Dragonborn Breath Weapon

[pwykersotz]

I'm heavily considering modifying the Dragonborn breath weapon to be at-will at my table, just like any cantrip. I realize though that this would make it the best damage cantrip by far. Area effect, high damage, etc. I'm considering modifying it to bring it in line, but I'm torn about how to go about it. Maybe you guys have some ideas. Here's a few of mine so far.


Do nothing, a powerful cantrip is fine for this race. It's still not even as good as Burning Hands.
Reduce the damage by 1d6 at all stages.
Modify it to be single target only at a 30ft range and keep everything else the same.
Have it recharge on a d6 roll of 5-6, just like any dragon.


Thoughts?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'm heavily considering modifying the Dragonborn breath weapon to be at-will at my table, just like any cantrip. I realize though that this would make it the best damage cantrip by far. Area effect, high damage, etc. I'm considering modifying it to bring it in line, but I'm torn about how to go about it. Maybe you guys have some ideas. Here's a few of mine so far.


Do nothing, a powerful cantrip is fine for this race. It's still not even as good as Burning Hands.
Reduce the damage by 1d6 at all stages.
Modify it to be single target only at a 30ft range and keep everything else the same.
Have it recharge on a d6 roll of 5-6, just like any dragon.


Thoughts?

One or two sounds like the best and the easiest of options.

[Flashy]

Do nothing, a powerful cantrip is fine for this race. It's still not even as good as Burning Hands.

That's a bit much for me. Would you grant a 5th level wizard at will Burning Hands? If yes, then option 1 is probably fine. Option 4 is the one I like the best though, since it makes using the ability a choice rather than a certainty.

[MaxWilson]

I'm heavily considering modifying the Dragonborn breath weapon to be at-will at my table, just like any cantrip. I realize though that this would make it the best damage cantrip by far. Area effect, high damage, etc. I'm considering modifying it to bring it in line, but I'm torn about how to go about it. Maybe you guys have some ideas. Here's a few of mine so far.


Do nothing, a powerful cantrip is fine for this race. It's still not even as good as Burning Hands.
Reduce the damage by 1d6 at all stages.
Modify it to be single target only at a 30ft range and keep everything else the same.
Have it recharge on a d6 roll of 5-6, just like any dragon.


Thoughts?

The worst thing about the dragonborn breath weapon is its action economy, which makes it generally worse than attacking with your weapon. (I'm assuming here that you're a melee fighter type or at least a fighter type wannabe, because if you're not, you should be running away instead of breathing on someone.) If it were a bonus action, it would be just fine.

[pwykersotz]

The worst thing about the dragonborn breath weapon is its action economy, which makes it generally worse than attacking with your weapon. (I'm assuming here that you're a melee fighter type or at least a fighter type wannabe, because if you're not, you should be running away instead of breathing on someone.) If it were a bonus action, it would be just fine.

Hmm...I like that. Quite a lot.

[RazDelacroix]

For one of my players, after a bit of story/rp/questing his dragonborn was given a cantrip related to his breath weapon with an attack/save dependent on Constitution. Specifically poison spray in his case. So far it has not been an overwhelming advantage while remaining serviceable.

[Battlebooze]

We've been playing with option 4, recharge on a 5-6, and using the breath as a bonus action.

So far it seems fine. The war cleric Dragonborn is powerful, but not because of his breath weapon.

[JakOfAllTirades]

The worst thing about the dragonborn breath weapon is its action economy, which makes it generally worse than attacking with your weapon. (I'm assuming here that you're a melee fighter type or at least a fighter type wannabe, because if you're not, you should be running away instead of breathing on someone.) If it were a bonus action, it would be just fine.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Making it a bonus action would bring it more or less up to par (I think?) with the 4E version of the Dragonborn breath weapon, which was just about right, IMHO. This would bring back the excellent combination: [Breath attack; Move in; Melee weapon attack] which made Dragonborn warriors so much fun to play.

