Highest intelligence monster?

[Zanos]

Hey folks,

Just looking for the printed monster with the highest int. HD doesn't matter. Best I could find was a great wyrm prismatic dragon with 64 int. This is for a very silly game.

[GilesTheCleric]

Does it need to be a non-unique creature?

[Graypairofsocks]

A Great Wyrm Time Dragon has 74 int.
Time Dragons are from Dragon Magazine Issue #359.

[Zanos]

Does it need to be a non-unique creature?
Yeah, unfortunately.

A Great Wyrm Time Dragon has 74 int.
Time Dragons are from Dragon Magazine Issue #359.
Nice.

[Ettina]

Wow. How would you even RP such a high intelligence?

[Platymus Pus]

The DM .

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Wow. How would you even RP such a high intelligence?

Skip thought steps, a lot of them. Just go straight from "In accordance with the seven laws of Reinier's magical continuüm" to "your employer will have teleported to right... now"

That's what I'd try. Any attempt at showing how a mind like that works is pretty futile.

But I assume Zanos already has a pretty cool plan for it.

[Vaz]

@Playtpus, As a player I can testify that this is not the case.

[Âmesang]

In comparison, the Œrthen greater deity of magic, Boccob, only has an Intelligence of 50. :smalltongue: Heh.

[Pippin]

If Dragon magazines aren't allowed, Prismatic Great Wyrms have the highest INT score as far as I know. Which is 64, see ELH p. 185.

[Bronk]

Maybe a Great Wyrm Time Dragon Paragon?

As for role playing them, they're already quite aloof... but I would suggest reading Protector by Larry Niven for an excellent example of high intelligence done right.

[Chronos]

The words "Protector by Larry Niven" and "excellent" do not belong anywhere near each other.

[GilesTheCleric]

The words "Protector by Larry Niven" and "excellent" do not belong anywhere near each other.

Ringworld wasn't that bad! Are you saying his other work is worse?

[Chronos]

Ringworld was great, as were many of his other works (including, in my opinion, the best science fiction short story ever). Protector, however, was not. In fact, part of the problem with it is precisely that Ringworld was great, because it makes no sense whatsoever for the two stories to be part of the same continuity, and if I'm forced to choose, then I'm going to choose the great one.

[Bronk]

Ringworld was great, as were many of his other works (including, in my opinion, the best science fiction short story ever). Protector, however, was not. In fact, part of the problem with it is precisely that Ringworld was great, because it makes no sense whatsoever for the two stories to be part of the same continuity, and if I'm forced to choose, then I'm going to choose the great one.

All of the books in Niven's Known Space are very... Well, most of them consist of short stories that can be shoehorned into each other, I've never seen that as much of a problem. People are zipping around at relativistic speeds that take them out of the normal story timeline.

I remember Protector as being two short stories, faster paced, and with more cool stuff crammed in. I do think the Pak Protectors show one really cool way of looking at super intelligence, in this case as very focused on the problem at hand, able to achieve any goal given enough time and energy, but with an equal ability for self delusion and with little actual imagination.

(Oh! Or you could read to the end of Ringworld Engineers and go off of that.)

The books themselves though? I really liked all of them... at the time. You really have to be in the mindset to read some dry, slow paced, old timey Sci-Fi to enjoy Ringworld. I think it would be tough for me to reread it now. I'd say Niven was great for the 70's and 80's, but I've read some of his more recent stuff as well as other examples from the 50's-80's and I didn't like them much at all. My personal tastes have moved on to more snappy urban fantasy stories.

(TL;DR: I agree with you, but mostly because I somehow ended up reading Sci-Fi and Fantasy novels in vaguely chronological order, and I found out that I can't go back and feel the same way about books from that era.)

The big problem with highly intelligent DnD monsters is that most of what I've seen in their descriptions is that they're aloof, or jerks, or aloof jerks who want to eradicate all lesser life forms. Time Dragons seem to fall into the general 'aloof' category, which certainly makes for easy role playing, since there would be very little of it.

The good thing about the Protectors is that although they would probably be in the 'aloof' category as well, their overriding goal is 'bloodline survival' instead of 'unknowable time stuff' or straight conquest for the sake of conquest.

[Platymus Pus]

@Playtpus, As a player I can testify that this is not the case.

