bad at math

[zylodrizzt]

I may be starting a campaign with my wife. She wants to take more intrest in the things I enjoy since I've done the same for her. She is worried about her lack of math skills. What might be the things I or dm or she can do to make this a non issue or her to have maximum fun or alleviate her fears? She hasn't played before. What advice does the female gamers out there have for her (separate from the math issue I'm not suggesting women are bad at math in any context)?

[Ninja_Prawn]

As long as she's not planning to optimise for DPR or argue with people on the Internet, I can't see why she'd need much in the way of maths. Quick mental arithmetic is impressive (c.f. Chris Perkins) but unnecessary and can be completely obviated through electronic dice rollers. Maybe bring a calculator to add big XP numbers?

Knowing when to round up or down is useful - but that's a rules issue, not a maths one.

As for the 'gaming while female' question, I'd take the opportunity to remind her that she's not obliged to do anything, and if she's not having fun, she should say so. Obviously the same goes for everyone, but society teaches women not to speak up so they might be less likely to do so.

[Sir cryosin]

If your playing 5e there is not a lot of numbers to keep track of. It just all simple adding or subtracting. There's not a lot of numbers floating around or you gotta calculate for a lot of different numbers in 5e. Like there was in previous editions. In from the role playing aspect it really don't matter a person's a person it don't matter if male or female. Now I am a guy but we do have a female at our table. She in joys come and play every week.

[Hudsonian]

I like to write down a table for my attack d20 rolls that are most common... And I'm an engineer (why do people assume that engineers are good at arithmetic? I haven't had addition problems since junior high.)

e.g. My cleric does a lot of Spiritual Weapon attacks/spell attacks so the table is:

1:FAIL
2:Still Fail
3: 10
4: 11
5: 12
etc.

Then I have another table that is similar. I usually make sure that 5-17 are on the list, because typically if you have to do the math on 18 or 19 you should probably just run.

As for the other issue... Have you thought about having your character be female? It might break the mental connection between gender and gaming if that is something that is going through her head.

But that IS an IF. Before you do any gymnastic yoga making sure that she is comfortable, ask her if you need to do anything. She may be just fine. I have gotten in trouble in the past by assuming that my wife was worried about something and then getting frustrated with her when I found out that all along she was fine and I was working very hard for NO REASON.

[Shining Wrath]

Work out her character sheet with her in advance: "When you attack with your sword, you roll D20 and add 3, but when you use your crossbow, you add 5". Explain why, of course, but that will make combat "roll one die and add one number" most of the time. Same for damage - roll one die and add this #. It will reduce pressure.

Reassure her that it's fine if it takes her a little while. Ask her how she feels about other people doing math for her - at my table when we were playing 3.5 and the Scout was rolling handfuls of D6, everyone expected me to add them up because I come with a built-in wetware calculator. But some people don't like that so talk to her before someone starts doing it.

Congratulations on gaming with your wife, it should be fun.

[Hudsonian]

Ask her how she feels about other people doing math for her

Yeah, I almost slept on the couch the first time my wife an I played at the same table (she grew up with D&D, and I just got started). She did NOT like me doing her math.

[gullveig]

I played once or twice with my wife... She is not a gamer and so she don't liked the metagaming, minmaxing and abuse of game terms other players used.

But she liked to hear a story about her character (she didn't talked too much, but liked to hear what was going on). She also liked to roll dice to kill things and hoard large amounts of gold and stuff.

So this is my advice... keep it simple and interesting.

[Oramac]

So this is my advice... keep it simple and interesting.

QFT.

As others have said, work out her character sheet with her before the game so she can ask questions. And remember, there's no such thing as a stupid question!

As for the math, I play with people ranging from ~20 up to 50+ years old. At any given time, every single one of them (including myself!) has counted on their fingers, whether they're distracted, unsure, or just lazy, it happens. There's no shame is your wife has to either.

[PoeticDwarf]

I played once or twice with my wife... She is not a gamer and so she don't liked the metagaming, minmaxing and abuse of game terms other players used.

But she liked to hear a story about her character (she didn't talked too much, but liked to hear what was going on). She also liked to roll dice to kill things and hoard large amounts of gold and stuff.

So this is my advice... keep it simple and interesting.

This is a bit too much "women want simple and interesting ideas". I think you don't mean it that way, but it just doesn't sound right

[gfishfunk]

Most of the math comes in at character creation, but if they are not involved in character creation, it can be a bit intimidating. It LOOKS like a lot of numbers.

