Dragon Shaman fix

[Buufreak]

Okay, so the past few days we have seen a great sum of discussing about DFA and DS, and I saw two consensus: DFA > DS, and DFA has a caster feel, while DS has a (slightly) melee feel. So, what would you do in particular to make it feel more geared to the combat side of those big flying lizards we all love so much?

Personally, I was looking at rework of auras, or potentially removing them (they just don't really fit the feel), boost to BAB, maybe natural weapons, wings sooner... What else?

[Beheld]

Okay, so the past few days we have seen a great sum of discussing about DFA and DS, and I saw two consensus: DFA > DS, and DFA has a caster feel, while DS has a (slightly) melee feel. So, what would you do in particular to make it feel more geared to the combat side of those big flying lizards we all love so much?

Personally, I was looking at rework of auras, or potentially removing them (they just don't really fit the feel), boost to BAB, maybe natural weapons, wings sooner... What else?

The first question I would ask is: What possible reason is there to play a Dragon Shaman instead of a Dragon? And if your only answer is "Because Dragons are ****ed over by LA and HD that make them level 10 PCs when they are CR 3 enemies." I suggest that instead of making a Dragon Shaman Class from scratch (because you would basically have to) make a Dragon class from scratch instead.

Any other answer would have to know what possible reason you want to play a Dragon Shaman instead of a Dragon.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The DS is actually really easy to houserule into competence.

Boost the auras (I'd say let the aura bonus equal your Charisma or class level, whichever is lower, but there are plenty of ways to do it)
Boost the breath weapon (I'd say d10/level, to match the big bad dragons)
Boost the chassis (I'd say full BAB and 4+Int skill points/level, but you could tie the skill boost to your Totem Dragon bit-- full ranks in the new class skills would work alright).
Grant abilities at a reasonable level (I'd say breath weapon at 1st and wings at 6th-8th)

I mean, you could do more-- Dragonblooded as a bonus feat at first, bonus Draconic or Metabreath feats every few levels, improve the NA bonus (Make it equal to your Con?), add more draconic features like claws and bite attacks-- but you get the idea.
This. To expand slightly:

Gain a bite at 3rd, wings at 6th, claws at 9th, a tail slap at 12th, and wing buffets at 15th. Maybe increase in size one category at 18th and be able to transform into a dragon of your size at 20th, as a capstone.
Gain Dragonblooded as a bonus feat at first level, and the bonus feats every fourth level.

[Malimar]

The first question I would ask is: What possible reason is there to play a Dragon Shaman instead of a Dragon? And if your only answer is "Because Dragons are ****ed over by LA and HD that make them level 10 PCs when they are CR 3 enemies." I suggest that instead of making a Dragon Shaman Class from scratch (because you would basically have to) make a Dragon class from scratch instead.

Any other answer would have to know what possible reason you want to play a Dragon Shaman instead of a Dragon.

I see this question as rather equivalent to "Why play a cleric instead of a god?"

The answer: because gods/dragons aren't conceptually fit for PC use, but people who brownnose to gods/dragons is a perfectly valid character archetype.

[AmberVael]

One of the common things I've seen is just mashing DFA and DS together. DFA is cool, but not so good that it couldn't use a bit of a power and versatility boost, and its not like DS has a lot of stuff.

In the recent thread I believe you're referring to, totemist was brought up. Giving Dragon Shaman incarnum or a similar mechanic could really work out, especially with a natural attack theme to totemist. It would definitely give the flavor of a dragon worshiper to channel mystical power towards becoming a monstrous killing machine.

[Beheld]

I see this question as rather equivalent to "Why play a cleric instead of a god?"

The answer: because gods/dragons aren't conceptually fit for PC use, but people who brownnose to gods/dragons is a perfectly valid character archetype.

Except that unlike Gods, Dragons are totally suited to PC use. They go from 2-20 instead of 21-40. All their abilities are suited to characters in that level range. They interact with, talk to, and work with and against the same threats and problems that PCs face, they use the same methods that PCs use, and their goals are distinctly PC like and not at all godlike.

I really cannot comprehend why you would want to play a character that brownnoses to a level 2 threat, probably because you don't want to. What does a Dragon Shaman character bring to anything that a Dragon doesn't as well?

[dascarletm]

I think the aim for dragon shamans shouldn't be to emulate what dragons do, but to be... well, a shaman of dragons. Getting supportive class features can fit the feel of a shaman.

I use a "fixed" version of them in a game I run where dragons are the ruling class in some areas of the world. I give them


Full BaB
Martial Weapon Prof
4+Int Mod Skills
Two auras active for free at level 6. If they take the feat at level 12 they get 3 auras.
Flight at level 5. Starts at your base speed, Average maneuverability. At level 9 gain 60ft Good maneuverability. Level 13 gain 90ft. At level 19 120ft.
Breath Weapon starts at level 2, d10's increasing at every even level thereafter. Charisma mod is added as a static bonus to this.
Auras add charisma mod to their static bonus.
May swap skill focus feats for a meta-breath feat.

I'm considering adding in more auras and possibly retooling how the current ones work.
I want to add a capstone. Perhaps the ability to transform into a dragon 1/day, or a way to negate meta-breath drawbacks?