When the DM sets his DMPC to INT 100 like the monster he is you'll agree. :sabine:

[martixy]

~snip~

I couldn't actually finish the ringworlds. Stopped middle 2 or 3, don't remember. It was just... I don't know... not wondrous enough or something(I mean that's the main draw of these books, isn't it?). As opposed to Clarke's Rama.

For me, my go-to approach in high intelligence has been a combination of various things:
1. Going all out meta: PCs talk in front of the DM about something, high int character has already predicted this conversation will take place. Make a plan, 1 step ahead of them. Etc...
2. Not exactly aloof, just an unshakeable focus on the big picture. Stone-cold rationality.

[Apricot]

Wow. How would you even RP such a high intelligence?

That's a fascinating question, and I think it applies to the general question: how do you roleplay any entity more intelligent than yourself? Either we say that increased intelligence is a qualitatively different experience that cannot be understood even indirectly or that it is something that can be understood procedurally, in the same manner as we can understand and predict things about higher dimension counts. The first is a boring cul-de-sac, so I'll try out the second.

Intelligence, as I best understand it and as conveyed by the practical application of connectionist networks, is the ability to recognize patterns. Different types of intelligence are marked by greater or lesser ability to recognize different types of patterns. A more intelligent individual is able to recognize more complex patterns and put them to use. Thus, a very intelligent individual is able to recognize patterns that other people simply cannot recognize as being present. This matches our experience of high intelligence: consider mathematical savants, who can recognize the patterns present in complex problems and solve them easily while the average individual can't begin to see that they're there. So, in roleplaying a very intelligent individual, one would have to be able to easily recognize patterns present in many things. Interestingly, the ability to recognize patterns in others is not involved in D&D's Int: a very intelligent individual could still be deceived, and might even be more vulnerable if the disparity is extreme (they underestimate others).

Realistically, an individual like that Time Dragon would have massive difficulties even communicating with other individuals. It would use words in senses which only it understands, and would be able to solve very difficult problems without being able to explain them at all. Things which to the average individual are difficult acquisitions are as intuitive to it as basic addition might be to us. It would have a vast memory, and given that it's a dragon it would have excellent explanations for a lot of it, but would leave odd gaps in its knowledge where people and interpretations are concerned. In seeing an army begin to move, it would instantly say that different parts of the army would go here or there, but would find it relatively difficult to describe the goals of the strategy or to identify characteristics of the general. It might have as much ability to solve those problems as a genius of a lesser species, but it might underrate its own ability severely because it sees and is intelligent enough to recognize that it is much better at one than the other.

At least, that's how I would play it.

[martixy]

That's a fascinating question, and I think it applies to the general question: how do you roleplay any entity more intelligent than yourself? Either we say that increased intelligence is a qualitatively different experience that cannot be understood even indirectly or that it is something that can be understood procedurally, in the same manner as we can understand and predict things about higher dimension counts. The first is a boring cul-de-sac, so I'll try out the second.

Intelligence, as I best understand it and as conveyed by the practical application of connectionist networks, is the ability to recognize patterns. Different types of intelligence are marked by greater or lesser ability to recognize different types of patterns. A more intelligent individual is able to recognize more complex patterns and put them to use. Thus, a very intelligent individual is able to recognize patterns that other people simply cannot recognize as being present. This matches our experience of high intelligence: consider mathematical savants, who can recognize the patterns present in complex problems and solve them easily while the average individual can't begin to see that they're there. So, in roleplaying a very intelligent individual, one would have to be able to easily recognize patterns present in many things. Interestingly, the ability to recognize patterns in others is not involved in D&D's Int: a very intelligent individual could still be deceived, and might even be more vulnerable if the disparity is extreme (they underestimate others).

Realistically, an individual like that Time Dragon would have massive difficulties even communicating with other individuals. It would use words in senses which only it understands, and would be able to solve very difficult problems without being able to explain them at all. Things which to the average individual are difficult acquisitions are as intuitive to it as basic addition might be to us. It would have a vast memory, and given that it's a dragon it would have excellent explanations for a lot of it, but would leave odd gaps in its knowledge where people and interpretations are concerned. In seeing an army begin to move, it would instantly say that different parts of the army would go here or there, but would find it relatively difficult to describe the goals of the strategy or to identify characteristics of the general. It might have as much ability to solve those problems as a genius of a lesser species, but it might underrate its own ability severely because it sees and is intelligent enough to recognize that it is much better at one than the other.

At least, that's how I would play it.

