At what point in the game have you found that multiclassing starts to pay off?

[somehownotsingl]

I've found that 5th edition has great multiclassing potential in theory, but I've also found that the gap between theory and the table seems much bigger in this edition than in previous ones. Most MC'ing I've done or seen done doesn't start paying off until mid-high to high levels, something a large percentage of games never reach.

In other words, there are a lot of sweet 2 [first class] / 18 [second class] combos out there (or 5/15 or 7/13, etc), but playing 2 [ first class]/ 1-5 [second class] is a chore.

Has anyone had better experiences with multiclassing in actual game play? How long did it take for your particular concept to start paying off?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I've found that 5th edition has great multiclassing potential in theory, but I've also found that the gap between theory and the table seems much bigger in this edition than in previous ones. Most MC'ing I've done or seen done doesn't start paying off until mid-high to high levels, something a large percentage of games never reach.

In other words, there are a lot of sweet 2 [first class] / 18 [second class] combos out there (or 5/15 or 7/13, etc), but playing 2 [ first class]/ 1-5 [second class] is a chore.

Has anyone had better experiences with multiclassing in actual game play? How long did it take for your particular concept to start paying off?

When your character concept is realized.

[somehownotsingl]

When your character concept is realized.

Then, as I follow up question, I guess I would ask how many levels you typically find it takes to pull off your own MC concepts? Maybe my concepts are just incompatible with 5e mechanics :-)

[MaxWilson]

I've found that 5th edition has great multiclassing potential in theory, but I've also found that the gap between theory and the table seems much bigger in this edition than in previous ones. Most MC'ing I've done or seen done doesn't start paying off until mid-high to high levels, something a large percentage of games never reach.

In other words, there are a lot of sweet 2 [first class] / 18 [second class] combos out there (or 5/15 or 7/13, etc), but playing 2 [ first class]/ 1-5 [second class] is a chore.

Has anyone had better experiences with multiclassing in actual game play? How long did it take for your particular concept to start paying off?

Usually a dip like Warlock 2, Sorcerer 1, or Rogue 2 starts to really pay off by 5th level IME. Sometimes as early as 2nd.

[Kane0]

Level 6-10. You need level 2-3 for a subclass, 4 for and ASI and 5 for Extra attack or other features like 3rd level spells, 6+ is where you can usually afford to dip out of your main without losing those important first parts but before the 11+ range where you usually get another boost if you were single classed.

[Rummy]

I'm playing a F1/W4 blade lock. It pays off at level 2.

I'm also playing a F1W3 Evoker. It was frustrating waiting until level 4 for real offensive spells. Wizards kinda suck before third level. They are fantastic at fifth level... I know that waiting until sixth level will blow.

[MaxWilson]

I'm playing a F1/W4 blade lock. It pays off at level 2.

I'm also playing a F1W3 Evoker. It was frustrating waiting until level 4 for real offensive spells. Wizards kinda suck before third level. They are fantastic at fifth level... I know that waiting until sixth level will blow.

I quite like low-level wizard spells like Web and Suggestion. Mage Armor is fun to cast on the Moon Druid.

[Rummy]

I quite like low-level wizard spells like Web and Suggestion. Mage Armor is fun to cast on the Moon Druid.

But they only get 2-3 spells a day! The best thing about being a wizard in levels 1 and 2 is that level 3 comes quickly. Anyways, as a F1 Wiz1, I was the tank in a ranged focus party. We would have wiped if not for my level of fighter, so it really paid off at level one.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Then, as I follow up question, I guess I would ask how many levels you typically find it takes to pull off your own MC concepts? Maybe my concepts are just incompatible with 5e mechanics :-)

Completely depends on the character I'm making.

Typically in 5e the drop off point for most classes is 1 - 5, as you get a lot of "meat" of your character within the first 5 levels.

Depending on what your concepts are, yes, they may be incompatible with 5e. 5e isn't a very flexible system and it is quite new, you won't be able to as much with it as you can 3e or 4e since there just isn't the number of options.

Martial classes are especially dippable as you get huge rewards for going levels 1 - 5, casters you will typically want to go at least late levels because they get some things that just wreck the game.

[MaxWilson]

But they only get 2-3 spells a day! The best thing about being a wizard in levels 1 and 2 is that level 3 comes quickly. Anyways, as a F1 Wiz1, I was the tank in a ranged focus party. We would have wiped if not for my level of fighter, so it really paid off at level one.

"Only" 2-3 spells a day? Back in my day, sonny, one spell per day was all we got, and we liked it. Usually had to burn that one spell to escape certain death at the claws of a common housecat.

