So how does that work in game terms...

[Lord]

In the most recent comic Roy hurled his sword through Durkula's barrier, only for Durkula to disappear before it could reach him.

I'm just curious how that works, since the OOTS world operates on a turn based combat system how precisely is it possible for Durkon to teleport out before the sword reaches him? Is it just a metaphor for Roy missing on his throw or something?

Any assistance is appreciated regarding how one might simulate such an effect in D&D.

[Keltest]

I would say Durkon got initiative, but only barely, over Roy, and Roy decided maybe he could get a hit in before the spell fully took effect. So Roy takes a bunch of heavy combat penalties and misses.

[Bulldog Psion]

Throw and miss; too low a roll to hit.

There's no indication of why an attack misses when the roll is too low; it can be fluffed any way the DM wants, pretty much. When I've been DMing, I like to provide a description of the action, and a miss can be turned into a miss, the weapon bouncing off armor, a parry by the opponent, or whatever else I've felt makes a good image.

So if this were a D&D session, it might go something like this if I were DM'ing:

Roy's Player: All right, I throw my sword at him.

Me: Let's see ... with all the penalties, etc. etc. ... looks like you need a 12 to hit.

Roy's Player (rolling): Aaargh! Rolled a 3!

Me: You hurl your sword, but Lurky Corpsewhiskers, smiling evilly, waves at you and fades out before the sword can reach him. The blade flies through the space he occupied a second ago and clatters to the floor on the far side of the room.

[BaronOfHell]

Isn't it a bit unfair that Roy can decide his action after he knows if throwing his sword would have a chance at succeeding or not anyway (based on initiative)?

I'd think it'd be more fair if both decide what they do, then there's a roll for initiative. If Roy wins initiative, his sword will land before Durkula teleports away, but if Roy misses, then the sword won't hit or at least hurt Durkula.. on the other hand, if Durkula wins initiative, we get the scene we see..

That aside, I don't think the comic has been strictly following the D&D mechanics/rules for a long time.

[Talyn]

@BaronofHell: In older D&D editions, that was, in fact, how combat worked. The problem was that it was super time-consuming once you have more than three or four combatants, and made combat drag out. As players got more combat options and combats took longer and longer, initiative got progressively simpler and more abstract.

By the time we get to 3.5, (i.e. the ruleset that OotS uses), you only roll Initiative once, at the beginning of combat, and then everyone's order stays that way for the whole combat, barring cases like someone deliberately delaying.

[Werbaer]

In the most recent comic Roy hurled his sword through Durkula's barrier, only for Durkula to disappear before it could reach him.
Note that the teleport spell was activated by another vampire breaking the orb two panels before Roy throws his sword.

[Johnnyjester]

I'd go with a readied action. Like...

TURN

Durkula :
- Standard action : ready : "If a harmful event springs towards me, I teleport away"
- Move / free actions : keep taunting Roy and send snarky comments his way

Roy :
- Full-round action : Throw greatsword towards Durkula.

- Interrupts action happens : ready triggers before Roy's action completion.

After all, Lurky Corpsewhiskers just did another round readying an action, since he managed to counterspell "Thor's Lightning", so it's only normal he keeps spending his rounds defending himself as such.

[factotum]

In game terms Durkula wouldn't have been there for Roy to throw his sword at, since the teleport orb was activated several panels previously--him fading away just before the sword flies through the space he was in was plot-driven to make everything seem that much more urgent. A good DM would probably have jazzed things up as Bulldog Psion did in his description earlier, but in RAW, Durkula's already taken his turn and escaped long before Roy gets to move.

[Peelee]

Clearly, we should just get a small game going with Bulldog Psion as our DM.

