Darkest Dungeon (For Real This Time)

[Amaril]

So Darkest Dungeon (http://www.darkestdungeon.com/), the excellent dungeon-crawling RPG by Red Hook Studios, left early access and was released in full today. I've been interested in the game since I first found out about it a long time ago, but have held off picking it up until it got to this point in development; now that it has, I've been playing it all day and am loving every minute. Since the only thread I could find for it seems to be long dead, I figured I'd go ahead and start a new one in honor of the occasion.

I have to say, so far, the game really reminds me of my experiences with old-school D&D in a way few games ever have, in that you spend most of your time in dungeons and rely heavily on the dice to determine your fate. I'm in week eight, I believe, and just recently defeated the Apprentice Necromancer. My strongest heroes are at level 2, and somehow I haven't lost anyone yet (I've been really lucky with my rolls).

Anyone else playing this?

[Rodin]

I've been playing the game on and off since it was initially put into EA. The game's improved massively over that time and I'm particularly impressed by what they've done with the last couple balance passes - they've managed to make everything go very smooth. I've never taken things all the way up to the tier 5 dungeons and have started a new game for the official release. Currently sitting at level 3 with most of my characters and hitting the "gear plateau" that always troubles me - dungeons tough enough that I need better weapons and armor, but not enough deeds to upgrade my armory and not enough gold to fill out my teams.

I think this run is a record for me in that I haven't had anyone die yet (excluding the very early games back in February when the game wasn't difficult yet). I've had a few close calls with multiple characters on Death's Door, but so far they've been grimly clinging to life for me.

[Eldan]

Oh, so I'm not the only one who can never afford gear. I've had it for a while, but haven't played it in some months. Very atmospheric, but the combat system never really clicked with me. More a short-time diversion than anything I'd invest a lot of time in.

[Chen]

So I played this when it first came out and I stopped after the balancing patch that gutted Protection and gave massive damage reduction to almost all the monsters. Have there been more balance patches since then? After that protection patch it really felt hugely RNG and much less fun than before.

[Amaril]

Just lost my Vestal, Montaigu, on my first foray into the Cove :smallfrown: She'll be sorely missed--she was my best healer, and overall one of my strongest heroes (level 3 and with a ton of good Quirks).

I'm starting to feel that gear plateau; I've been investing heavily in the smithy, but if this last mission is any indication, I've got a lot more catching up to do than I'd hoped.


So I played this when it first came out and I stopped after the balancing patch that gutted Protection and gave massive damage reduction to almost all the monsters. Have there been more balance patches since then? After that protection patch it really felt hugely RNG and much less fun than before.

Sorry, I don't really know anything about that, having never played the early game.

[Rodin]

So I played this when it first came out and I stopped after the balancing patch that gutted Protection and gave massive damage reduction to almost all the monsters. Have there been more balance patches since then? After that protection patch it really felt hugely RNG and much less fun than before.

Yes, many. Firstly, a lot of the monsters that got Prot in that initial patch had it taken away once they realized how insane Prot is. Secondly, there are now several debuff skills that reduce enemy Prot or Damage, so you can spec your party to be able to reduce Prot and hammer down tough opponents or nullify them with stat debuffs until you're ready to grind them down. Thirdly, DoT skills have been massively enhanced since the early days and can make quick work of a high Prot opponent since DoTs ignore it.

As to the RNG element, it's more RNG than when you first started playing but much less than it was after that patch. They've reduced enemy crit rates, increased hero accuracy, and generally made things less random. RNJesus is still a major factor though, so if such things truly annoy you than it may not be for you. I still think it doesn't feel any more RNG-controlled than the likes of FTL and Binding of Isaac, personally.

As much as anything, playing cautiously is really the way to do well. I've so far had to withdraw from only one quest, and that was because I forgot to equip trinkets and brought a Plague Doctor into the Weald. 3 heroes + 1 dead weight is not a recipe for success.

[Hydranova]

So apparently the Abomination is pretty rad at taking on the Tier One Hag if you just go charging in. And pretty rad in regards to taking on almost anything else. Shame he can't be paired with the Crusader, though.

[lord_khaine]

Has they done anything to fix the later part of the game?
So that the only effect of crawling in level and dungeon tier is not higher numbers?

[Rodin]

Has they done anything to fix the later part of the game?
So that the only effect of crawling in level and dungeon tier is not higher numbers?

There's a pretty big difference between Apprentice and Veteran dungeons now - there are bigger monsters in the latter, and a lot of the monsters have added effects to their moves like debuffs, marks, drag effects, etc.

