5e War Cleric

[DracoKnight]

Okay...is it just me or does the War Cleric seem really lackluster? It has an excellent divine domain spell list, but its extra channel divinities seem "meh"*; the Divine Strike is appropriate, I feel; and then the Avatar of Battle feature is something that the base Barbarian has has since level 1...

*a +10 to hit before I know if I hit or missed is easy to waste...and giving it to an ally is slightly more useful, but it seems...lackluster. I worship a god of war, and I might possibly hit something really hard...once...per short rest.

[joaber]

I would say any cleric is lackluster.

(popcorn time)

[DracoKnight]

I would say any cleric is lackluster.

(popcorn time)

A couple of months ago, I would have agreed with you - but the arcana cleric, the light cleric, the tempest cleric, and the trickery cleric are all fantastic! Personally I haven't witnessed any of the other domains, other than life and war - and both of those sucked... :smalltongue:

[Flashy]

but the arcana cleric, the light cleric, the tempest cleric, and the trickery cleric are all fantastic!

If you don't mind my asking, what did you like about Trickery? It's wildly unpopular around these parts, and on paper I agree that it certainly doesn't look like much. I'm genuinely interested in knowing what shone about it in practice.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you don't mind my asking, what did you like about Trickery? It's wildly unpopular around these parts, and on paper I agree that it certainly doesn't look like much. I'm genuinely interested in knowing what shone about it in practice. It probably depends on the party make up and the campaign it is set in. I can see an RP heavy campaign getting a lot out of the Trickery domain.

[joaber]

A couple of months ago, I would have agreed with you - but the arcana cleric, the light cleric, the tempest cleric, and the trickery cleric are all fantastic! Personally I haven't witnessed any of the other domains, other than life and war - and both of those sucked... :smalltongue:

I can't see the "fantastic" part, maybe "good options" and better than the others cleric domains, but still behind of other classes.

Arcana domain only is really great at lvl 17th.

light cleric is for blasting, but sorcerer is way better in this.
tempest is the same, the feat at lvl 1 is good, but don't escalete, the second is really great, but the sorcerer can quick or twin one spell, to use a weapon, a paly will be better than the cleric, and the sorcerer can fly at lvl 14 instead of 17. I like invoke duplicity from trickster domain, unfortunately needs concentration. Still a wizard or a bard will have better spell support for that.

[Flashy]

It probably depends on the party make up and the campaign it is set in. I can see an RP heavy campaign getting a lot out of the Trickery domain.

For sure. I've found that the various domains often play way differently in practice than it seems like they will on paper, so I'm REAL interested in hearing people's opinions of Trickery from actual gameplay.

[Gwendol]

I can't see the "fantastic" part, maybe "good options" and better than the others cleric domains, but still behind of other classes.

Arcana domain only is really great at lvl 17th.

light cleric is for blasting, but sorcerer is way better in this.
tempest is the same, the feat at lvl 1 is good, but don't escalete, the second is really great, but the sorcerer can quick or twin one spell, to use a weapon, a paly will be better than the cleric, and the sorcerer can fly at lvl 14 instead of 17. I like invoke duplicity from trickster domain, unfortunately needs concentration. Still a wizard or a bard will have better spell support for that.

Eh, not sure what you are getting at, but the cleric can do quite a lot neither of the other caster classes can. Knowledge makes the cleric better at lore than the bard, and more versatile. Life clerics are great. Nature clerics can go all in on WIS thanks to Shillelagh.

[Lollerabe]

Well hopefully the sorcerer is better at blasting, the paladin better at smiting and the rogue better at sneaking otherwise why ever have anything but clerics in the party? You seem to leave out that a light cleric can blast but also has medium armor, shields, a d8 hd and full cleric spell progression to top it off.

On topic, ye the war cleric seems a bit lackluster to me too - the daily extra attacks being a bonus action annoys me a lot, when GWM, PAM, shield master are all feats that seems like something a war cleric might pickup, if not spiritual weapon is imo a pretty iconic 'war' spell, and that's also a BA.