(Assuming 4E was any fun at all... it was for me. :smallbiggrin:)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

This is exactly what I was thinking. Making it a bonus action would bring it more or less up to par (I think?) with the 4E version of the Dragonborn breath weapon, which was just about right, IMHO. This would bring back the excellent combination: [Breath attack; Move in; Melee weapon attack] which made Dragonborn warriors so much fun to play.

(Assuming 4E was any fun at all... it was for me. :smallbiggrin:)

If people didn't have fun will all the Dragonborn breath options... Then I'm guessing D&D isn't their thing. Holy hell was that awesome. I really really hope we see breath options in 5e!

:smalltongue:

[Hudsonian]

Make it a bonus action, but after the first use it requires an action to recharge to full strength, otherwise reduced by half.

Still pretty powerful in my opinion, leaves all of the roleplay aspects (because "actions" outside of combat are pretty easy to come by), and yet keeps it from being the main damage tool for the character. If the breath weapon was at will and full strength I would be kiting a Bronze Dragonborn monk ALL DAY! A little manuevering to get several people in a line and BOOM! (or I guess ZAP would be more appropriate.)

[Gnomes2169]

Oh hey, this problem. I remember having this problem. Still do. However, as much as it's shameless advertising for things that I have created, I did make a potential solution to it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?450862-Dragonborn-quot-tweaks-quot-feats). Yes, I'll admit that I was sort of inspired by the 4e dragonborn here... but that's neither here nor there at the moment.

The reason why I'm not just chiming in on the bonus action train is that the base of 2d6 as a bonus action is sort of strong, and it leaves the scaling feeling a bit wonky (+1d6 at each bump instead of +2d6, which is what it should be if it's an action cost cantrip scaling wise). So making it a bonus action requires a few different things to come into effect, like scaling it down to a 1d6 at the base (max 4d6 at level 17), and just standardizing the rate at which it scales (levels 5, 11 and 17 instead of 6, 11 and 15... though that's more just my personal preferences for keeping things neat and tidy coming into effect there). Alternately, leaving it as an action and giving it +2d6 per bump (max 8d6 at level 17) makes it a more worth-while option to melee types in the middle of a swarm and most spell casters.

And for the love of all that is holy, change the recharge time to something other than a short rest. Because it just feels more dragony to use one of the two things that you get from the race (and the only thing you are certain to be able to use in almost every battle) more commonly. I suggest just having it recharge when initiative is rolled, since that gives your players a 1/ encounter ability that is meant to carve out a niche or flavor for their character's race.

[DracoKnight]

I've gotta say, between the fluff in the PHB and SCAG, and the fact that I can BE (kind of) a DRAGON from level 1, Dragonborn are probably my favorite race in all of 5e. That includes the things I've homebrewed, the EEPC, and the SCAG. Now that said, when you run the numbers, they are in fact the weakest race in 5e. The best fix I have seen in practice is:

1st level: 2d6, action, recharge 5-6.
6th level: 3d6, bonus action 5-6
11th level: 4d6, bonus action, recharge 5-6
17th level: 5d6, bonus action, recharge 4-6
20th level: 5d8, bonus action, recharge 3-6

For comparison, before houseruling:

High Elf*: all base elf features
+2 to a useful stat (DEX)
+1 to a generally dumped stat (INT)
+ a wizard cantrip which scales similarly to the breath weapon, and is useable every round, and uses their INT bump.

Dragonborn: no subraces
+2 to a moderately useful stat (useless for DEX builds, great for Great-Weapon builds)
+1 to a useful stat (CHA is amazing)
+ damage resistance
+ a breath weapon that initially scales better than cantrips, but uses CON, not a racially increased stat - ONCE PER SHORT REST.

After Houseruling, there is no reason for a Dragonborn to NOT use their breath weapon. Which is why it's there, right? To get used.


TL;DR, my apologies for ranting, I love the Dragonborn, and WotC didn't do them justice, IMO.

*High-Elf is the most optimized race for what is considered one of the best classes in the game (wizard), and Dragonborn want to be that, but for Paladin (which is also commonly considered one of the best classes in the game).