I've only really dipped my toe into the Champion dungeons, but those so far seem to be mostly stat increases. Biggest differences I've seen so far is that the enemies are SMART. They landed a couple crits on my Leper and then hammered him repeatedly until he died, then repeated the same for my Occultist. There was also a much higher chance of having enemies spawn behind you, making backtracking a really dangerous proposition.

While I don't know for sure, I've also heard that some of the Champion bosses have new moves - for instance, the Necromancer likes to summon those giant skeletons.

And of course, there's the new final dungeon, of which I know nothing yet. Fairly sure there's new enemies and bosses down there though.

[Amaril]

I've only really dipped my toe into the Champion dungeons, but those so far seem to be mostly stat increases. Biggest differences I've seen so far is that the enemies are SMART. They landed a couple crits on my Leper and then hammered him repeatedly until he died, then repeated the same for my Occultist.

Yeah, I ran into some of that today. Had my Occultist in the healer spot, and the enemies just wouldn't stop going after him. Can't remember for sure, but I think I had to retreat from that quest.

Speaking of, is it just me or is the Cove a lot more dangerous than all the other dungeons? Seems like the enemies are doing insane amounts of damage compared to everywhere else. How do you build for it?

[Ailurus]

Speaking of, is it just me or is the Cove a lot more dangerous than all the other dungeons? Seems like the enemies are doing insane amounts of damage compared to everywhere else. How do you build for it?

Cove is probably the hardest, just due to the fact it was added later so the enemies have more variety in their move-sets

Things to keep in mind for it:

1) Be prepared to deal with Bleed damage, either through items or abilities (especially once you get to the veteran dungeons)
2) Bring Blight damage. There's a good number of high PROT enemies, and most enemies are low on blight
3) Stuns are handy too. Even in apprentice dungeons, there's monsters that heal, monsters that guard their allies, and monsters that will deal ridiculous amounts of damage (I really think 4 of the piranha guys is the worst encounter you can get)

The top three heroes for it, IMO, are the Plague Doctor, Grave Robber and the Occultist. The Doctor has Plague Grenade and Noxious Blast are both great for dealing with enemies in there, and Battlefield Medicine is a small heal and removes Bleed. The Robber is pretty dodgy, can also stack blight, and with a little luck a well-timed Lunge can one-shot a lot of the weaker enemies. And the Occultist has bonus damage to Eldritch on a lot of his abilities, and most everything in the cove is Eldritch.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I held off on it after playing for a bit in Early Access, because I decided that if I kept going with the updates, it would eventually release and I would've played all the content already. So now I'm planning on finally doing a playthrough! Next week, anyhow.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Speaking of, is it just me or is the Cove a lot more dangerous than all the other dungeons? Seems like the enemies are doing insane amounts of damage compared to everywhere else. How do you build for it?

As was said, it's more that the enemies in the Cove have had more attention put into them than anything else. They don't deal particularly high damage, but the Shaman has a broader skillset than Acolyte/Madman/Drummer/Wretch. The Guardian does surprisingly significant damage with his Octocestus, considering he also has high Prot and can guard. Grave Robbers are very important to get those Poison Darts on the Guardians. Thralls and Shockers have to be dealt with quickly. Still, I don't find things in the Cove particularly more dangerous than Brigand Cutthroats.

I'm not sure if I'll simply continue my old run or not. I have hit that gear plateau, need to upgrade the smithy for level 4 weapons to get my Veterans up and running (already got the armor!), but I have some great veterans ready for those weapon upgrades, and while my cash isn't significantly rising I'm not in financial trouble. I got a couple weeks into a new campaign and it's already going worse.

[Amaril]

Oh, also, about the gear plateau: I'm stuck at level 2 weapons and level 1 armor, with my highest heroes being level 4. Is that why I'm finding the Veteran dungeons impossible? I feel like it must be, but I'm really struggling to fix it...

[Hiro Protagonest]

Oh, also, about the gear plateau: I'm stuck at level 2 weapons and level 1 armor, with my highest heroes being level 4. Is that why I'm finding the Veteran dungeons impossible? I feel like it must be, but I'm really struggling to fix it...

Hell yeah. Better armor increases HP AND Dodge, it's awesome.

Do a lot of expendables missions. Take a decent party of level 0s (and any level 1s that you don't mind having the chance of dying) and go on some short or even medium missions (short ones tend to be better, since you're more likely to complete those. Just because they're expendable doesn't mean you don't want them to live and have low stress). Recreation costs money. Sanitarium costs money. Upgrades cost money. New heroes are completely free. Grab whatever gold and heirlooms you can in those missions and you shouldn't have so much of a problem with upgrading buildings and your a-team (and b-team, and c-team... I barely manage to cycle out enough heroes to do expendable missions, there are too many I like).