I would like to strongly disagree with you on the "explain" parts.
I think he would be able to rigorously and exhaustively explain why he does what he does. You just would not understand. And it would be a waste of time for this creature to try and dumb the explanation down for you or it would simply be impossible to dumb it down without losing the essence of what he'd be explaining.

This mystical "voodoo" you're describing fits more with Wisdom than Intelligence.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, basically find the nearest 4 year old child, and attempt to explain calculus to it (this hypothetical scenario assumes that you know calculus). The problem isn't that you cannot explain calculus, but that the child isn't ready to understand it.

As for roleplaying the dragon, there's a certain amount of "close enough." If you were chatting with Einstein and he suddenly became 10 times more intelligent, you probably would not be able to tell. As long as your dragon has the trappings of an intelligent being, and acts more intelligent than the party fighter, you're probably fine.

If you want to reach the level of "good enough" then try this:

Every time you make a plan, assume the enemy knows you are doing this. Imagine what your enemy will do, and then design a counter-plan that is enacted alongside the main plan to shut down the enemy plan. Put an order of magnitude less effort into this plan, so it isn't tedious for everyone.
Assume the enemy knows you will do the counter-plan, and create a counter-counter plan to their counter-plan to your counter-plan. Again, put less work into this than the previous counter-plan. Having one or two of the right spells prepared ought to do it.
Act baffled when the enemy does not have any counter-plans. It was so obvious!

[daremetoidareyo]

I would like to strongly disagree with you on the "explain" parts.
I think he would be able to rigorously and exhaustively explain why he does what he does. You just would not understand. And it would be a waste of time for this creature to try and dumb the explanation down for you or it would simply be impossible to dumb it down without losing the essence of what he'd be explaining.

This mystical "voodoo" you're describing fits more with Wisdom than Intelligence.

I disagree. Have you ever met a mathematical physicist who could get you to understand his "high"dea? Not one can do it. They have a fundamental framework that is different from ours. Spend enough time in thoughtspace in which you are constantly comparing analogies drawn from disparate sources of knowledge and eventually you get jargon. And like all words, jargon has terms that have connotative meanings that are difficult to explain. Eventually, as you build on your previous knowledge developed upon jargon that you developed, to get to a point where simplifying it all down is a meddlesome chore.

I would play the Time dragon as a being that is constantly testing reality itself. He will give PCs orders, and he will tell them to do some weird things while they perform the orders. "You must complete this task without issuing any language from your mouth" Wherein it turns out that this ingredient had nothing to do with the quest that the PCs cared about, it was some sort of experiment that the time dragon was drawing on to explain something abstruse that it is curious about in the realm of mortals. Imagine the PCs anger when they find out that he sent 6 more groups to complete the same task with the same instructions!

The reasons for why the Time dragon says or does anything would be incredibly difficult for a PC to discern.

[martixy]

I disagree. Have you ever met a mathematical physicist who could get you to understand his "high"dea? Not one can do it. They have a fundamental framework that is different from ours. Spend enough time in thoughtspace in which you are constantly comparing analogies drawn from disparate sources of knowledge and eventually you get jargon. And like all words, jargon has terms that have connotative meanings that are difficult to explain. Eventually, as you build on your previous knowledge developed upon jargon that you developed, to get to a point where simplifying it all down is a meddlesome chore.

I would play the Time dragon as a being that is constantly testing reality itself. He will give PCs orders, and he will tell them to do some weird things while they perform the orders. "You must complete this task without issuing any language from your mouth" Wherein it turns out that this ingredient had nothing to do with the quest that the PCs cared about, it was some sort of experiment that the time dragon was drawing on to explain something abstruse that it is curious about in the realm of mortals. Imagine the PCs anger when they find out that he sent 6 more groups to complete the same task with the same instructions!

The reasons for why the Time dragon says or does anything would be incredibly difficult for a PC to discern.

Again with the "voodoo".
See what Flick said.

Of course a scientist can explain his ideas. Precisely and rigorously. To his peers. The entire model of advancement of human knowledge is based on peer collaboration.
You gotta become his peer first though.

Analogies arise from attempts to "dumb it down". And are generally not an accepted tool of intellectual rigour. And "jargon" as you name it is a pointless word.