[BladeWing81]

The Breath Weapon is improved when achieving lvl 6 (3d6) ,lvl 11 (4d6) and lvl 16 (5d6). Why not just add additional charges when adding a dice? lvl 1-5 (2d6) 1 Charge, lvl 6 (3d6) 2 Charges, lvl 11 (4d6) 3 Charges and lvl 16 (5d6) 4 Charges. it wont be OP, and you get a few more uses as you level up.

[Corran]

Make it a bonus action, and let it recharge on a 5 or a 6. That will let the player use it a bit more often while protecting against spamming a bonus action breath attack (which would be a bit problematic from what I can vaguely think). Plus rolling each round to see if his breath recharges will be fun and will provide a pleasnat suspens.

[Shining Wrath]

I vote for "recharge on 5 or 6", as it ought to work more or less like a dragon's breath weapon.

Making it a bonus action seems OP given that everyone has the ability to mix actions and motion - strike down the guy in front of you, step into his place, fire a line of lightning down the row of mooks ....

[Hudsonian]

row of mooks ....

I want your DM...

With mine, if you can get more than two enemies in an area and not hit party members you are lucky. (Or has a long range)

[DanyBallon]

If anything, give Dragonborn breath weapon a recharge of 5-6 instead of once per rest and it should be fine. Allowing it as a bonus action is way too powerful and could lead to abuse. And the damage scaling is close to a cantrip, but stronger at low level.

[Hudsonian]

I really am curious what people think of the Action to recharge mechanic I mentioned earlier, I have relatively little play experience and I'm curious what the playground thinks about it.

[DanyBallon]

I really am curious what people think of the Action to recharge mechanic I mentioned earlier, I have relatively little play experience and I'm curious what the playground thinks about it.

I still wouldn't allow it. Even with half damage I feel it's too powerful. There ain't much that allow you to do pretty good damage to more than one target as a bonus action.

The only way I might consider a breath weapon as a bonus action, would be if is stay once per rest. It will be strong for a bonus action, but would be a very limited ressource

[joaber]

I would go for:

- bonus action
- recharge on short rest
- change the dice for d4

optional feat:

recharge at 5 or 6
dice is a d6

[Hudsonian]

Another question: What about giving more uses per S.R. as the character levels?
3d6 1/sr +additional uses instead of additional damage at indicated levels? given it's usually lackluster DC I feel like it wouldn't be that overpowered.

Edit: Feat to allow as BA, and for opportunity attacks.

[MaxWilson]

I'd just change it to bonus action and have done. If you want recharge on 5-6 I'll give you a racial feat option, but by default it's going to be something flavorful, free, and somewhat useful, but not a major damage source.

Changing it to 5-6 recharge makes it a fairly reliable damage source, as good in aggregate as a totem barb's Frenzy, so it will cost you a feat. For example, you could have a Paladin who casts Shield of Faith and Dodges each round while tanking, and breathing acid each time the acid recharges. That shouldn't be free.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

At-Will with a bonus action you run up against the following...

1d4 + Str (polearm master): 5.5 (+3 mod) to 7.5 (+5 Mod) average damage before class features get involved (fighting style, rage, advantage, savage attack, etc)

1d6 + Dex (crossbow expert): 6.5 (+3 Mod) to 8.5 (+5 Mod) average damage before class feature features get involved (fighting style, rage, advantage, savage attack, sneak attack)

1d4, 1d6, or 1d8 (Two Weapon Fighting core rule): 2.5, 3.5, or 4.5 average damage before class features get involved (fighting style, Rogue + Another chance to Sneak Attack, rage, etc..)

2d6 as a bonus action, at will, would give you 7 average damage.
4d6 as a bonus action, at will, would give you 14 average damage.

This damage doesn't get to stack with other features, maybe the elemental feat or the Sorcery Points if you have a nice DM.

I would say...