[enderlord99]

This game is the usurper of the throne of "most disturbing thing commonly found on Twitch" formerly held by the Fishmoley.

[Starwulf]

Why oh Why must some of the funnest looking games have to be roguelikes? Hate perma-death stuff, and after looking at this game it looks like it could be a lot of fun, but I'll never know because I refuse to play a game where my time investment can go "poof" in an instant of bad luck.

[Hiro Protagonest]

roguelikes

... *sigh*

In any case, it is very, very difficult to permanently fail a run. The game isn't as hard as it looks, if you don't mind abusing the poor souls who come in on the Stage Coach.

[Starwulf]

... *sigh*

In any case, it is very, very difficult to permanently fail a run. The game isn't as hard as it looks, if you don't mind abusing the poor souls who come in on the Stage Coach.

Uhh, what was the ".... Sigh" bit for? At first I thought I spelled it "rouge", but nope, it's "Rogue" and unless google has it spelled wrong as well, I'd say I'm safe there.

It's not about the difficulty for me, it's about possibly dying at any point in time and losing that character permanently. I don't like investing substantial hours into a game, only for it to go up in flames. I don't play Hardcore in anything because of that. Just a bit frustrating though because I've seen a lot of really good, fun looking games lately come out and they've all been roguelikes with that whole genre's perma-death stuff. My only consolation right now is I finally got my computer down to my buddys house and he downloaded Divinity Original Sin for me. Loving that game!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Uhh, what was the ".... Sigh" bit for? At first I thought I spelled it "rouge", but nope, it's "Rogue" and unless google has it spelled wrong as well, I'd say I'm safe there.

It's not about the difficulty for me, it's about possibly dying at any point in time and losing that character permanently. I don't like investing substantial hours into a game, only for it to go up in flames. I don't play Hardcore in anything because of that. Just a bit frustrating though because I've seen a lot of really good, fun looking games lately come out and they've all been roguelikes with that whole genre's perma-death stuff. My only consolation right now is I finally got my computer down to my buddys house and he downloaded Divinity Original Sin for me. Loving that game!

This isn't a roguelike, and this isn't Fire Emblem. Losing a hero is a minor setback, not a significant one. It depends on the hero's level and all, but I go on far more rookie missions than high-level ones.

[Amaril]

... *sigh*

In any case, it is very, very difficult to permanently fail a run. The game isn't as hard as it looks, if you don't mind abusing the poor souls who come in on the Stage Coach.


This isn't a roguelike, and this isn't Fire Emblem. Losing a hero is a minor setback, not a significant one. It depends on the hero's level and all, but I go on far more rookie missions than high-level ones.

I think that's part of my problem--I can't see my heroes as expendable, they're all special to me. Keeping them alive is always my highest priority.

Had an extremely embarrassing experience a little while ago where I brought some of my strongest characters on my first Long expedition, and about three rooms in, accidentally discarded my entire remaining stack of torches while trying to clear space for more loot. I'm surprised I made it as far as I did after that, and that no one died :smallsigh::smalltongue:

[Rodin]

I think that's part of my problem--I can't see my heroes as expendable, they're all special to me. Keeping them alive is always my highest priority.

Had an extremely embarrassing experience a little while ago where I brought some of my strongest characters on my first Long expedition, and about three rooms in, accidentally discarded my entire remaining stack of torches while trying to clear space for more loot. I'm surprised I made it as far as I did after that, and that no one died :smallsigh::smalltongue:

Worst thing like that I've done so far was to click on the Provisioning screen, then remember that I hadn't trinketed my guys. Bring up trinket menu, equip everyone, and click the Provision button again...except I hadn't exited out from the first time, so the button was actually "Embark".

So I went into a Champion dungeon with exactly 0 supplies. I made it through one fight before I chickened out and abandoned.

As was said, it's more that the enemies in the Cove have had more attention put into them than anything else. They don't deal particularly high damage, but the Shaman has a broader skillset than Acolyte/Madman/Drummer/Wretch. The Guardian does surprisingly significant damage with his Octocestus, considering he also has high Prot and can guard. Grave Robbers are very important to get those Poison Darts on the Guardians. Thralls and Shockers have to be dealt with quickly. Still, I don't find things in the Cove particularly more dangerous than Brigand Cutthroats.



The one enemy from the Cove that does terrify me are the Pelagic Groupers. No special abilities or anything, but they hit like a truck and often come in groups of 4. Sure, the overall damage is probably about equivalent of the other monsters, but since they tend to focus it on a couple champions they can be a whole lot more dangerous. I hate them even worse than the giant crabs, which can at least be countered by the proper abilities.