[Platymus Pus]

Realistically, an individual like that Time Dragon would have massive difficulties even communicating with other individuals. It would use words in senses which only it understands, and would be able to solve very difficult problems without being able to explain them at all.
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Screen_shot_reeds_useless_3146.jpg
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/comprehendLanguages.htm
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/comprehend-languages

[Flickerdart]

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Screen_shot_reeds_useless_3146.jpg
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/comprehendLanguages.htm
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/comprehend-languages

The problem isn't language - the dragon can speak Common like everyone else does. But concepts don't suddenly become 100 times easier to explain because you switch from English to German. The dragon would also be very frustrated with pretty much everybody, because they would be way too dumb.

[Chronos]

For reference, see Doctor Who when he's asked to explain, well, pretty much anything.

[Malimar]

For reference, see Doctor Who when he's asked to explain, well, pretty much anything.

"Imagine a banana - or anything curved - actually, don’t, because it’s not curved or like a banana. Forget the banana!"

[Flickerdart]

Also, a super-intelligent dragon lives a very long time, and many of its actions will be centered around far-away payoffs. Once in a while, feel free to do things that seem weird and then justify them with "if my calculations are correct, in 100 years, this and this and that will happen." The fighter spat out an appleseed? Clean that up, otherwise there will be an apple orchard springing up here in a few decades, which attracts dire baboons, who would make the area unwelcome for the gnomes that would otherwise discover the gold in the area and then mine it.

[daremetoidareyo]

Again with the "voodoo".
See what Flick said.

Of course a scientist can explain his ideas. Precisely and rigorously. To his peers. The entire model of advancement of human knowledge is based on peer collaboration.
You gotta become his peer first though.

Analogies arise from attempts to "dumb it down". And are generally not an accepted tool of intellectual rigour. And "jargon" as you name it is a pointless word.

The first time one extreme scientific expert attempts to communicate with one in a vastly different discipline, it takes a bunch of work. The Neurologist and the Engineer are both geniuses but their understandings and disciplinary shortcuts of understanding make conversations between the two difficult.

Multiply that disconnect times thousands of years and nearly a magnitude or two of difference in intellectual abilities. The dragon probably has conceptual shorthands for entirely hypothetical realities that it has a mental framework for that is similar to 3-dimensional chess and methods of transforming one hypothetical reality into another. Explaining the difference between 100s of different conceptual realities that branch out from this point is probably far too difficult to communicate at the speed of language. And the short cuts that the dragon takes would lead to a diminished desire to or ability to communicate effectively first try with a given being of lesser intelligence.

[martixy]

The first time one extreme scientific expert attempts to communicate with one in a vastly different discipline, it takes a bunch of work. The Neurologist and the Engineer are both geniuses but their understandings and disciplinary shortcuts of understanding make conversations between the two difficult.

Multiply that disconnect times thousands of years and nearly a magnitude or two of difference in intellectual abilities. The dragon probably has conceptual shorthands for entirely hypothetical realities that it has a mental framework for that is similar to 3-dimensional chess and methods of transforming one hypothetical reality into another. Explaining the difference between 100s of different conceptual realities that branch out from this point is probably far too difficult to communicate at the speed of language. And the short cuts that the dragon takes would lead to a diminished desire to or ability to communicate effectively first try with a given being of lesser intelligence.

Well, here is where we arrive at the divergence between fantasy "voodoo mumbo-jumbo" and real-life "voodoo mumbo-jumbo". I'm fine with the former. It's a narrative tool.

"Speed of language" is a nonsensical statement and I have no idea what you might mean by that.
But if we're talking about logic and language, IRL there has been a lot of work done on that problem by many, many people and we've pretty much got the basics down pat. A notable name is Noam Chomsky.

[Bronk]

I couldn't actually finish the ringworlds. Stopped middle 2 or 3, don't remember. It was just... I don't know... not wondrous enough or something(I mean that's the main draw of these books, isn't it?). As opposed to Clarke's Rama.

Well, yeah, kind of. That and the eventual interconnectedness of it all. What with Protector (two short stories), Crashlander (a bunch of really short stories pulled together in one book), the whole Man-Kzin war anthology series, and like what, 5 or 6 Ringworld or Ringworld related books? I'd say you have to already be in the mindset to like it, then devour it all at once. That's what I did in high school, but, and I don't want to disparage Niven too much, but he kind of ran out of good ideas decades ago. He's doing a new series with Pohl, which would have blown my mind as a kid, but it's just Ringworld, only bigger, and it moves!

Although, I think the Rama series was a 'wondrous stuff' series as well. Oh, but speaking of Clarke, Ender would be a good highly intelligent role model, at least in his first book.