[King of Nowhere]

by the rules, it wouldn't happen. but DMing is less about painstakingly taking care of the rules and more about telling a good storynote. I remember using a similar imagery with my own group, simply because it made a good scene. basicallly, as a DM you take the dice rolls and use them as the base for descriibing the scene. By the numbers, durkula may have won initiative and teleported first, or roy could have missed.

note: well, unless you have a party of powergamers doing munchkining, in which case I suppose exact adherence to the rules would be required; but it's not my style of playing D&D and I wouldn't be able to DM such a party anyway

[Draconi Redfir]

:smallsigh: i hate it when this happens. you make a world in which D&D rules apply or are otherwise involved somehow and everyone thinks that it's a D&D game.

What happened is simple. Roy threw his sword, but Durkon teleported away before it hit him. full stop.

Unlike in actual D&D games, time and movement does not simply stop during "turns" in stories like OOTS, Goblins, and (possibly) Will Save The World For Gold. They function in real-time, just like our world does. i wave my hand and at the exact same time you do the same, whereas in actual D&D games, i would wave my hand, then stop when you start to wave yours.

In stories such as this there are two fundamental things that you need to differentiate from one another. Gameplay rules and story rules. this is also applicable for video games that also tell stories.

Now, in D&D games, you have a thing going where from your perspective you throw a punch, then you wait patiently while your enemy punches you. but it would be silly for you to do that in real life yes? This is where the story rules come in. For the game rules you throw the punch then wait. But in the actual story, you throw the punch at the exact same time as your opponent and while that is happening, both of you are simultaneously trying to dodge out of the way. The game rules only exist to translate this complex motion into something more simple and easier to understand and play as a game.

For example, ever wonder why in RPG cut scenes the characters are always able to do things they can't in the actual game? Cloud and Link both swing swords simultaneously and run around a vast field as they lock blades and use the terrain to their advantage as they fight, but how can this be? In the actual game you're limited to turn based-combat, you can't lock blades with someone, you can't jump onto a rock for higher ground, you can't even move from your position unless it's to run up to the opponent and hit them. you can't shoot a raw energy pulse out of your hand, it needs to be one of a select set of pre-written spells right!?

Wrong.

The cutscene exists in the story separately from the rules of the game, THIS is what the world is really like, people walk, talk, and act in real-time just like you and i. from YOUR perspective when controlling the characters it is turn-based yes, but that is only to translate what is happening in their world into a system you can easily manipulate and understand. from the CHARACTER'S perspective everyone is always running around and acting in real-time, because time does not stop for them from their perspective.

Exactly the same in D&D and what is happening here. Rules such as initiative and pre-written spells exist yes. but they exist as guidance for the characters in the same way as the laws of physics. "rolling initiative" means little more then "seeing who attacks first." if you'll notice in any of the fights that have occurred between now and the battle for azure city, very few if any of them have ever had an instance where time or a character outright stops mid-combat to allow the other to act. Look at the battle between Roy and Durkula for the most recent example, Roy was swinging his sword and raging while Durkula was SIMULTANEOUSLY casting spells and running away. No "turns" happened here, only what the characters were doing in real-time.

Order of the stick exits in a world in which D&D rules apply yes, critical hits are scored, initiatives are rolled, skill checks are made. But they are not the ONLY rules of the world, the laws of physics and magic still apply. So those critical hits are also a matter of luck and skill. those initiatives are a matter of who sensed what was going on and reacted quickest, skill checks are a matter of how well the character can handle the situation. the D&D rules mentioned are merely both a tool and a mechanic inof itself both to help guide the players along into scenarios that might not apply without them (Read: Haley picking a lock much too difficult for her skill level due to a "massive circumstance bonus" provided by a cheering Elan) and a way to translate what is occurring in the world to the audience more easily. "How did Belkar kill hundreds of trained hobgoblin warriors all alone? He was a higher level and rolled a lot of crits." Other then that, the D&D rules really only apply for situations that allow for humour (Durkon hitting the goblin twice after realizing his bonuses despite missing initially) and plot-driving moments. (V can't cast teleport because it's in a school she can't learn.)