[Ailurus]

I think that's part of my problem--I can't see my heroes as expendable, they're all special to me. Keeping them alive is always my highest priority.


Perma-death for them does exist, but is ... different.



Darkest Dungeon began as a thought exercise.

What would it really be like to battle the horrors so commonly dispatched in the games of our childhood? What would facing down unholy abominations day in and day out do to someone? What good is a glowing Sword of Unholy Slaying +5 in the hands of a blubbering coward?




Darkest Dungeon is about making the most of a bad situation...What will you sacrifice to save the life of your favorite hero?


Yes, heroes will die. Or go insane. Or go insane, then drive the rest of their party insane, and then get eaten by angry fish-men. Your graveyard *will* have bodies in its. And there *will* also be a stream of ex-heroes leaving your hamlet with broken minds. But, that's fine. It's supposed to happen. Because, if anything, the perma-death aspect mirrors an RTS more than anything.

No one playing an RTS gets upset when their zerglings or tanks or giant robots or grunts or whatever the units in your favorite RTS are blown up. In fact, in an RTS you're surprised if you don't get your army badly mauled at least a couple times. But, no one gets upset because that's what the army is there for. It's supposed to fight and die, and in the end it doesn't matter so long as your base is intact. Exact same thing here.

You're not the mighty warrior or wizard heading into the dungeon to slay the fiends. You're the heir to the estate. Your responsibility is the town. In effect, your character is the Hamlet, And, guess what? It's literally impossible to lose the Hamlet (there is no lose-state unless you're on NG+ mode) So your progress is never lost. Sure, your favorite crusader got squashed by a pig-demon. Sucks. But, there's always more troops. So, go grab someone with nice traits off the stagecoach, use your heavily upgraded Sanitarium to make the traits permanent (super-cheap, since she'll be low-level and you'll have tons of upgrades), use your advanced blacksmith and guild to give her weapons, armor and skills letting her punch above her level, and it's off to the front lines again.



Had an extremely embarrassing experience a little while ago where I brought some of my strongest characters on my first Long expedition, and about three rooms in, accidentally discarded my entire remaining stack of torches while trying to clear space for more loot. I'm surprised I made it as far as I did after that, and that no one died :smallsigh::smalltongue:
Welcome to Dark Runs. Douse the torch, and you're more likely to be surprised, you gain stress faster and the monsters do more damage. But, on the flip side, you crit more. And get a LOT more shinies. So, again - how far are you willing to push the hapless mooksvaliant heroes you have working for you?

[Starwulf]

Yes, heroes will die. Or go insane. Or go insane, then drive the rest of their party insane, and then get eaten by angry fish-men. Your graveyard *will* have bodies in its. And there *will* also be a stream of ex-heroes leaving your hamlet with broken minds. But, that's fine. It's supposed to happen. Because, if anything, the perma-death aspect mirrors an RTS more than anything.

No one playing an RTS gets upset when their zerglings or tanks or giant robots or grunts or whatever the units in your favorite RTS are blown up. In fact, in an RTS you're surprised if you don't get your army badly mauled at least a couple times. But, no one gets upset because that's what the army is there for. It's supposed to fight and die, and in the end it doesn't matter so long as your base is intact. Exact same thing here.

You're not the mighty warrior or wizard heading into the dungeon to slay the fiends. You're the heir to the estate. Your responsibility is the town. In effect, your character is the Hamlet, And, guess what? It's literally impossible to lose the Hamlet (there is no lose-state unless you're on NG+ mode) So your progress is never lost. Sure, your favorite crusader got squashed by a pig-demon. Sucks. But, there's always more troops. So, go grab someone with nice traits off the stagecoach, use your heavily upgraded Sanitarium to make the traits permanent (super-cheap, since she'll be low-level and you'll have tons of upgrades), use your advanced blacksmith and guild to give her weapons, armor and skills letting her punch above her level, and it's off to the front lines again.


Thank you for the explanation, that actually does ease my fears a bit, and I think once I actually have a spare $20(that could be a while, sadly), I might just pick this game up. Your explanation put my fears away and shed an entirely different(and very good) viewpoint on the situation of the game. It really doesn't sound like your typical roguelike, which is great!

[Amaril]

So, go grab someone with nice traits off the stagecoach, use your heavily upgraded Sanitarium to make the traits permanent (super-cheap, since she'll be low-level and you'll have tons of upgrades), use your advanced blacksmith and guild to give her weapons, armor and skills letting her punch above her level, and it's off to the front lines again.