Besides, spending one spell that day to give the Moon Druid Giant Hyena AC 15 on his 2/short rest sack of giant hit points is a pretty good deal. Use your other spell per day to reserve a Sleep in case you get ambushed by goblins. Other than that, plink away with your crossbow and cast Minor Illusion, unless you an Enchanter and then you get to have fun hypnotizing things with your eyes.

And yes, level 3 does come quickly.

[Rummy]

"Only" 2-3 spells a day? Back in my day, sonny, one spell per day was all we got, and we liked it. Usually had to burn that one spell to escape certain death at the claws of a common housecat.

Besides, spending one spell that day to give the Moon Druid Giant Hyena AC 15 on his 2/short rest sack of giant hit points is a pretty good deal. Use your other spell per day to reserve a Sleep in case you get ambushed by goblins. Other than that, plink away with your crossbow and cast Minor Illusion, unless you an Enchanter and then you get to have fun hypnotizing things with your eyes.

And yes, level 3 does come quickly.

Yeah... That is the true pain of multiclassing. The wait from F1Wiz2 to 4th level was particularly excruciating. Especially for an Evoker.

Some combos, like blade locks dipping (starting) fighters or rogues dipping fighter are not painful at all. In general, I think dipping that delays third level spells or multiattacks is painful, although Green Flame Blade taking a lot of the sting out, if applicable, because cantrips key off of character level. That is one of the reasons sorclocks are so popular.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah... That is the true pain of multiclassing. The wait from F1Wiz2 to 4th level was particularly excruciating. Especially for an Evoker.

Some combos, like blade locks dipping (starting) fighters or rogues dipping fighter are not painful at all. In general, I think dipping that delays third level spells or multiattacks is painful, although Green Flame Blade taking a lot of the sting out, if applicable, because cantrips key off of character level. That is one of the reasons sorclocks are so popular.

I don't think third level spells are as big of a deal in 5E, because Web is so good already for the same scenarios you'd want to Fireball.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I don't think third level spells are as big of a deal in 5E, because Web is so good already for the same scenarios you'd want to Fireball.

They ain't, well not really, but the slots typically are.

3rd level spells is when you start to be able to effect outside of battle in really awesome ways... Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Create Food and Water, Fly, Glyph of Warding, and Speak with dead are all insanely awesome outside of battle spells.

[coredump]

Its going to depend a lot on the class concept. My concepts tend to come together pretty early,, by level 3, maybe 4. But other folks have concepts that don't really gel until level 8-9.

A lot of those 17-3 type builds aren't really MC builds in my opinion, because they often don't grab the second class until pretty late.

There are plenty of 'dip one level of X first' builds that will benefit almost immediately. (Lets say a fighter 1 bladelock build)

[Rummy]

I don't think third level spells are as big of a deal in 5E, because Web is so good already for the same scenarios you'd want to Fireball.

Web isn't party friendly like Fireball cast by an Evoker. Also, web doesn't do damage and is a much smaller area. Also web uses concentration, which is more of an issue later on when you have more spell slots and want to have haste/fly/magic weapon on the barbarian.

[MaxWilson]

Web isn't party friendly like Fireball cast by an Evoker. Also, web doesn't do damage and is a much smaller area. Also web uses concentration, which is more of an issue later on when you have more spell slots and want to have haste/fly/magic weapon on the barbarian.

Careful Web by a Sorcerer is actually more party-friendly than a Fireball from an Evoker--it creates a zone of relative safely on the battlefield for the whole party, instead of just a single blast of pain to the enemy.

Web isn't all that much smaller. Flip it on its side and you can cover a 20' x 28' rectangle, which means you get one axis along which it is 75% as big as Fireball, and another axis along which it is significantly narrower. (Sometimes having a rectangular instead of spherical area is a good thing for avoiding friendly fire... the exact thing which you mentioned a minute ago. It gives you more options for positioning the Web to your advantage.)

Later on when you have more spell slots, yes, your concentration is in more demand and the opportunity cost is higher. But I thought we were talking about how painful it is to not be 5th level? Concentration opportunity cost is exactly why it's not all that painful. You're not missing out on the whole utility of "Fly", for example, you're missing out on the utility of "Fly minus Web" or "Fly Minus Expeditious Retreat", which is relatively small.

[Skylivedk]

I'm currently playing a hunter 4 (I'll ding to 5 after our first encounter this evening) / assassin 3 (which I'll pursue after the fifth level in hunter). He's a bounty hunter and has performed the duties of investigator, ranged dps and skill monkey.

We started at level five (assassin 3/ranger 2) The MC has been value all the way. Had I played from level 1, I imagine the first ranger level would have been the most painful. Still, it'd be one more proficiency.