At-Will
Bonus Action: 2d6 (average 7) damage
DC = Based on highest ability score of Strength, Constitution, or Charisma. (8 + Mod + Prof)
Save: Dexterity or Constitution Saving Throw
Shapeable (Action): Due to your special dragon born physiology you may shape your breath weapon. You may make it a 15' Cone, 30' Line, or Single Target with a range of 30'.

2d6 is better than a cantrip, but those cantrips typically will have riders on them (firebolt's has a rider of setting things on fire, 120' range, and can crit). You can shape your breath weapon as an action though most people won't want to do that while IN battle, but it is possible.

Eventually as your other bonus actions get that much better (from class features) you will want to boost this one's damage a bit. Like w/ advantage, 1d4 + 5 + 4 + crit damage makes for a great bonus action on a barbarian. You typically won't want to use it on 7 damage, though yes it is in an AoE but that isn't very party friendly and you don't always get more than one creature in an AoE.


With this as a bonus action you could cast a cantrip + use dragon breath as Dragon Breath isn't a spell.

[Hudsonian]

With this as a bonus action you could cast a cantrip + use dragon breath as Dragon Breath isn't a spell.

Even if it was a spell, you could still do it. (cast a bonus action spell and you can still cast a cantrip, just not another spell... PHB says it.)

About the breath weapon, one of the best advantages of it is that it is guaranteed damage. (save for 1/2)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Even if it was a spell, you could still do it. (cast a bonus action spell and you can still cast a cantrip, just not another spell... PHB says it.)

About the breath weapon, one of the best advantages of it is that it is guaranteed damage. (save for 1/2)

What I meant was that, normally it is an action to cast Dragon Breath, therefore you can't cast it and a cantrip as cantrips are typically Actions. So without Quicken Spell or a feature that gives you +Mod to specific damage, you have a way to be relevant (at least in low levels) in terms of damage.

[pwykersotz]

Great feedback, guys! I appreciate it. I've got a lot of thinking before I settle on a method, but you've all torn apart and reassembled the issue quite nicely. I'm still open to other ideas that come in, I just wanted to say thank you. :smallsmile:

[Shining Wrath]

I want your DM...

With mine, if you can get more than two enemies in an area and not hit party members you are lucky. (Or has a long range)

I *am* the DM, and not every foe is a tactician. I do it that people who are trained in combat (martial weapon proficiency) tend to be "smart" about tactics, because even if they have INT=10, 9 of those 10 points are devoted to being good in combat. A wizard, OTOH, can plan if he thinks about it because he's that smart.

But an evil bard BBEG? There's no particular reason why he'll realize ahead of time that his mooks will be in a straight line if they are blocking the path from the door to him. Especially if he hasn't known the party is coming.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I *am* the DM, and not every foe is a tactician. I do it that people who are trained in combat (martial weapon proficiency) tend to be "smart" about tactics, because even if they have INT=10, 9 of those 10 points are devoted to being good in combat. A wizard, OTOH, can plan if he thinks about it because he's that smart.

But an evil bard BBEG? There's no particular reason why he'll realize ahead of time that his mooks will be in a straight line if they are blocking the path from the door to him. Especially if he hasn't known the party is coming.

How does your BBEG not know the party is coming? He is a BBEG Bard, does he really not expect a band of adventurers to show up when he least expects it in order to stop him?

[Corran]

How does your BBEG not know the party is coming? He is a BBEG Bard, does he really not expect a band of adventurers to show up when he least expects it in order to stop him?
He knows, but the rules of good storytelling dictate that he must act as if being surprised, thus suffering all the consequences of this situation. Because nothing, not even his own life or evil scheme, can stand in the way of a good story.

[Shining Wrath]

He knows, but the rules of good storytelling dictate that he must act as if being surprised, thus suffering all the consequences of this situation. Because nothing, not even his own life or evil scheme, can stand in the way of a good story.

Indeed. Also, as a bard he has to compose a song about how he feels about facing the adventurers, which delays actual preparations.

[Mr.Moron]

I see some folks talking about making it a bonus action. What about instead of a bonus action it was "In place of 1 attack when you take the attack action...".