Minor point of order: equipment and skill upgrades are gated by hero level, so there's really not much you can do in terms of making your rookies stronger off the bat. Would that it were so easy...


Welcome to Dark Runs. Douse the torch, and you're more likely to be surprised, you gain stress faster and the monsters do more damage. But, on the flip side, you crit more. And get a LOT more shinies. So, again - how far are you willing to push the hapless mooksvaliant heroes you have working for you?

Oh, I know dark runs are a thing, but I'm too much of a coward to try them :smalltongue: Especially given how underequipped my heroes are.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Minor point of order: equipment and skill upgrades are gated by hero level, so there's really not much you can do in terms of making your rookies stronger off the bat. Would that it were so easy...

Indeed. I have plenty of heroes I want to stay alive. But the ones from the stagecoach are yet to go through their first trials. And until they get to level 2, they're still liable for risky missions.

[huttj509]

It really doesn't sound like your typical roguelike, which is great!

Part of the problem is that Roguelike, as a term, no longer has much meaning. It's been too diluted, so that the term implies things that don't apply at all.

Is Binding of Isaac a Roguelike?
Is Darkest Dungeon a Roguelike? (It kinda bugs me that the steam page uses that term, but their website is MUCH better at actually describing what the game is, and doesn't use that term as a no longer meaningful shorthand)
Are Fire Emblem games Roguelikes? (absolutely not, but hey, they have no resurrection mechanics!)
Is a procedurally generated FPS a Roguelike?
Is XCOM a Roguelike?

So "but it's a roguelike" draws a sigh because it's not helpful. You mean something by it, but I don't know what you mean by it, because game X over there used it to mean something different, and person Y uses it to refer to something else.

[Starwulf]

Part of the problem is that Roguelike, as a term, no longer has much meaning. It's been too diluted, so that the term implies things that don't apply at all.

Is Binding of Isaac a Roguelike?
Is Darkest Dungeon a Roguelike? (It kinda bugs me that the steam page uses that term, but their website is MUCH better at actually describing what the game is, and doesn't use that term as a no longer meaningful shorthand)
Are Fire Emblem games Roguelikes? (absolutely not, but hey, they have no resurrection mechanics!)
Is a procedurally generated FPS a Roguelike?
Is XCOM a Roguelike?

So "but it's a roguelike" draws a sigh because it's not helpful. You mean something by it, but I don't know what you mean by it, because game X over there used it to mean something different, and person Y uses it to refer to something else.

All I can say is, is ".... sigh" is extremely unhelpful, and somewhat rude as a response in general. If a person doesn't know what I mean by roguelike(and quite frankly, I doubt anyone on this specific subforum doesn't know what I'm referencing when I use said term), all they have to do is ask and I'll clarify, which I actually did in that very post by saying how much I dislike perma-death. So while I did use the term, I also explained what I meant by said term in that very same post.

On the other hand, Ailurus was extremely helpful in his post(even though it wasn't directed towards me) in explaining WHY the game was not a roguelike, and how losing a hero really isn't a big deal and how the real bulk of the game lies in advancing your town/hamlet/whatever, whereas Hiro just continued to be ambiguous by saying "It's not a roguelike, it's not Fire Emblem(which I don't even know where in the world that came from), losing hero's isn't a big deal".

In the future, may-perhaps you shouldn't lecture someone over usage of a term that has multiple meanings when said person makes it clear as to what definition they are using in the very post they use said term in.

[Razade]

The game has a whole slew of problems with its RNG calculations but the art is great and the team is a group of great people.

[Ailurus]

Minor point of order: equipment and skill upgrades are gated by hero level, so there's really not much you can do in terms of making your rookies stronger off the bat. Would that it were so easy...


Early and mid-game, I fully agree. But, even though there are gates in place, I disagree late-game. 500 gold is negligable when you're running champion dungeons, so you can now afford to ensure each recruit gets the skills you want straight off the cart instead of their random assortment. Similarly, the cost of trait locking and removal scales with character level, so once you have savings its worth it to either lock in positives or scrap negatives right at the beginning. And even if you can't put max-level weapons on newbies, ensuring that they have the best for their level results in about +20% HP and Damage over what people would have had your first run-through.

[Rodin]

Early and mid-game, I fully agree. But, even though there are gates in place, I disagree late-game. 500 gold is negligable when you're running champion dungeons, so you can now afford to ensure each recruit gets the skills you want straight off the cart instead of their random assortment. Similarly, the cost of trait locking and removal scales with character level, so once you have savings its worth it to either lock in positives or scrap negatives right at the beginning. And even if you can't put max-level weapons on newbies, ensuring that they have the best for their level results in about +20% HP and Damage over what people would have had your first run-through.