From level five and forward every level has been Christmas eve. From the get-go I could hit better than anybody (archery is sweet!).

For starting equipment, I had poison, every single trap in the PHB (caltrops!!!) and, most importantly, 3 mastiffs (with saddles for carrying capacity) that could track and chase down/provide advantage.

Lvl 7 introduced sharpshooter which has turned quite a few encounters into walk-overs (single-handedly slaying wyverns, entire patrols, etc.)

Lvl 8 will be the dawn of his extra attack, meaning my surprise rounds can take out almost any wizard before he utters "the Mongoose?!? oh f***".

Level 9 will give either observant, or, probably, alert (the DM doesn't seem to do much in terms of passive perception/investigation).

[JakOfAllTirades]

I'm waiting until rather late to multiclass; as of 12th level I'm "finished" taking Warlock levels because there's not much left after that for the Blade Pact. (Gotta have the LifeDrinker Invocation!) Then I'll start on Rogue/Swashbuckler. I expect it'll start paying off pretty immediately when I take my first Rogue level at 13. Sneak attack will boost the damage on my pact blade, and I'm the party "face man" so Expertise is going into Deception and Persuasion.

I'm not so sure about the 2nd level of Rogue: Cunning Action will have to compete with lots of other uses for my Bonus action. But when I hit Rogue/3, the payoff will be worth it: another d6 of Sneak Attack, and the Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork and Rakish Audacity features. (Dex+Cha for Initiative!)

[Arkhios]

I believe that 'when' the character concept starts to pay off depends largely on what you lose from your original class, and what you gain from the second class in return, to fulfil the character concept you're looking for.

For example, a MC between a fighter1st class! and a rogue2nd class! would lose in a "characteristic pinnacle feature" of Extra Attack, if the multiclassing took place before the 5th fighter level. Assuming that the character would later return to advancing the fighter levels, the longer he waits, the later he'll get the benefit of one additional attack per round. Now, this might be an acceptable trade-off if the player saw his or her character more as a rogue rather than a fighter (since in general rogues do not gain extra attack at all). However, if he or she pictured the character being more of a fighter, he might feel compelled to get the Extra Attack sooner rather than later.

When looking at classes which get Extra Attack from their archetypes (mainly Valor Bard, sans the UA options), it's completely viable if you get the Extra Attack one level later than usual, at 6th (character) level, because at that point you won't be too much behind of the second-best class option, in that regard. Likewise, if assumed that most clerics' domain feature Divine Strike at 8th level is to set-off the lack of combat prowess normally gained through either damaging cantrips and/or extra attacks, it would set the latest stage of gaining extra attack at 8th (character) level.

This in mind, a martial-oriented class with Extra attack combined with a class that doesn't get Extra Attack has (in theory at least) a sweet spot between 6th to 8th level where he should get the feature, without suffering and staying too much behind the so-called power curve.

In the case of a class combination that doesn't get Extra attack at all, the point where a character hits the aimed concept depends largely on what you want from the classes you're taking levels in. As said, it can range from as early as 2nd level up to 5th or 6th level, as most often character concepts seem to value the features gained from sub-classes rather than the general class features themselves, and those are gained at the very least at 3rd class level.

In the end, I believe the cookie-cutter of these multiclassing choices depends on whether you can get Extra Attack or not. Ability Score Improvements seem to stay behind that in the priority order. Although it's common to stop advancing the second (or first) class until they get their first ASI, which can happen anywhere between 5th to 7th level.

The earliest possible sweet-spot where all character concepts pay off seems to be between levels 2 to 8, from the above analysis. I may have overlooked something, but this is my opinion. Lets all agree to disagree, shall we? :)

[Theodoxus]

I don't like to build concepts where there are 'unhappy' levels. So, when I MC, I look at what assets I'm getting at each level and play the character to those benefits.

This would mean, if I'm playing a Fighter -> Warlock MC, I'll start off with however I envision the fighter (or perhaps by necessity, what the party needs him to be) and then when I switch to Warlock, I still use the fighter mechanics - typically going switchhitter; start with EB at range and if the target gets in my face, switch to melee beatdown. I keep that playstyle until the Warlock levels allow me to play like a Warlock (in whatever fashion - though probably Bladelock, with that build.)

The one time I didn't follow this self-imposed 'rule' was when I built a rogue/cleric for a game starting at 5th level. The character was a mess, from 5th to 8th (4/4) level, as it was trying to be both a cleric and a rogue at the same time (I went AT and Knowledge - and ended up being Face, Heals, Scout, Skills and DPS - juggling too much with a poor design).