The Breath Weapon is probably an upgrade over a single attack in most cases, even if it isn't an upgrade over making both your attacks as a martial or all your attacks as a fighter. This keeps the power level exactly the same as it is by default until Extra Attack comes into play, at which point it's a smaller upgrade over a bonus action while still allowing it to live along side attacks. You could still breath and make a smite attack as a paladin, but breathing would still be an action trade off.

[DracoKnight]

I see some folks talking about making it a bonus action. What about instead of a bonus action it was "In place of 1 attack when you take the attack action...".

The Breath Weapon is probably an upgrade over a single attack in most cases, even if it isn't an upgrade over making both your attacks as a martial or all your attacks as a fighter. This keeps the power level exactly the same as it is by default until Extra Attack comes into play, at which point it's a smaller upgrade over a bonus action while still allowing it to live along side attacks. You could still breath and make a smite attack as a paladin, but breathing would still be an action trade off.

Okay... honestly, I sometimes have a hard time agreeing with what you say - even if I don't voice it. BUT I think that this is spot on. If you combine this with a recharge 5-6 I think that this would fix the dragonborn. :smallbiggrin:

[GandalfTheWhite]

I see some folks talking about making it a bonus action. What about instead of a bonus action it was "In place of 1 attack when you take the attack action...".

The Breath Weapon is probably an upgrade over a single attack in most cases, even if it isn't an upgrade over making both your attacks as a martial or all your attacks as a fighter. This keeps the power level exactly the same as it is by default until Extra Attack comes into play, at which point it's a smaller upgrade over a bonus action while still allowing it to live along side attacks. You could still breath and make a smite attack as a paladin, but breathing would still be an action trade off.


I think that this is spot on. If you combine this with a recharge 5-6 I think that this would fix the dragonborn. :smallbiggrin:

I ran the numbers, and this fixes the Dragonborn. With this simple change (part of the Attack action, recharge 5-6) it brings the race on par with the Elf, the Dwarf, and the Halfling. Can you super-optimize? Yes, but that's true of any race. This works. Well done.

[Ralanr]

I ran the numbers, and this fixes the Dragonborn. With this simple change (part of the Attack action, recharge 5-6) it brings the race on par with the Elf, the Dwarf, and the Halfling. Can you super-optimize? Yes, but that's true of any race. This works. Well done.

Wish my DM did this. Though race things never really come up unless we need to see in the dark or it's a story point. So being a dragonborn is more of a fluff thing for me. Still love dragonborn.

[DracoKnight]

Wish my DM did this. Though race things never really come up unless we need to see in the dark or it's a story point. So being a dragonborn is more of a fluff thing for me. Still love dragonborn.

Dragonborn are my absolute favorite in 5e, whether or not the DM is willing to fix them, I'm probably playing one. :smallbiggrin:

[pwykersotz]

I ran the numbers, and this fixes the Dragonborn. With this simple change (part of the Attack action, recharge 5-6) it brings the race on par with the Elf, the Dwarf, and the Halfling. Can you super-optimize? Yes, but that's true of any race. This works. Well done.

Would you mind posting the numbers you ran? Is be very interested.

[GandalfTheWhite]

Would you mind posting the numbers you ran? Is be very interested.

I have a 15 point system for calculating racial features, based on how the features come into play in actual gameplay.

ASI 2 = 2 points
ASI 1 = 1 point
Darkvision = 1 point
Racial Spellcasting (cantrip/1st-level/2nd-level) = 4 points
Skills = 1.5 points per skill
Cantrips = 2 points
Feat Equivalents (armor and weapon training) = 2 points per weapon group/ armor level
Feat = 4 points
Flight = 4 points + 1 point for every 10 feet over 30
Unarmed Strikes = 1 point
Damage Reduction = 3 points
Damage Resistance = 2 points
Ribbon Abilities (Trance, Living Construct) = .5 points
Speed Boost = 1 point for every 5 feet
Advantage on saving throws = 1.5 point per save
Status Immunity (sleep, charm, frightened, etc.) = 2 points per effect.
Languages (beyond Common and Standard Racial) = .5 points per additional language
Tools = 1 point per tool proficiency
Sunlight Sensitivity = -3 points
RAW Breath Weapon = 2 point
Fixed Breath Weapon (part of the attack action, recharge 5-6) = 7 points
Superior Darkvision = 2 points