Whenever (guy or gal) I help someone into D&D that does not want to worry about the math, I create the character for that person through an interview process. I ask the abstract questions:

"What do you want this character to be good at doing?" If they provide a combat choice, I follow up asking about what they want outside (and vice versa).

"What kind of species / race / appearance do you want?"

Etc. Then, I do the math on the sheet and use a highlighter to highlight proficiency skills, attack and damage stuff, initiative, and AC. And then I walk through and explain how those things will come up.

It takes the math out of their hands while still giving them ownership of the character concept.

[gullveig]

@EnderDwarf
No, no... The advice is not that women like simple things.
The advice is that it is better to keep things simple to first time players be it man or woman and progress in complexity as they play more games.

[darkrose50]

Use math manipulatives for hit points. A pile of math manipulatives on her character sheet could be current hit points, and off the character sheet it would be current damage.

You could buy little wooden hearts at a craft store, and paint them red. Some can be 1's, some 5's and some 10's (by size or by inscribing on them with a black marker). You may be able to raid chits from board-games, if you have that kind of board game.

Make a chart numbered 1 to 20 with what dice roll hits what AC for each main type of attack she has (one for STR, one for DEX for example . . . perhaps more if she is an archery Fighter or something). We used to do this when playing in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons with a to hit AC 0 (THAC0) number.

Reassure her that D&D 5e is not 3.0 / 3.5 / Pathfinder math.

[Hudsonian]

*SNIP*

I think this is THE most complicated answer I've seen.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I think this is THE most complicated answer I've seen.

Yeah, it'd be much easier to just write a smartphone app to handle it all.

[darkrose50]

I think this is THE most complicated answer I've seen.

The description may be, but the idea is simple.

They teach math using manipulatives like little plastic bears or cubes.

Many complicated and modern board-games use manipulatives as well.

Check out the second (third?) picture:
http://www.surlycurmudgeon.com/blog/?id=2216

A chart is just the math done in advance.

[RickAllison]

Excellent advice all around. The ForgedAnvil character creator is a free Excel spreadsheet that is great for talking through the player on everything. It is fantastic for new players, keeps everything nice and concise, and lets you fill out the character while letting the software do the crunch in response to your changes. I love using it because I can change different aspects on the fly (class levels, feats, species, etc.) and the software then updates the rest of the character.

[MaxWilson]

Fundamentally, D&D is not about math, it's about choices and consequences.

The only reason D&D uses dice at all is to create additional uncertainty about the consequences.

The only reason D&D uses math with its dice is to create predictable patterns in the uncertainty so players can choose their actions accordingly.

Someone who isn't interested in doing math can simply accept that there is uncertainty, roll dice when the DM tells them to, and otherwise just roll with the punches. Sometimes your Hypnotic Pattern will disable all the orcs, sometimes it won't.

It's no different from the way some people, in real life, compute the optimal car insurance to buy, by comparing various vendors and plans, whereas others just buy GEICO because it's pretty good. You can also start out just buying GEICO, and then later on get curious and start comparing the plans in detail looking for a real steal. Do whatever interests you.

[Socratov]

Before we go about our way to simplify and potentially take the fun out of some and/or certain dnd aspects, will we please take a moment to identify the person in question's deficiency in math? Math has so many aspects and different techniques that it would be nigh impossible to be bad at all of them. simple addition, subtraction and recognising maximal and minimal values should be simple enough for anyone. The more complex avenues of math only come to call when trying to optimise damage or potential for certain customisation options.

If you keep it simple and more based on concept/story and not about optimisation of numbers I'm sure she will manage. And tell her that if she needs help, with whatever aspect of the game, that you are willing to do so. Most important, don't belittle her, even with the best intentions. Just tell her that you are there to help her if she needs it and allow her to try and find it out herself. To explain it I'll quote Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw: "(..)It might be a very pretty and well executed kick in the balls, but at the end of the day you're still walking funny."

Be there for her questions, support her and reassure her that it's not hard and that yes, it can be confusing but that you can help her and will answer any and all questions.

[MaxWilson]

Before we go about our way to simplify and potentially take the fun out of some and/or certain dnd aspects, will we please take a moment to identify the person in question's deficiency in math? Math has so many aspects and different techniques that it would be nigh impossible to be bad at all of them. simple addition, subtraction and recognising maximal and minimal values should be simple enough for anyone. The more complex avenues of math only come to call when trying to optimise damage or potential for certain customisation options.