For reference, see Doctor Who when he's asked to explain, well, pretty much anything.

Right? I was going to say!

First Doctor: I could explain this but you wouldn't understand it... You know what? It's a map. Happy?

Second Doctor: Eh, I'll tell you later! Now let's flee while listening to music!

Third Doctor: Sit down and hold my test tubes... I'll Timelord-splain this to you while stealing your sandwiches.

Fourth Doctor: Let me show you, how about that? That's how you out think a civilization of super robots!

Fifth Doctor: If you're a genius, watch closely, if not, good luck.

Sixth Doctor: Out of the way, peon, while my amazing brain fixes this problem that an entire civilization of space scientists couldn't even do!

Seventh Doctor: What's that beeping? Oh, right, 500 years ago I decided to destroy a space fleet, how's that coming? Oh, good.

Eighth Doctor: Hah! I'm going to assume that you, an educated professional, has never heard of an atomic clock.

War Doctor: I'm too old for this ....

Ninth Doctor: What? This? It's an ocarina, numbskull... now lets cobble this junk together into a superweapon!

Tenth Doctor: Hah, this is crazy complicated, I could never figure this out! Well, actually, if you do this, this and this, it's way better!

Eleventh Doctor: Who cares how it works? It's a thing... now let's do a thing!

Twelfth Doctor: Hah! I'm going to do this convoluted thing, then follow it up with stone age violence!


Also, a super-intelligent dragon lives a very long time, and many of its actions will be centered around far-away payoffs.

Although, time dragons are weird in that it's possible to find one that's aged very quickly... it's not very likely, but it's possible that a great wyrm time dragon is only an hour old! It could be fun to play the dragon as only a few years old...

[Flickerdart]

Although, time dragons are weird in that it's possible to find one that's aged very quickly... it's not very likely, but it's possible that a great wyrm time dragon is only an hour old! It could be fun to play the dragon as only a few years old...

Sure, but an hour-old super-intelligent dragon will plan for the future just as much as a century-old super-intelligent dragon.

[daremetoidareyo]

Well, here is where we arrive at the divergence between fantasy "voodoo mumbo-jumbo" and real-life "voodoo mumbo-jumbo". I'm fine with the former. It's a narrative tool.

"Speed of language" is a nonsensical statement and I have no idea what you might mean by that.
But if we're talking about logic and language, IRL there has been a lot of work done on that problem by many, many people and we've pretty much got the basics down pat. A notable name is Noam Chomsky.

The act of forming words and sending the signals to your vocal apparatus to talk is a much slower practice than simply thinking about the words. You are limited in your ability to convey information by the speed at which you can communicate. Telepathy, though ill-defined is the only way around this, but who is to say that an int 18 person communicating with an int 74 person is going to understand the thoughts coming at it from the dominant intellect.

[martixy]

The act of forming words and sending the signals to your vocal apparatus to talk is a much slower practice than simply thinking about the words. You are limited in your ability to convey information by the speed at which you can communicate. Telepathy, though ill-defined is the only way around this, but who is to say that an int 18 person communicating with an int 74 person is going to understand the thoughts coming at it from the dominant intellect.

There's actually a rule to back that up.

I can't quite remember where it is located, but it states that if you make contact with a creature of 26 intelligence or greater and that creature has at least 10 more int points than you, you are stunned or something.

[Zanos]

There's actually a rule to back that up.

I can't quite remember where it is located, but it states that if you make contact with a creature of 26 intelligence or greater and that creature has at least 10 more int points than you, you are stunned or something.
Detect Thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectThoughts.htm)

[Platymus Pus]

The problem isn't language
I would very much say it is. (https://fsmedia.imgix.net/30/ae/9b/d5/c114/441f/a251/15e388bbbdd5/reed-richards-in-new-avengers.jpeg?dpr=1&auto=format&q=75)
Being able to speak in layman's terms can mean everything and would itself would be a sign of intellect.


- the dragon can speak Common like everyone else does. But concepts don't suddenly become 100 times easier to explain because you switch from English to German. The dragon would also be very frustrated with pretty much everybody, because they would be way too dumb.You're saying the dragon is stupid as well, I hope you know that.

[Vaz]

When the DM sets his DMPC to INT 100 like the monster he is you'll agree. :sabine:

DMPC /= DM. The DM having the highest Int is rare.