The biggest difference I've found with new newbies is the Trinkets. A group of newbies with 40% damage across the board because you've got super rare equipment on them will absolutely murderize anything you come across.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I've been on Steam to have a look, and after the accolades I've seen elsewhere (plus my own observation of people recording/streaming games) I was surprised by the long line of red "thumbs down" comments.

The biggest mark appears to be the late game grind, the excess randomness of the later dungeons, and a certain endgame mechanic that leads to more hero grinding.

Those of you who've played it to the end, is this true? Is the endgame really unfairly random grinding? I was really excited about it, but only because I've seen people playing the early parts.

[Rodin]

I've been on Steam to have a look, and after the accolades I've seen elsewhere (plus my own observation of people recording/streaming games) I was surprised by the long line of red "thumbs down" comments.

The biggest mark appears to be the late game grind, the excess randomness of the later dungeons, and a certain endgame mechanic that leads to more hero grinding.

Those of you who've played it to the end, is this true? Is the endgame really unfairly random grinding? I was really excited about it, but only because I've seen people playing the early parts.

Well, it's kinda hard to say.

See, the #1 complaint I've seen on the forums is that the Champion level dungeons are far too difficult. And that's nonsense - once you're experienced with the game, know what you're doing, and have a properly geared team the Champion dungeons are a piece of cake. Yeah, you can get screwed by RNG every now and then, but no more so than the likes of X-Com. The Darkest Dungeon missions are the real endgame, and those can be frustratingly hard - but again, proper tactics and bringing the proper team layout can give you a very good chance of success.

The grindiness though, that is a definite problem. There's two main issues.

The first is the aforementioned Champion dungeons - to get a hero to survive down there, they need max level gear and skills. That is prohibitively expensive, which means spending lots of time grinding the lower level dungeons to get them the proper gear. Then you have to spend a bunch of money fixing up their quirks and a commensurate amount of time doing so - this means more grinding as you basically kill time. Then you get unlucky in the final dungeon and they all die, which equals more grinding...

The second is that mechanic you mentioned, which allows heroes to only have one victorious run in the final dungeon. If they lose and survive, they can go back, but not if they win. This means that the team you just spend weeks preparing to go in is now basically useless. If you didn't have the correct classes for the next wing? More grinding while you get them leveled up.

I personally don't consider this sufficent to prevent someone from buying the game - the first 90% of it is just too much fun to allow a weak finish to put you off. I haven't finished the game myself yet - the grindiness got to me and there's a glut of other games coming out in February that I want to play, so I set it aside. However, I do intend to come back to it and finish it off, and I can definitely see myself starting new runs in future.

I will recommend waiting until March 5th before picking it up. There's a major content patch with a new class and a feature that didn't make it in during Early Access, so the experience will probably be better. Plus, it gives them a bit more time to try and adjust the late-game problems which they have been working on (although without much success so far, I must say).

[Maryring]

One great thing about this game is how structured the game's files are, and how easily it is to manipulate the game-data. This makes the game very easy to mod, even if you've no experience with modding, which can be used to help ease some of the perceived problems or difficulties with the game.

Specifically, if you really don't like the permadeath aspect, while you can't really mod it out of the game it *is* possible to back up your save in cases of RNJesus failing you. Though keep in mind that it's also possible to get to the endgame without losing anyone. I've almost defeated all bosses, and I've yet to lose anyone (though there's been a few close calls. If RNJesus hates you, he *really* hates you).

Secondly, regarding having to grind up late-game classes, it's possible to increase the experience you get from quests. I don't recommend doing it unless you're needing specific classes for the Darkest Dungeon, since as is, the experience you gain is well balanced to the general progression of the game and dungeons, but it *is* possible and can be a great help against grinding.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I used to be really into Dwarf Fortress, so I'm not opposed to a game with permadeath that treats your named units which you spend time leveling and equipping as expendable. That's all part of the fun, as is RNG (if reasonable, which is subjective I know).

I am opposed to games that fake longevity by forcing you to spend extra time with contrived mechanics. "Never Again" seems like exactly that kind of mechanic. But that's just my opinion.

I think I will take Rodin's advice and wait on it. I'm having fun watching people play, especially Trump who seems to be trying his best to troll his viewers.

[Pronounceable]

I'd just cheat at that point. If you've played 20 hours of dungeoning, beat all bosses, done all the other stuff legit, there's no reason to do the same old for 20 more hours just for grind's sake. Get new guys off the cart, edit them to max, enter DD.