The + 10 hit pr short rest is also pretty meh compared to other channel options, hell they could have made it 'you can turn a missed hit into a critical hit once per short rest' without breaking anything. It's not like the classes that could abuse this (I'm looking at you paladin) could do it without a steep price, 13+ wisdom to multi class into cleric and all.
Otherwise I'm extremely happy with how domains work in 5e, really changes the play style and feel of the class.

[RulesJD]

For what it's worth, it's the single best 1 level dip in the game.

All Armor, Shields, All weapons, Shield of Faith AND Divine Favor (great damage buff spell for melee) as domain spells, and Bonus attacks for when you occasionally don't get them (aka a Longbow user).

I wouldn't take it further than that, but that's a boat load of stuff for a 1 level dip.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The war cleric is so meh because all the other domains are really fricken good and the Paladin is really awesome.

Take the Paladin away and the war cleric looks a lot better.

Same thing with the nature cleric, they would be more appealing if the druid wasn't a class. I hear a lot of hate for nature cleric irl.

Of course I think druid and paladin should have been cleric subclasses (nature and war domains) from the start. It would be like making the fighter have the battlemaster and EK as subclasses and then have a champion as a class and not a subclass.

[Gwendol]

Eh, saying that a nature cleric is meh because Druid is overlooking the actual merits of the nature cleric. Dampen elements and Divine strike are quite good in their own right. Also, the spell list offers a variety to the cleric spells, something that the Land Druid has a harder time to get (can't be bothered to look over the various lists and compare with cleric spells right now), and Moon Druid simply don't.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Eh, saying that a nature cleric is meh because Druid is overlooking the actual merits of the nature cleric. Dampen elements and Divine strike are quite good in their own right. Also, the spell list offers a variety to the cleric spells, something that the Land Druid has a harder time to get (can't be bothered to look over the various lists and compare with cleric spells right now), and Moon Druid simply don't.

Oh yes, I know that the nature cleric is good, but the entire premise of the Nature cleric is way too similar to the druid. The druid is really redundant in a game that has a Nature Cleric.

Not just mechanically (spells) but fluff/lore.

Warcaster Nature Cleric "Animal Friendship" is a fantastically awesome and hilariously fun cleric set up.

[Oramac]

If you don't mind my asking, what did you like about Trickery? It's wildly unpopular around these parts, and on paper I agree that it certainly doesn't look like much. I'm genuinely interested in knowing what shone about it in practice.

I'm in a campaign right now with a guy who took 2 levels of Trickery Domain for Blessing of the Trickster and the Channel Divinity (which is really poorly written).

BotT grants the rogue basically permanent advantage on stealth checks

The Illusion from the Channel Divinity grants advantage to you, but the real broken-ish part is that the Illusion can't be damaged (there's no stat block nor wording that it either takes damage or uses any of the casting Clerics stats), and it is a "perfect illusion". So enemies might keep attacking it, not knowing which Cleric they see is the real one, which happens because you can cast spells out of the Illusion.

I wouldn't take more than 2 levels of Trickery, but those two levels are really powerful if your PC is creative.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Eh, saying that a nature cleric is meh because Druid is overlooking the actual merits of the nature cleric. Dampen elements and Divine strike are quite good in their own right. Also, the spell list offers a variety to the cleric spells, something that the Land Druid has a harder time to get (can't be bothered to look over the various lists and compare with cleric spells right now), and Moon Druid simply don't.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?475591-Nature-and-War-Domain-(Goodbye-Druid-Paladin)-(WIP)

Basic idea of what a druid should be. Just a nature cleric. Mine might be unbalanced as I took a few liberties and I was more interested in getting the feel right (specifically Acolyte of Nature) more so than balancing against other domains but I think it gets the point across.


Edit: I added a War Domain that is essentially the Paladin.

Both of these are first drafts and just to get my point across, not really meant to be seen as finished works or even works I put a lot of time into.

[Citan]

Oh yes, I know that the nature cleric is good, but the entire premise of the Nature cleric is way too similar to the druid. The druid is really redundant in a game that has a Nature Cleric.

Not just mechanically (spells) but fluff/lore.

