Survivability builds at low levels that aren't fighters?

[GSQ|unionjack]

I've recently started a casual arena game a friend is putting. A simple premise, he rolls randomly to see how many rooms are in the arena and what is in each, and we push through them until we turn back. Minimal RP, get to level 10 and be an arena champion. PvP is allowed or disallowed as a random variable, 50/50. We start at level 6 with 13k, nearly any source books as long as they aren't something dumb like anthropomorphic whales, etc.

The arena itself is pretty aggressive, each room in the chain gets harder. Last night was my first go, I rolled up a nice barbarian/fighter/crusader with 20 str, 70HP, 18AC, etc. Set up to charge, knockdown, get improved trip attacks, the whole set up. He even had a bit of healing for himself, a couple bad rolls, but in the end he was murdered by a hook horror in room 3 of 5. The room was 8' tall, shaped like a cross with 30'x 30'. Essentially made for the hook horror, with no room to maneuver around. The other player in there is a pixie with at will imp. invisibility and he managed to work it down while I took all the blows. Admittedly- we had 3 players in the room before and one left, I should have realized it would only be me and the invisible one left in the next room, but at any rate it shows the kinds of things we're up against.

TL;DR -- What I'd really like to find are good non-fighter builds or concepts that can survive in a situation like this. I gave the hardcore fighter the best go I could and got wrecked. What else might work? Thinking of trying a dread necromancer. It seems like an archer or rogue or anything like that would get demolished pretty quickly.

[Flickerdart]

Your first instinct seems to be good - a minionmancer should work well, especially if he can reanimate the things in the arena with animate dead. Zombies have a lot of meat due to doubling the HD of the base creature, so you can use them to mob an enemy and stall it. Just make sure you are protected yourself!

A summoner druid could work quite well. You have your animal companion to protect you, you're not a slouch in combat yourself, and an extended (get some metamagic reducers or a rod) summon nature's ally III gives you 12 rounds of dire wolf (who can trip enemies for you) or thoqqua (who can burrow and set enemies on fire).

[Cerefel]

If nothing else, a Dragonborn Gnome Stalwart Sorcerer will have enough health to take a few hits if something goes wrong.

[John Longarrow]

What level are you starting at and what is allowed book wise?

[GSQ|unionjack]

Level 6, just about any source book pending the far reaches of obscura, i'm probably not going to pull too hard from campaign settings or anything like that, though a warforged could be interesting...

Druid is the other class I was thinking about, get summons all day with a permanent pet. Theoretically I could spenk 8k for a ring of the beast to boost how many high level summons I can get a day and take a level in fighter to get some heavier armor on top of things.

[Flickerdart]

and take a level in fighter to get some heavier armor on top of things.
This is not worth it even a little bit. Remember - a druid can't wear metal, so you would need to get an expensive alternate material. And even after you do, you get +3 AC compared to a breastplate made of the same material. +3 AC is not worth being behind one level on your spells, animal companion, wild shape, etc.

[John Longarrow]

As it is an arena fight, Pixie Warblade (1) (for HP) or Crusader(1) / Warlock (1)

You fly. Your very hard to hit. You have DR and SR. When fighting, shoot (standard action) then move (move action). Most things can't see you or locate you easily. Those that can mostly need to be able to reach you. Very cheese for an arena fight, but should be very survivable. Remember to use your innate abilities. For Invocation I'd take see the unseen so you can see other invisible combatants.

Not sure on an alternate at the moment. If I think of something I'll post it.

[GSQ|unionjack]

Remember - a druid can't wear metal, so you would need to get an expensive alternate material. And even after you do, you get +3 AC compared to a breastplate made of the same material. +3 AC is not worth being behind one level on your spells, animal companion, wild shape, etc.

That's a good point. I had assumed dragonhide full plate, thinking I wouldn't have to spend many slots on buffs, or could keep stacking AC, and I would still get level 3 slots. With a ring of the beast, I can use those for buffs and lvl 2 slots for summon NA III.



Hahah well I'd like to avoid a pixie, as that's exactly what my buddy is doing. Still, that's part of my conundrum, I'm really not sure how to top that character.

[Flickerdart]

If you're willing to be yet another warlock, hengeiyokai are amazing - they can turn into a sparrow which is Fine sized and has 23 Dex, for a net +14 to AC and to-hit with ranged attacks.