So yeah. In conclusion, Roy threw his sword at Durkula. Durkula teleported away before it hit him. Just like how it would happen if it occurred in our world.

[hroþila]

That's fine and dandy, but this thread is specifically about how D&D represents just that during normal play, not about the real world. It doesn't even begin to imply that the scene is wrong - it merely asks how it works, mechanically. Don't confuse "OotS is still read by many D&D players who take an interest in the underlying mechanics because they find them fun" with "Most D&D players will still cry foul when the rules aren't strictly adhered to".

Incidentally, gameplay and story segregation is something that bugs many, many people.

[littlebum2002]

Isn't it a bit unfair that Roy can decide his action after he knows if throwing his sword would have a chance at succeeding or not anyway (based on initiative)?

I'd think it'd be more fair if both decide what they do, then there's a roll for initiative. If Roy wins initiative, his sword will land before Durkula teleports away, but if Roy misses, then the sword won't hit or at least hurt Durkula.. on the other hand, if Durkula wins initiative, we get the scene we see..

That aside, I don't think the comic has been strictly following the D&D mechanics/rules for a long time.

The prequel book On the Origin of PC's spells out quite clearly why this doesn't work in actual D&D games.

[Trixie]

Unlike in actual D&D games, time and movement does not simply stop during "turns" in stories like OOTS

Wrong. We already had objects stopping in midair when they exceeded their allowed movement, like Belkar right here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html

So the answer most likely is identical, sword was too far and too heavy to reach Durkula in one go, problem solved.

What I'd like to know, however, is how exactly Wrecan killed vampire with bow. They have DR 10 vs magic/silver, even assuming +3 magic enhancement D8 damage die would deal just 1 damage on maximum roll, 0 damage otherwise. Did that vampire have just 2 HP to die to just 2 arrows? Because silver, they weren't...

[goodpeople25]

What I'd like to know, however, is how exactly Wrecan killed vampire with bow. They have DR 10 vs magic/silver, even assuming +3 magic enhancement D8 damage die would deal just 1 damage on maximum roll, 0 damage otherwise. Did that vampire have just 2 HP to die to just 2 arrows? Because silver, they weren't...
You know this how? :smallconfused: Heck they even have the same fletching colour as the other slivered arrows we saw Haley use. And the arrow head colours look right.
Also weapon abilities are a thing, Bane seems to fit and holy is still is an option though i kinda would expect visual effects. (I somewhat doubt Wrecan having an anarchic weapon though)

[Keltest]

You know this how? :smallconfused: Heck they even have the same fletching colour as the other slivered arrows we saw Haley use. And the arrow head colours look right.
Also weapon abilities are a thing, Bane seems to fit and holy is still is an option though i kinda would expect visual effects. (I somewhat doubt Wrecan having an anarchic weapon though)

besides which, magic effects were flying around every which way. She may have already been injured.

[Pyrous]

besides which, magic effects were flying around every which way. She may have already been injured.

Indeed, she was. We can see wound marks in her face in the last pael of #1018 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html).

Also, if she is a vampire spawn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm#vampireSpawn), the DR is 5/silver.

[goodpeople25]

besides which, magic effects were flying around every which way. She may have already been injured.
Well yeah but i think that was covered on the whole 2hp thing, i'm just raising the window and wondering why Trixie thinks they're not sliver. not suggesting they could kill the vamp in 1 (well 2) hits so not really relevant.

[Draconi Redfir]

Wrong. We already had objects stopping in midair when they exceeded their allowed movement, like Belkar right here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html



please note that the linked page was a humor-based encounter that introduced new hex rules back in the earlier stages of the comic.

Used for humor + Earlly comic (albet not as early as the first dungeon) typically means the mechanics are allowed more freedom since the story isn't quite fully formed yet. plus that whole encounter had little to do with the story reguardless.

[BaronOfHell]

So the answer most likely is identical

Only if we ignore everything else we know..