Making a Crossbow Badass ("Gunslinger")

[Kirion]

Thought experiment for a potential character coming up, should the party need ranged damage.

I like the fluff of a grizzled expert marksmen using a Crossbow, basically a Gunslinger with the gun replaced by a crossbow. Could be more stoic Clint Eastwood fellow, over the top Revolver Ocelot, or more rogueish like Han Solo. Crossbow being the key though. What are some sweet Crossbow ranged damage builds?

The first build I'm thinking about is straight up Variant Human Fighter, Crossbow Expert as the bonus feat. You pick up Archery style and max out DEX and then pick up Sharpshooter feat by level 8 thanks to bonus feats. I don't know whether Battle Master or Eldritch Knight subclasses would be superior for this style of play.

What do you guys think? Any other classes I should consider, or multiclass builds?

[Hudsonian]

How about Percy Derolo from Critical Role?

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/170778/Gunslinger-Martial-Archetype-for-Fighters?src=hottest_filtered&filters=45469

It's pretty much as close to being official Cannon as possible while still being homebrewed.

[BRC]

Once you have Crossbow Expert, any Dex Build is a good Crossbow Build. There is a question of Heavy Crossbow vs Hand Crossbow, but that largely comes down to how your DM interprets the hand crossbow section of the Crossbow Expert feat (Let's not start that argument up again.)

I have had lots of fun as a dex based battlemaster fighter. "Menacing Strike" is especially potent on a ranged character, since many melee brutes lack good wisdom saves and it can keep them away from the rest of the party. Plus, once you have Crossbow Expert, your heavy crossbow works just fine in melee.

Your main weakness as a Crossbow-user is your lack of melee attack, meaning you can't use your reaction for AoOs, which limits your ability to control the battlefield somewhat. Maybe dip a level in Sorceror or something so you can pick up the Shield spell.

[Hudsonian]

. Maybe dip a level in Sorceror or something so you can pick up the Shield spell.

Then take warcaster so you can toss a firebolt at all of the idiots that provoke you.

[Saeviomage]

How about Percy Derolo from Critical Role?

It's pretty much as close to being official Cannon as possible while still being homebrewed.

And it's incredibly close to being a battlemaster, but with some balance issues. Better to just use the battlemaster IMO.

[Quintessence]

Once you have Crossbow Expert, any Dex Build is a good Crossbow Build. There is a question of Heavy Crossbow vs Hand Crossbow, but that largely comes down to how your DM interprets the hand crossbow section of the Crossbow Expert feat (Let's not start that argument up again.)


There is no argument, by RAW and RAI it works. It was even confirmed by sage advice...

[Kirion]

I'd prefer not to use homebrew if my character concept can be pulled off without it.

I'm not sure what the controversy is with Crossbow Expert? From what I understand, the last part of the feat lets me shoot an extra time with my hand crossbow as a bonus action, which makes it superior to using a heavy crossbow.

Lack of opportunity attack is an interesting one that gives a point towards EK. They get damaging cantrips, so you could use warcaster to solve that, which also benefits in making sure your buffs don't fall off from damage too. No need to dip Sorcerer that way.

Battle Master looks great too. Four dice to help out your allies and do +1d8 damage, regained on a short rest right at level 3. EK can only cast 2 spells at level 3 and gets them back on a long rest. Doesn't seem even close to me early on, though EK's spell progression gets better as you go up in levels.

[Kane0]

I'd prefer not to use homebrew if my character concept can be pulled off without it.

I'm not sure what the controversy is with Crossbow Expert? From what I understand, the last part of the feat lets me shoot an extra time with my hand crossbow as a bonus action, which makes it superior to using a heavy crossbow.

Lack of opportunity attack is an interesting one that gives a point towards EK. They get damaging cantrips, so you could use warcaster to solve that, which also benefits in making sure your buffs don't fall off from damage too. No need to dip Sorcerer that way.

Battle Master looks great too. Four dice to help out your allies and do +1d8 damage, regained on a short rest right at level 3. EK can only cast 2 spells at level 3 and gets them back on a long rest. Doesn't seem even close to me early on, though EK's spell progression gets better as you go up in levels.

There may be better uses for your bonus action though, depending on build. Rangers will likely want to keep it free for hunters mark, swift quiver, etc. The magic initiate feat might also interest you, you can grab a 1/day hex or hunters mark for emergency damage boosts and some neat cantrip tricks to boot.
Hand crossbows have a pretty awful range as well, something to consider.

EKs also get access to haste, which is pretty damn awesome. Melee isnt much of a concern if you're putting in effort to stay away from the pointy sticks, being an archer type and all. Not to say you cant just grab your shortsword as a fighter and still be awesome, both battlemaster and EK will still give you benefits when doing so.

[ZenBear]

I would go Champion Fighter. Pick up Mariner style as your second since you won't be wearing heavy armor. Be a pure gunslinger, no frills or arcane nonsense.