[Apricot]

I would like to strongly disagree with you on the "explain" parts.
I think he would be able to rigorously and exhaustively explain why he does what he does. You just would not understand. And it would be a waste of time for this creature to try and dumb the explanation down for you or it would simply be impossible to dumb it down without losing the essence of what he'd be explaining.

This mystical "voodoo" you're describing fits more with Wisdom than Intelligence.

Have you ever worked with incredibly intelligent people in their field? Typically, they are extraordinarily bad even at describing the simplest things about their field. Take expert logicians, for example: they will make valid logical moves, and when asked to explain them, simply have no way of beginning. It's like if you tried to explain why something has to be itself (commonly known as the reflexive property). On the other hand, individuals who lack that kind of genius intelligence and instead pick up the tenets through grinding through the material the hard way tend to be much better at explaining it, because they were once in your position and can relate to the challenges you currently face. That is closer to Wis.

Being able to "rigorously and exhaustively explain" does not mean your explanation is any good, by the way. That's a common misconception. And failures to communicate aren't merely on the receiving end, either.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Have you ever worked with incredibly intelligent people in their field? Typically, they are extraordinarily bad even at describing the simplest things about their field.
I don't think that's 'typically'. It happens, sure, but then again, Feynman is well-known for his excellent lectures. And good teaching can be taught, as well, to a degree.

A good teacher isn't always a super-genius and vice versa, but there's no inherent opposition between the two. It's just that at the super-genius level, there aren't that many people. If neither of the current two super-geniuses in your field is a good teacher, you're straight out of luck.

I think that a time dragon who hasn't met any non-time dragons will be close to impossible to understand. For all you know, they could be saying things backwards or sideways in time. A time dragon with previous experience in teaching sub-30 INT-creatures will be able to do well, if it chooses to do so, and takes the proper time (which it should have plenty of, anyway).

[Half-Wizard]

Being able to speak in layman's terms can mean everything and would itself would be a sign of intellect.

I agree. Someone who is highly intelligent will most likely have little to no difficulty explaining concepts in a way that others can understand. However, they'll need time to explain the concepts, and possibly quite a lot of time. Just think about how long it takes to get a master's degree in mathematics. Now think about the prospects of a high school dropout trying to take a class in linear algebra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_algebra) without having taken any math courses in-between. Obviously, you're going to need a decent amount of background information to understand concepts built upon that information, so even the most brilliant dragon in the world would probably still need at least a few weeks, and maybe months or years to fully explain something like that. To be fair, this shouldn't be a big problem for a *time* dragon.

While the concepts may take a long time to explain fully, the practical information derived from them could most likely be explained quickly and easily. It may be hard to explain the mathematics of how it was proved that gravitationally-curved space-time causes the orbit of planets and moons, but it's still pretty easy to say that the sun does not rotate around the world and instead the world spins as it slowly circles around the sun, and this makes the sun appear to rise and fall repeatedly during a year. You'd just have to trust that the dragon is right unless/until it takes the time to give you the full explanation of the concepts and the necessary proofs, and then you'd need to take your own measurements and do your own calculations to independently confirm what the dragon is saying.

In practice, the main behavioral difference you'd see between characters with very high and very low intelligence is that the higher intelligence characters are going to have the knowledge, insight, and learning skills to use their environment and resources extremely effectively, and frequently in ways that the lower intelligence characters might think impossible. You can think of nuclear weapons as merely wizardry of another breed. Now imagine what kind of wizardry real-life scientists could get up to if magic were real and you'll begin to understand what these dragons could be like.

[FocusWolf413]

If you PAO into a creature of an intelligence that high, your character would go from "wooo high fantasy" to "oh my god it's Flowers for Algernon all over again" pretty quickly.

[Flickerdart]

Obviously, you're going to need a decent amount of background information to understand concepts built upon that information, so even the most brilliant dragon in the world would probably still need at least a few weeks, and maybe months or years to fully explain something like that.
And you don't see how this might be a little frustrating for the dragon?

[Cirrylius]

Although, time dragons are weird in that it's possible to find one that's aged very quickly... it's not very likely, but it's possible that a great wyrm time dragon is only an hour old! It could be fun to play the dragon as only a few years old...

Google "Time Baby" "Gravity Falls".:smallbiggrin:

[Platymus Pus]

DMPC /= DM. The DM having the highest Int is rare.

I don't think that you're getting the reference to rule 0 I'm making.