[shadow_archmagi]

I've been on Steam to have a look, and after the accolades I've seen elsewhere (plus my own observation of people recording/streaming games) I was surprised by the long line of red "thumbs down" comments.

The biggest mark appears to be the late game grind, the excess randomness of the later dungeons, and a certain endgame mechanic that leads to more hero grinding.

Those of you who've played it to the end, is this true? Is the endgame really unfairly random grinding? I was really excited about it, but only because I've seen people playing the early parts.

I burnt out after my level 4 vestal die after getting crit from 100% to 0% from a giant, then got hit by shuffle effect to move her to the front row where she couldn't heal. She was my last high-level Vestal, which meant if I wanted high-quality healing on my next run, I'd have to level another one up. That's at least six missions before I can use my level 4 party again. More if she ever gets stressed and has to stay home for a mission or two. More if we ever have to retreat. Could easily be ten missions.

Each mission being 15-30 minutes, that means I'll be devoting at least two-three hours, but maybe as many as five-six, to undoing this setback. Only then will I be able to play with my level 4 party and get them to level 5.



Imagine playing a version of XCOM where the only way to level up rookies was to fight sectoids with ballistic weapons. Your colonels died? Time to play six or seven early-game missions so your rookies can hit sergeant and equip laser weapons, and then four midgame missions to get your sergeants to captain so they can equip plasma. Now that we've gotten those eleven missions out of the way, you can fight another ethereal!

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I said I wouldn't, but I haven't had a long-term single-player game since the Mass Effect trilogy so I went and bought it.

So far I've killed the third level 5 boss (Hag, Necromancer, 16 pounder). 17 heroes in the grave. First two died because I forgot to bring a healer in a random Cove run. Four got blown up in my first attempt at the 16-pounder, taking their trinkets with them (sob). One became Irrational and hit himself to death. One died killing the level 3 Siren. One died killing the level 5 Hag. One died while defeating the level 5 Necromancer, and two more died of starvation in the same mission because I backtracked to get the secret room (in hindsight, definitely not worth it).

The game has some frustrating moments.

The slimes that can spawn other slimes are definitely one. Your heroes will decide that the fight's taking too long and stress themselves out, even though it's clearly because the enemies are hard. I get that there's a disincentive for slow-rolling a fight to farm heals, but I think allowances should be made if it's pretty obvious the team is struggling. Not sure how they'd implement it, but eh.

Random hunger checks that can inexplicably wipe out your entire food supply for no reason? Redhook pls. Because of this I always embark with maximum food now. Kind of inefficient, but better than my team starving to death or taking unnecessary stress. Most missions I end with food surplus, which is annoying if I run into a lot of loot early on.

Overall though it's been pretty fun. There's a good amount of class variety, and each class has a few options of what position they'll be used in. I once ran a second rank Vestal, just because I didn't have enough low-level heroes to get her in third or fourth. It was awkward, but it worked. Quirks are also fun to play around. You can game the system pretty easily, by "preserving" the negative quirks that have minimal impact on the character. The ones that block a specific type of stress relief are great value. Using the geographical quirks is also fun. Ruins Phobe only means anything in the Ruins, so if you never bring the character there it's another "free" quirk slot. The scouting quirks can make a pretty big difference too.

[Misery Esquire]

Specifically, if you really don't like the permadeath aspect, while you can't really mod it out of the game it *is* possible to back up your save in cases of RNJesus failing you. Though keep in mind that it's also possible to get to the endgame without losing anyone. I've almost defeated all bosses, and I've yet to lose anyone (though there's been a few close calls. If RNJesus hates you, he *really* hates you).

Any game with RNG automatically betrays me (I fail over 50% of "80% chance to succeed" rolls in some games), but Darkest Dungeon took the cake, and probably the plate. In six runs I lost in the tutorial twice, because my guys missed a bunch of times, and the bandits crit over and over.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Any game with RNG automatically betrays me (I fail over 50% of "80% chance to succeed" rolls in some games), but Darkest Dungeon took the cake, and probably the plate. In six runs I lost in the tutorial twice, because my guys missed a bunch of times, and the bandits crit over and over.

What happens if you lose the tutorial? Does the game save get deleted, or you just restart?

Crit spam is really irritating especially if your heroes are already stressed out. Also when the enemy has 7 health left, and you hit them with a 6-12 attack, it does 6 damage and the enemy crits in response with the 1 hp they have left. This is why during the 16 pounder fight I overloaded my Hellion's damage so that she could always guarantee a one-shot on the Fusilier.

[Misery Esquire]

What happens if you lose the tutorial? Does the game save get deleted, or you just restart?

It sends you on to town, where there's 4 heroes at the cart instead of 2, but I'm not the calmest fellow about getting cheated so hard, so I generally restart.