My impression from the OP was that she's not so much bad at math per se as simply uninterested in it for its own sake. Apparently she has a bit of an impression of D&D as very fiddly and numbers-centric, and is trying to make the point that she's not in it for that kind of thing. That was what I got out of the OP, anyway.

If so, the solution is to allow her to concentrate on the parts of the game which excite her. Tolerate her desire to do awesome stuff instead of optimized stuff, etc.


As long as she's not planning to optimise for DPR or argue with people on the Internet, I can't see why she'd need much in the way of maths. Quick mental arithmetic is impressive (c.f. Chris Perkins) but unnecessary and can be completely obviated through electronic dice rollers.

Just as importantly, if she decides she wants to fight with two weapons because it's cool, please nobody point out to her how "bad" two-weapon fighting is and how much more damage GWM would do as soon as she hits 5th level.

[JakOfAllTirades]

One way to cut down on math during play is to run a caster with lots of spells that require saving throws instead of attack rolls. You just pick a spell to cast and let your victims worry about whether they made their rolls. Or not.

[Socratov]

I may be starting a campaign with my wife. She wants to take more intrest in the things I enjoy since I've done the same for her. She is worried about her lack of math skills. What might be the things I or dm or she can do to make this a non issue or her to have maximum fun or alleviate her fears? She hasn't played before. What advice does the female gamers out there have for her (separate from the math issue I'm not suggesting women are bad at math in any context)?


My impression from the OP was that she's not so much bad at math per se as simply uninterested in it for its own sake. Apparently she has a bit of an impression of D&D as very fiddly and numbers-centric, and is trying to make the point that she's not in it for that kind of thing. That was what I got out of the OP, anyway.

If so, the solution is to allow her to concentrate on the parts of the game which excite her. Tolerate her desire to do awesome stuff instead of optimized stuff, etc.


quoted for above. Going by the sentiment expressed as written (as we cannot divine her true thoughts behind that statement) she fears she needs to do math to be able to play. Which would be only true of you are trying to mathematically pick the better options on stuff like DPR or damage evaded per round, or number of enemies disabled or somesuch.

So, I'm suggesting that OP calms her down about her fears, offering to help where needed and allows her to discover for herself what the stuff is that would be hard for her and to help in those aspects.

[MaxWilson]

So, I'm suggesting that OP calms her down about her fears, offering to help where needed and allows her to discover for herself what the stuff is that would be hard for her and to help in those aspects.

Yes, I agree with the general prescription here.

I'll go a little bit further and suggest that the OP find out which of the eight kinds of fun (http://angrydm.com/2014/01/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/) appeal to his wife.

[ImSAMazing]

This is a bit too much "women want simple and interesting ideas". I think you don't mean it that way, but it just doesn't sound right

It is clearly not. He is just giving advice that is useful, because for new players you should keep it simple and interesting. It also doesn't sound right, because it is text on a computer screen, not words spoken in a video. :smallcool:

[Foxhound438]

likely just bring a calculator and it'd be fine.

[Kane0]

I may be starting a campaign with my wife. She wants to take more intrest in the things I enjoy since I've done the same for her. She is worried about her lack of math skills. What might be the things I or dm or she can do to make this a non issue or her to have maximum fun or alleviate her fears? She hasn't played before. What advice does the female gamers out there have for her (separate from the math issue I'm not suggesting women are bad at math in any context)?

Regular 5e is pretty easy on the head compared to other editions. Its largely d20 + Number on your sheet, and that number rarely changes nor are there many modifiers (cover being the most common). Another neat thing is that almost all bonuses you receive to rolls (like advantage and bless) add dice rather than numbers, so you simply have them sitting with your d20 to remind you to roll them too.

- Ensure comfort. She needs to feel like she can speak up and walk away if she wants to. It's OK if its not her cup of tea, you appreciate her giving it a try anyway.
- Baby steps. Just like initiating anyone into RPGs, don't start with a grand masterpiece of a campaign, that'll just be intimidating. Get her feet wet with the basics then move on
- Socialization. Its a social game, bring in people to meet and play with. Make her feel like a respected member of the group, not the new guy.
- Personal touch. Don't just build a character for her, ask her what she'd be interested in being. Get her her own dice and mini(s), a sense of attachment does wonders for involvement.
- Fun. Don't sweat that she's making an unoptimised or poor decision, be happy that shes choosing what to do in the first place. Ensure that she feels like she can do things in and out of game, not just sit there taking advice and doing what she's told. The goal is to have her come back next session, not win the current one.