And you don't see how this might be a little frustrating for the dragon?

A puny mortal limited in lifespan would think that, yes.
There is nothing stopping the dragon from summing things up in a paragraph in understandable terms either.

[Flickerdart]

There is nothing stopping the dragon from summing things up in a paragraph in understandable terms either.
Go sum up calculus to a 4 year old.

[Platymus Pus]

Go sum up calculus to a 4 year old.
The 4 year old would look it up on Wikipedia these days, and get a summary.
The comparison terms lack coherence, 4 year olds don't go on adventures.
Adventurers that actually have a sense of self and experience do.
A 4 year old is lacking the development needed for any comparisons.

[Flickerdart]

The 4 year old would look it up on Wikipedia these days, and get a summary.
The comparison terms lack coherence, 4 year olds don't go on adventures.
Adventurers that actually have a sense of self and experience do.
A 4 year old is lacking the development needed for any comparisons.
To the dragon, your sense of self and experience is just as pathetic as you believe the 4 year old's is.

[Platymus Pus]

To the dragon, your sense of self and experience is just as pathetic as you believe the 4 year old's is.
Yet you do not hear about elves belittling humans that often. They're always outright impressed what they do in a small amount of time.
You're over estimating the dragon.

[GilesTheCleric]

I think the differences in intelligence in D&D aren't well enough defined to really make an absolute statement about how creatures of varying intelligence would act. We don't know if a bigger int score means (to use computer analogies) more RAM, hyperthreading/ more threads, more disk space, a faster clock, or any other number of things that could make someone "smarter".

[Flickerdart]

Yet you do not hear about elves belittling humans that often. They're always outright impressed what they do in a small amount of time.
You're over estimating the dragon.
Elves don't get an Intelligence bonus, and the few subraces that do get +2 and not +100.

[Platymus Pus]

I think the differences in intelligence in D&D aren't well enough defined to really make an absolute statement about how creatures of varying intelligence would act. We don't know if a bigger int score means (to use computer analogies) more RAM, hyperthreading/ more threads, more disk space, a faster clock, or any other number of things that could make someone "smarter".

It's true, a wizard with 26 int could unlock the secrets of the multiverse just as easily as a wizard with 36 int.
There is a limited amount of things to be known, the dragon just has the natural luxury of time itself.
Since the dragon would know most things it'd know how to explain something easily, I don't see why that is hard to understand.

Also there are spells that nullify a lot of the complaints.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/rite-publishing---3rd-party-spells/p/psychic-twin
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/share-memory
Psionic spells in particular.

Seeing as this is apparently an amazing dragon that is incomprehensible I see no reason it couldn't cast these kinds of spells one way or another.
The dragon itself could boost your int so you can better understand with many spells.
Maybe even an insane version of Awaken it has.(considering you can awaken sand...)
Flowers for Algernon it and move on (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5y6MGfWW00), understanding the dragon isn't an issue when the dragon is intelligent enough to begin with.


Elves don't get an Intelligence bonus, and the few subraces that do get +2 and not +100.
http://i.imgur.com/L7ic8IY.png

[Vaz]

I don't think that you're getting the reference to rule 0 I'm making.

I got it. I just thought you were having an imaginary conversation with yourself, ao aet you right.

Apparently, you are, so, carry on, don't let me stop you.

[Platymus Pus]

I got it. I just thought you were having an imaginary conversation with yourself, ao aet you right.

Apparently, you are, so, carry on, don't let me stop you.
"ao aet you right" to you too.

[Half-Wizard]

Also there are spells that nullify a lot of the complaints.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/rite-publishing---3rd-party-spells/p/psychic-twin
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/share-memory
Psionic spells in particular.

Seeing as this is apparently an amazing dragon that is incomprehensible I see no reason it couldn't cast these kinds of spells one way or another.
The dragon itself could boost your int so you can better understand with many spells.
Maybe even an insane version of Awaken it has.(considering you can awaken sand...)


This is the smart answer. This is by far easier and more practical than taking months to explain a concept to someone, just as long as you're not being paid a fortune by the hour :wink:

[martixy]

The 4 year old would look it up on Wikipedia these days, and get a summary.
The comparison terms lack coherence, 4 year olds don't go on adventures.
Adventurers that actually have a sense of self and experience do.
A 4 year old is lacking the development needed for any comparisons.

You guys are messing up real world and fantasy again.