[BRC]

I'd prefer not to use homebrew if my character concept can be pulled off without it.

I'm not sure what the controversy is with Crossbow Expert? From what I understand, the last part of the feat lets me shoot an extra time with my hand crossbow as a bonus action, which makes it superior to using a heavy crossbow.


The Feat seems to be about fighting with a Sword in one hand and a hand crossbow in the other, at least that is what it seems like it is supposed to emulate. There are questions about how the hand crossbow gets reloaded, and whether it makes sense to do your primary attack with the hand crossbow, then just attack again with the hand crossbow as a bonus action, effectively duel-wielding, but with ability score to damage, and only one weapon.

Passions were pretty high about this issue in the past.

[newsman77]

You're going to have a blast with this character. I made a similar one for a game but was unable to play it.

He was a Clint Eastwood-esque Gunslinger who specialized in "trick shots." His primary weapon was a hand crossbow, which is close to a six shooter, and was built off the Battlemaster chassis.

Here's the plan:
Vuman Fighter (Battlemaster 17)/Ranger 3
10/16/14/8/14/12
Starting Feat: Crossbow Expert
Fighting Style: Archery (+2 to ranged attacks)
Ranger Fighting Style: Defense (+1 to AC)

-The key is Crossbow Expert, which lets you use your bonus action to attack again.

-You can go Fighter to start and for the Action Surge (sometimes you need to empty the revolver on all those baddies). At level 3, you can pick up Battlemaster for the superiority dice and your "trick shots." Precision Attack, Trip Attack & Disarming Attack, because how cool would it be to "shoot" the weapon out of someone's hand. Then at 4 you pick up Sharpshooter, giving you a solid damage boost. 5th Level brings you "Extra Attack."

-You could just go straight fighter, but I liked splashing Ranger in for the level 3 bonus: Horde Breaker for the free attack (which really pays off at our table). You also pick up the extra fighting style and some minor spellcasting buffs.

-Of course you can flavor him how you like, gruff and grit like Dirty Harry or a little charming like Han Solo.

[Sir cryosin]

I played a battle master fighter fiend warlock build it was a demon hunter from diablo 3 and the best this I loved to do was grab devils sight invocation and drop down darkness and rang the crap out of everything and they could never hit me and if they did I have temp hit point to burn first that was if they got pass my heavy plate armor

[Kirion]

There may be better uses for your bonus action though, depending on build. Rangers will likely want to keep it free for hunters mark, swift quiver, etc. The magic initiate feat might also interest you, you can grab a 1/day hex or hunters mark for emergency damage boosts and some neat cantrip tricks to boot.
Hand crossbows have a pretty awful range as well, something to consider.

EKs also get access to haste, which is pretty damn awesome. Melee isnt much of a concern if you're putting in effort to stay away from the pointy sticks, being an archer type and all. Not to say you cant just grab your shortsword as a fighter and still be awesome, both battlemaster and EK will still give you benefits when doing so.

Yeah, until you pick up Sharpshooter then the 30ft range isn't the best. I might want to pick up the feat earlier than level 8 or have a bow as backup.

Hex/Hunter's Mark on top of the 2-3 crossbow shots would be really sweet! If I take it with Magic Initiate, can I cast it with my EK spell slots?

Haste is good too. Though you can only cast it twice starting at level 13, which is a while away. We'd be starting at level 3.

Champion may be a good choice as well but it doesn't interest me. I prefer having more options.



So the campaign starts soon as we start at level 3. If I go Battle Master, I'd get 4 superiority dice and 3 maneuvers, likely Menacing Strike (which appears to be strictly better than Goading Attack?), Pushing Attack, and Precision Attack. If I go Eldritch Knight, I know spells.. never played a Wizard so I don't know what spells. Shield and stuff?

[BladeWing81]

You could also go Vuman Archery Hunter-Ranger with Criminal Background with an Enforcer specialty and Redemption as an Ideal, Crossbow expert as a Feat and colossal slayer. at lvl 4 ASI Dex to 18 or Sharpshooter Feat. Then after lvl 5 extra attack MC to rogue assassin for sneak attack and expertise.

You'll have at lvl 8 at least +8 to Hit and 2d6 (Xbow and hunters mark) +3 Dex + 2d6 Sneak attack + 1d8 Colossal Slayer if enemy is already damaged. Double most of that if you make the surprise stealth attack from Assassin auto crit and maybe add a +10 damage if you use the sharpshooter feat for a +3 hit instead of +8. and that's just one attack.

[ZenBear]

Yeah, until you pick up Sharpshooter then the 30ft range isn't the best. I might want to pick up the feat earlier than level 8 or have a bow as backup.

Hex/Hunter's Mark on top of the 2-3 crossbow shots would be really sweet! If I take it with Magic Initiate, can I cast it with my EK spell slots?

