Zaq
2016-01-18, 03:31 PM
So, being PHB base classes and all, both Rangers and Druids have a lot of ACFs. PHB Ranger is a pretty uninteresting class (nice chassis, but totally forgettable class features most of the time), while PHB Druid is one of the most powerful classes in the game (famously good from 1 to 20 with no real benefit from dips or PrCs, which basically can't be said for any other PHB class).
But when ACFs get involved, things change. There are a lot of Ranger ACFs that make them quite a bit more powerful (Wildshape Ranger being the biggest example), especially since what they're trading away usually isn't that great in the long run. Druid ACFs, in contrast, almost always make them weaker, since what they get is almost never worth what they're giving up.
The base Druid is unquestionably more powerful than the base Ranger. There's not even a contest. But the two classes are pretty strongly thematically linked, so comparisons are inevitable. My question for today is this: if we take as many ACFs as possible and tweak the Ranger and the Druid as much as the rules allow, what does the comparison look like? (I'm still pretty sure that the Druid is going to come out on top at level 20, because there just plain aren't any ACFs that hold a candle to 9th level spells, but this is more just a thought experiment than an actual attempt to nerf the Druid . . . and there are a lot of levels before 20, so it'd be interesting to see the comparison along the way.)
Of course, since there are SO many ACFs out there, there's a lot of variation in how we can go about doing this. Most Druid ACFs give up something, but some of them give up more than others (or get more in return than others); nearly any ACF-heavy Druid build is going to compare unfavorably to a PHB Druid, but some will be worse than others. And while many Ranger ACFs are good, there are definitely some that aren't, and of course there's no shortage of ACFs that overlap and aren't compatible with each other, so we can make the resulting builds stronger or weaker by prioritizing different ACFs. And obviously, different aspects of the builds beyond the ACFs could be used to sandbag or bolster the build in question: of course you can nerf a Druid by dumping WIS and spending all your feats on Skill Focus for obscure Profession skills, but that's not the spirit of what I'm talking about here. Feats are another issue; do we want to assume that both classes have access to top-notch feats like Natural Spell and Sword of the Arcane Order, or do we want to be as close to feat-agnostic as possible? And I think in general, we should assume that we're going to make a good-faith effort to use the ACFs we take whenever possible. But that's where the discussion comes in. Let's have some fun with this, after all.
Anyway, let's get started.
We can start making the Druid less powerful by applying the two ACFs from PHB2: Shapeshift and Spontaneous Rejuvenation. The ability to grant a small amount of Fast Healing is nowhere near as good as the ability to just summon bears on the fly, and of course Shapeshift gives up the animal companion and Wild Shape for a series of small bonuses that preclude casting and that don't overwrite your physical stats (and that are nowhere near as versatile as Wild Shape). Druid-style prepared casting (access to every Druid spell ever for free) is definitely more powerful than spontaneous casting, so applying the Spontaneous Druid ACF from Unearthed Arcana nerfs their spell access quite a bit. Druids do have other minor class features, but they're harder to give away; still, the Root Walker ACF from Dungeonscape gives up Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, and Resist Nature's Lure, so if we're truly maxing out our ACFs, that should probably be included.
Shapeshift isn't the be-all, end-all of Druid ACFs, of course. There are other things you can trade Wild Shape for. There's the City Soul version from Cityscape, which opens up vermin. There's the Aspect of Nature thing from Unearthed Arcana. And if we still have the animal companion to give away, we can take Druidic Avenger from Unearthed Arcana, gaining Fast Movement and Rage (which will, of course, interfere with spells). We could just take the Unearthed Arcana option that trades armor proficiency and Wild Shape for some Monk stuff and Ranger-style Track and Favored Enemy. Lots of options to choose from.
Taking a look at the Ranger for a moment, the first and most obvious power-boosting ACF is taking the Wild Shape Ranger ACF from Unearthed Arcana. That gives up the combat style; noticeable, but still a winning trade. (That nets us Barb-style Fast Movement, too.) I'm fond of using the ACF from Complete Champion to trade Wild Empathy for Speak With Animals / Speak With Plants a few times a day.