[Troacctid]

I give them the invocations of a Dragonfire Adept of two levels lower.


while DS has a (slightly) melee feel.

Where are you getting that? They don't have any abilities that support a melee strategy. They don't even pass the "Better than an NPC Warrior" benchmark.

[dascarletm]

Where are you getting that? They don't have any abilities that support a melee strategy. They don't even pass the "Better than an NPC Warrior" benchmark.

I think the picture in the PHB 2 shows a spear wielder, so there is some influence there. Gaining NA also tells you to be in the thick of it. That tied with all your abilities generally being 30ft. ranged makes you want to be close to your enemies.

[AmberVael]

Where are you getting that? They don't have any abilities that support a melee strategy. They don't even pass the "Better than an NPC Warrior" benchmark.

Well I mean... what else are you gonna do with your turn? Auras don't take actions, you probably don't want to bother with healing in combat, and your short range breath weapon has a cool down. You also get bonus natural armor and a d10 for your hit die, and decent reason to pump Con.

Though I'll grant its not really that they have a ton going for them in terms of melee. Its more that they don't have anything else going for them.

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm gonna go a little off the rails

Maybe we should grab the summon monster X line, replace rounds with minutes. Populate it with all sorts of different dragons of the proper power levels, and give the "shaman" the ability to summon these dudes as a standard action. Make the lists depend on the good to evil axis. Commanding them takes a move action until 6th level, where commanding them changes to a swift. Each new level of the summon line shows up at the same time that it would for a sorcerer. Call dragon-spirit 1 at first, Call dragon-spirit 2 @ 4th, Call dragon -spirit 3 @ 6th. etc.

5 uses a day the Call-dragon ability.

Further, use the alternative rules for summoning where it is the same entities summoned each time. So they can have unique personalities. Fluff them as the spirits of dead dragons to which the shaman has built a rapport. That way, your auras also help your own darn self a bit. Each individual entity, if killed (reaching 0 HP), cannot be re-summoned until the next day. The feats and spells are customizable by player and DM, and they are encouraged to deviate from the normal statblock. Dragons cannot render any wish, limited wish, miracle, or spells or abilities that cost XP. When they die, anything that they summon or produce disappears with them.

You can use higher order Call dragon-spirit uses to increase the HD by two of the summoned creature on a list below it or the age category of a summoned true dragon by one, whichever the caster prefers (sometimes you'll want a tough small dragon for tunnel spelunking). So you can use call dragon spirit 3 for a phynxkin (on summon dragon spirt 1 list) with 4 extra HD or a very young white dragon (instead of a wyrmling [on the call dragon spirit 2 list])

Then just add a flight invocation around 6th or 7th level.

That captures a Dragon "Shaman" to me.

[Beheld]

Dragons cannot render any wish, limited wish, miracle, or spells or abilities that cost XP. When they die, anything that they summon or produce disappears with them.

Those are both already summon rules.

[zergling.exe]

Those are both already summon rules.

It was recently brought up that you may be able to force a summoned creature to use abilities that cost xp. Outright stating it just closes that loophole. I don't see why it would be a problem to have in there.

[Pluto!]

Add Bard spellcasting, using the same available spells known list as their patron flavor of dragon.

And, for little fluffy abilities, treat them as Dragonblooded at level 1, add 2 claw attacks at level 2, Darkvision at level 3, a Bite attack at level 6, Wings for limited flight at level 8 (rounds at a time = Con bonus), Blindsense at level 10 and 2 Wing attacks at level 11. Because Dragons.

[Rebel7284]

I think the aim for dragon shamans shouldn't be to emulate what dragons do, but to be... well, a shaman of dragons. Getting supportive class features can fit the feel of a shaman.


Looking at this, the most shaman thing I can think of is Druid casting. Give them that and they are suddenly a great class. Although still worse than a druid in most ways of course. :)

[Mr Adventurer]

My fix for DS: Full BAB, good Fort, Ref, and Will saves, 4 skill points, heavy armour proficiency (and maybe Martial weapons as well) and Bard spellcasting using Bard spells. Much more dragon-y and the Bard spells fill a 'shaman' slot nicely. Maybe add a couple of bonus feats from Races of the Dragon or Dragon Magic. EDIT: Almost forgot the most important bit: their breath weapon is a Swift Action!

EDIT: This could make them the Paladin to the Dragonfire Adept's Sorcerer. I'd think about boosting the DFA a little as well, probably something along the lines of doubling the area effect of the breath weapon and giving some ability to double up on breath effects.

[Zaydos]

When I actually tried to fix Dragon Totem Shaman it was by giving them Full BAB, earlier wings, and causing them to pick up the Half-Dragon template by level up.

Then I decided to just make new dragon themed classes because Auras don't really fit the dragon feel and once you take them from a DS you have really nothing worth noting from the class.

[ngilop]

I did a dragon shaman fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?330720-Dragon-Shaman-Please-Critque)if you want to take a look at it

[ComaVision]

One of the common things I've seen is just mashing DFA and DS together. DFA is cool, but not so good that it couldn't use a bit of a power and versatility boost, and its not like DS has a lot of stuff.


This is my favoured choice. They seem to fit the same niche theme, using breath attacks like a dragon.