[Rebel7284]

The most survivable character at this level is probably a Divine Metamagic - Persist cleric.

You also can optionally dip into Dread Necromancer for an extra turning pool and/or Church Inquisitor for an extra domain for free.

Persist the following:
Channeled Divine Shield (PHB2) - DR10/Evil is amazing at this level. Not many enemies can bypass it.
Mass Lesser Vigor (SpC) - Fast healing 1 to the party. Very useful to heal to full between rooms, and the uptick and auto-stabilization during combat doesn't hurt either.
Ice Axe (SpC) - 2d12+CL cold damage as a TOUCH attack! Have a backup weapon in case creatures with a cold subtype show up though!
Cloud of Knives (PHB2) - Free attacks all day are always nice.
Divine Retaliation (PHB2) - Free Karmic Strike is always nice

Memorize some Close Wounds to heal as an immediate action if necessary while you attack with your Ice Axe.

[bekeleven]

Are all the encounters in the same day, or can you rest?

Because, you know, abrupt jaunt wizard.

There are also some stupidly complicated builds that I like, but at this level they aren't as good as the stuff other people are posting.

[ATHATH]

If you're fighting single targets, a Catoblepas (Dragon 299) might do- it's a 6 HD, 0 LA aberration with a DC 18 (Fort) vs. Death to a Living Creature (6d6 damage if the save is successful) Death Ray that can be fired every 1d4 rounds, and a tail that forces a DC 18 (Fort) vs. Stun when it hits. The Catoblepas also has large physical stats (+10 STR and +16 CON, if I remember correctly).

I haven't actually played one, so it might be terrible, but it looks pretty good.

[GSQ|unionjack]

Wow good suggestions. I have multiple characters I can keep up, 3 at a time, and choose who goes into the arena. I wanted to try a necro/druid, cleric, and a monster, so these ideas all work out great. After work I'll have more time to parse through some things, but this really boosts the confidence.

Persisted DR10 and an axe seem great, and I wouldn't mind a bit of a death ray on a huge strength character.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

[John Longarrow]

The most survivable character at this level is probably a Divine Metamagic - Persist cleric.

You also can optionally dip into Dread Necromancer for an extra turning pool and/or Church Inquisitor for an extra domain for free.

Persist the following:
Channeled Divine Shield (PHB2) - DR10/Evil is amazing at this level. Not many enemies can bypass it.
Mass Lesser Vigor (SpC) - Fast healing 1 to the party. Very useful to heal to full between rooms, and the uptick and auto-stabilization during combat doesn't hurt either.
Ice Axe (SpC) - 2d12+CL cold damage as a TOUCH attack! Have a backup weapon in case creatures with a cold subtype show up though!
Cloud of Knives (PHB2) - Free attacks all day are always nice.
Divine Retaliation (PHB2) - Free Karmic Strike is always nice

Memorize some Close Wounds to heal as an immediate action if necessary while you attack with your Ice Axe.

Just wondering, how are you getting the turn attempts to power all of that?

[Vaz]

Is it possible to take a Sandshaper at that stage? You can create small cubic areas of sand which block line of effect providing total cover for 100% miss chance. The best bit is you can makenit even before you create it. Combine that with a Wizard's ACF that lets it hop about as an immediate action 3+Int a day and you're rather 'tanky' with other defensive buffs up.

[Rebel7284]

Just wondering, how are you getting the turn attempts to power all of that?

Lawful Neutral Human Cleric 5/Dread Necro 1
Domains Planning, Undeath

Feats
Domain: Extend Spell
Domain: Extra Turning
Human: Persistent Spell
1: Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell
3: Extra Turning
6: Extra Turning


Turn attempts: 3 + Cha + 12
Rebuke Attempts: 3+ Cha + 12
Reliquary Holy Symbol: 2
Nightstick: 4

Note that you can cast Eagle’s Splendor on yourself before your buff routine.
Assuming 12 Cha starting, this mean you have a total of 42 turn/rebuke attempts, exactly enough to persist 6 spells.

The only issue I have potentially found is that since (as far as I know) no deity has both of those domains, Divine Retaliation's text of "This spell creates a divine weapon that mimics your deity’s favored weapon." needs DM arbitration.

With that said, Divine Retaliation is certainly not the crux of the build, so replace it with another spell if you want.