Warcaster Nature Cleric "Animal Friendship" is a fantastically awesome and hilariously fun cleric set up.
If you have felt that way in a game with both Nature Cleric and Druid, then it would be only because of a lack of coordination/collaboration in the character's respective evolution (if I was mean, I would say that one of the two, or both, don't know how to play their classes).
They are different in every aspect with any level added.
First, their relationship with magic and divinities, religion in general.
Second, their spelllist: since they BOTH know ALL their spells so can freely change every day, it should be easy for each to take spells that reflect the most their class orientation to avoid any sad tip-toeing (to be extreme, Spirit Guardians on one side, Conjure Animals on the other).
Third, their mechanics: for RP tasks as in combat, WildShaping on one side makes a huge difference in how to tackle a mission.

So... No. Except at their first level (and even then it would be debatable), Nature Cleric and Druid are not redundant.


I'm in a campaign right now with a guy who took 2 levels of Trickery Domain for Blessing of the Trickster and the Channel Divinity (which is really poorly written).

BotT grants the rogue basically permanent advantage on stealth checks

The Illusion from the Channel Divinity grants advantage to you, but the real broken-ish part is that the Illusion can't be damaged (there's no stat block nor wording that it either takes damage or uses any of the casting Clerics stats), and it is a "perfect illusion". So enemies might keep attacking it, not knowing which Cleric they see is the real one, which happens because you can cast spells out of the Illusion.

I wouldn't take more than 2 levels of Trickery, but those two levels are really powerful if your PC is creative.
This. Most people really underestimate the potency of this Domain. Ah, you also forgot to mention that you get advantage on targets close to your Illusion, AND you can cast spells through it (meaning Cure Wounds rather than Healing Word if you can afford to take an action, or stabilizing an ally in the heat with Spare the Dying, or generally casting any spell at a safer distance than usual - since it's basically a relay - even if you still have to keep direct line of sight/hearing).
Having to concentrate on it if a bother though, but it can be worked with either as a pure class (even if it's certainly easier with multiclass to get more offense).

And did I mention the very nice spelllist (Mirror Image being one of the best non-concentration defense buff, Pass Without Trace to stealth your whole party, Polymorph to have fun)?

I had thought about 2 PNJ, brother and sister, who both went Trickery Cleric / Rogue, one Assassin, one Arcane Trickster, both being thus able to use the free Stealth buff on each other... :)

Back on topic...
I wouldn't be so harsh on War domain. I agree that the DC features are a bit limited, or, rather, their true potency depends on allies. In fact, that could be told from nearly all the War domain features... Divine Favor and Shield of Faith are good, but nearly always better spent on a "true" martial than on self. Crusader's Mantle is obviously good only if you have several martials (note that it works ALSO with ranged attacks though ;)).
The "Precision" CD of level 6 will feel really great if used to make, for example, a high-level smite attack hit, or a Sneak attack, but would be overkill on a mundane attack...

Because of this, maybe if I had a chance to play War Cleric I would be tempted to multiclass sometime. Or maybe not. I'm waiting for a chance to experience by myself. :)



http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?475591-Nature-and-War-Domain-(Goodbye-Druid-Paladin)-(WIP)

Basic idea of what a druid should be. Just a nature cleric. Mine might be unbalanced as I took a few liberties and I was more interested in getting the feel right (specifically Acolyte of Nature) more so than balancing against other domains but I think it gets the point across.
Edit: I added a War Domain that is essentially the Paladin.

Both of these are first drafts and just to get my point across, not really meant to be seen as finished works or even works I put a lot of time into.
I read it.
So, basically, you provide a streamlined, and very toned down versions of Paladin and Druid to say "these classes are useless, this is enough"?
Well, it's your opinion, not mine (and nore sure many will share yours).

This draft indeed reflects the "core" aspect of the base classes, let's say, the mechanical abilities that are the most associated to the "fluff" concept (WildShape + close relationship with animals for Druid, Smiting for Paladin) and is a nice proposition of subtype. But it makes them much much more limited in choices and playstyles than the true classes. Making in fact the point that its have a good reason to exist. :)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

If you have felt that way in a game with both Nature Cleric and Druid, then it would be only because of a lack of coordination/collaboration in the character's respective evolution (if I was mean, I would say that one of the two, or both, don't know how to play their classes).
They are different in every aspect with any level added.
First, their relationship with magic and divinities, religion in general.
Second, their spelllist: since they BOTH know ALL their spells so can freely change every day, it should be easy for each to take spells that reflect the most their class orientation to avoid any sad tip-toeing (to be extreme, Spirit Guardians on one side, Conjure Animals on the other).
Third, their mechanics: for RP tasks as in combat, WildShaping on one side makes a huge difference in how to tackle a mission.

So... No. Except at their first level (and even then it would be debatable), Nature Cleric and Druid are not redundant.


This. Most people really underestimate the potency of this Domain. Ah, you also forgot to mention that you get advantage on targets close to your Illusion, AND you can cast spells through it (meaning Cure Wounds rather than Healing Word if you can afford to take an action, or stabilizing an ally in the heat with Spare the Dying, or generally casting any spell at a safer distance than usual - since it's basically a relay - even if you still have to keep direct line of sight/hearing).
Having to concentrate on it if a bother though, but it can be worked with either as a pure class (even if it's certainly easier with multiclass to get more offense).

And did I mention the very nice spelllist (Mirror Image being one of the best non-concentration defense buff, Pass Without Trace to stealth your whole party, Polymorph to have fun)?

I had thought about 2 PNJ, brother and sister, who both went Trickery Cleric / Rogue, one Assassin, one Arcane Trickster, both being thus able to use the free Stealth buff on each other... :)

Back on topic...
I wouldn't be so harsh on War domain. I agree that the DC features are a bit limited, or, rather, their true potency depends on allies. In fact, that could be told from nearly all the War domain features... Divine Favor and Shield of Faith are good, but nearly always better spent on a "true" martial than on self. Crusader's Mantle is obviously good only if you have several martials (note that it works ALSO with ranged attacks though ;)).
The "Precision" CD of level 6 will feel really great if used to make, for example, a high-level smite attack hit, or a Sneak attack, but would be overkill on a mundane attack...

Because of this, maybe if I had a chance to play War Cleric I would be tempted to multiclass sometime. Or maybe not. I'm waiting for a chance to experience by myself. :)



I read it.
So, basically, you provide a streamlined, and very toned down versions of Paladin and Druid to say "these classes are useless, this is enough"?
Well, it's your opinion, not mine (and nore sure many will share yours).

This draft indeed reflects the "core" aspect of the base classes, let's say, the mechanical abilities that are the most associated to the "fluff" concept (WildShape + close relationship with animals for Druid, Smiting for Paladin) and is a nice proposition of subtype. But it makes them much much more limited in choices and playstyles than the true classes. Making in fact the point that its have a good reason to exist. :)


There is no good reason for the Paladin to exist as anything other than a Cleric subclass, unless it is a Fighter subclass.

You already have that role filled by the Cleric. Not just the War cleric but any cleric that has martial weapons and heavy armor. Divine Warrior is part of the Cleric's thing in this edition.

If you changed the Cleric up to where they didn't make the Paladin redundant, fluff or mechanically (divine caster with weapons), then you could add in the Paladin. As it right now, the Paladin is a waste of space and should have been a Cleric or Fighter subclass.

Perhaps if the Cleric had a more archivist/wizard type fluff where they don't go into heavy battle up front. But then you have to get rid of a lot that makes the Cleric the Cleric.

The Druid is the same way. All a Druid is, is a cleric with slightly different features. Even More so than the Paladin. I could see the Druid being a Barbarian or Cleric subclass very easily.

It isn't that there is already a War or Nature cleric, but that there is a Cleric.

I've played the hell out of the cleric, the only domain I haven't touched a lot would be the life cleric but my friends have that one covered.

Want to know what new players and veteran players say about the War Cleric?

"Why are they seperate things", "Are you playing a Paladin", and "I want my next character to be a War cleric but I don't want to step on the toes of your Paladin". If new and veteran players can't tell the difference during actual play then perhaps you need to examine the classes.

Multiple times I was asked things like above and that is what got me thinking about this.

It would be like if you took the EK fighter and made it it's own thing while the Fighter is right there as it's own class.

If you want the old school feel, taking these classes back to being subclasses would have been the way to go.

The way the game works is that the Cleric can be a specialist or a generalist depending on the day and what the player feels like. Want to be a Druid? The player can specialize as a druid (domain). There is a lot of overlap in their spell lists that you can still cast your typical cleric spells and be very druid-ish. Especially with the bonus spells and cantrips.