Elf
ASI = 2
Darkvision = 1
Perception = 1.5
Fey Ancestry = 3.5 (adv. v. charm/immune to magical sleep)
Trance = .5

TOTAL WITHOUT SUBRACE: 8.5

High Elf
ASI = 1
Elf Weapon Training = 2
Cantrip = 2
Extra Language = .5

HIGH ELF TOTAL: 14

Wood Elf
ASI = 1
Elf Weapon Training = 2
Ribbon (Mask of the Wild) = .5
Fleet of Foot = 1

WOOD ELF TOTAL: 13

Drow
ASI = 1
Drow Weapon Training = 2
Superior Darkvision = 2
Sunlight Sensitivity = -3
Drow Magic = 4 points

DROW TOTAL = 14.5

RAW Dragonborn
ASI = 3
Breath Weapon = 2
Damage Resistance = 2 points

RAW DRAGONBORN TOTAL = 7 points

Fixed Dragonborn
ASI = 3
Breath Weapon = 7
Damage Resistance = 2

FIXED DRAGONBORN TOTAL = 12

Okay, so it is actually a little bit behind the wood elf, but it's total is no longer the total of the BASE elf race without the subraces. I must've run the numbers incorrectly the first time, since I was still waking up :smalltongue:

I put such a huge point cost on the new breath weapon, because of how useful it is now. It's now part of your Attack action, so it's a DPR boost, instead of alternative DPR, and it's save for half in AoE on a recharge. That's why it jumped by 5 points, and is ranked higher than flight.

[SterlingWren]

Saying this as Gandalf's IRL DM: his numbers are usually right.

[DanyBallon]

I have a 15 point system for calculating racial features, based on how the features come into play in actual gameplay.

ASI 2 = 2 points
ASI 1 = 1 point
Darkvision = 1 point
Racial Spellcasting (cantrip/1st-level/2nd-level) = 4 points
Skills = 1.5 points per skill
Cantrips = 2 points
Feat Equivalents (armor and weapon training) = 2 points per weapon group/ armor level
Feat = 4 points
Flight = 4 points + 1 point for every 10 feet over 30
Unarmed Strikes = 1 point
Damage Reduction = 3 points
Damage Resistance = 2 points
Ribbon Abilities (Trance, Living Construct) = .5 points
Speed Boost = 1 point for every 5 feet
Advantage on saving throws = 1.5 point per save
Status Immunity (sleep, charm, frightened, etc.) = 2 points per effect.
Languages (beyond Common and Standard Racial) = .5 points per additional language
Tools = 1 point per tool proficiency
Sunlight Sensitivity = -3 points
RAW Breath Weapon = 2 point
Fixed Breath Weapon (part of the attack action, recharge 5-6) = 7 points
Superior Darkvision = 2 points

Elf
ASI = 2
Darkvision = 1
Perception = 1.5
Fey Ancestry = 3.5 (adv. v. charm/immune to magical sleep)
Trance = .5

TOTAL WITHOUT SUBRACE: 8.5

High Elf
ASI = 1
Elf Weapon Training = 2
Cantrip = 2
Extra Language = .5

HIGH ELF TOTAL: 14

Wood Elf
ASI = 1
Elf Weapon Training = 2
Ribbon (Mask of the Wild) = .5
Fleet of Foot = 1

WOOD ELF TOTAL: 13

Drow
ASI = 1
Drow Weapon Training = 2
Superior Darkvision = 2
Sunlight Sensitivity = -3
Drow Magic = 4 points

DROW TOTAL = 14.5

RAW Dragonborn
ASI = 3
Breath Weapon = 2
Damage Resistance = 2 points

RAW DRAGONBORN TOTAL = 7 points

Fixed Dragonborn
ASI = 3
Breath Weapon = 7
Damage Resistance = 2

FIXED DRAGONBORN TOTAL = 12

Okay, so it is actually a little bit behind the wood elf, but it's total is no longer the total of the BASE elf race without the subraces. I must've run the numbers incorrectly the first time, since I was still waking up :smalltongue:

I put such a huge point cost on the new breath weapon, because of how useful it is now. It's now part of your Attack action, so it's a DPR boost, instead of alternative DPR, and it's save for half in AoE on a recharge. That's why it jumped by 5 points, and is ranked higher than flight.