Were I to do it again (with that setup), I would definitely concentrate on being a skillmonkey with spell support. Getting locked into indecisiveness (do I run forward and try to sneak, or stay back and use Sacred Flame... do I cast Bless and help the party, or do I hide and save myself...)


So to answer the OP specifically, I find that MC pays off only when you're happy with every level decision, or can wait until the feature you're really wanting comes online.

[CNagy]

Personally, I don't care much for the "my build comes online at X" school of thought, so when it starts to pay off is when you find an opportunity to use the skills and abilities from your new class to resolve some problem facing the party.

I almost always multiclass, and to me it is far more important to arrange your levels so that a) you are hitting increased power benchmarks within a level of single-classed characters, and b) you are always competently fulfilling a specific role in the party. As long as you can fulfill those conditions, in my mind, you can multiclass without overly burdening the party.

[Zman]

I love Fighter/Sorcerer for a Gish. Even Fighter1/Sorcerer3 is a blast. You Quicken Blurr, you have ranged magical attacks, shield makes you extremely hard to hit, etc. Before 1/3 it is fun at 1/1, I even started off as Sorc and used a scimitar without proficiency until Fighter 1, fake it till you make it, haha! I can definitely see Fighter2/Sorcerer18 for a Gish, I'm also looking at Eldritch Knight6/Sorcerer14 to sneak in some more ASI or EK4/Sorc16 to hit 8th Level Spells and tons of Spell Points for quickened spells and twinned Booming Blades.

[AttilatheYeon]

For me it was Barbarian1/MoonDruid2.

[MrStabby]

If a big part of your character is cantrips, then you can MC pretty early and still have a lot of fun as you don't delay progression.

If you are a martial character then level six is the big one where you no longer have to wait for extra attack. I find that whatever you add to a martial character comes online pretty fast. By level 8/9 you should have the real core of your character (level 9 being something like valor bard for extra attack+3 levels to get an archetype in something else).

Of course this is assuming only two classes.

Fighter 5, paladin 2, rogue 3, ranger 3 will get you your key archetypes at level 13...



Personally I very rarely play a pure martial character - I always thing that leaving your concentration unused is a huge waste but even something like a level 1 dip into cleric gives you a pretty huge boost (bless).

[twomp01]

For me it was Barbarian1/MoonDruid2.

I'm playing that too! I added levels of Paladin as well. Currently it's Barb1/Druid2/Pally4. After Paladin 6 I'm gonna take all Druid levels, except for maybe the last one. I love being a bear and smiting something twice. Add in Goodberry and Lay on hands and I've got heals for days :D

[XmonkTad]

For me it was Barbarian1/MoonDruid2.

I went monk2/moon druid 2. If your DM lets you apply monk armor to wildshape forms you're golden. I did, but I didn't get to use martial arts for bonus action unarmed attacks.

[Rummy]

Careful Web by a Sorcerer is actually more party-friendly than a Fireball from an Evoker--it creates a zone of relative safely on the battlefield for the whole party, instead of just a single blast of pain to the enemy.

Web isn't all that much smaller. Flip it on its side and you can cover a 20' x 28' rectangle, which means you get one axis along which it is 75% as big as Fireball, and another axis along which it is significantly narrower. (Sometimes having a rectangular instead of spherical area is a good thing for avoiding friendly fire... the exact thing which you mentioned a minute ago. It gives you more options for positioning the Web to your advantage.)

Later on when you have more spell slots, yes, your concentration is in more demand and the opportunity cost is higher. But I thought we were talking about how painful it is to not be 5th level? Concentration opportunity cost is exactly why it's not all that painful. You're not missing out on the whole utility of "Fly", for example, you're missing out on the utility of "Fly minus Web" or "Fly Minus Expeditious Retreat", which is relatively small.

The point of origin for a cube must be on its face. This limits the positioning more than you imply. Also, I wouldn't allow complex geometrical positioning if I were DM. It's the sorta thing that would really only benefit players. I make the spells function the same for monsters and PCs.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The point of origin for a cube must be on its face. This limits the positioning more than you imply. Also, I wouldn't allow complex geometrical positioning if I were DM. It's the sorta thing that would really only benefit players. I make the spells function the same for monsters and PCs.

So wait, for a Int based class you wouldn't let them use complex geometrical positioning?

I mean, like, seems like the sort of thing a wizard should be doing.

[Rummy]

So wait, for a Int based class you wouldn't let them use complex geometrical positioning?

I mean, like, seems like the sort of thing a wizard should be doing.

Maybe you are correct. Now that I think about it, I'd create a template, so that we could measure the distances quickly. And that would let me do the same for NPC wizards.