Haste is good too. Though you can only cast it twice starting at level 13, which is a while away. We'd be starting at level 3.

Champion may be a good choice as well but it doesn't interest me. I prefer having more options.



So the campaign starts soon as we start at level 3. If I go Battle Master, I'd get 4 superiority dice and 3 maneuvers, likely Menacing Strike (which appears to be strictly better than Goading Attack?), Pushing Attack, and Precision Attack. If I go Eldritch Knight, I know spells.. never played a Wizard so I don't know what spells. Shield and stuff?

You can only use EK spell slots for the Magic Initiate spell if it's on the Wizard spell list, so no dice with Hex/Hunter's Mark.

Menacing Strike won't work on creatures immune to fear, like undead. Goading Attack does, and makes any enemy prefer to hit you over your allies. For you, probably Menacing is better, along with Precise and Disarm.

[JohnDoe]

Yeah, until you pick up Sharpshooter then the 30ft range isn't the best. I might want to pick up the feat earlier than level 8 or have a bow as backup.

Hex/Hunter's Mark on top of the 2-3 crossbow shots would be really sweet! If I take it with Magic Initiate, can I cast it with my EK spell slots?



You can only use EK spell slots for the Magic Initiate spell if it's on the Wizard spell list, so no dice with Hex/Hunter's Mark.

______________________
Magic Initiate:

Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. You learn two cantrips of your choice from that class’s spell list.

In addition, choose one 1st-level spell from that same list. You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again.

Your spellcasting ability for these spells depends on the class you chose: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid: or Intelligence for wizard.
_____________________________

Choose a Class, Choose a spell, Cast once per long rest





Haste is good too. Though you can only cast it twice starting at level 13, which is a while away. We'd be starting at level 3.


The Spells Known column of the Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows when you learn more wizard spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an abjuration or evocation spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 7th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.

The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic.

________________________

You would learn Haste @ 14th. It is a Transmutation spell.




Champion may be a good choice as well but it doesn't interest me. I prefer having more options.

So the campaign starts soon as we start at level 3. If I go Battle Master, I'd get 4 superiority dice and 3 maneuvers, likely Menacing Strike (which appears to be strictly better than Goading Attack?), Pushing Attack, and Precision Attack.



Menacing Strike won't work on creatures immune to fear, like undead. Goading Attack does, and makes any enemy prefer to hit you over your allies. For you, probably Menacing is better, along with Precise and Disarm.

Battlemaster is much closer to a gunslinger.

You end up with a lot of superiority die and maneuvers which can be used on weapon attacks, not necessarily melee attacks.

That's the route I would go if I wanted to play a gunslinger. (Just use a crossbow and fluff it as a firearm).

_________________________________

[JohnDoe]

Maneuvers:

Again, most maneuvers don't rely on a melee weapon attack, and are great 'spells' to have. You regain them after only a short rest, and they're used during your attack action, rather than replacing it.

There obvious maneuvers for a gunslinger, like Precision Attack, but there are others that are very, very useful --- especially when readied or coordinated with a team.

You don't have to just hit things as a fighter.


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Compare Battlemaster's Rally with Bard's Healing Word:

Rally:
Rally. On your turn, you can use a bonus action and expend one superiority die to bolster the resolve of one of your companions. When you do so, choose a friendly creature who can see or hear you. That creature gains temporary hit points equal to the superiority die roll + your Charisma modifier.

Healing Word:
A creature of your choice that you can see within range regains hit points equal to 1d4 + your spellcasting ability modifier. This spell has no effect on undead
or constructs.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the healing increases by 1d4 for each slot level above 1st.

Battlemaster: lvl 3
d8+Charisma
4 superiority die / Short Rest

Bard: lvl 3
2d4+Charisma(lvl 2 slot)
2 lvl2 Slots / Long Rest
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The Bard is going to have to burn precious spell slots, long rest slots, to have even a minimal advantage:

Battlemaster: lvl 10
d10+Charisma
5 superiority die / Short Rest

Bard: lvl 3
5d4+Charisma(lvl 5 slot)
2 lvl5 Slots / Long Rest

That's only an average 7 more hit points granted, burning a 5th level spell slot. This also requires regaining hit points -- rally allows the creature to gain temporary hit points, and negate taking any damage to begin with.
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Parry can negate damage when you're hit

Trip Attack
Can be used to knock a creature prone.
****The creature is going to act before you act again. It will stand up for your next action so you don't have to worry about having disadvantage at range.
****You don't want the creature to stand up immediately after getting knocked prone. Ready an action, trip the creature after its turn, then let your party smash it with advantage on +10 GWM attacks

Maneuvering Attack
Can help get party members out of bad situations, move them to the other side of a party tank, etc.

Goading Attack
Can force disadvantage on attacks against anyone but you. You can move well out of their movement range, attack them, and they're going to either have to wade through allies provoking AoO to even try to reach you, or be stuck with disadvantage.