[Gandariel]

Small report:

I never really play single player games. I generally get bored without a human opponent.

Still, after seeing some twitch gameplay and recommendations, I gave it a try.
(A friend let me use his pc, I didn't buy it)

So.
I love the art and the atmosphere. Really love it.
The torch ticking down, the heroes saying things, the ambushes, the voice over, the descent into madness. Everything really well done.

The fighting was good, I liked the strategy in choosing heroes, abilities and positioning.

Tales of the game being hard made me play very cautiously, I often overstocked and took my sweet time before fighting a boss.

In the end I killed two level 1 bosses (Hag and Necromancer), which were actually anticlimactically easy (because of how cautious I had been) and then stopped playing.
Never lost anyone, noone got insane, I only got Death's door once against the Hag (who died of Blight before having a chance of attacking him)

My " main team" was Vestal, Plague Doctor, Highway man and Helion.

Overall I enjoyed everything. It was a bit too easy because I took it very cautiously, but that's my only real complaint.

I would have stopped anyways after a while, I can't really be engaged much in single player games.
Anyways, I really enjoy the game and I recommend it to anyone.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

-snip-

Overall I enjoyed everything. It was a bit too easy because I took it very cautiously, but that's my only real complaint.

I would have stopped anyways after a while, I can't really be engaged much in single player games.
Anyways, I really enjoy the game and I recommend it to anyone.

My experience was similar, with regards to the early game. The stories of the game being hard are likely from the later part of the game, once you get the level 5 dungeons and the darkest dungeon itself. I haven't reached DD yet, but level 5 dungeons can be quite challenging.

A single player game is like a crossword puzzle; you're challenging the person who designed it, indirectly. But I'm not really a PVP kind of guy so that probably affect how I see things.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

UPDATE!

The Antiquarian update is on the beta, which apparently means that they're going to take in player feedback before making the changes to the game itself.

Haven't had a chance to use the Antiquarian herself. Not entirely sure what she's supposed to do, to be honest.

1. You can exchange Heirlooms for each other. Might be less useful if you're already into the late game, but it's a good touch. The exchange is less than 100%, but better than nothing. In a similar vein, Heirloom rewards are no longer region-dependent.

2. The Stagecoach has a third upgrade line to enable higher level heroes to randomly show up. I've upgraded it to the maximum, and have seen level 3 heroes so far. Definitely a step up from losing a level 6 and having to raise a replacement from 0.

3. Highwayman and Arbalest appear to have received some minor buffs. Arbalest loses some bonus Speed from Blind Fire, but the buff applies even on a miss.

Frankly speaking after my second failed DD run I was quite happy to let the game sit idle. Maybe these and future changes will actually get me motivated to try again. We'll see.

[Rodin]

She looks interesting, but my game is steadfastly refusing to let me. 6 weeks, 6 heroes each week, no Antiquarian. Sigh.

Heirloom exchange has been pretty nice, it lets you focus your heirlooms into a single area for rapid growth. I think the strategy will be to push one or two buildings at a time, then go back and fill out what you miss out on from trading away the others. Very early game push Busts, to get your weekly stress reduction costs down. Then push Deeds, to get your weapons up and running. Then push Portraits, to get skills. Then, finally, you can push everything in Crests to get your camping skills and specific trinkets that RNJesus haven't seen fit to give you.

The RNG on the trinkets could actually use some artificial "evening". On my first run, I found Sun Rings left and right, until I was actually selling the things. This time, I haven't seen a single one all game, and my run is suffering because of it.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Brought the Antiquarian out on a short level 1 Warrens mission.

First corridor combat against three of those worms with teeth: 1000 gold rare antique.

Curio room fight: 275 gold minor antique. Searched the Makeshift Dining table afterwards: another 275 gold minor antique.

Total of 1550 bonus gold from a level 1 short mission.

Not bad. Suspect that she might become more of a liability at higher level missions though. Her basic attack is decent with good reach, and she has a minor blight attack, but has neither the combat utility of a healer/support class nor the brute damage of a dps. More SCIENCE is required.

[Destro_Yersul]

I've tried the Antiquarian out, and I find her to be a little bit lacking in terms of combat abiltiy. On low level missions, though, she's great for picking up extra cash.

In other news, I took a Leper with Eldritch Hater into the Cove to fight the Siren Boss mk2. Turns out when you do that, he hits like two trucks, instead of just one. He critted for 57 damage twice. I won that battle without much trouble at all. The Houndmaster proved invaluable as well, since his Mark reduces the Target's prot. This big crabs aren't so scary when they're taking standard damage.