I'm not saying that what you've done is not pertinent, but it need to be said that it's based on someone's opinion of the racial abilities. If someone else that find the RAW breath weapon too powerful, it could have listed it at 7 like you did for the fixed version, and the numbers would have proved that Dragonborn are strong enough as they are now.

Unless WotC release an official racial ability chart value, it will always be subjective.

[GandalfTheWhite]

I'm not saying that what you've done is not pertinent, but it need to be said that it's based on someone's opinion of the racial abilities. If someone else that find the RAW breath weapon too powerful, it could have listed it at 7 like you did for the fixed version, and the numbers would have proved that Dragonborn are strong enough as they are now.

Unless WotC release an official racial ability chart value, it will always be subjective.

You're exactly right, everything is from my opinion. However, at this point, I have played every race across all 20 levels. My 7 point allocation for the Fixed Breath Weapon is only an estimate, but the rest of my point system is based on how things play in practice. Is it subjective, yes, but it's subjectivity backed up by experience.

[JumboWheat01]

I rather like someone's idea of making it recharge on an initiative roll. There are examples (usually capstones,) in the PHB about class abilities recharging when they have none on an initiative roll, so it's not that out there.

[DracoKnight]

I rather like someone's idea of making it recharge on an initiative roll. There are examples (usually capstones,) in the PHB about class abilities recharging when they have none on an initiative roll, so it's not that out there.

The recharge isn't on an initiative roll. "Recharge 5-6" means that if you've used your breath weapon, then at the start of your turn, you roll a d6. On a 5-6, you have your breath weapon back.

[bid]

Have it recharge on a d6 roll of 5-6, just like any dragon.
Nobody said Con per short rest?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Nobody said Con per short rest?

No need to do that.

Make it balanced at-will and be done with it.

But then against, I hate racial features that are 1/Long Rest or whatever. As someone once said, I want my dwarf actively being a dwarf.

I don't want to be dwarfing 1/day or whatever.

[DracoKnight]

But then against, I hate racial features that are 1/Long Rest or whatever. As someone once said, I want my dwarf actively being a dwarf.

I don't want to be dwarfing 1/day or whatever.

This. Just this.

[GandalfTheWhite]

No need to do that.

Make it balanced at-will and be done with it.

But then against, I hate racial features that are 1/Long Rest or whatever. As someone once said, I want my dwarf actively being a dwarf.

I don't want to be dwarfing 1/day or whatever.

Right. If I'm playing a dragonborn, I don't want to feel like a human who occasionally can use a breath weapon like a dragon; instead I want to fee like one of the children of Io, a brother to the dragons! (admittedly, less powerful than the dragons...but still)

[Ralanr]

Right. If I'm playing a dragonborn, I don't want to feel like a human who occasionally can use a breath weapon like a dragon; instead I want to fee like one of the children of Io, a brother to the dragons! (admittedly, less powerful than the dragons...but still)

Not even the runt of dragons. That belongs to kobolds. Dragonborn are the odd ones in between kobolds and dragons.

[DracoKnight]

Not even the runt of dragons. That belongs to kobolds. Dragonborn are the odd ones in between kobolds and dragons.

Yes. Kobolds are also the slaves of dragons. Dragonborn aren't, they're usually allies, or enemies.

Personally I like the Dragonborn, even though they're the odd children of Io.

[Ralanr]

Yes. Kobolds are also the slaves of dragons. Dragonborn aren't, they're usually allies, or enemies.

Personally I like the Dragonborn, even though they're the odd children of Io.

Same. Though maybe it's because it speaks to my inner child of being a "dragon man".

Or maybe I don't want to play a race that has humanlike facial features.

[DracoKnight]

it speaks to my inner child of being a "dragon man".

Same! But I also like they're fluff involving their honor codes, and their clan systems, and all the other 5e fluff between the PHB and the SCAG. Except for their scales! In ever game I run they will always have different colored scales! None of this muddy brown sh*t :smalltongue:

[Ralanr]

Same! But I also like they're fluff involving their honor codes, and their clan systems, and all the other 5e fluff between the PHB and the SCAG. Except for their scales! In ever game I run they will always have different colored scales! None of this muddy brown sh*t :smalltongue:

I base them off of their resistance color. Dragonborn clans when I play are mainly single colored.

[JumboWheat01]

Same! But I also like they're fluff involving their honor codes, and their clan systems, and all the other 5e fluff between the PHB and the SCAG. Except for their scales! In ever game I run they will always have different colored scales! None of this muddy brown sh*t :smalltongue:

If I remember my 4e PHB right, Dragonborn "back in the day," had different color scales based on their heritage, and they were a bit "purist" about maintaining the color, so only those of the same color mated. Apparently that went to the wayside after a while, probably for some survivability reason, so now they've gotten all muddled.

Not that I have a problem with Dragonborn being colorful in games. Let one with a strong Silver Dragon heritage be silver in color, or one with a Black Dragon heritage be viewable for all to see, even if s/he isn't as evil as the scales may say.

[DracoKnight]

I base them off of their resistance color. Dragonborn clans when I play are mainly single colored.

That's exactly how I have them in my world.

[Ralanr]

That's exactly howI have them in my world.

Nice. I think I've told you this before, but I also try and give the color clans a relatable trait towards the dragons. So far all I really liked was that white dragonborn were more savage (which helped them survive in their environment) and green dragonborn were usually more cunning.

Though racial stereotypes might not have been the way to go.

[DracoKnight]

Nice. I think I've told you this before, but I also try and give the color clans a relatable trait towards the dragons. So far all I really liked was that white dragonborn were more savage (which helped them survive in their environment) and green dragonborn were usually more cunning.

I think that you have, but it's great fluff. :smallbiggrin:


Though racial stereotypes might not have been the way to go.

That's usually the case... :smallwink:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Nice. I think I've told you this before, but I also try and give the color clans a relatable trait towards the dragons. So far all I really liked was that white dragonborn were more savage (which helped them survive in their environment) and green dragonborn were usually more cunning.

Though racial stereotypes might not have been the way to go.

Dude, this is D&D, a lot of the core stuff is based around racial stereotypes.

Just look at the Racial Ability Score system. :smalltongue:

[CantigThimble]

Dude, this is D&D, a lot of the core stuff is based around racial stereotypes.

Just look at the Racial Ability Score system. :smalltongue:

Well, personality is different from physical or mental capabilities. Saying most halflings are very dexterous and saying most halflings are greedy thieves are two different things.

But then again if we really want to get into the nitty gritty of racism in a fantastic setting we should just be playing shadowrun.

[Ralanr]

Dude, this is D&D, a lot of the core stuff is based around racial stereotypes.

Just look at the Racial Ability Score system. :smalltongue:


Well, personality is different from physical or mental capabilities. Saying most halflings are very dexterous and saying most halflings are greedy thieves are two different things.

This was pretty much the problem I ran into. I was basing it too much on how I viewed the separate clans and how their environment effected them, which I felt was the wrong way of making them unique from each other.

That and I didn't know how to convey the other dragons without getting ridiculous.

[DracoKnight]

This was pretty much the problem I ran into. I was basing it too much on how I viewed the separate clans and how their environment effected them, which I felt was the wrong way of making them unique from each other.

That and I didn't know how to convey the other dragons without getting ridiculous.

Well yes. With a race as dignified as the dragonborn, it is best to avoid dipping into the realm of ridicule.