't say much about how this would go. Just noting that the legend surrounding Musashi is a lot bigger than it's being given credit for, and it's hard to tell what is real and what is apocryphal.

There's a number of fictitious and apocryphal stories about Guan Yu proving his prowess; his crossing of 5 passes and killing 6 generals when leaving Cao Cao's service; the Battle of Sishui Pass where he's offered a cup of warm wine before a duel but declines then kills his opponent (Hua Xiong) and is back before the wine is cold.

Despite all this, Guan Yu acknowledges that his younger brother, Zhang Fei, is more powerful than him to Cao Cao, and Cao Cao informs all his offers to make note of that name so as to avoid facing him. At the Battle of Changban, Zhang Fei held a bridge against the entire Wei army and his bellowed challenge to the enemy caused two Wei officers to drop dead from fright (now that's what I call an Epic level Intimidate check!).

There's a Chinese saying 'the young shouldn't read the Water Margin, while the old shouldn't read Three Kingdoms'; the Water Margin celebrates machismo and other anti-social behaviour that would unduly influence the young and impressionable, while Three Kingdoms is full of sneaky tricks and other social/political chicanery that the old should really know better than to use. So I put it to you that you should finish reading Three Kingdoms before you become old. :smalltongue: