I need some advice.

[UPSNate]

I'll try to make this short.

I am currently running a Forgotten Realms game. I have 4 players and for the most part three of them are great.
However one of them has begun to really get on my nerves as a DM. When we first started the game he would role play very well, really developing his character. Being the most experienced person that is a player atm the other three only playing in this game or possibly one other. They rely on him to be the party leader.
Recently he has begun to change plans typically as the party begins combat. Now things can change because combat is naturally a chaotic thing. The trouble is he has taken to playing a coward. Instead of protecting the party as a cleric he casts death ward/anything to make sure he doesn't die. Allowing a bard, monk, and wizard to fend off attackers. (Note this is the wizards first game.) In fact last nights game. The party came upon some ruins as they begun exploring them they awoke a mummy lord. Combat began and the monk started first. She attacked my mummy and it then went next it used a spell on her and removed her from the combat. The cleric player said that he'll use a spell to bring her back into combat.
I then described the mummy taking note of the clerics holy symbol of Lathander and furrowing at that. He decided to change his action to casting death ward on himself instead of helping his party. That is one of many recent examples of similar behavior and meta gaming. I also believe that he cheats on dice rolls as well. I don't have and proof other than he nearly always saves especially at crucial points. I do need to check his character sheet he made a save that was possible. However the number he told me he got seemed way to high. Yeah so after looking over his character sheet the number he told me was impossible to roll. sigh..
I have tried talking to him about that. It seems to work for a short period but he will inevitably slip back into those habits.
The other really awful habit he has developed is questioning me. Now allow me to explain.
He will talk to an npc. They give information or whatever it is. Then he will ask me as the dm questions to clarify. That in itself is fine. However it becomes blatantly obvious that what he tries to do is get me to tell him the answer to the adventure or what the best path to take is, in essence to win.

The other really REALLY annoying habit he has is to stifle the other players. So they are coming up with a solution to deal with a problem. No one really knows so naturally adventurers go digging dirt, looking for clues or what have you. They come up with a solution and then he'll stop them, talk over them, shoot down their idea, typically all that after not contributing anything. Then the questioning me cycle starts.

It stinks honestly I really love the story that I am telling, and all four of my players love it. They all at one point in time have come to me about it something he's done. Unfortunately I am starting to not want to run the game anymore because of it.

I am considering stripping him of his clerical powers. Though that probably wont do much. I mean it might solve his general cowardice and willingness to allow the party to die. However everything else I have got nothing.
Some advice would really be appreciated.

[nedz]

Recently he has begun to change plans typically as the party begins combat. Now things can change because combat is naturally a chaotic thing. The trouble is he has taken to playing a coward. Instead of protecting the party as a cleric he casts death ward/anything to make sure he doesn't die. Allowing a bard, monk, and wizard to fend off attackers. (Note this is the wizards first game.) In fact last nights game. The party came upon some ruins as they begun exploring them they awoke a mummy lord. Combat began and the monk started first. She attacked my mummy and it then went next it used a spell on her and removed her from the combat. The cleric player said that he'll use a spell to bring her back into combat. I then described the mummy taking note of the clerics holy symbol of Lathander and furrowing at that. He decided to change his action to casting death ward on himself instead of helping his party. That is one of many recent examples of similar behaviour and meta gaming.
That could just be him role-playing his character: he could choose to role-play it differently of course, but it is his choice. I'll come back to this later.

I also believe that he cheats on dice rolls as well. I don't have and proof other than he nearly always saves especially at crucial points. I do need to check his character sheet he made a save that was possible. However the number he told me he got seemed way to high. Yeah so after looking over his character sheet the number he told me was impossible to roll. sigh..
A break down of trust is never good.


The other really awful habit he has developed is questioning me. Now allow me to explain.
He will talk to an npc. They give information or whatever it is. Then he will ask me as the dm questions to clarify. That in itself is fine. However it becomes blatantly obvious that what he tries to do is get me to tell him the answer to the adventure or what the best path to take is, in essence to win.
You could: stay in character and have the NPC lie ?

However,

The normal advice in these parts for OOC problems is to talk to the player, but you seem to have done that.

I suspect that he is insecure, but I don't really know.

He's the most experienced player, the party's natural leader so he's under pressure - peer pressure.
Hence the cheating and the metagaming perhaps ?

Interestingly: I often suggest using peer pressure to fix this sort of issue. I've found it to be useful and often quite insightful for the feedback it generates - you get a different set of views from all the players.

It could also be a play-style thing, but I don't really have enough information to be sure about this.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Stripping him of cleric powers is definitely not the way to go. OOC problems should remain OOC.

Do you think it would help to give him some sort of 'safety net' feature, like a contingent teleport or revivify? That might make him a bit less worried about his character's survival.

[GreyBlack]

I'll try to make this short.

I am currently running a Forgotten Realms game. I have 4 players and for the most part three of them are great.
However one of them has begun to really get on my nerves as a DM. When we first started the game he would role play very well, really developing his character. Being the most experienced person that is a player atm the other three only playing in this game or possibly one other. They rely on him to be the party leader.
Recently he has begun to change plans typically as the party begins combat. Now things can change because combat is naturally a chaotic thing. The trouble is he has taken to playing a coward. Instead of protecting the party as a cleric he casts death ward/anything to make sure he doesn't die. Allowing a bard, monk, and wizard to fend off attackers. (Note this is the wizards first game.) In fact last nights game. The party came upon some ruins as they begun exploring them they awoke a mummy lord. Combat began and the monk started first. She attacked my mummy and it then went next it used a spell on her and removed her from the combat. The cleric player said that he'll use a spell to bring her back into combat.
I then described the mummy taking note of the clerics holy symbol of Lathander and furrowing at that. He decided to change his action to casting death ward on himself instead of helping his party. That is one of many recent examples of similar behavior and meta gaming. I also believe that he cheats on dice rolls as well. I don't have and proof other than he nearly always saves especially at crucial points. I do need to check his character sheet he made a save that was possible. However the number he told me he got seemed way to high. Yeah so after looking over his character sheet the number he told me was impossible to roll. sigh..
I have tried talking to him about that. It seems to work for a short period but he will inevitably slip back into those habits.
The other really awful habit he has developed is questioning me. Now allow me to explain.
He will talk to an npc. They give information or whatever it is. Then he will ask me as the dm questions to clarify. That in itself is fine. However it becomes blatantly obvious that what he tries to do is get me to tell him the answer to the adventure or what the best path to take is, in essence to win.

The other really REALLY annoying habit he has is to stifle the other players. So they are coming up with a solution to deal with a problem. No one really knows so naturally adventurers go digging dirt, looking for clues or what have you. They come up with a solution and then he'll stop them, talk over them, shoot down their idea, typically all that after not contributing anything. Then the questioning me cycle starts.

It stinks honestly I really love the story that I am telling, and all four of my players love it. They all at one point in time have come to me about it something he's done. Unfortunately I am starting to not want to run the game anymore because of it.

I am considering stripping him of his clerical powers. Though that probably wont do much. I mean it might solve his general cowardice and willingness to allow the party to die. However everything else I have got nothing.
Some advice would really be appreciated.

In the example of him changing his action, I would not have allowed it. He stated his action, to my mind, then the mummy noticed the holy symbol. You cannot change an action after you declare it.

Insofar as the questioning rule, you could try limiting the number of OOC questions the players are allowed to ask. The alternative, in social situations, is to force him to make sense motive checks, a skill he's almost certainly not leveling up, to try and weed out the information.

And, as to the dice rolling, just force everyone to roll on the table whew everyone can see. The die cannot be touched until you say it can. Implement it for all players, and if you have a question about a roll, ask him to walk you through how he got that number. This provides a learning opportunity for all the players, as it explains to them some of the rolls, and it helps you keep tabs on how everyone is rolling.

The final question is, what is the character's alignment? If he's playing any of the Goods, I would have his god strip him of his powers and force him to undertake a quest to regain them. File it under "Gross misconduct of a Cleric with regards to his god." Remember, Clerics have a CoC too, and Paladins aren't the only class with a stick up their butt as a class feature.

[John Longarrow]

As the others have said, OOC problems should be dealt with OOC.

I'd suggest having a one to one talk. If that doesn't work, talk to the group and have 5 minute discussion prior to one of the sessions. Simply put out some ground rules for all to follow. Don't single him out in this case. I had to do something similar for a group when one player had a nasty habit of playing on his phone/laptop instead of paying attention to sessions.

For the dice issue, I second having all players roll in the open. If there is a math question then you can address it quickly. Not everyone is perfect with their math, so some times letting these be open really does help. Give my GF four single digit numbers to add up and she's not very quick. I also need to double check her number. Its a reason she doesn't want to get into table top games... B-(

[vorpalvolta]

As far as the dice rolling goes, the above post made the best suggestion.

As far as the casting of death ward goes, that doesn't seem an unreasonable course of action when you kinda single him out as the next target of whatever nastiness hit the monk. Seems like an okay tactic to get that up first so if it happens to anyone else, he'll be able to handle it. Since if it happens to him they'd likely all be screwed. Going forward, I ask for Knowledge or Spellcraft checks to know what the proper defense would be, as that was the only part that seemed like metagaming to me at all.

If you don't like his CHARACTER, that's a bummer. If the self-preservation style is creating a lot of conflict at the table, I'd suggest talking to the other players and seeing if they would be comfortable addressing it IC. Because I'd be disappointed if I was told OOC that I just don't get to play the character I had in mind. To me, this sounds like a great opportunity for role playing within the party.

But then again the people I play with are all close friends so we don't have to worry too much about feelings getting hurt or feeling singled out. We know game stuff is just game stuff and that's that. From what I gather reading the forums, not everyone's experience is like that.

Hope we've helped a little and your problem gets sorted!

[Quertus]

I'll try to make this short.

I am currently running a Forgotten Realms game. I have 4 players and for the most part three of them are great.
However one of them has begun to really get on my nerves as a DM. When we first started the game he would role play very well, really developing his character. Being the most experienced person that is a player atm the other three only playing in this game or possibly one other. They rely on him to be the party leader.
Recently he has begun to change plans typically as the party begins combat. Now things can change because combat is naturally a chaotic thing. The trouble is he has taken to playing a coward. Instead of protecting the party as a cleric he casts death ward/anything to make sure he doesn't die. Allowing a bard, monk, and wizard to fend off attackers. (Note this is the wizards first game.) In fact last nights game. The party came upon some ruins as they begun exploring them they awoke a mummy lord. Combat began and the monk started first. She attacked my mummy and it then went next it used a spell on her and removed her from the combat. The cleric player said that he'll use a spell to bring her back into combat.
I then described the mummy taking note of the clerics holy symbol of Lathander and furrowing at that. He decided to change his action to casting death ward on himself instead of helping his party. That is one of many recent examples of similar behavior and meta gaming. I also believe that he cheats on dice rolls as well. I don't have and proof other than he nearly always saves especially at crucial points. I do need to check his character sheet he made a save that was possible. However the number he told me he got seemed way to high. Yeah so after looking over his character sheet the number he told me was impossible to roll. sigh..
I have tried talking to him about that. It seems to work for a short period but he will inevitably slip back into those habits.
The other really awful habit he has developed is questioning me. Now allow me to explain.
He will talk to an npc. They give information or whatever it is. Then he will ask me as the dm questions to clarify. That in itself is fine. However it becomes blatantly obvious that what he tries to do is get me to tell him the answer to the adventure or what the best path to take is, in essence to win.

The other really REALLY annoying habit he has is to stifle the other players. So they are coming up with a solution to deal with a problem. No one really knows so naturally adventurers go digging dirt, looking for clues or what have you. They come up with a solution and then he'll stop them, talk over them, shoot down their idea, typically all that after not contributing anything. Then the questioning me cycle starts.

It stinks honestly I really love the story that I am telling, and all four of my players love it. They all at one point in time have come to me about it something he's done. Unfortunately I am starting to not want to run the game anymore because of it.

I am considering stripping him of his clerical powers. Though that probably wont do much. I mean it might solve his general cowardice and willingness to allow the party to die. However everything else I have got nothing.
Some advice would really be appreciated.

Cheating at the dice rolls is bad. But let's come back to that.

You say that he has changed. The question is, why has he changed?

You say that the mummy took note of his holy symbol. Sounds reasonable. He changed his mind about the best course of action after noticing that the mummy took note of his holy symbol. Also sounds reasonable.

He's the experienced player. He's letting the other players play, instead of just winning the game by himself. But when they come up with an idea that won't work, he will tell them that it won't work, and tell them why it won't work. Sounds reasonable.

Then he shows the other players how it's done, asking the DM questions instead of just cramming the right answer down the noob players' throats. Giving them the opportunity to see how to reason through D&D puzzles / scenarios of the type that you create. Sounds reasonable.

Where's the problem?

Oh, the cheating at dice rolls.

You said that everyone is enjoying the story. Sounds like he's trying to make the story work, and is willing to fudge the dice to make the story work. Not my cup of tea, but most people seem to think that's reasonable, at least for the DM to do.

So, maybe, you just have a really good player, who is trying really hard to advance the story, and show the new players how to do so, and willing to cheat to make sure that the game stays fun.

Or maybe something's happened, that has turned your formerly good roleplaying player into a cheating jerk who is bossing around the poor noobs and "winning the game" by any means necessary.

As ever, I encourage talking to the player about the change in his behavior, the reasons behind it, and his expectations. But go in with an open mind.

[GreyBlack]

Stripping him of cleric powers is definitely not the way to go. OOC problems should remain OOC.

Do you think it would help to give him some sort of 'safety net' feature, like a contingent teleport or revivify? That might make him a bit less worried about his character's survival.

I only advocate for it to drive home the point that, if his character is supposed to be good-aligned, that he is kinda violating his CoC due to his self-preservation over the needs of the many. If he is a Neutral or Evil cleric? Hell naw, that's completely in character.

Admittedly, I might hint to the character in some fashion that he may be close to falling. I guess my big question is, what is the character a cleric _of_? Is he a cleric of Kord? Wee Jas? Gruumsh? Is he an ideal cleric? The question is, for me, whether the character is living up to his ideal. If not? As long as he's in character, it's fine.

[vorpalvolta]

OP notes he is a cleric of Lathander. And unless we're shown more grievous examples of "self-preservation" I advocate against stripping him of his powers.

[GreyBlack]

OP notes he is a cleric of Lathander. And unless we're shown more grievous examples of "self-preservation" I advocate against stripping him of his powers.

Ah. That's fair then. Put me in the "against" category then. Must have missed that.

EDIT: Although.... according to the FR wiki, this is the dogma of Lathander.

"Strive always to aid, to foster new hope, new ideas, and new prosperity for all humankind and its allies. It is a sacred duty to foster new growth, nurture growing things, and work for rebirth and renewal. Perfect yourself, and be fertile in mind and in body. Wherever you go, plant seeds of hope, new ideas, and plans for a rosy future in the minds of all. Watch each sunrise. Consider the consequences of your actions so that your least effort may bring the greatest and best reward. Avoid negativity, for from death comes life, and there is always another morning to turn a setback into a success. Place more importance in activities that help others than in strict adherence to rules, rituals, and the dictates of your seniors."

These actions really don't sound like Morninglord attributes, so maybe a warning is in order?

[UPSNate]

I must apologize for lack of detail in certain parts of my original post. I was pressed for time. I will address that to the best of my ability.


insecure
That is something that I hadn't considered. It seems really odd to me though. He and I have been playing table top games with each other since 2007. I personally started in 2000. The behavior is rather new.



Stripping him of cleric powers is definitely not the way to go. OOC problems should remain OOC.

Do you think it would help to give him some sort of 'safety net' feature, like a contingent teleport or revivify? That might make him a bit less worried about his character's survival.

The adventuring groups wizard could do that for him. He hasn't asked. During our next games break I will talk to her about helping the party stay safe. Possibly to create magic items and such. She picked those feats up but hasn't used them as of yet. That could be a fantastic opportunity for her character and some great role play for the group. Thank you so much.
As far as stripping his powers. After sleeping on that I decided that I will tell him to shift his alignment from LG to NG instead.
There have been about 9 instances of him choosing to say or take an action that would ensure his characters survival over someone else. I know that doesn't sound that bad as you read it but each situation had he put the party first he would have still been fine.
The most glaring example; the party was fighting a mindflayer in a rather narrow hall way. In front of them was a door and they needed to rescue the bard from the illithid held captive behind said door. Behind them was an open area. Things started to look bad so the wizard cast fireball. She fried the party, nearly killing herself. She, only having 1hp left, started to drag herself away from combat. He being next to her could have easily healed her, but instead he healed himself. The thing is he hardly had taken any damage from it still having 75% of his health from the fireball and prior combat.


In the example of him changing his action, I would not have allowed it. He stated his action, to my mind, then the mummy noticed the holy symbol. You cannot change an action after you declare it.

Insofar as the questioning rule, you could try limiting the number of OOC questions the players are allowed to ask. The alternative, in social situations, is to force him to make sense motive checks, a skill he's almost certainly not leveling up, to try and weed out the information.

And, as to the dice rolling, just force everyone to roll on the table whew everyone can see. The die cannot be touched until you say it can. Implement it for all players, and if you have a question about a roll, ask him to walk you through how he got that number. This provides a learning opportunity for all the players, as it explains to them some of the rolls, and it helps you keep tabs on how everyone is rolling.

The final question is, what is the character's alignment? If he's playing any of the Goods, I would have his god strip him of his powers and force him to undertake a quest to regain them. File it under "Gross misconduct of a Cleric with regards to his god." Remember, Clerics have a CoC too, and Paladins aren't the only class with a stick up their butt as a class feature.

Perhaps I have been a little lenient. I will limit ooc questions and take the advice on the sense motive checks. Thank you. Also he is a LG cleric of Lathander. I guess I can be bit more police like on the dice rolling. I just feel that I shouldn't have to not trust my players. I guess I've learned differently.

John Longarrow If I need to speak with the group I will. I had no intention of singling him or anyone out for that matter. I don't really wish to hurt someones feelings. After all these are my friends.


As far as the dice rolling goes, the above post made the best suggestion.

As far as the casting of death ward goes, that doesn't seem an unreasonable course of action when you kinda single him out as the next target of whatever nastiness hit the monk. Seems like an okay tactic to get that up first so if it happens to anyone else, he'll be able to handle it. Since if it happens to him they'd likely all be screwed. Going forward, I ask for Knowledge or Spellcraft checks to know what the proper defense would be, as that was the only part that seemed like metagaming to me at all.


The spell craft check is beautiful. Thank you so very much. There were a couple other incidents of meta gaming, I just couldn't post them at the time. I am beginning to run out of time again.
Playing self preservation isn't really an issue. However he's gone from a protector to someone who would allow the party to be killed to save his own skin.
That and I don't really know if you're familiar with Lathander or his order. The only thing he really represents from said order is a hatred of undead. He doesn't do much else. He did at one point. Then it just sort of fizzled out. Though now that I write this I am starting to wonder if maybe he has grown bored with his character.
Indeed I believe the advice I have gotten here will help.


Cheating at the dice rolls is bad. But let's come back to that.

You say that he has changed. The question is, why has he changed?

You say that the mummy took note of his holy symbol. Sounds reasonable. He changed his mind about the best course of action after noticing that the mummy took note of his holy symbol. Also sounds reasonable.

He's the experienced player. He's letting the other players play, instead of just winning the game by himself. But when they come up with an idea that won't work, he will tell them that it won't work, and tell them why it won't work. Sounds reasonable.

Then he shows the other players how it's done, asking the DM questions instead of just cramming the right answer down the noob players' throats. Giving them the opportunity to see how to reason through D&D puzzles / scenarios of the type that you create. Sounds reasonable.

Where's the problem?

Oh, the cheating at dice rolls.

You said that everyone is enjoying the story. Sounds like he's trying to make the story work, and is willing to fudge the dice to make the story work. Not my cup of tea, but most people seem to think that's reasonable, at least for the DM to do.

So, maybe, you just have a really good player, who is trying really hard to advance the story, and show the new players how to do so, and willing to cheat to make sure that the game stays fun.

Or maybe something's happened, that has turned your formerly good roleplaying player into a cheating jerk who is bossing around the poor noobs and "winning the game" by any means necessary.

As ever, I encourage talking to the player about the change in his behavior, the reasons behind it, and his expectations. But go in with an open mind.

That would be the most positive way to look at things. Of course I wouldn't be here nor would my players have talked with my out side of the game if there wasn't a problem.
I will have a talk with him, my mind will remain open. There could be something I have failed to notice.


OP notes he is a cleric of Lathander. And unless we're shown more grievous examples of "self-preservation" I advocate against stripping him of his powers.
I currently feel the same as I have stated in the above portion of this post.


Ah. That's fair then. Put me in the "against" category then. Must have missed that.

EDIT: Although.... according to the FR wiki, this is the dogma of Lathander.

"Strive always to aid, to foster new hope, new ideas, and new prosperity for all humankind and its allies. It is a sacred duty to foster new growth, nurture growing things, and work for rebirth and renewal. Perfect yourself, and be fertile in mind and in body. Wherever you go, plant seeds of hope, new ideas, and plans for a rosy future in the minds of all. Watch each sunrise. Consider the consequences of your actions so that your least effort may bring the greatest and best reward. Avoid negativity, for from death comes life, and there is always another morning to turn a setback into a success. Place more importance in activities that help others than in strict adherence to rules, rituals, and the dictates of your seniors."

These actions really don't sound like Morninglord attributes, so maybe a warning is in order?

I think a warning will set things straight. I am going to ask him to change his alignment to NG from LG.