Edit: if you want to make it sillier, you can always be playing a venerable aged "Spark" Unseelie Fey Human with 18 Cha starting and put your level 4 ability point into charisma.

18 + 2 Spark + 2 Fey + 3 Age + 1 level up + 4 Eagle's Spendor = 30 Cha = 56 Turn attempts = 8 Spells. Considering how much your other stats suffer though, it's not really worth it doing this.

[John Longarrow]

Forgot that Extra turning counts for each of your turning/rebuking pools. This just gave me a NASTY idea for a villain... Earth, Air, Fire, and Water domains all give rebuking...

[GSQ|unionjack]

I haven't tried a build like this yet, but I've been looking into it. If I understand correctly, you can't use the elemental turnings for divine metamagic. I believe I read that somewhere on this forum but I can't cite that at all.

[Rebel7284]

Forgot that Extra turning counts for each of your turning/rebuking pools. This just gave me a NASTY idea for a villain... Earth, Air, Fire, and Water domains all give rebuking...

They do, but Divine Feats specify Turn or Rebuke UNDEAD specifically, so as written, those attempts can't be used for Divine Metamagic.

HOWEVER! There are a few alternate class features that swap turning and yet still say that they work for Divine Feats!
Azurin Cleric Substitution Levels and Rebuke Dragons both qualify.

You can get 4 pools by going Lawful Good Azurin Cleric 7/Sacred Excorcist 1/Death Delver 1/Paladin 4/X 7

Not the best build due to the 5 lost caster levels, but fun thought exercise.

There is some conversation about Greater Turning being a separate pool, but reading the ability in the past, it always looks for me as simply an option to upgrade a regular turn attempt rather than a separate pool.

[Flickerdart]

Earth, Air, Fire, and Water domains all give rebuking...
These can't be used for divine feats, most of which specifically require Turn or Rebuke Undead.

[GSQ|unionjack]

Turn attempts: 3 + Cha + 12
Rebuke Attempts: 3+ Cha + 12
Reliquary Holy Symbol: 2
Nightstick: 4

Note that you can cast Eagle’s Splendor on yourself before your buff routine.
Assuming 12 Cha starting, this mean you have a total of 42 turn/rebuke attempts, exactly enough to persist 6 spells.


I don't follow the math on this. You don't get both Turn and Rebuke, you only get one or the other, unless I'm missing somethin? That would only be 3+ Cha +12, +2 and +4 = 22? And it's 7 to persist a level 1 spell, but 10 to persist a level 3, correct?

[Flickerdart]

I don't follow the math on this. You don't get both Turn and Rebuke, you only get one or the other, unless I'm missing somethin?
He gets Turning from Cleric levels, and Rebuking from Dread Necromancer levels. Most sources of turning will advance existing turning, but these ones are for-real independent.

[GSQ|unionjack]

Ok that makes a lot of sense. Do all the extra turning feats give to both Rebuke and turn, doubling the function of those as the math above suggests?

Edit : The rules for extra turning make it sounds like if they affect distinct creatures, you get multiple attempts at each, however it isn't completely clear if turning and rebuking undead count as separate for that count.

[Rebel7284]

Ok that makes a lot of sense. Do all the extra turning feats give to both Rebuke and turn, doubling the function of those as the math above suggests?

Edit : The rules for extra turning make it sounds like if they affect distinct creatures, you get multiple attempts at each, however it isn't completely clear if turning and rebuking undead count as separate for that count.

I have always seen people talk about it as boosting all types of turning/rebuking you have, but re-reading it now, you're right, it's not 100% clear.

Also, it always costs 7 turn attempts to Persist a spell regardless of level.

[Bonzai]

I would run an Incarnate. Halfway decent hp, with Con as your primary stat. Decent armor proficiency. After 3rd level you get a very decent zombie. At 6th Lvl you could be dealing 5d6 ranged touch Attack acid damage. Plus you have a whole slew of defensive and util options.

Incarnates shine at low levels, so I would take advantage of it.

[Darrin]

I would run an Incarnate.

Seconding. Pick up Astral Vambraces from Psionics of Incarnum, and you can be very hard to kill at low levels.

[FocusWolf413]

I know someone's going to want to crucify me, but play a monk.

Well, play something like a monk. A few monk levels will dramatically increase your survivability. Good saves, great AC, pretty decent bonuses to other stuff, etc etc. Add in some rogue, spellthief, etc and it might actually work out for you.