Spells, of course, are a point of contention. If we were trying to nerf the Ranger, we've got a few options for giving up our spells for not-exactly-great returns (both Complete Champion and Complete Warrior offer bonus feats in exchange for Ranger spells, though neither is a wise option.) If we can dip into possibly one of the most beloved bits of Dragon, though, the Mystic Ranger actually expands Ranger spell access quite a bit. (Unfortunately, I don't actually have that issue of Dragon, so I'm going off hearsay and stuff I've gathered from the forums over the years on the Mystic Ranger—and critically, I don't remember what the Mystic Ranger trades away, so I don't know which other ACFs are and aren't compatible with it.)
Dungeonscape lets us trade Track for Trapfinding; which is more useful depends on the campaign, but if we're trying to cram as many ACFs as possible onto one character, we should probably take it. If we can still give away the animal companion, we definitely should; PHB2's Distracting Attack is almost guaranteed to be more powerful than the Ranger's nerfed pet. I don't know of much that directly trades away Favored Enemy, but if we can't give it up entirely, taking FE: Arcanists (from Complete Mage) is generally considered to be a decent idea. I personally believe that it's better to have Evasion than Spell Reflection (also from Complete Mage), but again, if we're trying to use every ACF possible, in it goes.
I'm sure there's plenty of possibilities out there that you can come up with. Like I said, at the game's highest levels, I'm still pretty sure that high-level Druid spells are going to win the day, even if the Druid has a list of spells known (instead of preparing from every book ever) and can't spontaneously summon and can't cast while Shapeshifted or Raging or whatever. But there's a lot of levels where high-level spells aren't an issue. If Mystic Ranger is on the table, Rangers can still bring a lot of magic to the field for a good chunk of the game; not as much as a 9th-level caster like the Druid, but enough that they're definitely not muggles. Are there any level ranges where the two classes end up being pretty close in power? Is there anything surprising that can come out of this? I'm not expecting to actually make the Ranger more powerful than the Druid, but I'm interested in seeing what we can come up with and if there are any interesting ACF combos that I'd never seen before.
But when ACFs get involved, things change. There are a lot of Ranger ACFs that make them quite a bit more powerful (Wildshape Ranger being the biggest example), especially since what they're trading away usually isn't that great in the long run. Druid ACFs, in contrast, almost always make them weaker, since what they get is almost never worth what they're giving up.
The base Druid is unquestionably more powerful than the base Ranger. There's not even a contest. But the two classes are pretty strongly thematically linked, so comparisons are inevitable. My question for today is this: if we take as many ACFs as possible and tweak the Ranger and the Druid as much as the rules allow, what does the comparison look like? (I'm still pretty sure that the Druid is going to come out on top at level 20, because there just plain aren't any ACFs that hold a candle to 9th level spells, but this is more just a thought experiment than an actual attempt to nerf the Druid . . . and there are a lot of levels before 20, so it'd be interesting to see the comparison along the way.)
Of course, since there are SO many ACFs out there, there's a lot of variation in how we can go about doing this. Most Druid ACFs give up something, but some of them give up more than others (or get more in return than others); nearly any ACF-heavy Druid build is going to compare unfavorably to a PHB Druid, but some will be worse than others. And while many Ranger ACFs are good, there are definitely some that aren't, and of course there's no shortage of ACFs that overlap and aren't compatible with each other, so we can make the resulting builds stronger or weaker by prioritizing different ACFs. And obviously, different aspects of the builds beyond the ACFs could be used to sandbag or bolster the build in question: of course you can nerf a Druid by dumping WIS and spending all your feats on Skill Focus for obscure Profession skills, but that's not the spirit of what I'm talking about here. Feats are another issue; do we want to assume that both classes have access to top-notch feats like Natural Spell and Sword of the Arcane Order, or do we want to be as close to feat-agnostic as possible? And I think in general, we should assume that we're going to make a good-faith effort to use the ACFs we take whenever possible. But that's where the discussion comes in. Let's have some fun with this, after all.