Overall the Paladin and Druid are a waste of space. They could have easily and effectively became subclasses. I did those quickly as an example of what it could look like. Just imagine what someone getting paid could make them look like.

[Gwendol]

I really can't agree with you. The cleric is an agent of a god, while the paladin is a champion of an ideal and the druid a protector or warden of nature.

Mechanically, the paladin is a martial half-caster with a summoned steed, good saves, and the ability to smite. The cleric is a full caster, and in the case of the war domain, with some extra martial abilities.

The druid is a full caster with a nature-themed spell list that can change shape into an animal. Additionally the player is asked to choose to enhance either the caster side of the class or the shape changing part.

Both the cleric, the paladin, and the druid are archetypes that exist outside of the game of D&D.

[Oramac]

I really can't agree with you. The cleric is an agent of a god, while the paladin is a champion of an ideal and the druid a protector or warden of nature.

Mechanically, the paladin is a martial half-caster with a summoned steed, good saves, and the ability to smite. The cleric is a full caster, and in the case of the war domain, with some extra martial abilities.

The druid is a full caster with a nature-themed spell list that can change shape into an animal. Additionally the player is asked to choose to enhance either the caster side of the class or the shape changing part.

Both the cleric, the paladin, and the druid are archetypes that exist outside of the game of D&D.

Agreed. Personally, I love my Paladins and would be extremely disappointed if they were a mere subclass.

(yes, I realize they were a subclass in AD&D. I don't care.)

[Citan]

I really can't agree with you. The cleric is an agent of a god, while the paladin is a champion of an ideal and the druid a protector or warden of nature.

Mechanically, the paladin is a martial half-caster with a summoned steed, good saves, and the ability to smite. The cleric is a full caster, and in the case of the war domain, with some extra martial abilities.

The druid is a full caster with a nature-themed spell list that can change shape into an animal. Additionally the player is asked to choose to enhance either the caster side of the class or the shape changing part.

Both the cleric, the paladin, and the druid are archetypes that exist outside of the game of D&D.
Thanks for proving the point in a much more concise manner than me. :)

Also, with just a minimum of coordination (which should be a given anyways in a group), I don't see why Paladin and War Cleric would tip-toe on each other (even considering the Devotion Oath which is probably the closest in terms of fluff to a Cleric)... Both have options enough to fill complementary roles instead of fighting for the same.
Even truer for Nature Cleric and Druid. :)

Anyways, we probably won't ever come to an understanding on this view, so for my part, we can each stand on our opinions and close the topic. :)

[WickerNipple]

Okay...is it just me or does the War Cleric seem really lackluster?

Yes, it is by far the worst of the cleric domains.

But it's still a cleric. :)

[Pex]

I can just imagine if War Domain was any better for those who complain about it you would get other people complaining it's too good and makes Fighter obsolete.

:smallsigh:

[EvilAnagram]

I can just imagine if War Domain was any better for those who complain about it you would get other people complaining it's too good and makes Fighter obsolete.

:smallsigh:
Welcome to the D&D meta.

[Gwendol]

I can just imagine if War Domain was any better for those who complain about it you would get other people complaining it's too good and makes Fighter obsolete.

:smallsigh:

LOL! Spot on!

[Dralnu]

I can just imagine if War Domain was any better for those who complain about it you would get other people complaining it's too good and makes Fighter obsolete.

:smallsigh:

/thread

War Domain is for clerics who want a bit of Fighter, that's all. You get proficiency in martial weapons and heavy armor, good. You get a worse limited version of Extra Attack starting at level 1(!!!) which is pretty darn good I think, it lets you hit hard with your two-handed weapon or whatever when you need to. Guided Strike isn't that bad, you'll have a pretty good idea when something will hit or not. If someone missed on a 16 earlier to hit and you roll a 14.. use it.

Divine Strike is even better for you than other Cleric due to War Priest. Avatar of Battle is always-on damage resistance, so it's better than basic Rage DR which is limited (until high lvls) and requires you to be Raging (better in situations where you wouldn't want to be Raged).

It's solid for what people want from it. As Pex said, if it was better then people would complain that full spellcasters are beating martials again.