In a fantasy setting I see no reason why the super-intelligent being shouldn't have some mental capability that is beyond a lesser minded individual.
Just as theory of mind is simply not part of the mental model of some 4-year-olds, I can imagine the notion of this creature possessing some cognitive model that is beyond capacity of a lower-intelligence creature.

The point is, there are stages of development to the way human brains construct and process their models of reality.
In make-belief space it is not unreasonable to want to portray something that exceeds even our cognitive patterns, just as other feats that exceed human physical limits.

The only problem is that this is essentially the hardest to achieve and portray. This is the reason why practically every superhero out there is focused on physical abilities(or at least has a physical component). High intelligence is hard to portray plausibly. Especially comic book superheroes, which have to look spectacular on the pages of a comic book. Take your Reed Richards(bendy), your Batman(top notch martial artist, high tech gadgets), your Ozymandias(same deal), etc.

Ultimately, the best way to demonstrate is by the results having such a high intelligence - just like black holes can't be seen by definition, but their effect on the surrounding world is easily detectable and quantifiable. And this is ultimately the only thing that needs to be emulated.

P.S. That Rick and Morty clip. They're talking about a show that never got off the ground.

[Platymus Pus]

You guys are messing up real world and fantasy again.
Other way around people are confusing intelligence as a sign of not being able to explain things to lesser minded individuals when it's really a lack of cha and wis that does that not an over abundance of int. Seeing as it's a dragon it should also have wis and cha in spades as opposed to intelligent people in real life that more than often dump those two stats.




P.S. That Rick and Morty clip. They're talking about a show that never got off the ground.

Sounds ruff.

[Chronos]

A great worm dragon probably does have Wis and Cha much higher than a human's, too, and so would be much better at explaining things. But that's only if it's trying to explain the same things. However, with an intelligence that high, it's likely that most of the things the dragon finds worthy of interest are so complicated that they simply cannot be comprehended by a human, no matter how well they're explained.

And even some relatively easy tasks can be unexplainable. For example: Touch your nose with the tip of your right index finger. Easy, right? You've been able to do that from infancy. But now, suppose that you're dealing with a patient, born a quadruplegic but who's just had extensive nerve reconstruction surgery. The wiring is now all there, so he can now move his arm and fingers, if he can just figure out how. Can you explain to him how to do it? After all, it's something you can do. Well, maybe calculus is like that to a time dragon: Of course it can do calculus, everyone can do calculus, that's trivial! But how? Well, you just do it.

[Half-Wizard]

A great worm dragon probably does have Wis and Cha much higher than a human's, too, and so would be much better at explaining things. But that's only if it's trying to explain the same things. However, with an intelligence that high, it's likely that most of the things the dragon finds worthy of interest are so complicated that they simply cannot be comprehended by a human, no matter how well they're explained.

And even some relatively easy tasks can be unexplainable. For example: Touch your nose with the tip of your right index finger. Easy, right? You've been able to do that from infancy. But now, suppose that you're dealing with a patient, born a quadruplegic but who's just had extensive nerve reconstruction surgery. The wiring is now all there, so he can now move his arm and fingers, if he can just figure out how. Can you explain to him how to do it? After all, it's something you can do. Well, maybe calculus is like that to a time dragon: Of course it can do calculus, everyone can do calculus, that's trivial! But how? Well, you just do it.

Maybe not calculus, but you have a good point. Calculus is a formal logical way of doing things, so explaining it is not going to be difficult for a highly intelligent, wise, and charismatic dragon. That's the whole point of it, you can prove your answers are correct and show how you got your result. While formal logical processes can be explained, informal logical processes would still be impossible for the dragon to explain. For example, higher intelligence is probably going to lead to better memory, better rough-guess estimates with more accurate error margins, quicker mental approximations, more rapid and more accurate pattern-matching etc.

Some of this the dragon might be able to explain, like it can immediately tell when it meets someone whether or not they are literate and if so, whether they are left or right-handed. This is because it notices that people who are literate have a tiny bump of callused skin on the end of their middle finger of their dominant hand, and the bump is caused by years of putting pressure on the skin there by writing with ink pens. If you're as perceptive as the dragon, this knowledge would let you achieve the same results. Other parts might be impossible for the dragon to explain, like how it remembers the entirety of its life in photographic detail, so that you could quote a line from a book to it and it could tell you the name of the book and page where that quote appears. This is something that you can either do or you can't, there's no way the dragon could ever explain how you could do it.