Anyway, let's get started.
We can start making the Druid less powerful by applying the two ACFs from PHB2: Shapeshift and Spontaneous Rejuvenation. The ability to grant a small amount of Fast Healing is nowhere near as good as the ability to just summon bears on the fly, and of course Shapeshift gives up the animal companion and Wild Shape for a series of small bonuses that preclude casting and that don't overwrite your physical stats (and that are nowhere near as versatile as Wild Shape). Druid-style prepared casting (access to every Druid spell ever for free) is definitely more powerful than spontaneous casting, so applying the Spontaneous Druid ACF from Unearthed Arcana nerfs their spell access quite a bit. Druids do have other minor class features, but they're harder to give away; still, the Root Walker ACF from Dungeonscape gives up Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, and Resist Nature's Lure, so if we're truly maxing out our ACFs, that should probably be included.
Shapeshift isn't the be-all, end-all of Druid ACFs, of course. There are other things you can trade Wild Shape for. There's the City Soul version from Cityscape, which opens up vermin. There's the Aspect of Nature thing from Unearthed Arcana. And if we still have the animal companion to give away, we can take Druidic Avenger from Unearthed Arcana, gaining Fast Movement and Rage (which will, of course, interfere with spells). We could just take the Unearthed Arcana option that trades armor proficiency and Wild Shape for some Monk stuff and Ranger-style Track and Favored Enemy. Lots of options to choose from.
Taking a look at the Ranger for a moment, the first and most obvious power-boosting ACF is taking the Wild Shape Ranger ACF from Unearthed Arcana. That gives up the combat style; noticeable, but still a winning trade. (That nets us Barb-style Fast Movement, too.) I'm fond of using the ACF from Complete Champion to trade Wild Empathy for Speak With Animals / Speak With Plants a few times a day.
Spells, of course, are a point of contention. If we were trying to nerf the Ranger, we've got a few options for giving up our spells for not-exactly-great returns (both Complete Champion and Complete Warrior offer bonus feats in exchange for Ranger spells, though neither is a wise option.) If we can dip into possibly one of the most beloved bits of Dragon, though, the Mystic Ranger actually expands Ranger spell access quite a bit. (Unfortunately, I don't actually have that issue of Dragon, so I'm going off hearsay and stuff I've gathered from the forums over the years on the Mystic Ranger—and critically, I don't remember what the Mystic Ranger trades away, so I don't know which other ACFs are and aren't compatible with it.)
Dungeonscape lets us trade Track for Trapfinding; which is more useful depends on the campaign, but if we're trying to cram as many ACFs as possible onto one character, we should probably take it. If we can still give away the animal companion, we definitely should; PHB2's Distracting Attack is almost guaranteed to be more powerful than the Ranger's nerfed pet. I don't know of much that directly trades away Favored Enemy, but if we can't give it up entirely, taking FE: Arcanists (from Complete Mage) is generally considered to be a decent idea. I personally believe that it's better to have Evasion than Spell Reflection (also from Complete Mage), but again, if we're trying to use every ACF possible, in it goes.
I'm sure there's plenty of possibilities out there that you can come up with. Like I said, at the game's highest levels, I'm still pretty sure that high-level Druid spells are going to win the day, even if the Druid has a list of spells known (instead of preparing from every book ever) and can't spontaneously summon and can't cast while Shapeshifted or Raging or whatever. But there's a lot of levels where high-level spells aren't an issue. If Mystic Ranger is on the table, Rangers can still bring a lot of magic to the field for a good chunk of the game; not as much as a 9th-level caster like the Druid, but enough that they're definitely not muggles. Are there any level ranges where the two classes end up being pretty close in power? Is there anything surprising that can come out of this? I'm not expecting to actually make the Ranger more powerful than the Druid, but I'm interested in seeing what we can come up with and if there are any interesting ACF combos that I'd never seen before.